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GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Edge & Christian posted:

You're not wrong, it also reminds me of a certain strain of Shooterism that was going on in the 1980s, where Marvel took the whole "the world outside your window, with superheroes!" as an excuse to really make things more buttoned-down and "adult" in a way that meant Permanently Writing Out vampires and culling alien races and limiting the use of any sort of secret society/cultures except in very controlled settings. Which actually brings up another quote from my accidental John Byrne Interview Deep Dive from last night:
This was back when he and Claremont and Miller and Stern were big writers at Marvel and generally getting along with each other and Shooter, and the most amazing thing about this is

a) FRAMER'S INTENT John Byrne talking about fixing things the Old Masters did
b) Byrne' point for where Marvel went wrong is somewhere between 1962 and 1967

I never really thought about it before but man, Shooter really did have a “make it real” stance towards the end.

First he went on the “death” kick, where he wanted to kill off a bunch of characters that weren’t doing anything anymore - that’s how Captain Marvel got greenlit to die. He also wanted to kill off a ton of other 1970’s “non-founding” side characters like Shang-Chi.

Second, he did the whole “world outside your window” thing. In the span of like 2 years, Marvel:

1). Got rid of vampires
2). Got rid of the Dire Wraiths
3). Got rid of the Skrull’s shape-changing powers
4). Got Marvel out of the Cosmic realm.

Shooter did a TON during his tenure, and arguably made almost as many character changes then as the current regime has been doing. Spider-Man’s new costume, intelligent hulk followed by grey hulk, Rhodes as Iron Man, She-Hulk in FF....

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GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

irlZaphod posted:

I think it was just a way to shelve her for a little while, the writer who conceived of the plane crash (Howard Mackie) brought her back at the end of his run. I think it was roughly only about 10-15 issues anyway. I started reading around that time also. The whole thing was wrapped up in the Amazing Spider-Man 2001 Annual iirc.

That's kind of what happened, the big watershed moment was after Gwen's death. She visits Peter and he snaps at her because of her party girl lifestyle, and tells her to leave. She turns to do so, but instead closes the door and stays to comfort him. I don't know whether she was written somewhat inconsistently after that, though.

She toned down a little bit after Gwen’s death but was still a party girl. Peter proposed to her not too long after that and she turned him down, then she was gone from the book for a loooong time. When Stern and Defalco brought her back in the mid 80s, they finally gave her some depth and backstory - the whole thing with her parents, her sister, her knowing Peter’s secret - and made her a better character. It was a great combination of “will they/won’t they” and “someone who understands my super hero stuff”.

She really became the strong moral support for Peter, but also really came into her own as a model and independent woman. I think one of my favorite moments was when she secretly had Peter’s apartment redecorated after a fire - it was a great gesture, but also her saying “quit moping around and get your poo poo together” to him.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Codependent Poster posted:

Kraven's Last Hunt

The Gauntlet

Grim Hunt

I'd also say to check out the Brand New Day stuff. There's some ups and downs, but it still pretty much set up Spidey's status that Marvel has kept for 10 years.

Death of Jean DeWolfe
The entire Roger Stern run from the 220s into the 250s
Cosmic Spidey

And if you’re looking for great one off issues...

ASM 267 - “The Commuter” by Peter David
She Hulk vol 3 #5 - he sues JJJ

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Lobok posted:

What about Infinity... Plus One?

Billy, you’re so stupid!

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians
For anyone that hasn’t ever read it, the greatest Captain America story ever written was finally put on Marvel Unlimited today. What If... volume 1 #44 “What If Captain America Was Revived Today?” is an absolute masterpiece and the highlight of the series.

It’s utterly amazing how relevant a story written 36 years ago is to today’s society. Reading it again today made it seem like Peter Gillis had a crystal ball and was writing it for 2019. It’s scary to see the parallels to what’s happening in our country right now and yet inspiring to the see the message of the story. It’s absolute required reading for anyone who loves Cap, and really for anyone who hates what America has become in the past few years.

