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Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



I can't remember if it was a tolerable bit on Ballistic Radio or one on Practically Tactical that made me want to cut my own wrists, but I caught a line from Chuck Haggard a month or so back that stuck with me. It was a variation of a concept I'd been toying with and went roughly along the lines of, "if people are being honest, they may just carry a couple snubs and a fixed blade knife." The thinking seeming to be that snubs work adequately at the ranges seen in most defensive gun uses, have merit in a hosed up tangle, a blade would also do well to create distance, and the second gun could be positioned to allow access in alternate positions where the primary may be stuffed or even just to the weak hand. Some of that utility added over one, larger handgun.

My thoughts prior had more related to my less-lethal tools. I carry an ASP Key Defender to always have OC/pocket stick on me. I also tend to prefer a medium or fullsize auto for my belt gun. But the OC or a stick are more likely to be useful as low level encounters are far more common than lethal ones. What if I downsized the gun and used the reduced load to justify beefing up my less-lethal. Particularly with one having more range and/or capacity. A Taser's potential for an instant physiological stop out to 15 feet (more realistically 10 feet with mine) is appealing. My JPX can deliver two spicy treats out to 24 feet. The stream can of Fox 5.3 carries an ounce and a half of liquid pain in a stream that is less wind sensitive and longer ranged than my little 3-5 foot keychain spray. My 16" ASP can pop out windows, pry a dog's jaws, be used as a perfectly good pocket stick, or hit someone harder than my key fob. A sap never stopped being a very good tool.

So, what if I drop to a full-time pocket rocket carried appendix or pocketed and put a concerted effort into packing a more ranged less-lethal? I need to tweak my AIWB design for the Taser Pulse and try out a Mk II prototype, anyway. Also need to press a replacement for the stolen crossdraw AIWB to my JPX. I've deployed the expandable baton that I carry to and from work more regularly than I have ever felt the need to pre-stage a firearm. gently caress it, going to spend the month of July playing with this idea.



What if it even encourages me to return to my old habit of packing a back-up gun? Well, not so much as a BUG but rather a hand-off. The day I had a low-recoil snub and needed to hand it off to my wife was dumb luck. She'd be far less able to handle a mid-size forty.

As usual, feel free to dogpile. It's a thought experiment and I enjoy other perspectives.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Jun 29, 2018

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madeintaipei
Jul 13, 2012



Well, that seems like a bunch of juggling.
Is it like, "Just grab the closest tool", can you discriminate through an escalation, as to what you will use? Can you make that decision quic- RIGHTNOWWHATTHEFUCKAREYOUDOINGTHATDIDNTWORKGRABTHENEXTTHINGANDUSEIT?

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



More like dude's being an unsafe rear end. Spice or tase and move on with life before it gets worse. Or being more likely to spice someone than shoot them so why not make my OC effective further out so I'm not required to be within literal spitting distance of a belligerent versus my current EDC spray.

I'm also not considering a full bat belt. Rather farting around to see if a compact Taser, beefy OC, or maybe a plain old metal stick to accompany a smaller gun leaves me feeling more well rounded than a larger firearm with a teeny less-lethal. Or if standardizing on a smaller gun leaves me with more open options in the less-lethal slot to strap on whatever makes most sense for the day. Shifting my focus from a firearm to weapons more likely to come in handy to see if maybe I've been putting the cart before the horse with my big gun and big spare mag while toting a minimally serviceable OC.

madeintaipei
Jul 13, 2012



Butch Cassidy posted:

More like dude's being an unsafe rear end. Spice or tase and move on with life before it gets worse. Or being more likely to spice someone than shoot them so why not make my OC effective further out so I'm not required to be within literal spitting distance of a belligerent versus my current EDC spray.

I'm also not considering a full bat belt. Rather farting around to see if a compact Taser, beefy OC, or maybe a plain old metal stick to accompany a smaller gun leaves me feeling more well rounded than a larger firearm with a teeny less-lethal. Or if standardizing on a smaller gun leaves me with more open options in the less-lethal slot to strap on whatever makes most sense for the day. Shifting my focus from a firearm to weapons more likely to come in handy to see if maybe I've been putting the cart before the horse with my big gun and big spare mag while toting a minimally serviceable OC.

