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Endless Mike posted:selling demo cars is very common, and they do, in fact, count as "new" since they've never had an initial say, but dealerships will give steep discounts on them, since they'll usually have a few hundred miles on them. something tells me tesla is not doing that. German manufacturers list all press vehicles separately and they include a ton of usually restricted options that identify them as press vehicles (including of course the insuspicious option "press vehicle") Over here Demo cars by law are not new cars. Showroom cars are. Someone trying to sell you a demo car with the label new car here will not only have to take the car back at any given point if the customer finds out, but also will be eligible for fraud charges. Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Aug 24, 2018 |
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Aug 24, 2018 20:42
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fart-powered cars posted:only did cars for a while tesla ruined my taste for it but i keep up a little bit. the china stuff is really interesting because they're making some really neat looking cars that look totally unsafe That's not even EV specific. Many German vehicle engineers went to China in the late 2000s and now come back with horror stories about the level of vehicle safety and quality control there. From cringe stuff like seating poor fitting valve tappets in with hammers to dangerous poo poo like faulty torque tools that get used to torque wheel assemblies and brake calipers. Oh and every EURO NCAP test of a Chinese production car here is a popcorn event usually. Also OP you are a cool guy and thanks for the thread, it was a great read although the programming was over my head.
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Aug 24, 2018 21:46
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Shifty Pony posted:you would think that because that's what a competent company would do. this owns Sagebrush posted:my favorite german expression, used in reference to a profoundly stupid person: Der Blitz soll dich beim Scheißen treffen may lightning strike you while you take a poo poo
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Aug 25, 2018 01:12
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I am glad to be reading this thread at 5am
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Sep 8, 2018 04:09
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Shaggar posted:nascar atleast has more than 1 car on the track at a time. nothing is more boring than f1 Best and worst are hard terms. I think we can all agree that sipping beer in a pub while some wicked man with chops rides down the street at 300 kmh + is peak Motorsport entertainment. Therefore Isle of man TT shall be the ground to unite people bored of watching rednecks driving in circles and the ones bored of watching some techno kiddies drive around in overpriced fart machines with fancy wings.
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Sep 11, 2018 03:11
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The power of musk compels you E: the wired article says that tesla wants to reverse fix this by adding a pin code option to the model s dashboard. Just let that sink in. For decades people use a physical key to avoid unauthorized access to the vehicle. We add fobs to remotely open the vehicle. This is convenient. But you still need a physical key to start it. This is propably the best compromise between safety and comfort. The simplistic, but effective security of a physical key gets replaced by a convoluted fob design that is expensive, less secure and now forces you into a pin code to actually get somewhat of a sense of security. All that to avoid inserting and turning a key? Is a pin code really more comfortable than an ignition key? Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Sep 11, 2018 |
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Sep 11, 2018 03:16
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Jonah Galtberg posted:also i have an incredible amount of irrational hatred for the word fob The German word is Fernbedienung. Don't know if that's more convenient
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Sep 11, 2018 09:59
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Lead acid batteries age by sulfatation which can be reversed with good chargers. They also don't age nearly as much when they are topped off regularly. My bike batteries are between 3 and 10 years old. One of my cars developed an internal short in the battery last winter, but that was after 8 years of battery life. Lithium button cells usually last me 5 years or so. I mostly replace them for good measure, not because they run out of juice. Lithium accumulator aging mechanics are heavily dependent on charge rate, cutoff voltage for charging and depth of discharge. For 4.2 volt cells, reducing the charge to 60 percent max will usually result in 10x the cycle capacity. Lenovo suggests a 40-60 percent duty cycle for maximum lifetime. Most automotive applications do this in the background by reducing initial top off voltage of the battery and increasing it over time to maintain range level. Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Sep 11, 2018 |
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Sep 11, 2018 17:32
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I have a garage in the house so I just put charging ports on the bikes and swap the charger around every couple weeks in the winter. There are cheap trickle chargers wirh 1amp or so that will do plenty fine if you just leave them attached for storage. I only got bigger chargers so I swap them around and make sure the cars stay topped off as well. Also i doubt that even if you use liquid acid that you have an open battery. Most of them are sealed from the factory nowadays so no worries about evaporation
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Sep 11, 2018 18:43
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Wow the last time I saw one of those was in 2007 when I still had a 50ccm scooter. Well the good thing is that you can check, refill and care for the electrolyte which will enhance its lifetime. Just make sure to spray some protective wax around everything close to the vent line couplings.
