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Dingleberry
Aug 21, 2011


B-Rock452 posted:

B: Let them take the money while protecting your daughter and explain to her that money or objects can always be replaced but a life can't. Then your wife is relieved you didn't get killed by a petty thief while escalating a situation over 30 bucks. Not getting into a confrontation over stuff doesnt make you a pussy.

The other day I honked at a guy who was running a red light and they flipped at me. Started tailgating me and honking. Normally right past that light I stop and get coffee. Instead I kept driving since i was carrying and didn't feel like fighting some rage moron in a parking lot. Does that make me a pussy?

I am wonder where the OP lives where getting ďrobbedĒ at a kiddies drink stand is even a possibility? That said, easy answer is donít let more than a few bucks change pile up in cash box. Put most of the money in your/her pocket as it accrues, keep enough handy to give change I guess.
I carry a gun, the gun isnít to protect my stuff or money, its to protect my wife, kids. I have a 2 and 4 year old. My threshold for when Iíd ever use it changes when Iím with them. By myself though I can run pretty fast and that is more agreeable than even justifiably shooting someone in a situation as youíll get run through the ringer whether you were right or wrong.

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Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Handling money in public creates an increased chance of robbery. Period. Relatively low probability for a number of factors aside, it was a place to discuss reactions with the kids and work through planning with them. I never said that I expected them to get knocked over but that doesn't preclude spending thiry seconds covering the contingency.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Certified Centrist Trash


Itís probably worth mentioning that Butch was an EMT, so heís got a lot of experience seeing how far and how quickly things can go south over barely anything.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



In honor of both being accused of carrying a full bat belt and living in a bastion of freedom, I upped my pocket flashlight and dumped a stick beside the wallet in my pocket before heading to the fireworks:



On the bright side, unfolding the blast door/electrode flap confirms that the rig will work fine if just made longer. Going to epoxy an extension onto a spent cartridge to use when pressing future rigs until I shell out for a dedicated mold and rig a removable extension (likely just a folded metal friction-fit collar filled with epoxy to avoid crushing) for A/IWB that leaves the mold still usable at standard length for OWB commissions.

BrianM87
Oct 30, 2006
I keep missing. Are you sure the bullets work?

Captain Log posted:

I say this with a lifetime of experience ranging from MMA gyms to back yard brawls - pick the right words combined with the right posture and nobody will ever get physical.

That's why I get pretty irritated at people carrying who know gently caress all about how to handle themselves. I'm not talking about disabled, elderly, or tiny people either. If you are a thirty something dude that thinks it's important enough to carry a loving gun, learn how to throw a punch or toss someone.

I normally just lurk and leave well enough alone, but I felt compelled to address this. For the first part, I understand where you are coming from but this is not true and you've gotten lucky. This is not downplaying the importance of deescalation which I think is the intent behind your post? I think if you're going to carry then you have a responsibility to go to some kind of deescalation class, as well as do some force on force training where things can get a bit physical. But sometimes no matter what your posture, size/build, verbals, or anything is telling the other person, every now and then they just want to fight and there is not a damned thing that's going to stop it. I've arrested a number of people who started a fight with multiple officers present even though they knew with 100% certainty that they would lose and ride the taser/get their rear end beat in the process. If they weren't drunk/hosed up on drugs, the usual reasoning was "figured if I'm going to jail I might as well get some credit for punching a cop." Yes those are different circumstances that most people don't/won't encounter, but there are still people who will get physical even when confronted with someone that could potentially wreck their day. People lose rationality pretty fast when situations go beyond what they planned for or expected.

For the second part, again, I'm pretty sure I understand where you are coming from, but getting physical with people in those kinds of situations can lead to some life altering injuries. I'll agree on the tossing part, learning some physical skills to extricate yourself from an unexpected situation is a good idea. I don't think it's necessarily good for everyone to learn it even if they are physically capable though. Most people would be better served with proper deescalation training I think.

BrianM87 fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jul 5, 2018

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




I feel like we agree?

I have a pretty peculiar manner of phrasing things.

BrianM87
Oct 30, 2006
I keep missing. Are you sure the bullets work?

We might! I'm coming off of working a midnight shift straight through the day shift followed by another midnight, so I'm kind of tired.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




BrianM87 posted:

We might! I'm coming off of working a midnight shift straight through the day shift followed by another midnight, so I'm kind of tired.

Cool. My rambling point was twofold.

A. You will typically be able to get out of a fight with the right vocal and posture responses. This doesn't apply to bouncers or cops.

B. If you carry a gun, you should know how to retain it.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



It pissed rain yesterday morning so I strapped up the JPX in place of the Taser. Did so again today:



E: Reposting that picture elsewhere made me notice that just replacing the OWB with a pocket holster and Speed Beez with pair-o-speed-strips will make it work for today.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jul 7, 2018

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Just saw this posted by Andrew F. Branca, one of the America's leading attorneys in self-defense law and the author of The Law of Self Defense.