Alright. Fair points, all. I'm used to being too close to do poo poo but throw a fist, connect, and run. This only happens when I'm stuck in a trailer or the cargo box of a truck. They always back down, but what if they didn't?

Do you have any thoughts about using any of the things you have at less than 10 ft?

madeintaipei fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jun 29, 2018

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



You mean <10 feet? drat your edit

The JPX constitutes serious bodily harm if directed at the face within five feet. Would need to open up, use a different tool, or pop them in the chest and let fumes get to work.

A sap works great up close. Expandable baton less so either open or closed but still better than an empty hand.

Conventional OC spray has no minimum range so no biggie.

The Taser, if it is too close for NMI, can have the unit itself driven in distal from the probe strike/s with one electrode to complete a temporary NMI circuit enough to drop them and go to the next contingency from there. Steeply angling it down while deploying and hoping that buys sufficient probe spread can sometimes also work. I'm not a fan of drive stuns but it might help get a hand to loosen enough to break free if it's already in my grip.

One thing I will be giving up in a tangle when I strap up with a pocket rocket is a beefy spare mag in an OWB pouch. A G19+ sized magazine makes a readily accessed, heavy loaded fist and palm stick. A pocketed magazine of 380 ACP, speedloader, or speed strip not so much.

madeintaipei
Jul 13, 2012



Butch Cassidy posted:

You mean <10 feet? drat your edit

The JPX constitutes serious bodily harm if directed at the face within five feet. Would need to open up, use a different tool, or pop them in the chest and let fumes get to work.

A sap works great up close. Expandable baton less so either open or closed but still better than an empty hand.

Conventional OC spray has no minimum range so no biggie.

The Taser, if it is too close for NMI, can have the unit itself driven in distal from the probe strike/s with one electrode to complete a temporary NMI circuit enough to drop them and go to the next contingency from there. Steeply angling it down while deploying and hoping that buys sufficient probe spread can sometimes also work. I'm not a fan of drive stuns but it might help get a hand to loosen enough to break free if it's already in my grip.

One thing I will be giving up in a tangle when I strap up with a pocket rocket is a beefy spare mag in an OWB pouch. A G19+ sized magazine makes a readily accessed, heavy loaded fist and palm stick. A pocketed magazine of 380 ACP, speedloader, or speed strip not so much.

Hmmm. You are making me think. I'll have some more thoughts tomorrow.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



So it begins:

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Butch Cassidy posted:

So it begins:



You have the inventory of a video game character and it's beautiful and I need to buy all the holsters.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



You just reminded me of running down the street and holding the trigger down in Syphon Filter to immolate terrorists. Who had been shooting at me from the tops of buildings.

gizmojumpjet
Feb 21, 2006

Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt.

Grimey Drawer

You're not a cop that might need to select from a menu of lethal/non-lethal tools tools based on department policy and whatever the news is currently hysterical about. If poo poo is sketchy, walk or run away. If poo poo gets real, ventilate a mother fucker. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but aren't saps and batons already in the deadly force column? I mean, I know context matters and all but if someone's trying to hit me in the head with a sap or baton I'm probably going to ventilate a mother fucker.

Your OC and Taser things sure are neat and cool, but they also look a whole lot like A loving GUN!, especially to non-gun people and cops. The only time I want people to perceive me as having A loving GUN! is if I am shooting someone who needed to get shot with A loving GUN!.

TL;DR I think you should carry the highest capacity reliable handgun you can comfortably conceal along with a spare magazine, supplemented with the knife everyone should always have on them and whatever crap you can hang off your key chain that makes you feel better about life.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Even with bum legs, I think I would happily issue a challenge for any goon to kick my rear end specifically with a keychain whateverthefuck they're called.

Those aren't worth the plastic they are made with.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Certified Centrist Trash


gizmojumpjet posted:

You're not a cop that might need to select from a menu of lethal/non-lethal tools tools based on department policy and whatever the news is currently hysterical about. If poo poo is sketchy, walk or run away. If poo poo gets real, ventilate a mother fucker. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but aren't saps and batons already in the deadly force column? I mean, I know context matters and all but if someone's trying to hit me in the head with a sap or baton I'm probably going to ventilate a mother fucker.

Your OC and Taser things sure are neat and cool, but they also look a whole lot like A loving GUN!, especially to non-gun people and cops. The only time I want people to perceive me as having A loving GUN! is if I am shooting someone who needed to get shot with A loving GUN!.