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Sep 11, 2018 18:58
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iospace posted:The only problem I can think of about why Tesla didn't license the drivetrain is that it would likely require a patent, which is a pro and a con. For 17 years, only people you approve can use the drivetrain (I think), and they have to pay you for it (know this one for sure). Once those 17 years are up, anyone can use the drivetrain for free. You have to release how it works and such, which is why a lot of companies refuse to patent things. I wouldn't be surprised if Musk felt the same way here, given his ego. EV drivetrains are a lot less useful to buy in from an external manufacturer than a combustion based drivetrain, because the majority of mass and volume sits in the battery which has to be one off made for the car aniways if you want to actually cram in significant amounts of range. The motor, motor control and the transmission are relatively unspectacular to engineer and there's not the same potential for cost saving as in buying a full drivetrain or an entire front end (pedal box forward) in a combustion engine powered vehicle.
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Sep 13, 2018 16:40
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iospace posted:Serious talk: until they can solve the battery issue, either via swapping or fast charge, EV semis pretty much going to be relegated to yard mule work, where's a lot of low speed applications. I'm honestly surprised they don't have cabless, diesel mules yet, but that also may be a factor with how fast they can move with the operator outside the cab. We discussed the EV strategy at the last shell urban mobility summit and it is a shared view in the automotive industry that EVs will not replace the combustion engine (yes yes we do make ads that say otherwise) EVs are perfect for urban transportation with large amounts of stop and go and low speed traffic. And they solve the NOx and particle problem in urban centers. But battery powered EVs will always suck at long range. The charging and battery life become ludicrous matters and so does the car weight if you try to compete with diesel ranges or even just good petrol long range cars from years ago. Every drivetrain division in every major automotive brand knows that the best strategy is to propose a shared marked with an EV focused urban strategy and a combustion and hybrid focused rural and highway strategy. The biggest problem is that many European governments are too greedy to allow tax and insurance free second cars (especially EVs or very small petrols) which would incentivise urban population that is depended on long range individual travel to get a short range EV for city use. Tldr: EVs are perfect for short range stop and go stuff. Stop trying to make them highway monsters. Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Sep 14, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 08:48
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gschmidl posted:Or, y'know, make sensible hybrids. A hybrid on a highway is for all intends and purposes a petrol car wirh added weight. For proper long range travel diesel is the preferred solution. The diesel itself suffered a similar problem as the EV. marketing junk and bad tax design insetivised urban population to acquire drivetrains that are strictly intended for long range highway use and resulted in the air quality catastrophe that many European cities are suffering through right now. Also whenever we design hybrids we do intend them for city population still. That's why you hardly find a diesel hybrid at all. When it comes to eating miles at high speeds its best to really have as little unnecessary poo poo as possible in your car and several hundred kilos of dead HV drivetrain surely don't help. And range extenders are a fuckin joke if you look at the efficiency. It's a tough nut for the population really (and especially the fanboys) but neither drivetrain is perfect and we will see them coexist for a very, very long time.
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Sep 14, 2018 08:59
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Why don't they have stations where standardized battery packs get pulled in and out of trucks by machine, dropped off, charged, and picked up rather than making truckers wait to charge up The automotive industry needed over 20 years to approve a common design for a fuel tank filler neck so that petrol stations could be standardized. If they decided tomorrow that we do the battery exchange, you and me would likely not live to see the system successfully implemented and in wide use.
