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black potus
Jul 13, 2006

we got females in this krew straight up ballin gonna watch some naruto you better not be stallin


HELLO IT'S TIME FOR ME TO RUN A STUPID TOURNAMENT POORLY FOR YOUR ENTERTAINMENT!

The format this time is a riff on some bullshit called Ancient that a guy with a blogspot made up. The premise is this: cards whose first printing was in an old border set are the card pool, but with a Legacyish banlist. This means Alpha through Scourge and the various flavors of Portal and Starter and etc.

Tournament format will be Swiss rounds (based on playerbase) with the option to change your deck each week, followed by a cut to top 8 with the same deck switchability. Let's brew some dope poo poo! All matches will be best of 3.

Post in this thread to register, I'll start the festivities on the 22th of July (just shy of two weeks from now). Also, I'm gonna dig through my collection to find something neat for prize support, but if you wanna contribute too it will be welcome!

Banlist is as follows. Key differences from the Legacy banlist are Survival of the Fittest, Tinker, and Flash are not banned because the targets are a lot worse:
All Conspiracies
Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Black Vise
Bronze Tablet
Channel
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Earthcraft
Falling Star
Fastbond
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Imperial Seal
Jeweled Bird
Library of Alexandria
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Rebirth
Shahrazad
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Tempest Efreet
Time Vault
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

I believe this is all but I'll post more if I remember that I forgot.

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TheLawinator
Apr 12, 2012

Competence on the battlefield is a myth. The side which screws up next to last wins, it's as simple as that.

I'll give it a go. This is magic that's 15 years off from when I played so it should be interesting.

The Shortest Path
Jun 21, 2012

Guess where this
lollipop's going?


This looks extremely loving rad, OP. I gotta figure out what to play...

Rabbi
Nov 20, 2002



Ancient is actually the only good MTG format. I don't have time to play these days, but I'll throw a forum upgrade into the prize pool. Good luck all!

Hellsau
Jan 14, 2010

NEVER FUCKING TAKE A NIGHT OFF CLAN WARS.


Portal and Starter sets weren't legal in Legacy when Scourge was released, right?

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



E: ^^^they weren't, but also Legacy didn't exist in its current form instead of Vintage Lite until like Darksteel. Besides, this lets us do something new if we want to play with Imperial Recruiter or something

I'm in, have a few decks in mind. Can't wait to lose to Tinker to be clear, I actually do think Tinker is fine here

Elyv fucked around with this message at Jul 11, 2018 around 01:23

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010



Soiled Meat

Thunderdome: We Don't Need Another (Benalish) Hero

I actually came up with a Modern-legal list of all old-bordered cards a little while back, if I don't end up playing and someone needs another list I'd be happy to share it.

E: Really wanna play with some old-school creatures but I feel like that's sub-optimal when you have stuff life Dark Ritual, Counterspell, FoW etc available. Maybe not though, might just come up with some lists for the hell of it.

C-Euro fucked around with this message at Jul 11, 2018 around 01:54

Oldsrocket_27
Apr 28, 2009


I haven't participated in a thunderdome yet, what program is used to play?

Rabbi
Nov 20, 2002



C-Euro posted:

E: Really wanna play with some old-school creatures but I feel like that's sub-optimal when you have stuff life Dark Ritual, Counterspell, FoW etc available. Maybe not though, might just come up with some lists for the hell of it.
You can put 4x Survival, 1x Genesis, and 1x Squee into a deck, and then play with pretty much any creatures you want. This link has a few lists: https://www.channelfireball.com/hom...es-geocentrism/

TheLawinator
Apr 12, 2012

Competence on the battlefield is a myth. The side which screws up next to last wins, it's as simple as that.

I'm already torn between wanting advice and not wanting to spoil my sick tech.

InterrupterJones
Nov 10, 2012

It's obvious that this man and I share the same destiny. Therefore I must join forces with him! Besides, I'll save on gas money if I take him with me.

Finally, an opportunity to play my favorite deck in a cardpool where it may not be that bad!