Just a great book and a great read with great Sal Buscema artwork.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Autism Sneaks posted:

I don't speak Mandarin or any of the other languages of the peoples that have lived within the borders of China but I am 101% sure Fin Fang Foom doesn't mean anything in any of them, nevermind "He Whose Limbs Shatter Mountains and Whose Back Scrapes the Sun". I would expect Waid to know enough to at least quietly keep that tidbit out of HotMU

That’s been canon for a looooong time. Walt Simonson mentions it in the tail end of his run, where the World Serpent disguises himself as FFF. I think it’s just one of those “they say it’s what it means so I guess that’s what it means” kinda translations.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Karma Tornado posted:

I think Marvel still has the rights to the non-Rom content from ROM (the Torpedo/Turbo armor, the Spaceknights, the Wraiths) and the the couple of characters from Micronauts that weren't toys (Bug), but they went out of their way to have Circuit Breaker show up in a book other than TRANSFORMERS first so Hasbro couldn't claim her, so it's probably down to individual contracts, yeah

But the rights thing also leads to hilarious moments like Iron Man 193-194, where they try so hard to use Godzilla without calling him Godzilla. Had the same bad guy from the Godzilla series, set the story in the Pacific Ocean, and had a big green lizard monster with atomic breath. They changed him JUST ENOUGH to get around the copyright but even 7 year old me was like “hey why is Iron Man fighting Godzilla?”

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Dawgstar posted:

ROM is an interesting case because the toy itself had almost no fiction around it. Parker Brothers just... made this toy. I think maybe he was a cyborg? Marvel filled in like every other detail, though.

That was from that weird period where nothing was really working for Marvel except for Star Wars so they just bought up every sci-fi property the could in the hopes of hitting the jackpot again. They had Godzilla, Micronauts, ROM, Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek, 2001 a Space Odyssey, Planet of the Apes, and a ton of other stuff.

ROM was awesome and they almost instantly made him a part of the Marvel Universe. They even had his big bad guys revealed as offshoots of the Skrulls at some point. That’s what made it work so well - they gave him a mythos and integrated him into what they were doing line-wide. It’s why when the revival everyone supposedly wanted happened at another company it flopped - no Spaceknights, no Dire Wraiths, no Hybrid, no nothin

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Karma Tornado posted:

And Marvel still has Machine Man! I'd love to read these deals somewhere.

You wanna talk about character turns... look at Mister Machine as introduced by Jack Kirby in that book, into what he became in his solo series, into his BWS mini series, into the Nextwave iteration.

I think the deal was any original character created in those books was Marvel’s to keep, as long as it wasn’t based on the existing property. I think that’s why, for example, Dr. Demonicus stayed around at Marvel but none of the kaiju could from the Godzilla book. Since “Mister Machine” was a Kirby creation independent of anything from the book or movie, they were all good. It probably helped that it was a property that didn’t exactly lend itself to other media...

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Dreqqus posted:

Isn't that where Wonder Man's Revengers ended up or am I misremembering

I remember being so pissed about this for so many reasons. He just up and made Wonder Man a “violent pacifist” - his whole shctick became “I’ll show how dangerous the avengers are by destroying millions of dollars of public property with a bunch of villains!” and it was horrible. He gave Atlas a heel turn and complete personality makeover out of nowhere, and had that weird Skrull Superman join up to pay society back for beating the Skrull Invasion. Oh, and Bill Foster’s nephew nearly murdering Luke Cage and his wife and daughter despite the fact Luke was on the exact OPPOSITE side that killed Goliath.

The whole thing made zero sense, had zero thought behind it, and ended up with Wonder Man fading away into nothingness again (?)

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Edge & Christian posted:

Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, and Danny Rand pull him out of an alley and patch him up and they are in fact kind of conciliatory towards the situation:

CAGE: What happened was an accident. It's what happens when you do what we do... We've all been there. Sometimes people die. Sometimes it's our fault.
JONES: None of us go out looking for it. None of us are careless. But it happens. And you deal with it, and you move on... because it's part of the job.

Daredevil's response to this is "You're all murderers! We're all murderers!" and he decides he can't be a superhero/vigilante anymore.

Then Spider-Man confronts him (separately) at home, where he tells Matt, "You're a mess. You're in trouble and on a suicide mission. And I'm here to tell you you're done... I'm spreading the word. If any of us see you out there, attempting this, we'll stop you. We have to. Or it could be the end of all of us."

Daredevil agrees, and says he's going to quit being Daredevil.

You can argue if this is good characterization for any of the characters, but it's consistent in the sense that [Nu-Defenders] don't see this as a breaking point, but Spider-Man absolutely does, and those characterizations are consistent across the run.

