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Helical Nightmares
Apr 30, 2009
Skulls for the Skull Throne...or towers in this case.



Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOz7a2oEgrQ

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/feeding-gods-hundreds-skulls-reveal-massive-scale-human-sacrifice-aztec-capital

quote:

Feeding the gods: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

By Lizzie Wade

The priest quickly sliced into the captive's torso and removed his still-beating heart. That sacrifice, one among thousands performed in the sacred city of Tenochtitlan, would feed the gods and ensure the continued existence of the world.

Death, however, was just the start of the victim's role in the sacrificial ritual, key to the spiritual world of the Mexica people in the 14th to the 16th centuries.

Priests carried the body to another ritual space, where they laid it face-up. Armed with years of practice, detailed anatomical knowledge, and obsidian blades sharper than today's surgical steel, they made an incision in the thin space between two vertebrae in the neck, expertly decapitating the body. Using their sharp blades, the priests deftly cut away the skin and muscles of the face, reducing it to a skull. Then, they carved large holes in both sides of the skull and slipped it onto a thick wooden post that held other skulls prepared in precisely the same way. The skulls were bound for Tenochtitlan's tzompantli, an enormous rack of skulls built in front of the Templo Mayor—a pyramid with two temples on top. One was dedicated to the war god, Huitzilopochtli, and the other to the rain god, Tlaloc.

Eventually, after months or years in the sun and rain, a skull would begin to fall to pieces, losing teeth and perhaps even its jaw. The priests would remove it to be fashioned into a mask and placed in an offering, or use mortar to add it to two towers of skulls that flanked the tzompantli. For the Aztecs—the larger cultural group to which the Mexica belonged—those skulls were the seeds that would ensure the continued existence of humanity. They were a sign of life and regeneration, like the first flowers of spring.

But the Spanish conquistadors who marched into Tenochtitlan in 1519 saw them differently. For them, the skulls—and the entire practice of human sacrifice—evinced the Mexica's barbarism and justified laying waste to the city in 1521. The Spanish tore down the Templo Mayor and the tzompantli in front of it, paved over the ruins, and built what would become Mexico City. And the great rack and towers of skulls passed into the realm of historical mystery.



quote:

Some conquistadors wrote about the tzompantli and its towers, estimating that the rack alone contained 130,000 skulls. But historians and archaeologists knew the conquistadors were prone to exaggerating the horrors of human sacrifice to demonize the Mexica culture. As the centuries passed, scholars began to wonder whether the tzompantli had ever existed.

Archaeologists at the National Institute of Anthropology and History (INAH) here can now say with certainty that it did.
Beginning in 2015, they discovered and excavated the remains of the skull rack and one of the towers underneath a colonial period house on the street that runs behind Mexico City's cathedral. (The other tower, they suspect, lies under the cathedral's back courtyard.) The scale of the rack and tower suggests they held thousands of skulls, testimony to an industry of human sacrifice unlike any other in the world. Now, archaeologists are beginning to study the skulls in detail, hoping to learn more about Mexica rituals and the postmortem treatment of the bodies of the sacrificed. The researchers also wonder who the victims were, where they lived, and what their lives were like before they ended up marked for a brutal death at the Templo Mayor.

"This is a world of information," says archaeologist Raùl Barrera Rodríguez, director of INAH's Urban Archaeology Program and leader of the team that found the tzompantli. "It's an amazing thing, and just the kind of discovery many of us had hoped for," agrees John Verano, a bioarchaeologist at Tulane University in New Orleans, Louisiana, who studies human sacrifice. He and other researchers hope the skulls will clarify the role of large-scale human sacrifice in Mexica religion and culture—and whether, as scholars suspect, it played a key part in building their empire.

The discovery of the tzompantli began the same way all the Urban Archaeology Program's digs do: with a planned construction project in the heart of downtown Mexico City. Whenever someone wants to build in a seven-block area around the Templo Mayor, Barrera Rodríguez's team must excavate first, salvaging whatever remains of the colonial and especially Mexica city beneath. The finds are often significant and surprisingly intact. The Templo Mayor itself came to light in the 1970s, when INAH archaeologists were called in after city electrical workers stumbled on an imposing circular statue of the goddess Coyolxauhqui, who was killed and dismembered by her brother Huitzilopochtli.



quote:

Much of the temple had survived to be discovered. The Mexica built it in seven phases between 1325 and 1521, each corresponding to the reign of a king. Each phase was built over and around the earlier ones, embedding the Templo Mayor's history within it like a set of Russian nesting dolls. Although the Spanish destroyed the temple's final phase, the smaller temples from earlier reigns were paved over but left relatively unscathed. Those ruins are now part of the Templo Mayor Museum. But many structures that surrounded the ruins remained hidden beneath the dense colonial city—and now, the modern megalopolis.