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Sep 14, 2018 09:03
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gschmidl posted:You're looking at this from an US perspective; here in Austria (and surely also other European countries) the travel distances are far shorter and a hybrid with 200km electrical range would be sufficient for most purposes. I'm actually from Germany. The competition between combustion engines and electric drivetrains is market independent. the big KPIs for EVs in the current competition are range and charge rate because they do try to compete with combustion engines no matter the actual daily driving conditions. In a black and white world these are the killers one liners that the EV makers fear "you can only go xxx miles and have to charge for xx hours to fully get up to range again?!" That this implies a strictly long range /highway competition scenario is true, but unimportant given that there currently is little incentive to limit EV usage to short range driving conditions, which would be the optimum overall. Ideally, the demand would drive the market towards a shared use case scenario where both drivetrains can play to their strengths. Austria was lucky in that you have an established Wechselkennzeichen system which eases the cost of owning multiple vehicles and allows that choice to be made in the first place Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Sep 14, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 09:27
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Media Bloodbath posted:What's the guaranteed life expectancy for the batteries and how easily can they be exchanged? I'm not in the market for a car but if I were, that would be my number one concern as it affects the life time value I get out of it (incl. resale value). That's the hubris of high range EV. The energy density in lithium based batteries is limited unless you want a galaxy note thing to happen. Range extension functions by cramming more batteries in, not denser ones. Lithium batteries as I wrote before here somewhere have 3 major aging mechanisms, top off voltage, duty cycle and charge current. Higher voltages reduce battery life cycles, higher charging currents reduce battery life cycles. Using a cycle range of maximum voltage to minimum voltage reduces the battery life cycles. All 3 are highly important KPIs for the EV market. The rate at which the batteries age, especially using fast charging mechanics, is an order of magnitude over the aging and wear of combustion engines and drivetrains and further emphasizes the point about EVs being a poor replacement for internal combustion engines when it comes to clocking a lot of KM in the shortest time possible. For IC engines it's quite the opposite actually. Highway driving and clocking kilometers will significantly increase the lifetime of the drivetrain compared to mixed or pure urban use. Here's a graph of the effect of charging voltage on the cycle capacity of lithium cells https://batteryuniversity.com/_img/content/lithium2.jpg Here's a graph of the influence of the capacity drop at different duty cycles for lithium cells https://batteryuniversity.com/_img/content/capacity-retention3.jpg The aging effect of fast charging is mostly dependent on the thermal load of the battery during fast charge, so it's a case by case basis and depends on battery layout and cooling solutions. Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Sep 16, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 13:15
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Truga posted:also, if you live anywhere appreciably north and don't have a garage, rip your battery in the winter We did some tests wirh a last gen nissan leaf and found that in short range winter use, between 30 and 50 percent of the battery charge is used for things other than driving. Mostly the ptc heater which is an even bigger energy drain than the air con, which most people use in tandem to defrost the windows.
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Sep 14, 2018 13:23
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Sorry for creating that impression. I wouldn't say EVs suck. The are just not the holy grail of mobility. There's a right tool for the right job and urban centers are suffocating over exhaust gasses. But at the same time it's utopian to believe that every IC engine in automotive use can easily be replaced by an EV. I know it's an anticlimactic answer but so are most sustainable engineering solutions.
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Sep 14, 2018 13:48
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ADINSX posted:is that really true with modern catalytic converters? High efficiency engines produce significantly more toxic exhaust than the classic MPI petrol engine and its a lot harder to get rid off too since classic 3 way catalysts don't work with non stochiometric combustion engines. Also particle emissions in diesel and fuel stratified engines. Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Sep 14, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 13:55
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:then, uhh, why are gas hybrids hitting 40-50mpg highway on the regular while similar sized gasoline models struggling to hit 40? Because the test duty cycles to get those numbers have nothing to do with practical driving
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Sep 14, 2018 14:00
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You used a completely hybrid independent term for gas exchange in an IC to explain why a hybrid is better. If a hybrid drivetrain had significant advantages on the highway you would see fleets of diesel hybrids. Yet except for an unsuccessful Peugeot no one even offers diesel hybrids.
