Yu-Gi-Oh Mafia

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Dancer: May 23, 2011

Nat20, can you promise me there will be no rewards for "most spammy poster" :v:

? In that case I'm in.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2018 18:03

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# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 00:09

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Khris Kruel posted:

So this game does have an interesting mechanic in that we draw cards at night. But I do not think a no lynch is good for town. We need a starting point to lynch scum, and I'd rather not wait around for a cop to claim.

I do think this game is unique and we need to at least discuss the pros and cons of a no lynch. My question is, what do we do day 2 with nothing but dead townies? We don't want cops to claim, they become targets.

I mean, I'm on your side that a no-lynch is not what I want, but for the record: In this game it's very much possible to get action results without claims. "Hi I'm VT but I played a watch card last night and here's my result"

# ¿ Jul 15, 2018 05:36

Dancer: May 23, 2011

I dunno about other people, but I imagine I won't be the only one who was away from home for the hot weekend. Not easy to be productive when I'm with the gf and without a PC.

So, first things first, I've given this a lot of pondering and decided I should claim this, on the assumption that there are more town powers/cards in the game than scum ones: you shouldn't target me with an action if you don't want it wasted. This obviously may sound scummy, like I'm trying to doge being copped, but I reckon if I were scummy there's only about 5% chance a cop randomly picks me anyway (yes I know a cop wouldn't be doing it "randomly", but this is an approximation), so I don't have a lot to gain by doing this. On the flipside, wasting a genuine town action by accident would be a big drawback. The situation might change in the future, but this is how it is now.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 18:55

Dancer: May 23, 2011

In the big debate, I find myself holding a firmly anti-Anidav position, primarily because of his (to my eyes) massive backpedal, first claiming he also has an alternative wincon, then reverting to claiming town. I think there's a significant chance that he's 3P, not scum, but even a 3P lynch wouldn't be terrible. If he's scum, that's only a big bonus. Worst case scenario, he's town, and we have actually gained information on the set-up (I'm working here on the assumption that his claims are to be trusted if he's town, and that he didn't speculate that wildly. He claimed to actually have this factual information).

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 18:59

Dancer: May 23, 2011

An early weak-ish scum read that jumped at me is Yami.

Yami Fenrir posted:

Fairly sure it's the later. It's Anidav.

Yami Fenrir posted:

At this point I'm fairly sure Anidav is either talking complete bullshit in a way that doesn't feel natural to me at all (insta win cards in a mafia game, seriously?) or he knows something we don't.

##vote Anidav

Yami Fenrir posted:

##unvote

So you do know something not everyone does. Still seems unlikely that non-interactive instawin bullshit is actually in the game but I can at least see where you're coming from now.

These are 3 almost-consecutive posts, with not that much happening in the middle. Anidav did write some clarifications, but those were things that a reasonable person could've surmised that he meant from his earlier statements. Wouldn't vote Yami over Anidav, but the read is there.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 19:04

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Anpu voting for no-lynch I might understand, I can't quite read his behaviour, he always seems weird, but I expect more from B-man. Given the prompt, let's read him.

... Not a lot to read there. In hindsight, I can believe that his vote was a joke; I can assume good faith there. Where it becomes harder to assume good faith is his absence. If you asked me to name one player who lurks a lot more when they're scum than town, Bee would be that player. He also claimed VT, entirely unprompted, unless I'm missing something.

Conclusion: scum read

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 19:14

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Anomalous Amalgam posted:

All these people tossing down suspicion on me lol too cute

I'm going to briefly interrupt my reading of the rest of the game to slam down a ##vote AA. Entirely independent of whether you're scum or not, if we as a community develop a meta where that kind of posting gets you insta-lynched, that can only be a good thing.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 19:24

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Anomalous Amalgam posted:

I think Dancer made a really bad vote on me. It doesn't actually make sense and is clear indication that they aren't trying to solve the game.

Would vote Anidav, Nep, Dancer in that order because that order provides us Most to Least amount of info, IMO.

It is possible for people to multi-task you know. I am reading and reading and trying to figure stuff out, but a game is a fundamentally social endeavour, and when someone says something as anti-socially douchy as that thing you said up there, I don't see why I can't also offer some negative incentives to that behaviour. Yes, in the grand scheme of things, if a significant portion of this community came around to my way of thinking, town win-rate would decrease slightly, but game enjoyment would increase and I'll gladly take that trade.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 19:49

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Jeabus Mahogany posted:

Dancer's next post is spent defending Anidav. They then go on to vote AA, one of Anidav's biggest detractors.