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010



Soiled Meat

Rabbi posted:

You can put 4x Survival, 1x Genesis, and 1x Squee into a deck, and then play with pretty much any creatures you want. This link has a few lists: https://www.channelfireball.com/hom...es-geocentrism/

Thank you for reminding me that Mystic Enforcer exists, loved that card back in the day.

Also if you add "is:old" to a search on Scryfall, it will only return cards that are legal for this event, with the exception of promos in the old frame.

Hellsau
Jan 14, 2010

NEVER FUCKING TAKE A NIGHT OFF CLAN WARS.


Can we add Grim Tutor to the banned list? It makes things a little too consistent with 4x LED, 4x Lotus Petal, probably 4x Mox Diamond and all the Rituals.

black potus
Jul 13, 2006

we got females in this krew straight up ballin gonna watch some naruto you better not be stallin


I'm going to hold on bans for this one, but I'm planning to do more so anything that proves super busted this time will get the axe.

Also promos of cards originally printed post-Scourge aren't legal even if they're old frame. Just to be clear. No Bob sorry!!

The Shortest Path
Jun 21, 2012

Guess where this
lollipop's going?


Could we instead use the pre-8th Legacy/Vintage banlist? It seems like it would make more sense given some of the bans/unbans of older cards after that point were due to newer cards being printed.

For what it's worth, the list at the point of March 2003 would look like this:

Ante Cards
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Braingeyser
Moxen
Sol Ring
Timetwister
Time Vault
Time Walk
Channel
Demonic Tutor
Regrowth
Wheel of Fortune
Library of Alexandria
Chaos Orb
Falling Star
Mind Twist
Balance
Fork
Land Tax
Fastbond
Strip Mine
Black Vise
Stroke of Genius
Tolarian Academy
Windfall
Memory Jar
Time Spiral
Crop Rotation
Doomsday
Dream Halls
Enlightened Tutor
Frantic Search
Grim Monolith
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mind Over Matter
Mox Diamond
Mystical Tutor
Tinker
Vampiric Tutor
Voltaic Key
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will
Demonic Consultation
Necropotence
Fact or Fiction
Earthcraft
Entomb


We could make some slight modifications to it based on things we know were overlooked at that point (ban Shahrazad, unban Fork?) but I think this list is substantially better for this format than the modern Legacy banlist.


EDIT: Also fwiw, tinker was banned in 1999, for reasons that had nothing to do with cards that got printed 4+ years later. It's probably not a safe unban.

The Shortest Path fucked around with this message at Jul 11, 2018 around 05:26

Hellsau
Jan 14, 2010

NEVER FUCKING TAKE A NIGHT OFF CLAN WARS.


Yeah High Tide with 4x Candelabra and 4x Merchant Scroll and 4x Time Spiral is rather consistent.

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



The Shortest Path posted:

EDIT: Also fwiw, tinker was banned in 1999, for reasons that had nothing to do with cards that got printed 4+ years later. It's probably not a safe unban.

Tinker was not banned in Extended until after Mirrodin came out and unlike in Vintage, you don't get to Tinker moxen so I guess you get to turn Chromatic Sphere into Phyrexian Colossus?

TheLawinator
Apr 12, 2012

Competence on the battlefield is a myth. The side which screws up next to last wins, it's as simple as that.

Y'all are bringing out chemical weapons while I'm screwing around with academy rector...

Hellsau
Jan 14, 2010

NEVER FUCKING TAKE A NIGHT OFF CLAN WARS.


TheLawinator posted:

Y'all are bringing out chemical weapons while I'm screwing around with academy rector...

Legacy Magic was not a fair format game at this point in time. I mean, the Reanimator and Tinker decks didn't have any super sick targets like they would swiftly receive, so Goblins and....Fish? Threshold? Whatever that deck was called, those creature decks could still compete, but it was still the wild west of MTG where there wasn't a whole lot of information so even if there was a super busted deck, there is a good chance only a small portion of any given tournament would have even heard of it.

e: changed for accuracy

black potus
Jul 13, 2006

we got females in this krew straight up ballin gonna watch some naruto you better not be stallin


Hellsau posted:

Yeah High Tide with 4x Candelabra and 4x Merchant Scroll and 4x Time Spiral is rather consistent.