TL;DR I think you should carry the highest capacity reliable handgun you can comfortably conceal along with a spare magazine, supplemented with the knife everyone should always have on them and whatever crap you can hang off your key chain that makes you feel better about life.

That sap/baton thing is valid, although as a bicyclist it’s reasonable to want something in between bare knuckle boxing an aggressive animal and shooting it.

Taser / OC is where that completely falls apart, though. Tasers and pepper sprays aren’t considered lethal force. There’s a middle ground between being able to walk away and justifying lethal force.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



There is a lot of green and yellow on the Monadnock chart. A good strike to the common peroneal often makes for a quick attitude adjustment. Also sometimes momentarily buckles a knee as that particular nerve transfers signals for lower leg movement. Batons and saps can run from less-lethal to lethal force depending on factors primarily concerning targeted zones. Batons are also strong medicine against ornery dogs.

As for stand-off between dogs and a cyclist, using the bike itself as a barrier usually works well. Better when the momentary safe space is used to deploy OC, frame pump, U-lock, or baton.

Impact weapons are not inherently deadly force despite common conception. The problem lies in untrained people defaulting to overhead blows. Saps, most solid sticks, and expandables were all designed to be less-lethal. A fairly high level of when striking rather than used to aid restraint but still intermediate.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Jul 2, 2018

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

22 Eargesplitten posted:

Taser / OC is where that completely falls apart, though. Tasers and pepper sprays aren’t considered lethal force. There’s a middle ground between being able to walk away and justifying lethal force.

They can be considered deadly force if there's a foreseeable risk of seriously bodily injury or death to the person you use them on. A couple examples: You pepper spray someone standing on a dock and they fall in the water and drown? What if you use a Taser on someone who's soaked in gasoline? These are real things that have happened and were determined by the respective courts to have been reasonably foreseeable injuries/deaths.

Same is true of a baton. If you're striking "approved" soft tissue targets, it's probably not going to be considered deadly force. Going for the head? Yeah, that probably will be.

A lot varies from state to state as far as the law goes. Michigan is weird, Tasers are considered less-lethal but are regulated more strictly than firearms, and you can only carry one if you have a concealed pistol license. Batons are completely forbidden to non-law-enfrocement folks.

E:f;b

FauxhawkSatan
Mar 27, 2010


I think carrying a taser as a non-leo is dumb but at least Butch has trained with it and thought things through with it.

I do think pepper spray can be useful. It's usefully against dogs, can be carried in areas where guns aren't allowed, and can be held in the hand before being needed which is a big benefit. If you someone sketchy down the street you can just pull your spray and be ready before that person becomes a threat. That's kinda a gray area with a gun and you can get hemmed up in that scenario.

glynnenstein
Feb 18, 2014



infrared35 posted:

They can be considered deadly force if there's a foreseeable risk of seriously bodily injury or death to the person you use them on. A couple examples: You pepper spray someone standing on a dock and they fall in the water and drown? What if you use a Taser on someone who's soaked in gasoline? These are real things that have happened and were determined by the respective courts to have been reasonably foreseeable injuries/deaths.

This is a good point. When I got sprayed on my bike in the story I told in the no-shoot thread, there were more than a couple cops who told me they would have written it as deadly weapon in that context even though the officer who took the report didn't.

Numlock
May 19, 2007


Black Lives Matter

Carrying more than one weapon seems excessive and a bit too mall ninja.

Like how many situations are you going to be in where you can evaluate a threat or even a potential one with enough tie to run through your arsenal of weapons in order to pick the best one that you didn’t have time to just turn around and walk away?

Also wouldn’t it invite people to second guess you? Like the cop or jury/judge/panel/etc... to ask,”why did you shoot him when you had pepper spray?” For example.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Would TFR be okay if someone popped up on the news having shot someone who tried to snatch and grab their bike bag? No. Spraying or tasing them is absolutley a reasonable response, however.

Can, may, and should you shoot a questionable character closing distance with you, despite commands to stop, without any articulable threat to your life or visible ability to grievously injure you? Yes in as much as one can do anything, no, and no in that order. Yes, yes, and yes for putting out a cloud of OC.

Some belligerent decides they'd like to throw punches? OC and likely Taser are kosher. Gun not so much.