I remember during Gruenwald’s captain America run, where Cap killed an ULTIMATUM terrorist to save a crowd of people. It happened right before John Walker took over, and was one of the reasons he decided to give it up without a fight. He agonized for a bunch of issues over it, had to make public statements about how he’s not a killer, and had to deal with crazies on both sides of the issues waiter supporting or condemning him. It happened right around the time of Spider-Man vs Wolverine and when Iron Man accidentally killed the Titanium Man and agonized over it. It was a big point by Marvel writers I guess to show how “this guy ain’t the Punisher but he ain’t afraid to kill if he has to!”

Even as a kid I kept thinking “why is Cap freaking out over killing a terrorist who was about to execute dozens of innocent hostages when he was offing Nazis left and right in world war 2?”

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Skwirl posted:

X-Factor is missing important random issues in the first Apocalypse story. Nocenti's Daredevil is mostly missing, and I just found out Harlan Ellison wrote a Daredevil story, and they don't have that either.

They've also slowed down on filling in those gaps, it used to be every single week the "new on Unlimited" would include older stuff and now months will go by without anything new.

This has been a HUGE complaint for me recently. Up until the lockdowns started, they would throw all sorts of back issues and runs on there every week - usually related to a new storyline, or a movie coming out, or a holiday theme. I looked forward to Monday mornings because it would be like “oh here’s the majority of Englehart’s West Coast Avengers run” or “wow they actually put up the 5 issues of Tigra in Marvel Chillers!” But it’s been weeks and weeks now since they actually did this :(

I’m hoping they’re saving it for the next few months, when the weekly “new” output was next to noting because of the lockdowns, but I don’t have a lot of faith. It really is a great concept and loaded with great comics, but the gaps are weird. nocenti’s Daredevil run really needs to be on there, and I REALLY wish they’d scan in the letter pages with the titles.

Side note - the “new this week” titles included a Facsimile Edition of a Thor issue. Turns out it was reprinted because it contained a quarter-page ad in the letter column announcing Wolverine’s first appearance. That’s just.... bizarre.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Wanderer posted:

Yeah, Tony having a seemingly inexhaustible well of copies of his older armors is, for whatever reason, a decades-old trait.

The first Iron Man comic I ever bought was #159, from 1982, where he's fighting the old FF villain Diablo the alchemist. At one point, Diablo turns a good half-dozen of Tony's old suits into golems and sends them after him, so he's forced to trash every last one.

And then like a year and a half later when Rhodey took over, a ton of the old suits got dumped into the ocean and stolen by Krang for his army. The amount of suits he has and their whereabouts change like every 5 minutes and always have.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Skwirl posted:

Oh, looks like Marvel Unlimited just added a huge chunk of Nocenti's Daredevil. Still missing whatever was immediately after Born Again. Born Again ends in issue 233, then it has #238, then skips to 252. Looks like they have everything from 252 on now at least.

So happy about this!

Now if they can just fill in the massive gaps on Spectacular Spider-man and Web of Spider-Man I’ll be happy. It’s insane how their flagship character is missing SO MUCH of the 80s and 90s runs....

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Gaz-L posted:

Unlimited is weird with the gaps. Like obviously ROM isn't on there, but they haven't added any of the Dark Horse Conan stuff despite reprinting it in hard copy, nor any of the OG Marvel Conan stuff (and I doubt that's a rights issue, they HAVE added all the Star Wars back catalogue), and even things you'd assume were on there because of MCU connection are weirdly incomplete, like a bunch of missing Sensational She-Hulk.

I know I’ve said that before but the amount of stuff missing on there floors me. They used to do a big load of back-catalog stuff every week, but that stopped months ago. They are missing HUGE chunks of Web of Spider-Man and Spectacular Spider-Man, almost all of Solo Avengers/Avengers Spotlight, a bunch of Daredevil and She-Hulk, nearly all of Marvel Comics Presents.....

It’s very odd that the entire run of Tigra in Marvel Chillers and all 4 issues of friggin Brute Force are up there but not a good chunk of the Conway/Buscema Spectacular Spider-Man or most of the Gerber She-Hulk

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Dawgstar posted:

If you've got, say, Marvel Unlimited it's well worth the time seeking out some of the listed Daredevil stories. There's a great bit in Inferno where Matt out of costume and a bunch of people are trapped in the subway tunnels which have no power and thus no lights because of demon shenangians and essentially goes "I'm a blind man! Follow me!" Also I think somebody fights a demon-possessed vacuum at one point.