"The FBI/DOJ tell us that weíre five times more likely to face a simple assault or battery (a non-deadly force attack) than an aggravated assault or battery (a deadly force attack). In most cases a gun is not the legally permitted response to a non-deadly force attack. But when a personís only defensive tool is that gun, the fear and stress of even a non- deadly force attack often compels them to pull that deadly-force response out. Because they werenít facing a deadly force threat that could justify such a response, they often end up charged with felony aggravated assault, even if they never fire a shot. Have some non-deadly means of defense: OC spray, a Taser, martial arts, something. Donít leave yourself with only a hammer, when the threat you face will only rarely be nail."

SirDrinksAlot
Aug 6, 2006

The wicked flee when none pursueth


I carry pepper spray with me in addition to my carry piece. I also have a striking device on my key-chain (Thanks butch!), but that's about it. Carrying a taser in addition to everything else isn't worth the bulk in what I consider already a heavy loadout. I'm not gonna fault someone else though for having other options, a taser can be a great tool even as a contact device when someone gets a little too close into your personal space yet there's no need for lethal force (Gun/Knife) and pepper spray would expose you as well.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Crap. The horizontal OC pouch prototype that I've been testing for a year* cracked. Noticed when putting my crap back on after taking this photo:


Have to do a trial run of a K-frame commission so the model 10 is up. Also have to test something else out so the LCR got dropped in my weakside pocket. Plus, you know, a brace of revolvers istradition. The sap is less to have another less-lethal as something I felt like doing because it goes with a brace of revolvers like peanut butter and chocolate. Not pictured is the Surefire light I had slipped in an odd side pocket in my new shorts to see how it rides. I'll fly right close to the sun doing ALL of the R&D simultaneously.

* I've been consistently against kydex as a belt mount and tested the rig for so long precisely because of this sort of thing. Thought the J-shaped tabs might hold up better but ho hum.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Is that a loving blackjack?

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Butch Cassidy posted:

Crap. The horizontal OC pouch prototype that I've been testing for a year* cracked. Noticed when putting my crap back on after taking this photo:


Have to do a trial run of a K-frame commission so the model 10 is up. Also have to test something else out so the LCR got dropped in my weakside pocket. Plus, you know, a brace of revolvers istradition. The sap is less to have another less-lethal as something I felt like doing because it goes with a brace of revolvers like peanut butter and chocolate. Not pictured is the Surefire light I had slipped in an odd side pocket in my new shorts to see how it rides. I'll fly right close to the sun doing ALL of the R&D simultaneously.

* I've been consistently against kydex as a belt mount and tested the rig for so long precisely because of this sort of thing. Thought the J-shaped tabs might hold up better but ho hum.

Oooohhhh, let me know what you work up for the Model 10.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



So, I'd forgotten about folding, belt-mounted coin purses:

http://www.meangeneleather.com/shop/mgl-hot-tamale-less-lethal-coin/#prettyPhoto

Saps are handy in trousers with purpose designed pockets. Less so in regular pockets. The handle spring also makes them pretty stiff when trying to sit with one in a front pocket. But I do like the idea of a meaningful impact device being at hand. Going to order a Hot Tamale next pay cycle to try out. Folding over the belt may just make for a convenient...improvised fistful of "piss off."

We'll see how much the weight of forty quarters or whatever mix of change gets on my nerves. And am thinking either chocolate or Crazy Horse for the finish.

NickBlasta
May 16, 2003

Clearly their proficiency at shooting is supernatural, not practical, in origin.


Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Alright, I'm speaking respectfully, because Butch is awesome and we have multiple police officers here -

But, have any of you guys ever used a sap/baton/billy club/blackjack? It's pretty loving difficult. Also, there is an inanely high chance of crippling the other person. I'd like to hear some hands on stories.

For a guy like you or me, a baton is a genuinely deadly weapon. But what about an average Joe?


I know why this exists but I just can't stop laughing at it.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Captain Log posted:

Alright, I'm speaking respectfully, because Butch is awesome and we have multiple police officers here -

But, have any of you guys ever used a sap/baton/billy club/blackjack? It's pretty loving difficult. Also, there is an inanely high chance of crippling the other person. I'd like to hear some hands on stories.

On an actual human in a real-deal fight? No. But I've been training with batons for over 25 years, frequently in scenarios against live opponents in padded suits. It is largely a matter of knowing that it can easily be an instrument of deadly force, and knowing what areas of the body are more likely to be considered deadly force when struck and what areas are less likely to be viewed that way.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



I've mentioned elsewhere that I bought my ASP just to back up OC for a couple specific dogs along my work commute. It actually lives in my work pants pockets as I prep each pair for the next shift and is very rarely taken out to carry any other time. Hulking a low swing at an aggressive animal's head is a different kettle of chips than taking the piss out of a belligerent.