As for running as a reflexively stated response to threats, the average violent criminal is a male aged mid-teens to mid-twenties. How many people can honestly and consistently outrun such a person? My chances are better with a 30 second head start. Or when their eyes are swelling shut and it pains them to breathe.

Speaking of things I can't outrun, the dog down the street with a colorful file at the local P.D. If it gets loose again and comes at me, my backstop is a house with children. Or the other house with children. Or the house with special needs children. On top of the clusterfuck that is shooting a dog. Tossing it a spicy treat or bopping it in the face with a stick is far preferable.

OC has the added bonus of properly slotting into the force continuum below going hands on. Without it, one has no options between command tone and a brawl or shooting. And I don't want to touch anyone I don't have to when heroin is driving the vast majority of theft in my state. Junkies are filthy hepatitis incubators.

Most altercations fall short of requiring lethal force. Some situations may well rise to it that could have otherwise been stopped before then if intermediate force had been applied early.

OC is particularly cool and unique because you can walk around with it in hand when in transitional spaces. If it is the correct tool, great. If it is wrong, it can either be dropped or spritzed to cause a startle response that will buy an extra second to run, access the proper tool, take cover, or any combination as makes sense.

Freezing for choice is a training issue. Actions aren't improvised in any quality way. A menu of choices to respond to basic situational structures make for smooth gear shifting and efficient responses.

Goons hate Ballistic Radio for reasons of varying validity. But this interview with Chuck Haggard is a great way to spend less than an hour.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Jul 2, 2018

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Numlock posted:

Also wouldn’t it invite people to second guess you? Like the cop or jury/judge/panel/etc... to ask,”why did you shoot him when you had pepper spray?” For example.

That can definitely work against you too. If you end up shooting someone, an attorney could easily argue that you intended to kill anyone you encountered and offer as proof the fact that you weren't carrying a less-lethal device and were only carrying a deadly force tool. That's WHY law enforcement officers carry less-lethal tools. That attorney might not sway a jury at a criminal trial, but remember the burden of proof is way lower at a civil trial.

On sort of a similar note, we had an officer jammed up because he wasn't carrying handcuffs off duty and got into a shoot situation. It was a good shoot, but the attorney for the plaintiff's estate still argued that the officer intended to just execute the poor carjacker since he had no other way to take the guy into custody.

TL;DR: be prepared to justify your choices either way because you will be attacked in court no matter what you did.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




I carry two pieces because of the variety of situations one could be in that require drawing. Like sitting down and standing. I don't put much effort into practicing reloads.

Most people see the set up and think mall ninja. But for me it's about practicality.

Numlock
May 19, 2007


Black Lives Matter

I wouldn’t think it’s worth it to get into any sort of confrontation over stuff outside of some scenario where it will make the difference between life and death.

infrared35 posted:

TL;DR: be prepared to justify your choices either way because you will be attacked in court no matter what you did.

Cops are expected to have those things, while random dude isn’t and having an “arsenal” on your person looks suspicious to most people.

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Numlock posted:

Cops are expected to have those things, while random dude isn’t and having an “arsenal” on your person looks suspicious to most people.
Most people don't carry at all, so better not carry a gun!

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Certified Centrist Trash


Numlock posted:

I wouldn’t think it’s worth it to get into any sort of confrontation over stuff outside of some scenario where it will make the difference between life and death.


Cops are expected to have those things, while random dude isn’t and having an “arsenal” on your person looks suspicious to most people.

You’re arguing against carrying a weapon that (99.9% of the time) doesn’t result in a person being dead because a jury might think it’s suspicious. If your lawyer can’t make it look like a good thing, you shouldn’t have hired Lionel Hutz.

And you’re trying to handwave away situations that don’t justify using a gun by saying it’s “not worth it.” You don’t always have a choice.

22 Eargesplitten fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jul 2, 2018

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Numlock posted:

I wouldn’t think it’s worth it to get into any sort of confrontation over stuff outside of some scenario where it will make the difference between life and death.

My daughter is about to start a drink stand for the holiday crowd. To fund a new bike which will be ridden in an event raising money for cancer research. In the name of a man who's funeral we just attended. There is a menu of responses if someone tries to swipe her cash box:

A) Shoot someone over money.