So when Barrera Rodríguez got the call to excavate a site just a few buildings down from where Guatemala Street dead-ends into the Templo Mayor complex, he knew the dig could lead to a major discovery. Starting in February 2015, his team dug about 20 test pits, unearthing modern debris, colonial porcelain, and, finally, the basalt slabs of a Mexica period floor. Then, he remembers, "Hundreds of skull fragments began to appear." In more than 2 decades of excavating in downtown Mexico City, he had never seen anything like it.

Barrera Rodríguez and INAH archaeologist and field supervisor Lorena Vázquez Vallín knew from colonial maps of Tenochtitlan that the tzompantli, if it existed, could be somewhere near their dig. But they weren't sure that's what they were seeing until they found the postholes for the skull rack. The wooden posts themselves had long since decayed, and the skulls once displayed on them had shattered—or been purposely crushed by the conquistadors. Still, the size and spacing of the holes allowed them to estimate the tzompantli's size: an imposing rectangular structure, 35 meters long and 12 to 14 meters wide, slightly larger than a basketball court, and likely 4 to 5 meters high. From their knowledge of the eras of the Templo Mayor, archaeologists estimate that the particular phases of the tzompantli they found were likely built between 1486 and 1502, although human sacrifice had been practiced in Tenochtitlan since its founding in 1325.

There is a great map in the original article showing a blowup of the Templo Mayor and the estimated 36 meter long skull racks, yes that's plural, called the tzompantli.

quote:

Nearby, the researchers also found skulls apparently stuck together with mortar—remnants of one of the towers flanking the tzompantli, where most skulls once exhibited on its posts ended their postmortem journey. The team spent a second season, from October 2016 to June 2017, excavating the tzompantli and the tower. At its largest, the tower was nearly 5 meters in diameter and at least 1.7 meters tall. Combining the two historically documented towers and the rack, INAH archaeologists now estimate that several thousand skulls must have been displayed at a time.

Other Mesoamerican cultures also engaged in human sacrifice and built tzompantlis. But, "The Mexica certainly brought this to an extreme," says Vera Tiesler, a bioarchaeologist at the Autonomous University of Yucatán in Mérida, Mexico. In her work at the Mayan city of Chichen Itza, founded some 700 years before Tenochtitlan and more than 1000 kilometers away, she found six skulls with holes in their sides that she suspects were once displayed on the posts of a tzompantli. However, the holes in each skull were less regular and uniform than those in the Tenochtitlan skulls. "That makes me think it was not a standardized practice yet," she says. "Tenochtitlan was the maximum expression [of the tzompantli tradition]."

Human sacrifice occupied a particularly important place in Mesoamerica. Many of the region's cultures, including the Maya and the Mexica, believed that human sacrifice nourished the gods. Without it, the sun would cease to rise and the world would end. And sacrificial victims earned a special, honored place in the afterlife.

Ritual killings in traditional cultures elsewhere in the world, including Asia and Europe, point to additional roles for the practice, and may help explain why the Mexica took it to such an extreme. "All premodern societies make some kind of offering," Verano says. "And in many societies, if not all, the most valuable sacrifice is human life." Social scientists who study religion have shown that costly offerings and painful rituals, such as the bloodletting ceremonies the Mexica also practiced, can help define and strengthen group identity—especially in societies that have grown too large for everyone to know everyone else.



...

quote:

Over two seasons of excavations, INAH archaeologists collected 180 mostly complete skulls from the tower as well as thousands of skull fragments. Now, those finds sit in a lab next to the Templo Mayor ruins, being painstakingly examined by a team led by INAH anthropologist Jorge Gómez Valdés. Cut marks on the skulls leave no doubt they were defleshed after death, and the decapitation technique appears clean and uniform. "[Mexica priests] had extremely impressive anatomical knowledge, which was passed down from generation to generation," Chávez Balderas says.

Gomóz Valdás found that about 75% of the skulls examined so far belonged to men, most between the ages of 20 and 35—prime warrior age. But 20% were women, and 5% belonged to children. Most victims seemed to be in relatively good health before they were sacrificed. "If they are war captives, they aren't randomly grabbing the stragglers," Gómez Valdés says. The mix of ages and sexes also supports another Spanish claim, that many victims were slaves sold in the city's markets expressly to be sacrificed.

One hell of an archaeological find.

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Sponge Baathist
Jan 30, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
https://everythingskull.com

gary oldmans diary
Sep 26, 2005
we would be wise to worship a god given such sacrifices

Fartbox
Apr 27, 2017
What's happening? Dri fu an only two? what is this?
Is this an avatar? I don't know rm dunk

God made us in his image

God must be one hardcore motherfucker since humans are so utterly barbaric, brutal and savage at our core

Mooey Cow
Jan 27, 2018

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Pillbug
I wonder if the Aztecs, walking among their mountains of skulls and thrones of blood, ever stopped and asked themselves: "Are we the bad guys?"