Nothing in my following post was in any shape or form pro-Anidav, it was me questioning the behaviour of Yami. And my current vote on AA has nothing to do with his alignment.

Like, I hate to be pedantic, but when we're playing a game that is purely about communication and inter-player interaction, pedantic is kinda the way to go. The post you're referring to:

Dancer posted:

These are 3 almost-consecutive posts, with not that much happening in the middle. Anidav did write some clarifications, but those were things that a reasonable person could've surmised that he meant from his earlier statements. Wouldn't vote Yami over Anidav, but the read is there.

Those posts of Yami's I pointed out were ones wherein they seemed to very quickly change their mind about Anidav. My sole purpose in bringing up "Anidav wrote some clarifications" is not to say "oh hey Anidav is behaving non-scummily now", it's to point out the fashion in which I believe Yami's behaviour is scummy. Had Anidav's "clarifications" been a bigger deal, then it would've been easier for me to accept Yami as acting in good faith (as in "hey now I get what Anidav meant before so I'm changing my mind"). This is why I say "those were things that a reasonable person could've surmised that he meant from his earlier statements".

Also I explicitly say I still want to vote Anidav over Yami. Saying that this post is spent "defending Anidav" is either a misunderstanding or acting in bad faith.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 20:09

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Yami Fenrir posted:

Dancer keeps getting hung up on bizarre things and it's honestly tripping me up.

Like his "weak scum read" on me is based on the fact that I correctly called Anidav out on having knowledge we don't or being bullshitting in a unnatural way (which in turn he's trying to avoid giving us knowledge we don't have, aka he'd be scum). He came out with it so I unvoted.

His scum read on b-minus may have some merit based on meta, but it's still a lurker vote, aka a crapshoot.

I would rate BOTH of these weak. Where are your STRONG scumreads, Dancer?

Also out of all of the things I would be voting (and have) voted AA for, a (semi?) policy vote based on saying "Look at all the people throwing suspicion at me" (which is actually a very, very valid suggestion, even if thrown out in frustration. Scum pushes are a thing, so why the hell would you even disincentivize people from defending themselves? This feels like the OMGUS argument all over again...)

You're being massively disingenuous. I have not at any point taken issue with AA defending himself. If you look at my specific post, I have specifically cut down AA's post to the following sentence:
"All these people tossing down suspicion on me lol too cute"
and explicitly specified that I take issue with his tone. If you do not see how his tone in that sentence is something someone might take issue with, then I don't know how to explain it to you.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 20:12

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Side-note please don't think I'm not aware of Bif being all buddy-buddy. I already had her on my list of "people to keep an extra close eye on" (because of that whole "town superstar" "debate"), and this just reinforces that yes, I should be doing that.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 20:16

Dancer: May 23, 2011

One more thing about Yami's post:

Yami Fenrir posted:

I would rate BOTH of these weak. Where are your STRONG scumreads, Dancer?

There are none, and I imagine if I play 100 mafia games there will always be none on day 1.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 20:18

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Yami Fenrir posted:

This is actually a really good point.

Paired with what I just said...

##vote Dancer

Please re-read my post about "defending Anidav". For ease:

Dancer posted:

An early weak-ish scum read that jumped at me is Yami.

These are 3 almost-consecutive posts, with not that much happening in the middle. Anidav did write some clarifications, but those were things that a reasonable person could've surmised that he meant from his earlier statements. Wouldn't vote Yami over Anidav, but the read is there.

Dancer posted:

Nothing in my following post was in any shape or form pro-Anidav, it was me questioning the behaviour of Yami. And my current vote on AA has nothing to do with his alignment.

Like, I hate to be pedantic, but when we're playing a game that is purely about communication and inter-player interaction, pedantic is kinda the way to go. The post you're referring to:

Those posts of Yami's I pointed out were ones wherein they seemed to very quickly change their mind about Anidav. My sole purpose in bringing up "Anidav wrote some clarifications" is not to say "oh hey Anidav is behaving non-scummily now", it's to point out the fashion in which I believe Yami's behaviour is scummy. Had Anidav's "clarifications" been a bigger deal, then it would've been easier for me to accept Yami as acting in good faith (as in "hey now I get what Anidav meant before so I'm changing my mind"). This is why I say "those were things that a reasonable person could've surmised that he meant from his earlier statements".

Also I explicitly say I still want to vote Anidav over Yami. Saying that this post is spent "defending Anidav" is either a misunderstanding or acting in bad faith.

Do you still think that the thing Jeabus said is "a really good point"?

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 20:20

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Anomalous Amalgam posted:

"Don't target me, I don't want you to waste your ability" Sounds like something every player says regardless of alignment, but obviously more so by scum.