B) Let them take it, leave my kid crushed and questioning how much her father can actually be counted on to be there for her, then hope my wife ever looks at me the same after

C) Use a less-lethal weapon*.

D) Go hands on.

I'm not choosing A and B sucks. D is inherently risky in a lot of ways. While nothing is certain and context matters, I'd almost certainly choose C and not care what anyone thinks about it.

* Where a choice is to be made before heading out. OC would suck for a lot of people in the immediate area and wouldn't do much of anything if the perp turned away. A stick is just beyond going hands on. Electricity sounds like a good option. A combo is possible but it'll be hot out and none of my shorts pocket a baton well. So, Taser it'll be. And bump back to my usual mid-size handgun while publicly handling money.

Numlock
May 19, 2007


Black Lives Matter

Craptacular posted:

Most people don't carry at all, so better not carry a gun!

I'm not arguing that you should only carry a gun.

My thinking, and the point i'm trying to get across here is that it must be easier to defend "I thought my life was in danger and I used what I had on hand" vs "I regularly carry many weapons, and no that doesn't make me a weirdo despite what you might think, but anyway I picked X instead of Y because reasons (that you might not agree with). Yes I didn't have time to run away or avoid the conflict but I did have time to think through my options and evaluate just how much of a danger the attacker/thief presented to me."

I see EDC posts all the time with multiple guns, knives, bludgeons as well as non-lethal stuff like spray and tasers, and while I totally understand that you will not know what will happen other people are just going to think you were out looking for trouble.

Hell some of them include restraints like zip ties and I hope those are joke posts because if I was a cop there is no way I'd give somebody the benefit of the doubt if I found that poo poo on them.

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Numlock posted:

I'm not arguing that you should only carry a gun.
I'm arguing that if you go down the rabbit hole of "But what will other people think?!" then soon you won't be carrying anything.

Numlock posted:

I see EDC posts all the time with multiple guns, knives, bludgeons as well as non-lethal stuff like spray and tasers, and while I totally understand that you will not know what will happen other people are just going to think you were out looking for trouble.
There are a lot of people who think that by carrying a gun you're going out and purposely looking for trouble, hence my comment about not carrying a gun.

gizmojumpjet
Feb 21, 2006

Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt.

Grimey Drawer

Butch Cassidy posted:

B) Let them take it, leave my kid crushed and questioning how much her father can actually be counted on to be there for her, then hope my wife ever looks at me the same after

Let's all spend some time unpacking this sentence good god.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Sure. Kids minds process things differently than adults and everyone I know carries childhood grudges over more minor failures. My wife would absolutely think less of me if I let someone steal from her daughter. Actually, my sister and parents would be pretty pissed at me, as well. Nevermind how lovely I'd feel about myself.

So, yeah, sometimes stuff is worth getting in a fight.

E: I'd rather distill the quoted bit and let it shed the maudlin phrasing than unpack it. Boiled down, we get: Anyone that lets a petty thief victimize a child is a pussy.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jul 3, 2018

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




I say this with a lifetime of experience ranging from MMA gyms to back yard brawls - pick the right words combined with the right posture and nobody will ever get physical.

That's why I get pretty irritated at people carrying who know gently caress all about how to handle themselves. I'm not talking about disabled, elderly, or tiny people either. If you are a thirty something dude that thinks it's important enough to carry a loving gun, learn how to throw a punch or toss someone.

Numlock
May 19, 2007


Black Lives Matter

Craptacular posted:

I'm arguing that if you go down the rabbit hole of "But what will other people think?!" then soon you won't be carrying anything.

There are a lot of people who think that by carrying a gun you're going out and purposely looking for trouble, hence my comment about not carrying a gun.

Going the other way and not caring what others think gets you down a different rabbit hole and you find yourself carrying more gear than inspector gadget and coming across as some sort of wannabe vigilante commando.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Numlock posted:

...carrying more gear than inspector gadget...



B-Rock452
Jan 6, 2005




B: Let them take the money while protecting your daughter and explain to her that money or objects can always be replaced but a life can't. Then your wife is relieved you didn't get killed by a petty thief while escalating a situation over 30 bucks. Not getting into a confrontation over stuff doesnt make you a pussy.