So many of those Inferno “tie-ins” were amazing because of how silly they made it. In Avengers, captain America and Jarvis (!) fought a car and a phone booth. Daredevil got strangled by appliances. Spider-Man fought a demon-possessed Daily Bugle alongside a baseball-bat-wielding JJJ and then teamed up with the Green Goblin to fight a factory.

The various writers seemed to say “look if I have to put this triangle on the cover I’m at least going to have fun with it” and it showed.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Zombie Dachshund posted:

She was pretty awesome in the X-Men Brood Saga, so... maybe?

I just got done re-reading those issues as part of my Claremont X-Men binge and yeah, she was badass in those issues. You can tell Claremont actually loved the character and wanted to redeem her. He made her extremely powerful and gave her a commanding presence it it felt earned.

She’s with the x-men for a good year plus, and only leaves because of Rogue. They offer Carol membership despite not being a mutant and she wants to join (and almost does!). Then they offer membership to Rogue in order to help her redeem herself and she pretty much says “yeah the crazy lady that almost killed me, stole my mind and powers, and ruined my life? gently caress all y’all I’m going to hang with the Starjammers”. Once she leaves earth in that issue, she’s pretty much completely off the map until Claremont brings her back to fight Rogue almost a decade later.

Unless you count her personality emerging from Rogue for a few issues, or Wolverine bringing a hallucination of her to life to beat Psylocke and the Mandarin. Oh Chris.....

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Lurdiak posted:

Every time I think of Bendis and Carol I think of this panel.



This is followed by a panel of her thinking "that hurt my feelings!" and Spider-woman reassuring her that she's not fat.

I’ll take “Writers who do not understand Doom AT ALL”. for $500, Alex.

Re-reading his run now, I kinda can’t believe they handed him the keys to the kingdom for almost a decade.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Splint Chesthair posted:

Gruenwald expanded the roster to include analogues of practically every Satellite Era Justice Leaguer in the 1980s miniseries, but Roy Thomas created the original team and their JLA-knock-off status while he was writing Avengers.

And then it got even more complicated when the JLA writer Mike Friedrich introduced the Champions of Angor shortly thereafter. They were Silver Sorceress (scarlet witch), Blue Jay (Yellowjacket), Jack B Quick (Quicksilver), and Wandjina (Thor). They had about 0% of the lasting power Squadron Supreme had tho.

Seriously, if anyone hasn’t read the Mark Gruenwald Squadron Supreme 12 issues series from the mid 80s, it’s all up on Unlimited. Great series and way ahead of its time.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Ponsonby Britt posted:

Keep reading!

I was just gonna tell him the same - better strap in for the Morlocks.

I’m in the same boat - I read X-Men classic as a kid so I knew the Dark Phoenix Saga, and I picked up the regular titles for the first time during Inferno, but I never read much of what was in-between outside of a few issues. I decided late last year to start up with #150 and go straight through until Claremont was booted off, and it was a wild ride. When you get to the post “force everyone into the Seige Perilous” stories, tho, the whole thing kinda falls off a cliff. I used to think they did Chris dirty, but letting him go at that point was a mercy killing.

Reading it all in a “binge” format REALLY drives home what Claremont likes. BDSM, de-aging, death and resurrection, “tough” one-on-one confrontational conversations, body swapping/molding/disfiguring, and the word “caper”. Holy hell, I swear he has to say it at least once an issue. And MAN did he love Psylocke from the start. Once he was able to get her into the book she was the clear favorite - and the replacement for Storm in the “how do we get her naked or barely clothed as often possible” category.

Also, Paul Smith was such a great fit for that book and so was early-in-his-career JRJr.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Pastry of the Year posted:

When I was a kid, I didn't read Spectacular or Web* because I only had so much money for comics and I'd gotten it into my head that Amazing was the "real" and therefore "best" Spider-Man to be read. I missed out on some really good stuff, but it was a treat to go back and binge-read it all.

*Unless I got the odd issue in a three-pack.

I was kinda the same way, but Web and Spectacular in the mid-to-late 80s were kind of a hit-or-miss mess until Gerry Conway took over. Peter David had a cool run on Spectacular but the real treasure is the early 80s run of Mantlo/Milgrom. Lot of great street-level crime stuff with the Black Cat, Cloak and Dagger, the Punisher, and the kingpin.
L

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

El Gallinero Gros posted:

Is Conway the best Spider-Man writer?