I will make the dreaded wifom argument here. Would I, as scum, needlessly attract attention that way? Of course the answer to that question is "Maybe". Now ask how likely the chance is I will do that on D1, with 20+ people in the game. I would argue the chance is significantly lower.

Of course, it's wifom... I don't necessarily expect you to buy this, nor do I necessarily expect that further discussion would help, I'm just asking you to re-consider.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 20:23

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Yami Fenrir posted:

Sorry, contradiction might have been the wrong word here. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the proper english word atm? (german here). Still had the word in my head from Jeabus' post.

But look at this:

Here he defends bad behavior as jokes.

Here he immediately slams down a vote on bad behavior. This feels like a... what's the word... Double standard? I think that's the one.

I personally don't see why tone matters. Especally in a situation where you're more likely to be frustrated to begin with (aka being voted). You may have not meant it, but the post earlier comes over pretty absolutist on the matter to me, since it's pretty much the sole factor on the vote.

---

Coming back to Jeabus' thing:

I do not see it as a defense of Anidav. However, the read still seems flimsy to me.. How exactly am I supposed to summise "anidav has mechanical knowledge of a game mechanic" based on a bunch of people talking about it? It feels graspy to me. Same with the B- read.

What you refer to as "bad behaviour" from bee is "bad mafia play" (voting no-lynch).
What you refer to as "bad behaviour" from AA is "being a dick".

If you still think that's a double-standard, please tell me which of the two you take issue with. Do you disagree with me reading bee's no-lynch vote as a joke? (which is feasible, though I think a lot of people agree with me) Or do you disagree with me taking issue with AA being passive-aggressive and smug (this part is less feasible).

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 20:28

Dancer: May 23, 2011

King Burgundy posted:

I have a question related to this. Why did you take issue with AA's tone attitude but not Bif's?

short version: phrasing. In my mental image of this thread Bif was saying "I'm a good town player don't vote me", AA was saying "lol cute". Maybe if I go through the thread again and pay attention to details I missed, Bif will also jump out as particularly smug. The AA post happened Then and There, and I had the opportunity to instantly react, so I did.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 20:38

Dancer: May 23, 2011

For the record, I'm mostly buying it. Mistakes happen. Doesn't mean you're in the clear, but igi.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2018 21:29

Dancer: May 23, 2011

anime is bad

# ¿ Jul 17, 2018 15:05

Dancer: May 23, 2011

esp children anime like yugioh

# ¿ Jul 17, 2018 15:05

Dancer: May 23, 2011

jk ofc, all anime is children anime

# ¿ Jul 17, 2018 15:05

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Thoughts going down the thread of today.

SalTheBard posted:

I'm still not 100% clear on Anidav, I think his changing story is sketchy as gently caress.

This post has no reason to exist. If this was a single post in a chain of 10 posts by the same person, I'd accept it as them just posting thoughts, which is legit. But to step into the thread, decide to make the "effort" of posting, and to then say only *that* feels like someone who's trying to just post for the post's sake.

---

Bifauxnen posted:

Nice, I still have a similar opinion. Especially since I totally disagree with the flavor/mechanics spec he was doing, too.

I might join you on that vote later, but for now I'm gonna

##vote Asiina

till she gets caught up enough to do something

Still suss of Bif for what I see as not necessarily justified support of me yesterday, but these are both opinions I agree with. I particularly remember Asiina in DBZ being massively active.

---

I really don't like shooting someone without giving them any chance to claim. For all beet knew, they were shooting a cop.

---

A thought re: Anidav's Exodia thing: If a town player happens to have a power or a card that lets you steal cards, they should steal it from Anidav before the baddies do. (I get that this might be giving baddies the idea, but I imagine they are significantly more likely to have already thought of it).

---

SalTheBard posted:

I'm not really wild about Ainpu bringing other games into this game no matter how weird KK is acting. Each game is its own and I think it's poor form to do what you are doing.

Sal making another post that can be viewed as white noise. Starting to feel comfortable lynching Sal (though he's absolutely not my top pick).

---

I've reached big post by KK and it would be a bit messy to place it here, so I will start a new post.