The other day I honked at a guy who was running a red light and they flipped at me. Started tailgating me and honking. Normally right past that light I stop and get coffee. Instead I kept driving since i was carrying and didn't feel like fighting some rage moron in a parking lot. Does that make me a pussy?

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Numlock posted:

Going the other way and not caring what others think gets you down a different rabbit hole and you find yourself carrying more gear than inspector gadget and coming across as some sort of wannabe vigilante commando.

So what's so special about a gun to where you think that other people's opinions shouldn't matter for it, but their opinions should matter for other less lethal options?

glynnenstein
Feb 18, 2014



Craptacular posted:

I'm arguing that if you go down the rabbit hole of "But what will other people think?!" then soon you won't be carrying anything.

I'm not really invested in this debate, but I just want to point out that people do this all the time with guns, too. 10mm, trigger job, reloads, etc...

I think it's naturally a part of thought experiments about carrying whether it's guns or less-lethal, honestly.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



B-Rock452 posted:

B: Let them take the money while protecting your daughter and explain to her that money or objects can always be replaced but a life can't. Then your wife is relieved you didn't get killed by a petty thief while escalating a situation over 30 bucks. Not getting into a confrontation over stuff doesnt make you a pussy.

The other day I honked at a guy who was running a red light and they flipped at me. Started tailgating me and honking. Normally right past that light I stop and get coffee. Instead I kept driving since i was carrying and didn't feel like fighting some rage moron in a parking lot. Does that make me a pussy? No

I don't get into traffic poo poo. My posts were internet overexplanation of my safety briefing with the kids that went, in entirety, "someone pulls a weapon, give them the cash box and get away or at least down in case I have to shoot. Someone swipes it and runs, let them and I'll get rowdy. Someone argues about change, don't even have the argument, give them the difference and let them move along."

We all have a line in the sand. People who opt for your tactic are fine. I'm not one of them. People victimizing kids is a big, flashing line with me.

Numlock
May 19, 2007


Black Lives Matter

Craptacular posted:

So what's so special about a gun to where you think that other people's opinions shouldn't matter for it, but their opinions should matter for other less lethal options?

Mostly,

Numlock posted:

My thinking, and the point i'm trying to get across here is that it must be easier to defend "I thought my life was in danger and I used what I had on hand" vs "I regularly carry many weapons, and no that doesn't make me a weirdo despite what you might think, but anyway I picked X instead of Y because reasons (that you might not agree with). Yes I didn't have time to run away or avoid the conflict but I did have time to think through my options and evaluate just how much of a danger the attacker/thief presented to me."


I doubt there would be a problem if you say had a gun and spray. But a gun, taser, spray, knife and a bludgeon at the same time?

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Today's fearsome blade was a keyring-sized MAM penny knife. Plus Taser and USPc. No bludgeon.

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Numlock posted:

My thinking, and the point i'm trying to get across here is that it must be easier to defend "I thought my life was in danger and I used what I had on hand" vs "I regularly carry many weapons, and no that doesn't make me a weirdo despite what you might think, but anyway I picked X instead of Y because reasons (that you might not agree with). Yes I didn't have time to run away or avoid the conflict but I did have time to think through my options and evaluate just how much of a danger the attacker/thief presented to me."

If your options are either 0% (run away/comply) or 100% (deadly force), then there are a number of potential situations where neither produces an optimal result. Having a continuum of options is better. Having the option doesn't prevent you from going up or down on the use-of-force scale. All it does is give you the option.

Do you have an example where someone carried multiple less-lethal tools and for some reason that was a factor in them having a non-optimal legal outcome? Do you know of any recognized self-defense experts/trainers/etc. who advise against carrying less-lethals? Or is this just "iunno, I think that other people might think it's sort of weird, maybe...?"

Craptacular fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Jul 4, 2018

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

My coworkers think I'm weird for carrying a less-lethal device off duty, even though the agency strongly encourages it.

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Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Found a minor problem with AIWB mid-size pistol and AIWB crossdraw Taser. Makes me look like I have the beginnings of a softening dad belly. Which I wouldn't usually care about had my wife not introduced me to her wicked hot yoga instructor while looking as such. Wife at least got a chuckle out of my rare moment of self-conciousness. May have to press a pocket rig for the Pulse.

Chief of police, patrolman, Captain, nor dude who's wallet I found on the street noticed anything in various levels of interaction from reporting to turning in to coming by to thank me.

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