Yes and it’s not even close. Between his Amazing and Spectacular in the 70s and his return to Spectacular in the 80s and 90s, he’s far and away the best.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

bobkatt013 posted:

Where would you put stern?

Maybe “not even close” was an exaggeration. I love Lee’s stories and he obviously set the tone, but I feel Conway had a better overall body of work. The Stan Lee stuff can sometimes get a bit repetitive and comes off a bit dated sometimes. I’d put him and Stern right behind Conway.

Roger Stern is my all time favorite Avengers writer and isn’t far off from Conway, but he wasn’t allowed to stick around as long unfortunately. The Hobgoblin stuff was fantastic and the Juggernaut 2-parter was an all-timer.

I just have a soft spot for Conway’s Spectacular work and he also wrote “The Night Gwen Stacy Died”, which is one of my absolute favorites.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Edge & Christian posted:

The only interview with Gillen where it discusses him "not being able to use" Patriot/Eli is this 2013 Comics Alliance one where the interviewer mentions how "you've said Eli Bradley is earmarked by someone else". At the time of the interview/publication of Gillen/McKelvie Young Avengers, Morales was still alive, so it's possible that the behind-the-scenes stuff shifted from "Morales was in talks to do a Truth II or something" to "Morales's estate is suing Marvel", or it could have been a Heinberg thing -- the Young Avengers were largely in limbo/vamping status for the period between the end of the first Young Avengers series and Childrens Crusade in part because Heinberg/Cheung were going to be coming back "soon" to do their follow-up series.

It's all pretty suspicious, though they also never (to my knowledge) pulled any of the collections/digital editions of the Isiah/Eli Bradley comics or stopped including him in flashback panels to Young Avengers stories or stopped mentioning them in handbooks, so that would be a change from other characters who get completely memory-holed during rights battles. Though again, looking it up for other characters:

Rom's appearance in Incredible Hulk #296 can be purchased digitally/read on Unlimited, and is also available in print as part of a trade collecting the Bill Mantlo run.
Rom's appearance in Power Man & Iron Fist #73 is conspicuously absent from Comixology, which has issues #50-72 and #74-107 available, then #121 because it's part of Secret Wars II (PM&IF was only the title from issues #50-125)
Rom's appearance in Marvel Two-In-One #99 is nowhere to be found digitally, but they also haven't digitized that series up to the 88th issue at the moment.

Godzilla never officially appeared outside of the Godzilla comic during Marvel's initial run, so that wasn't any help.

The Hulk issue is a weird one because the issue is TECHNICALLY up on there, but in an abbreviated form. The “cover” they show is just a random panel from the issue. They do a cropped “synopsis” of the part of the story involving Rom without showing him or using his name, then go on to the rest of the story that doesn’t have him.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Edge & Christian posted:

Weird! Is that part of the trade?

Because the full comic including the ROM featuring cover appears to be for sale on Comixology.

I think Comixology can do that full issue because they have IDW comics on there, and that’s who currently has the license? I’m just throwing darts here, no idea if that’s the case or not.

Here’s the cover from Marvel Unlimited. I’m pretty sure the whole issue was skipped in the Epic Collection as well.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Edge & Christian posted:

I don't think that's how licenses work, there would be a lot more stuff on Comixology if the principle is "one of the companies that has a contract with Amazon owns this, so go nuts!"

I'm starting to think that they're just not paying super close attention, the 2017 Epic Collection also has the full cover/issue with Rom.

Like I said, I was just throwing darts - I’m by no means a right expert. I think we can both agree, tho, that Marvel Unlimited has some reallllllllllly weird quirks to it :)

I just want my drat Web of Spider-Man and Spectacular Spider-Man put up there!! There’s huge chunks missing and I’m wanting to do an 80s re-read of all the titles.