For the moment I say run it and kick some teeth in. If the format gets too bad I can hotswap the ban list but I wanna lock it in as in the OP. Iím willing to believe my list is horribly wrong but I also feel like we could tweak it to death and Iíd rather just play and fix stuff thatís degenerate.

Iíd like to keep running this past the first season so thereís ample time to fix things.

Hellsau
Jan 14, 2010

NEVER FUCKING TAKE A NIGHT OFF CLAN WARS.


black potus posted:

For the moment I say run it and kick some teeth in. If the format gets too bad I can hotswap the ban list but I wanna lock it in as in the OP. Iím willing to believe my list is horribly wrong but I also feel like we could tweak it to death and Iíd rather just play and fix stuff thatís degenerate.

Iíd like to keep running this past the first season so thereís ample time to fix things.

Oh yes I am totally game for breaking High Tide, then Ill-Gotten Gains Tendrils, then some sort of Survival deck, in that order.

suicidesteve
Jan 4, 2006
DOOM!

Nothing in Solidarity was printed before like, 1995

Hellsau
Jan 14, 2010

NEVER FUCKING TAKE A NIGHT OFF CLAN WARS.


suicidesteve posted:

Nothing in Solidarity was printed before like, 1995

I think with Time Spiral legal, Candelabra + Time Spiral is better than Reset + more cantrips and more Turnabouts. Either way, High Tide vs. Duress-based Storm vs. Goblins vs. Meddling Mage Threshold seems like a good start on a metagame.

The Shortest Path
Jun 21, 2012

Guess where this
lollipop's going?


No Ringleader or Mind's Desire makes two of those decks very sad, though.

Hellsau
Jan 14, 2010

NEVER FUCKING TAKE A NIGHT OFF CLAN WARS.


The Shortest Path posted:

No Ringleader or Mind's Desire makes two of those decks very sad, though.

Not really? Mind's Desire has never been Legacy legal (banned before Scourge came out, right?) and Ringleader would be great, but you've still got the good Goblins plus Wasteland and Port with 4x Pyroblast in the board. No Vial is a problem but whatever.

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



Ringleader is legal, Recruiter is banned, presumably so you can't just food chain people out

Hellsau
Jan 14, 2010

NEVER FUCKING TAKE A NIGHT OFF CLAN WARS.


Elyv posted:

Ringleader is legal, Recruiter is banned, presumably so you can't just food chain people out

I meant Recruiter and I assume The Shortest Path did too. The Good Goblins would be Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, and Siege-Gang, with some other Goblins showing up when they feel like it. Good mono-color curve + mana disruption + burn if wanted, along with some sick sideboard or tech options, makes for a decent aggro deck.

Recruiter is mostly just combo city.

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010



Soiled Meat

TheLawinator posted:

Y'all are bringing out chemical weapons while I'm screwing around with academy rector...

Yeah I'm sitting here all "well that Pestilence pre-con from Urza's Saga was pretty good, how can I make that a viable deck" while the rest of you are doing real-rear end Legacy stuff. Apparently I have some homework to do if I want to play in this...

Jobert
May 21, 2007
Come On!

College Slice

I played briefly during ONS when I started MTG. Astral Slide was my favorite card and it was very disappointing to come back a few years ago and find out it wasn't even Modern legal. So this sounds fun!

I also remember a few madness decks running around in extended at the time.

Rabbi
Nov 20, 2002



The Shortest Path posted:

EDIT: Also fwiw, tinker was banned in 1999, for reasons that had nothing to do with cards that got printed 4+ years later. It's probably not a safe unban.
The reason tinker was busted+banned back then was Memory Jar, which is banned in this format. It's not a threat IMO.

Hellsau posted:

Oh yes I am totally game for breaking High Tide, then Ill-Gotten Gains Tendrils, then some sort of Survival deck, in that order.
Yeah, most people should run 2x Gaea's Blessing in their board to combat reset high tide. And iggy-pop is definitely legitimate, but you might be surprised at how hard it is to pilot through a field of GAT/Landstill. I think the all-in combo decks were a lot worse back then without ponder specifically to help smooth out draws. Good luck though

Edit: VVVVVV Grim Tutor though.