# ¿ Jul 18, 2018 21:01

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Khris Kruel posted:

The first scummy vote in my opinion is Nep-Nep:

Just saving this for later.

quote:

Here's Dancer posting this anti-anidav position, but not voting for anidav...and then immediately voting for AA in Dancer's next post

I keep crashing against this base assumption you people seem to have in every game I play. I imagine it's obvious by now that I post in mafia threads in bursts. If I know that I will continue to occupy myself with the thread for the next half hour or whatever, and that I will make more posts, and we're not on the cusp of the deadline, I don't see what the loving point is of voting early. Had I not voted for AA on the side-track I decided to take, I would've 100% voted for someone (reasonably likely Anidav) by the time I would be done posting.

quote:

There's now 4 votes on AA, and Yami unvotes with flimsy reasoning. I think it's interesting timing, because AA is beginning to pick up steam, and maybe Yami did not want to be the first voter on it? I'm unsure, but it seems like there are ulterior motives here besides "I just find you naturally suspicious lol I'll unvote my b bro"

Nep-Nep following in Yami's footsteps

I'm entirely fine with both those things. Yami "I don't want to vote for you cuz we're reaching the same conclusions", like, that's what makes a someone a good scum player. Just because you agree with some conclusions that player X made doesn't mean you can't believe that player X is faking them. Indeed, it is very much in scum's interest to be like "yeah I totally agree with you" when you make a wrong read. That way a) a mislynch is more likely to happen and b) when it does happen, they're not responsible for it.
I looked back. Yami's initial suspicion of AA wasn't because they disagreed, it was specifically because they thought the way AA had reached his conclusion was suspect ("being really cagey" and swinging for no reason)

quote:

This is a good call out by Jeabus. Dancer and Jeabus are definitely not on the same team. I don't see scum buddies doing something like this.

I maintain that the call out by Jeabus was bullshit. Not necessarily scummy, but just wrong. (and I view further endorsement of it, after my defense of it, as suspect.) Here's the defence I'm referring to:

Dancer posted:

quote:

Bif's vote on AA again...Bif is literally all over the place, voting all kinds of people. Honestly that seems more townie to me than anything. Scum are trying to avoid spotlight. I think Bif is genuine.

I will agree that it absolutely seems to me like Bif is trying to be the centre of attention, or at least she is not afraid of it. Though, I think, from a competent mafia player, I read this as alignment neutral. Bif might be a Godfather for all we know.

The rest of KK's post is stuff I don't take particular issue with.

Then...

Khris Kruel posted:

I think Dancer has been scummy...He was anti-Anidav, but never voted him, and then jumped on AA for meta reasons and doesn't care about AA's alignment.

Conclusion: KK town. They've been aggro in other games as town. And, while I (obviously) think that my interpretation of events is the correct one (my vote was determined by social reasons, not game reasons), I get how a reasonable person could reach the opposite conclusion, and thus read me as scummy.

# ¿ Jul 18, 2018 21:31

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Mafia edit: That very first thing In my post (the "just saving this for later"), I was going to return to it later in my post but I forgot. It does feel slightly like KK is going "Soooo Nep-Nep is suspect I guess... but let's ignore that and move somewhere else entirely, look people, shinies!". I see how a person acting in good faith could have the train of thought KK documented, but I can also see how there might be nefarious motivation behind it.

My point with all this is, I see this as too weak to draw conclusions off of now, but if either KK or Nep-Nep flip scum in the future, this will reflect poorly on the other one, in my eyes.

# ¿ Jul 18, 2018 21:35

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Side-note: Mona claims that Anidav was at -1 at some point. This reflects a bit poorly upon him, I think? It feels to me like, in such a big game, if someone has 12 votes on them already, a scum wouldn't shy away from doing an "unjustified" hammer because "hey guys I'm just one of 13 people who voted for him".

# ¿ Jul 18, 2018 21:42

Dancer: May 23, 2011

gently caress nevermind, there is of course the other option that the person being voted is indeed town, and they aren't getting hammered because all scum (or all scum currently present) have voted for them already.

# ¿ Jul 18, 2018 21:44

Dancer: May 23, 2011

b-minus1 posted:

lol KK, i just found your d1 breadcrumb.

What is the purpose of this post other than role-fish

# ¿ Jul 18, 2018 21:45

Dancer: May 23, 2011

b-minus1 posted:

switching from anidav to AA was the easiest decision the scum could have made yesterday. Because anidav is town.

Honest question, because I think I'm being an idiot: I have no clue what your logic is; what the hell do you mean here? As in, individual scumbros might be gaining town trust by switching away from a townie? What makes that decision so "easy"? (basic toddler level logic that I understand: an "easy" decision is one where you switch from a scumbro to a townie. But if Anidav is townie that doesn't apply. Again, I'm probably being an idiot).