Speaking of which - I just reread the Hobgoblin issue (289) this weekend and it brought back to mind something that always threw me off. For like 8 issues prior, Pete was wondering why he was suddenly so jealous of MJ hanging out with other guys and why he felt so awkward hanging around her. You knew it was leading to something, but you didn’t know what, because he still had the Black Cat around. 289 (the Peter David “hey can you write us an ending to this 5 year saga that four writers built up this weekend with no context whatsoever?” Issue) ends with Peter and Felicia in his apartment and it’s heavily implied they got down and dirty again. All of a sudden, the next issue starts Dave Michelene’s run and he up and proposes to MJ with no real warning

Even as a 10 year kid, I thought that was waaaaayyyyy too fast and weird, considering he was JUST with Felicia. I know the whole Hobgoblin ending was a disjointed disaster, and the wedding thing HAD to be rushed because of the newspaper wedding, but I feel like someone should have just eliminated the last 2-3 pages of 289 to make any of it make sense. Instead it goes from “I get a funny feeling around MJ” to “better nail the Black Cat again to thank her for a new costume” to “hey MJ let’s get married ASAP” in less than 3 issues.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

How Wonderful! posted:

I cannot believe Ace is back. Also I have no clue who the guy on the last page was but I bet when I find out I'll be like ahhhhh should have known.

Wait
Wait
WAIT

Ace??? This guy??? He’s back???



This was one of the first Spider-Man comics I remember buying new off the rack!! I am beyond stoked about this.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Android Blues posted:

I think in a vacuum the idea of the Ultimates as "the Avengers, but with the moral turpitude that a government-sponsored superteam backed by an unaccountable intelligence agency high on the advent of the Patriot Act might realistically have" isn't a bad one, and I like some parts of Ultimates 1 and 2. I think that vibe really quickly became a series of faded mimeographs from "commentary on the Bush administration's heroic affectations" into "dark, cynical heroes with questionable morals are cool!", though.

That’s the issue I had with it when I did a re-read last year. The basic concept is solid: this is how super heroes would be in the modern age - regulated, no secret identity trappings, treated like rock stars, and mired in politics. The problem is Millar wrote it, so it quickly devolves into “LOOK HOW loving BADASS THIS IS MOTHERFUCKER!!!! THIS AINT YO MAMA’S AVENGERS, YOU PUSSY!!”

Hitch’s artwork saves a lot of it, and it’s still a readable story, but it’s really dated and not just because of the cultural references.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Gripweed posted:

I liked the part of Ultimate Final Fantasy I read because it was fun space adventures. I really liked the idea that Reed intentionally made the family celebrities so the general public would accept Ben. Eventually the Greg Land art was too much and I stopped reading, but apparently that saved me from reading the incel parts so that worked out OK.

But on the other hand I didn't enjoy Ultimate Spider-Man. It came very highly recommended so I read a lot of it, but it was just not a fun read. It focused so much on how miserable being Spider-Man made Peter Parker, how it just completely hosed his life up. And instead of being it's own thing it felt like a mad dash to establish Ultimate versions of the major Spider-Man villains which were across the board worse than the regular versions.

Part of what I didn’t like about Ultimate Spider-Man is what I don’t like about the MCU Spider-Man - he has very little of the independence or competence that the main universe Spidey has. Part of the greatness of Stan Lee’s stories came from Peter being on his own, learning as he went, and using Spider-man time as a way to vent his problems. He Ultimate and MCU version comes off as a doofus who can’t function without Nick Fury or Tony Stark over his shoulder every 8 seconds

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

X-O posted:

That is not how Ultimate Spider-Man is at all. Fury is almost never around. In fact he makes it a point to tell Peter he's on his own until he's 18 because at that point he's under his jurisdiction. Cap is around for the very end but that's what ends up getting Peter killed.

Maybe I’m conflating the two then. It’s been a while since I’ve read USM all the way through, maybe it’s time to revisit

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Edge & Christian posted:

It goes back further than that and encompasses the majority of the original Ultimate X-Men run. When Millar left (issue 33) Bendis was planning on writing 6-12 issues with David Mack before handing the book off Mack. Then the idea of Singer* taking over the book happened and Mack was out.

Bendis ended up writing UXM #34-45 solo, by which point they'd decided that Singer could write the book with assists from Brian K. Vaughn, who was slated to write four issues to give Singer time to come on with UXM #50, but after four issues he was still busy, so BKV wrote #50-60 solo too. Singer was still too busy, and they asked Vaughn to write another year or so of the book while waiting on Singer but he declined, wrote his last arc (#61-64) to tie up loose ends and moved on.

So then they asked Kirkman to come in for the same gig (write solo until Singer is ready). One three issue arc turned into three three issues arcs, which then just turned into Kirkman writing the book for two and a half years.