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Sep 14, 2018 14:20
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:stop backpedalling dipshit i am quite sorry if my words offended you, i only get paid to design automotive powertrains, not to sell them to the public. Twerk from Home posted:Are you talking about small passenger cars, or OTR trucking? Diesel passenger cars are a loving footnote in the USA, I guarantee there's more hybrids than diesels among small passenger vehicles. i am quite in picture how truck powetrains work and yet the argument holds in both cases. adding a gearbox or a compound charger (which doesnt do much on a Turbo engine with non stochiometric combustion) does not alter the general question of hybridisation for the powetrain. Here is the main consideration that makes hybrids a no go for extended highway use. an IC powertrain or hybrid that is not a plug in has to extract all its energy from the actual fuel and will ideally do so in the most economic manner possibe, aka the most efficient one. For internal Combustion engines, the most efficient energy extraction happens at the point of lowest specific fuel consumption (lowest g/kWh) which, in the main engine map, has an RPM and a mean effective pressure coordinate. for Petrol engines, this will be somewhere around 50% RPM and 80% Engine load (or 80% of the maximum MEP at the given RPM) for Diesel engines or fuel stratisfied Engine it will be closer towards 60% Engine Load. The average travelling speed in the EU for a strict highway drive is around 100km/h and the maximul allowed velocity between 120 and 130 km/h (or in the case of germany, 130 km/h guidance speed) any modern petrol engine with at least 5 gears will run close to the RPM coordinate of the maximum efficency at those mean and maximum highway speed by design. The only option to increase the Engine efficiency would be to increase the engine load, since coasting at constant velocity only takes a fraction of the load that would be required to run the engine at the most efficient MEP. Running a hybrid on the highway without a driver that drives like a 5 year old (i.e constantly accelerating and braking which is a very inefficient travel style in general) only allows for one logical mode of operation, which is Power Point Shifting. This means that the electric drivetrain will run in generator mode to charge the battery while increasing the vehicles efficiency by shifting the MEP closer to its optimum. The efficiency that you gain between coasting efficiency and peak engine efficiency has to be large enough to compensate for the entire efficiency loss in your electric drivetrain in 2 ways, that means you have to gain enough efficiency to overcome generator losses, Rectifier losses, Battery charge losses, Battery discharge losses, inverter losses and electric motor losses. The average gains for Power Point shifting are about 15-20 percent of relative efficiency and only on low highway speeds. The average losses in an electric drivetrain are between 20-35 percent. It does not take a math genius to see why this idea was discarded over 10 years ago and why long range vehicles are almost never hybridised. Atkinson and Miller Gas Cycles are in no way limited to Hybrid IC designs. If you drive a BMW that is never than 2005, chances are you have a valvetronic head and your engine runs a heavy Miller Cycle, which is like a mirrored Atkinson and does pretty much the same for practical engine efficiency. If you have any Japanese car with variable valve timing and lift, it will be the same. The reason Toyota used Atkinson instead of a Miller Process was mostly for patent reason if i remember correctly. The thing is that both Atkinson and Miller decrease Volumetric efficiency so it does not make sense to run either one at high engine Loads, which is where the actual peak efficiency of the Engine happens. Running a high power atkinson cycle means you have to build a bigger engine than a classic design to produce the same peak performance. the added mechanical losses will eat up your efficiency gains by the atkinson cycle, which also lower when running the engine at higher load since what you gain is mostly a compensation for negative pressure slope charging during the intake stroke. E: and before anyone gets a heart attack yes i know atkinsons cycle war originally designed to harvest the energy that is usually puffed out as primary exhaust , but that only works in a theoretical perfect world and in fancy idealised diagrams. if you look at the actual pressure and volume curve of a real engine, youll quickly find the the added benefits of miller and atkinson cycles are the reduction of negative pressure slope losses during the intake President Beep posted:aren't CVTs more efficient though? CVTs have a bad mechanical efficiency. In a manual powertrain you lose no Power in the clutch, you lose about 1-2% per gear pair (so 2-4% in a 3 shaft transmission, 1-2% in a 2 shaft transmission and theoretically none in a 3 shaft transmission in direct gear). Plus a few % for bearings and seals. For the classic Manual you can safely attest 95% efficiency a classic automatic transmission without an override clutch for the torque converter will usually sit at 91%. with an override clutch you can improve that close to manual efficiency. CVT transmissions have significantly higher losses in the primary torque path and will yield, depending on design, about 86 % efficiency. due to the Improvements in gear count for automatic transmissions, the benefits of having infintely adjustable transmission ratios becomes unimportant compared to the overall loss in efficiency when using a CVT. There was a brief period however when CVTs and classic automatics competed in the premium sector. Also some Japanese Manufacturers keep them for prestige and heritage reasons. Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Sep 14, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 18:02
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Malcolm XML posted:lol at anti hybrid man i actually like hybrids. I would definetly say they have the potential (and rightfully so) to take big chunks out of the classic petrol IC market. i wouldnt get one because i like manual transmissions but thats about it.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:33
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 https://jalopnik.com/teslas-on-trial-over-an-elon-musk-tweet-1829041336
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Sep 14, 2018 19:44
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iospace posted:gently caress cars, ride a bike. the only acceptable option 
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Sep 14, 2018 21:06
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exploded mummy posted:I h have spend THOUSANDS of hours researching this company Now that's the spirit. Go team Elong
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Sep 15, 2018 15:24
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FAUXTON posted:Android is just the overarching system that allows tesla-like fuckups like Essential and OnePlus to exist and it's fair to blame it for that. Is the problem with one plus that HD DMR stuff that doesn't let you watch 1080p Netflix and poo poo? That was the reason I didn't get one, Is there anything more?