Fartbox
Apr 27, 2017
What's happening? Dri fu an only two? what is this?
Is this an avatar? I don't know rm dunk

I wonder if americans, who worship machines of death and conflict and are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents ever wonder if they are the bad guys

Fartbox
Apr 27, 2017
What's happening? Dri fu an only two? what is this?
Is this an avatar? I don't know rm dunk

Skulls are cool

put me on skull armor and skullracks instead of a grave tbh

Mooey Cow
Jan 27, 2018

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Pillbug
Americans know they are the bad guys but they don't reflect on it too much, because their central seat of power is called "The White House", not "The Skull Castle".

mike12345
Jul 14, 2008

"Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to answer that. It's one of the great mysteries."





Mooey Cow posted:

Americans know they are the bad guys but they don't reflect on it too much, because their central seat of power is called "The White House", not "The Skull Castle".

he'd probably get more votes with that name

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

Fartbox posted:

God made us in his image

God must be one hardcore motherfucker since humans are so utterly barbaric, brutal and savage at our core

Pretty much every non-Abrahamic religion knows this

Radical 90s Wizard
Aug 5, 2008

~SS-18 burning bright,
Bathe me in your cleansing light~
Even they knew it to begin with

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
Cortez did nothing wrong

Radical 90s Wizard
Aug 5, 2008

~SS-18 burning bright,
Bathe me in your cleansing light~
That skull rack really tied the room together :colbert:

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012


Lipstick Apathy
skeletons are cool

here's a pic of a bunch of rotting buffalo skulls i took recently



they let the elements eat away the flesh and hair and then wash / preserve the skulls and sell 'em for a few hundred bucks a pop

Avynte
Jun 30, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
Cartels just continuing a proud tradition.

Comrayn
Jul 22, 2008

Moridin920 posted:

Cortez did nothing wrong

He killed even more people than the Aztecs were and didn’t even bother to make a cool skull thing. He even destroyed the cool skull tower that was already there. Dude sucks.

Blast of Confetti
Apr 21, 2008

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Comrayn posted:

He even destroyed the cool skull tower that was already there.

what an rear end in a top hat

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Comrayn posted:

He killed even more people than the Aztecs were and didn’t even bother to make a cool skull thing. He even destroyed the cool skull tower that was already there. Dude sucks.

He did have a pretty slick aesthetic though

I bet killing a thousand natives with like two dozen dudes and rifles/cannon feels badass as gently caress bro

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
Maybe their war god just sucks lol


For real though have you seen some of the skull churches in Europe? Way more metal than a tower of crumbling bones.

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jun 25, 2018

Creamed Cormp
Jan 8, 2011

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
Imho it's wrong to judge a religion on the acts of a tiny minority of its believers

Mooey Cow
Jan 27, 2018

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Pillbug

Moridin920 posted:

For real though have you seen some of the skull churches in Europe? Way more metal than a tower of crumbling bones.

Those skeletons died of natural causes though. They were often turned into decoration to make room for more skeletons even.

Comrayn
Jul 22, 2008
I concede conquistadors had a dope style but their crimes against skulls remain.

Blurry Gray Thing
Jun 3, 2009

Mooey Cow posted:

I wonder if the Aztecs, walking among their mountains of skulls and thrones of blood, ever stopped and asked themselves: "Are we the bad guys?"

Honestly, it seems that yeah, kind of?

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Quetzalcoatl posted:

One important body of myths describes Quetzalcóatl as the priest-king of Tula, the capital of the Toltecs. He never offered human victims, only snakes, birds, and butterflies. But the god of the night sky, Tezcatlipoca, expelled him from Tula by performing feats of black magic. Quetzalcóatl wandered down to the coast of the “divine water” (the Atlantic Ocean) and then immolated himself on a pyre, emerging as the planet Venus. According to another version, he embarked upon a raft made of snakes and disappeared beyond the eastern horizon.

Tezcatlipoca (or the Black Tezcatlipoca, since Quetzalcoatl is also called the White Tezcatlipoca) was the chief Aztec God, and the God that absolutely loved dead humans. Quetzacoatl was the nice god of knowledge and healing and life-giving. They created humans together. But Tezcatlipoca eventually betrayed him and that led to his death.

Saying "yeah, the Aztecs basically worshiped the clear-cut villain of their own pantheon" is an oversimplification but seems pretty close to the truth.

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks
Aztec religion is :black101: as gently caress. Where do I sign up?

EagerSleeper
Feb 3, 2010

by R. Guyovich
I remember hearing that the Aztec religion used to be different before a religious/political surge resulted in Huitzilopochtli (the war god) getting instated as the state major god and older religious texts saying otherwise being burnt.