So basically one of Marvel's big books was in a holding pattern waiting for Bryan Singer from issue 34 (June 2003) until issue 93 (April 2008), or just under 60% of its total run. Kirkman only left because they were giving all of the non-Spider-Man Ultimate comics to Jeph Loeb's weed carriers from Heroes in the MARCH ON ULTIMATUM.


* the original idea was that it would be written by Bryan Singer, Dan Harris, and Mike Dougherty with the latter two presumably doing the heavy lifting.

And don’t forget this was on top of the delays with the book from the very beginning! UXM was supposed to launch before USM almost a year prior , to coincide with the X-Men movie, but they couldn’t get Bendis to write it and Spider-Man together. They finally had to settle on Millar, so they lost THAT movie synergy as well.

Miller’s run on UXM was more toned down than the Ultimates and it ended up being a pretty good read for the most part.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

site posted:

Ultimates 1 was decent and interesting at the time but, and this is obviously a low bar, I remember coming away thinking the post ultimatum ultimate avengers, new ultimates, and hickman's ultimate comics (what a stupid rebrand) ultimates were better. They just don't seem to enter the conversation that much

Ultimate Comics Ultimates maybe one of the clunkiest and most awkward comic titles ever.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Party Boat posted:

Fraction's Hawkeye run was one of the first things I read when I got an Unlimited sub and yeah it basically stands alone from everything else. There are a couple of characters from other comics but their deal is always explained in a way that doesn't assume prior knowledge. It's mostly just a story about an idiot guy who shoots a bow and his good good dog.

Last night I read the first few issues of Incredible Hulk (1962) and was surprised by how much I enjoyed them. They're just pure sci fi pulp and there's a fantastic purity about that. I'm not sure if I'll read the full run of Tales to Astonish or just skip to where the Hulk gets reintroduced but I like the idea of slowly reading my way through Hulk history.

Those first 6 issues of Hulk are batshit crazy and really fun to read. Stan and Jack had no idea what they wanted to do with the character so they changed the premise every issue. One issue he only changes at night, then the next he’s the Hulk with Bruce Banner’s brain. He flies in one issue and can’t fly the next. Grey in the first issue, green in the second. Rick Jones has mind control over him at one point. The Hulk had Banner’s head on a Hulk body at one point!! It’s pure silver age sci-fi silliness.

The Astonish run is pretty forgettable until you get towards the halfway point. After that it keeps getting better and really takes off when he gets his own title again. There’s honestly not a prolonged bad run up until Peter David got a little too cutesy in the mid 90s, but it bounces back quick. 70s and 80s Hulk is always a fun read and there’s seemingly a guest star or new villain in every single issue

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians
I grew up as an avid reader of Marvel Age - to the point where I had a subscription for 5 years and actively sought out back issues at shops and shows. One of my favorite parts every month was Fred Hembeck’s 2 page cartoons, which I thought were always hilarious. I also learned about cool new projects Marvel was doing, like the slick looking Marvel Masterworks reprint collections of classic stories, unedited and in chronological order.

If you would have bet me that almost 35 years later, in May of 2021, a Brother Voodoo Marvel Masterworks collection was going to be released, I would have lost every dollar I ever had or ever would earn.

Somewhere, Fred Hembeck is smiling. His long con has finally paid off.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

X-O posted:

Yeah Marvel Age was great. I read a bunch of back issues several years back and always wanted to go back and read them all. Some of the interviews were really good.

One of the earlier issues they did was when Sol Brodsky passed away. Sol was a production manager at Marvel in the 60s and helped keep the wheels turning while Stan did all the up front stuff and wrote dialogue. He never pencilled or wrote or inked a book, he wasn’t the face of the company, and he was only known to real insiders. Yet that issue of Marvel Age devoted over half of its pages to the life and times of Sol Brodsky as told by people who worked with and for him. For me it was my first real exposure to that 60s “bullpen” feel that they always talked about, and it was amazing. Great oral history stuff, great interviews, and a lot of classic artwork. It was truly touching to see how they reacted to his death. It’s a shame that when Kirby passed away in 1994 they barely devoted 2 pages to him.