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Sep 15, 2018 19:23
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Not being abled to push away a model 3 due to Powertrain design is especially funny considering they use switched reluctancy motors that virtually have no braking torque when powerless so there must be some weird rear end mechanical mumbo jumbo in between the wheels and the motor that prevents pushing. Oh nevermind it's just weird systems design that applies the parking brake when you switch into neutral. Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Sep 17, 2018 |
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Sep 17, 2018 01:10
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jit bull transpile posted:self proclaimed car expert does not know what a differential is A differential creates practically no braking torque as otherwise your wheels would lock if you lift your foot of the gas pedal. The only types of transmissions that do are worm gears and screw type transmissions. As someone pointed out before its the system design that dictates the car shall apply the parking brake when put into neutral
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Sep 17, 2018 01:14
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jit bull transpile posted:aren't teslas 4wd Still the same. There's a verbal problem since in English there's often no differentiation between self locking and self blocking transmissions. A worm drive is self blocking. A differential for a car can be self locking, which means it prevents its differential action by locking the turning speed of the wheels together, but never self blocking. If you use a self blocking transmission in your drivetrain you would lock the wheels at 0 RPM every time you ease of the gas pedal.
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Sep 17, 2018 01:18
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infernal machines posted:also weird in that there's no way to disable it without using the loving dash ipad. so i hope your 12v works and the car boots, because otherwise you're gonna have to put it on a flatbed To be fair that's not the biggest surprise anymore after this thread found how tesla basically dooms the rear passengers too when the 12V dies.
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Sep 17, 2018 01:34
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iospace posted:So pretty much like a train then. Depends on the train. A ton of trains still use brushed universal motors with voltage control. Quite spectacular when they open the covers. The brush fire can reach around the entire rotor at times.
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Sep 17, 2018 01:36
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Hell I would not have believed it either if I didn't see the pictures along with the text.
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Sep 17, 2018 01:38
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High Voltage AC is generally too spooky for me. But there's some nice runaway diesel videos for diesel electric locomotives that look like they spit hell itself out of the exhaust.
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Sep 17, 2018 01:42
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Peeny Cheez posted:Internal Combustion: tired. Battery Combustion: wired. Musks combustion : Airforce unhired
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Sep 17, 2018 01:48
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Your undelivered new car is sitting outside unprotected and next to a railroad for half a month? Totally fine. Please don't worry about all the brown spots on your paint job, that's just the flip flop effect.
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Sep 17, 2018 10:53
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Please try to keep a proper glass breaker with an integrated belt cutter if you want any kind of escape tool in your car. A center punch is better than nothing, but its got some flaws compared to a glass breaker. 1. Due to the position in your palm, you will likely push your hand through the glass shards. It's safety glass, but it can still cut you. 2. The punch will roll around everywhere in your car and can easily be lost in the event of an accident. 3. Getting rid of the belt can pose an even greater challenge than cracking a window. So if you are concerned about escaping (mainly because you live in the mountains or by a lake/river/sea) a belt cutter is even more important than the Coolio glass breaker that you can impress your friends with at the bar.
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Sep 17, 2018 16:12
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I love how space X preaches cost saving by refurbishment and reusability, but you can't get parts for your tesla and when you dent the bumper the car is totaled.
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Sep 18, 2018 12:21
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Musk is secretly shorting $TSLA
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Sep 18, 2018 17:44
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President Beep posted:may have already made that """joke""" itt, but w/e It sounded too good when I typed it  Also what exactly is the criminal act behind announcing you plan on taking the company private? And did someone do such a move before?
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Sep 18, 2018 18:00
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