# ¿ Jul 18, 2018 21:58

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Iron Chef Ramen posted:

he was getting lynched at the deadline, which was in 25 minutes. don't you think, maybe, just maybe, if i was scum, i would've just shut up and let it happen?

in the interest of transparency, since i'm pretty sure scum know more of the mechanics than we do, i drew an exodia card last night. it gives me a night action to offer a card (presumably any card, not just the exodia piece) to another player, and swap it for a card they choose from their hand. If I control all 5 pieces of Exodia, my team and I win the game.
If I survive today, I'm going to give it to whoever I think is the towniest. Anidav should do the same, since he's painted a target on himself.

For whatever it's worth, I'm fairly confident I recall someone else saying the same thing about another exodia card? Like, this could still be a ploy by a scummy ICR to gain town cred, but this is still worth pointing out.

# ¿ Jul 18, 2018 22:40

Dancer: May 23, 2011

With the limited energy I've been able to muster today, I've read through ghogh and ICR's post histories. ICR 1) has the scummier vote-swap and 2) has made comments on literally one single other person (Anidav) and no-one else. (bonus 3): if he flips scum that provides strong indication of a 2nd scum i.e. Anidav)

##vote ICR

# ¿ Jul 20, 2018 03:09

Dancer: May 23, 2011

As time goes on I'm reading Sal as more and more scummy - his biggest post is building a case off "extending joke-phase" and a misspelling, and that seems like a bunch of white noise.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2018 03:15

Dancer: May 23, 2011

I gotta admit Nat20, that one's really funny.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2018 22:36

Dancer: May 23, 2011

SalTheBard posted:

This game is one of the most bizarre. We have all N1 actions blocked. Now we have some exiled to shadow realm. I'm also voting against not using lurker gun.

I know I seem like a lurker but, despite my slight aversion to posting, I do strive to actively follow each thread I'm in. Have I missed something? When have we reached a consensus that "all N1 actions were blocked"? Just because noone died, doesn't mean that nothing happened.

I'm asking because, having information about multiple N1 actions (implied by knowing that all N1 actions were blocked) is suggestive. In which case his might be one of those mythical scumslips I keep hearing about.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2018 22:46

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Dancer posted:

I know I seem like a lurker but, despite my slight aversion to posting, I do strive to actively follow each thread I'm in. Have I missed something? When have we reached a consensus that "all N1 actions were blocked"? Just because noone died, doesn't mean that nothing happened.

I'm asking because, having information about multiple N1 actions (implied by knowing that all N1 actions were blocked) is suggestive. In which case his might be one of those mythical scumslips I keep hearing about.

Eh, I did some back-reading, and I guess various people's comments were quite suggestive. This is me seeing ghosts.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2018 22:51

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Mr. Humalong posted:

Lol

ur mom

# ¿ Jul 20, 2018 22:52

Dancer: May 23, 2011

SalTheBard posted:

Dancer excuse me for the hard to read post. I was writing you because I was agreeing with you

I know Jack and poo poo about N1, except a bunch of people mentioned having their actions blocked, and a bunch of people believe it was 50's fault. 50 did claim having a card that's "too hillarious not to play", but I haven't yet found where (if anywhere) those two parts of the story were explicitly connected.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2018 23:49

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Khris Kruel posted:

because I didn't believe he was town if he had a vig. I thought two one shot vigs for town was excessive.

This is either silly or disingenuous. The game has literally been described as "role insanity".

# ¿ Jul 21, 2018 17:32

Dancer: May 23, 2011

b-minus1 posted:

Lmao fuckin cult again

I have difficulty following everything that's being said but this is bullshit. There are a million things it could mean (remember Westworld? We had both snakes and injections in that one), and jumping to quite possibly the single least popular mechanic here on SA is a stretch.

# ¿ Jul 23, 2018 02:31

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Nep-Nep posted:

Given discussion about the potential for people to steal cards/force trades/take cards from graveyard earlier in the game, why would you say this?

For whatever it's worth, it's perfectly understandable for people to get desperate when everyone's piling in on them. I don't read that thing as scummy. And I'm also entirely willing to give a non-killing 3P a pass. It's my impression that "benevolent" 3Ps are more likely in big games (source: I was one in my first mafia game).

# ¿ Jul 23, 2018 02:39

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Khris Kruel posted:

so this is mutually exclusive to town winning

He has never said nor implied that and your aggressiveness is unwarranted.

# ¿ Jul 23, 2018 02:41

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# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 00:09

Dancer: May 23, 2011

Khris Kruel posted:

oh you're suddenly trusting for someone that is marking people.

He could also be LYING

Your post was presented as a conclusion from the things he was saying. Yes this is mafia I know that literally anyone could be lying at any point. I was just pointing out that your logic, as presented, was bad.

# ¿ Jul 23, 2018 02:45

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