Marvel Age, until about 1992, was the gateway to EVERYTHING in the marvel universe. Every single book coming out in a given month was listed, along with a plot description and creative team. Every new project and upcoming series, no matter how huge or obscure, was given some hype. They had great interviews and unused artwork and features on books from the past and an ongoing history of the Marvel Universe feature and letters to books that didn’t have letters pages and everything. They had Fred Hembeck cartoons and a calendar of staff members birthdays and 5 page previews of upcoming books and even brought back Forbush Man as an unofficial mascot.

If you really want a good slice of Marvel history, go seek them out. It’s well worth your time.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Skwirl posted:

I love when people who have never read a comic loudly declare they will never buy another comic.

https://twitter.com/drmistercody/status/1411552517226307585?s=20

I love that most of Cap’s history post Stan and Jack has him as a guy who constantly doubts the “American Dream” and doesn’t trust the government, but these people just assume he’s the living embodiment of AMERICA gently caress YEAH

The Englehart run is as anti-American government as it gets, and even Gruenwald spends a large portion of his run showing how Cap isn’t afraid to fight the government and its corruption. Christ, he portrays Reagan as a senile doofus who acts as a puppet who gets turned into a literal snake.

But idiots gotta idiot, I guess.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Skwirl posted:

They still add old books, but they add them later in the week now for some reason rather than on Monday.
Last week they added some old Millie the Model and pre Hellcat Patsy Walker and other poo poo from that era. But those weren't on the New Comics list on Monday. Check on a Saturday if you want to see the new old stuff.

Still loving insane the X books and Spider-Man books aren't loving complete though.

I’m still really pissy that a massive chunk of Web of Spider-Man and a good amount of Spectacular Spider-Man are missing. The X-Factor gaps are almost inexcusable because not only are they a flagship property, they’re some amazing stories by Walt and Louise Simonson! Tons of great Archangel stuff in there, and that incredible Judgement War story.

But thankfully last week we got…. 1 random issue of a bunch of Atlas era teen/romance/comedy books? What the hell???

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Beerdeer posted:

I can't open any of the comics that dropped yesterday in Unlimited. Is anyone else having trouble?

Thank god it’s not just me. I can’t get anything new to open, even after reinstalling the app.

GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Yvonmukluk posted:

Finally figured out how to get new-and-improved Marvel Unlimited working and goddamnit It's Jeff! is perfection. :allears:

The new layout and format is trash. Harder to search for random books, it wiped a lot of my “keep reading” books, and events are no longer organized in a decent way. I seriously regret upgrading.

It’s Jeff is adorable magic, tho 🤩

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GPTribefan
Jul 2, 2007
Something witty yet inspirational about the Cleveland Indians

Edge & Christian posted:

If Nick Spencer Wasn't Forced to Cut His Spider-Man Run Short and Luckily Was Offered Substack Money After Being Forced Out of Marvel, Why Do I Keep Saying He Was?

Spider-Man has had more than one monthly comic book for nearly fifty years (Marvel Team-Up #1 came out in December 1971) and over that half a century, Marvel has repeatedly tried to find a way to make the second/third/sixth Spider-Man book sell as well as "Amazing Spider-Man"

In 2008 they merged everything into "Amazing Spider-Man" with Brand New Day and have largely continued that trend ever since. Sometimes it's weekly, sometimes it's three times a month, sometimes it's just biweekly with a bunch of "Giant Size" or "Point _____" issues. Regardless, 2-4 issues of "Amazing Spider-Man" sells better than one issue of Amazing, one issue of Spectacular, one issue of Sensational, etc. so they keep doing it.

The only time it ever worked was with Adjectiveless Spider-Man, and that was only because of McFarlane. Once he left, it quickly became the 4th tier book.

Spectacular (which underwent like 4 name changes, including the insanely worded “The All-New All Daring Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man) was a big debut but quickly settled in as the sorry sister book to Amazing. They axed Marvel Team-Up in 1985 to clear the way for Web of (and because they ran out of ways to team Spidey up without rehashing characters and the book wasn’t selling well anymore), and it was always the third-tier book.

The only time I remember Web and SSM being as big a deal as Amazing was during Kraven’s Last Hunt and Life in the Mad Dog Ward, and that was only because they all tied into each other. Other than that, SSM was Gerry and Sal doing grittier stories and Web was leftover poo poo with some decent Salicrup/Saviuk stories around it.

I would much rather buy a weekly Spider-Man book with a consistent rotation of teams and a continuing narrative then 4 different books of varying quality.

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