That said, everyone packing a baton should read, at minimum, Fundamentals of Modern Police Impact Weapons. While some of the strikes and target zones are dated and a lot about incapacitant sprays is obsolete, it is excellent. Bits about articulation, positioning to look like a defender rather than perpetrator to bystanders/cameras, proper use of environmental weapons, knowing when to pre-stage/threaten/brandish/strike/choose another weapon remain good, and the author is still an active professional witness and consultant. Most importantly, it has a phenomenal chapter devoted to the Lamb Technique. The technique is no longer common practice among the 5-0 but change the targeted zone from the knee to common peroneal or dog's face and Joe Public has a valuable tactic that is sadly mostly forgotten. Monadnock's strike zone chart should also be regularly reviewed to keep it in mind.

As for saps, I can personally vouch for one being more likely to momentarily buckle a knee than a short baton with a solid hit to the common peroneal. And that the bruise will linger. Resultant of a partial swing by a child. A riled adult could dish out a world of hurt with the quickness.

In other news, my Mk-6 can of cone pattern Def. Tech. 1.3% came in. Loooooooooooove the index finger groove. Makes the can so quick and easy to index. And, while eight feet doesn't sound like much range, it's a country mile compared to the three or maybe four to which my Key Defender can reliably give a proper dose. The Mk-6's cone also has a better and denser pattern. Too early to tell how often I'll carry it but things are promising.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Jul 19, 2018

madeintaipei
Jul 13, 2012



Butch Cassidy posted:

...positioning to look like a defender... expert witness...

"I'm going to beat the poo poo out of you and get away with it, just ask that guy."

I get it, yeah, but maybe don't stick around after you clobber someone. Getting smacked hard enough to stop 'em in their tracks is no guarantee they'll stay down, chasing one off doesn't mean they'll stay gone. Even dogs can hold a grudge.

Anyways, you are talking about using your situational awareness to help pick a tool? Can you think up two situations for us? Both you alone, no kids, no animals involved. [Maybe think worst case; a person unstable or intoxicated coming around the corner at you in a confined space, it's totally up to you]

One: [insert situation]...leading to a theoretical escalation of force, wherein you would run through your tool options without violence, to solve the problem.

Two: the same but with violence at any point in the escalation. Solve the problem.

Free form answer, as you please.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Ayoob wasn't talking about hanging around to look like the defending party. He discussed baton strikes that look to a camera and third parties as you trying to move away and forcing the belligerent to very obviously move toward you.

As for your question, I'm way too jacked on caffeine to parse it.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Regarding situational awareness being used to pick a tool, well that's the case with anything. If you mean picking between Taser, OC, baton, or gun then no. I don't carry them all at once. I also don't carry a baton outside of the one context for which I bought it. Until this month as it has been easy to game my own thought experiment when too lazy to lug a Taser or fullsize spray where a small, light baton can just drop in a pocket. It's cheating if I'm being honest with myself.

As for choosing Taser or OC, I guess that's half a consideration. My keychain is a pepper spray and is on me by default. OC is a lower level of force as it won't smash someone's face in a curb through the magic of gravity fairly easy choice there. If you mean choosing between a beefy OC and taser, that is just daily planning. Hiking? Beefy OC goes on my belt. Going places indoors? Taser goes on the belt instead as it won't dose everyone in the room and other rooms attached to the air handler.

Two things sparked this month. Buying a Taser for work that I have to carry while developing holster designs to list on my site and finding more merit in the weapon than expected. Then there is the dinky keychain pepper spray that is a mousegun of the less-lethal world; would I feel better off carrying a better spray-or-whatever even at the expense of dropping to a smaller gun to make it doable or is the little spray enough? I'm so far finding that I feel better prepared with a longer ranged and more effective less-lethal plus snub revolver than a medium frame semi-auto and keychain spray. So I am seriously considering going to a snub fulltime to leave myself free to strap on whatever intermediate weapon seems appropriate on any given day without having to safe a "usual" belt gun for a smaller one to make it workable.

Saps are cool and absolutely effective. But legality is a grey area and, as a 210 pound dude, looks bad from the outside. I own one because I want to. It finds itself in my pocket once in a great while because I feel like it. The "coin purse" is something neat that I want and will co-opt my own thought experiment to justify purchase. Someone smaller than me may well have a better reason to pack a sap and I'm curious to see if the foldy belt mount one has merit. Don't honestly expect myself to go though every day with a half pound of dead weight on my belt. Can see it being a handy option in the dresser drawer to button on if heading out someplace less Mayberry than my usual stomping grounds, though. And, again, making that choice would be much easier if packing an LCR than USPc.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



I thought I'd already posted in here trying for that clarification but didn't. Turns out I had a blonde moment and posted it in the less-lethal thread.