Rabbi fucked around with this message at Jul 11, 2018 around 13:35

Rabbi
Nov 20, 2002



Hellsau posted:

Portal and Starter sets weren't legal in Legacy when Scourge was released, right?

Hellsau posted:

Can we add Grim Tutor to the banned list? It makes things a little too consistent with 4x LED, 4x Lotus Petal, probably 4x Mox Diamond and all the Rituals.
I agree, and I would add Grim Tutor to the ban list or I'd not allow Starter 1999 at all.

SoftNum
Mar 31, 2011



I'm playing.

I would like Portal legal please. Grim tutor ban is fine.

The Shortest Path
Jun 21, 2012

Guess where this
lollipop's going?


Hellsau posted:

Not really? Mind's Desire has never been Legacy legal (banned before Scourge came out, right?) and Ringleader would be great, but you've still got the good Goblins plus Wasteland and Port with 4x Pyroblast in the board. No Vial is a problem but whatever.

It was banned at the end of June, Scourge came out in May.

Also yeah I meant Recruiter

Rabbi posted:

The reason tinker was busted+banned back then was Memory Jar, which is banned in this format. It's not a threat IMO.

Memory Jar was banned several months before Tinker was. That said, I'm not sure why they actually did end up banning Tinker at that point, as it was several years before Mirrodin came out and there weren't any super disgusting artifacts to grab?

The Shortest Path fucked around with this message at Jul 11, 2018 around 14:46

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



The Shortest Path posted:

Memory Jar was banned several months before Tinker was. That said, I'm not sure why they actually did end up banning Tinker at that point, as it was several years before Mirrodin came out and there weren't any super disgusting artifacts to grab?

Tinker is pretty disgusting with Moxen even with no good cards to get and like Rabbi said, it could turn into your restricted Memory Jar. It wasn't banned in Extended until it dominated PT New Orleans 2003, right after Mirrodin came out.

E: Legacy at the time was literally "Vintage, except with restricted cards banned automatically" so Tinker was banned in Legacy even though it probably wouldn't have been good yet.

I'm down with Grim Tutor and Time Spiral bans personally

Elyv fucked around with this message at Jul 11, 2018 around 14:59

black potus
Jul 13, 2006

we got females in this krew straight up ballin gonna watch some naruto you better not be stallin


Not gonna ban anything else until after week 1. My foot is down. I can't pick it up.

I don't want to ban things for the following reasons:
1) Bans are not fun! If a card isn't provably degenerate, then in the abstract I'd rather have it than not. Week 1 will give us concrete evidence.
2) I don't really want to tweak the list ad nauseum because all I can really do is gut check people's assertions at this point and ain't nobody got time for that.
4) I dunno something for the rule of threes.

If people are concerned, we can do week one as a welcome week of sorts that won't impact future pairings/standings and see if anything is drastically overperforming. But I'm also ok with people using this tournament to prove poo poo's busted and force my hand and ruin people's days because I'm fundamentally a bad dude.

Rabbi
Nov 20, 2002



black potus posted:

Not gonna ban anything else until after week 1. My foot is down. I can't pick it up.
I'm 100% good with not banning anything else for now. Thanks for organizing this.

Rabbi
Nov 20, 2002



Oh yeah, I decided I'm totally in for this. I need to get XMage setup and practice using it I guess.

TheLawinator
Apr 12, 2012

Competence on the battlefield is a myth. The side which screws up next to last wins, it's as simple as that.

First archetype for testing ready. It's gonna be tough to adequately test these garbage piles.

Errant Gin Monks
Oct 2, 2009

"Yeah..."
- Marshawn Lynch


Sounds fun. I'm in.

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The Shortest Path
Jun 21, 2012

Guess where this
lollipop's going?


Okay I've finalized a deck. Are we posting lists before the thing starts or going in blind?

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