Also heard that the conquistadors got help from the Aztec's neighbors/enemies, because it turned out they all kinda thought the Aztecs, with their capturing of smaller cultures and human sacrifices, were kinda dicks.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006

EagerSleeper posted:

Also heard that the conquistadors got help from the Aztec's neighbors/enemies, because it turned out they all kinda thought the Aztecs, with their capturing of smaller cultures and human sacrifices, were kinda dicks.

Yeah being neighbors to the Aztec meant being a constant state of war since capturing slaves was a way for Aztecs to advance in society.

So they had a big motivation to throw in their lot with a foreign invader and Cortez would have failed without this support.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

Mooey Cow posted:

I wonder if the Aztecs, walking among their mountains of skulls and thrones of blood, ever stopped and asked themselves: "Are we the bad guys?"

Why would they, sacrifice was considered an honorable thing

They werent thinking "yeah, gonna rip tge poo poo out of that heart, fuckin dinkleburgs", the sacrificed were (as per their religion) delaying the end of the world

Pvt.Scott
Feb 16, 2007

What God wants, God gets, God help us all
If I recall correctly, the conquistadors were most threatened by Aztec slingers, as their projectile were much more effective against steel armor than obsidian arrows and swords (which were mostly useless). A stone or bullet could break bones even if it didn’t penetrate. It didn’t hurt that slingers in that era probably had a longer effective range than firearms. Rocks and leather are OP.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
If you read between the lines there's some pretty interesting political manuevering in aztec religion;

Their society likely did not start out as hostile warmongerers, and instead fashioned themselves as balanced intellectuals (the period of worshipping Quetz and Huitz representing the sophistication and barbarism they were capable of)

At some point in time a former leader must have aggressively asserted himself over the nation and steered society towards that of a sustained war machine via progressing the religious story (Huitz/barbarism kills Quetz/intellectualism, he is replaced with the god of rain, likely to appeal to lower class farmers) and burning texts proposing otherwise

By the time the conquistadors arrived, aztec society was likely aware or remorseful of their deeds, as a result aztec elite had further progressed the story in that Huitz now demanded sacrifices to not end the world, and hell if I, Dave Aztec, am gonna rip my heart out

Basically they had their equivalent of a Ronald Raegan or Cheney reshape society ala our own fanatical worship of soldiers and peacekeeping, and they only fell because conquistadors had activated Cheat Mode (disease and armor).

We'd probably be fellating soldiers and bloodlust hardcore if our society hadn't already been hyper divided. Also the internet.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jun 26, 2018

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"
IIRC, part of the human sacrifice ritual for Aztecs was having the person sacrificed live as if the reincarnation of a god. They'd basically live the high life for a year and then get killed in order to keep the world going.

Aztecs were hardcore, much like their whistles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGQ1x5r-LCQ

Unbelievably Fat Man
Jun 1, 2000

Innocent people. I could never hurt innocent people.


Fartbox posted:

I wonder if americans, who worship machines of death and conflict and are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents ever wonder if they are the bad guys

The worst part about being a cog in a massive civilization loving engine of death is we don't even get a cool mountain of skulls. If we're going to be evil we should live it up.

That Robot
Sep 16, 2004

ask me anything about robots
Buglord
Those images own. It's :ok: to the max.

A Bakers Cousin
Dec 18, 2003

by vyelkin
I made a skull shrine in the military. I got in trouble.

mazzi Chart Czar
Sep 24, 2005
I wonder if the Skeletor, walking among their castle of skulls and thrones of blood, ever stopped and asked themselves: "Am I the bad guy?"

That Robot
Sep 16, 2004

ask me anything about robots
Buglord

Moridin920 posted:

He did have a pretty slick aesthetic though

I bet killing a thousand natives with like two dozen dudes and rifles/cannon feels badass as gently caress bro

Smallpox did the hard work for him.

Blue Star
Feb 18, 2013

by FactsAreUseless
I like the Aztecs. They're neato.

Zeluth
May 12, 2001

by Fluffdaddy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LB91kD0Z28

Vaginal Vagrant
Jan 12, 2007

by R. Guyovich

mazzi Chart Czar posted:

I wonder if the Skeletor, walking among their castle of skulls and thrones of blood, ever stopped and asked themselves: "Am I the bad guy?"

Skeletor wishes he had a sweet skull castle. Really it is the sorceress and heman who are the wicked ones, repressing those on the margins of society like the intellectually disabled beastman and that green swamp dude (Irish?!?).

KomodoWagon
May 10, 2013

by R. Guyovich

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Pretty much every non-Abrahamic religion knows this

My man have you even read the Old Testament? God is one evil fucker in that book.

Anyway if my government was spending this many resources slaughtering people and building garish monuments out of their body parts I'd probably want people to vote differently. Might even do some activism on weekends.

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Grevling
Dec 18, 2016


Tired but strong.

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