Butch Cassidy posted:

So Far:

- Despite being fatter and taller than a Glock 42, the Pulse is just begging for a pocket holster. I didn't expect to feel that way but here I am. Despite my personal ability to make whatever I want, wonder if Mika supports Tasers?

- I wish saps and blackjacks were unregulated everywhere. A short telescoping baton doesn't instill confidence against anything but a dog. Beyond my specific use on my work commute, I'd much prefer a sap or even just a hefty flashlight the size of a collapsed baton. The P16 has been slipped in my pocket a few times this month but really only because I felt like it for my challenge. Next paycheck might see me pick up a P21 and see if I can fit that into my work pants and at least upgrade by a few inches.

- Am done trying to fit Mk-3 sized OC cannisters into my life. They don't pocket well and all belt rigs see them conceal* less well than my JPX. Have a Mk-6 can with pocket clip and cone pattern on the way to try out as a medium OC option. My current pile of Mk-3 cannisters will be relegated to jacket pocket carry and mounting to bike frames.

- Speaking of, still love my Piexon. I'd like to continue carrying it on body more often (less infrequently would be a better description) after this month. I know TFR has seemingly no middle ground opinions about it but it is a very nice piece of kit.

- Being honest, I bought my Taser as a business investment just to check for functional concerns for holster molding before getting a resin mold. Had low expectations for the way I'd feel about it in my life. I quite like it, thing weighs nothing, and feels like a better way to maintain stand-off than OC when indoors for extended periods.

- I might very well drop down to just carrying a snub-nose for a handgun. The reduced bulk and weight really does open options for secondary weapons that would be well and truly inconvenient alongside a medium or full frame handgun.

- Barring the Mk-6 spray catching my fancy, I'll be going back to handgun+reload+Key Defender as my true daily carry weapons.

* A bit hypocritical. They print no more than a spare medium or full-size handgun mag. I could give up my reload and gain a better spray. But I'm just not down with that. Appoligies to Claude Werner who's ear is itching and doesn't know why.

And the shell for a protoype Taser pocket holster has been rough pressed to finish after a handful of customer work clears off my bench. Thinking left-side carry to not be confused with my regular pocket handgun habit.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010





I've been lugging this lot around for the last few days. Mk-6 canisters are great. Real easy to index with the flattened front and finger groove, not too big for a pocket, good safety, and feels rugged enough I'm not worried about damaging it. Too bad it's only set-up for clipping to the left pocket. It's also not as convenient as my Key Defender. I'll likely wind up just clipping it to my pocket when heading to town or going out for a run. Will also become my bike jersey spray which'll be great compared to the nothing I currently take on long rides. loving with my usual habits for the month has been worth it just for that.

Looking like I won't be bumping up my intermediate weapon fulltime. When the little ASP spray is always on me, my JPX lives in the bag that's usually with me, and a Mk-6 spray or Pulse can be clipped on before spending increased time in transitional spaces, I'm feeling pretty well set. Though ditching the spare mag in favor of a daily better spray when I return to the USPc would honestly be the correct choice if not the one I'll make.

Also glad I've had to R&D the Taser. It really is a neat option to have around.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Certified Centrist Trash


Whatís with the speedloader there? Iíve seen it a couple times, but I canít tell why itís basically double length.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Speed Beez. You can also buy a speed loader for it to speed load your speed loader. It's wicked pissah.

Anyway, the yellow bit is machined with a post for each cartridge. When the rounds are indexed in the cylinder, pressing the yellow knob pops them all in flush then it falls away. It's great as 22 LR doesn't have the mass to slip into the chambers by gravity alone thanks to any fouling, pocket grime, or just wax.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




I want to hear about carrying a taser. I also want to hear about the holster you use. I'm really thinking of replacing my bac up piece with a taser, depending on legality.

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Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Not much to say. The Pulse is roughly the size of a Glock 43 (bit fatter, much lighter, shorter front-to-back, and taller top-to-bottom), carries like a regular ole handgun though should have a long holster shell for stability, and you ideally want the safety to be guarded by the holster. It also comes with a warning leaflet that shows the approved target zones (not the head nor front of the chest) and admonishion to pretty much never tase anyone but a direct threat to your life who is standing over a stack of pillows while wearing a helmet, knee pads, and mouth guard.

IR35 has a Bolt, formerly known as the C2, and could tell you more about that. Looks live a remote bent in half to play phaser, lacks iron sights, still has a light/laser, is very non-gunish, and can be had in a handful of colors. It takes different batteries but the same cartridges.

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