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I live the Satmar lifestyle but don't believe in it. Satmar is a branch of the Hasidic movement which is a branch of Orthodox Judaism. History: The Hasidic movement was founded by Rabbi Israel Ben Eliezer, known as the Baal Shem Tov, in Europe during the 18th century. It is not entirely clear what exactly the Hasidic teachings are all about; where it differs from other branches of Judaism. Some historians claim that the movement was mostly an uprising by the masses against the leadership who were oppressing the regular guy. Most of the Hasidic ideas predates Hasidus, though it can be said that Hasidus put emphasis on worshipping God with joy, the devotion to a rebbe (Hasidic leader), and mysticism. In Hasidus, the rebbe is the closest person to God. God conveys his message through the rebbe and the rebbe has some sway on God. It's not much different than the Christians' believe in Jesus. Over the years, many Hasidic communities were created throughout Europe by different rebbes. Almost all of the Hasidic communities are similar, with the main difference being the rebbe. Each community had a different rebbe to whom the Hasidim (the members of the Hasidus) devote themselves. Satmar is one such Hasidus. It was founded by Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum known as the Satmar Rebbe, during the 20th century in Europe and was reestablished in New York after World War II. Satmar is one of the largest, if not the largest, Hasidic sect. The Satmar Rebbe is known for his anti-Zionism. He believed that Jews are not allowed to have a state until the coming of Messiah. My life: I was born to Satmar parents and was raised as a Satmar Hasid. I was raised to believe in God, the Torah (Old Testament), the Talmud, Hasidus and the Satmar Rebbe. Over the years, I started questioning until finally I decided that it's all BS. Nowdays, I live with my wife and children who are frum (pious) and believe in all the above, while I'm a nonbeliever. On the outside, I practice everything. My wife has no idea about my inner thoughts. Had she known, she'd probably head for divorce and the community would put up a fight to restrict my access to my kids. The community isn't kind, to say the least, to heretics. They perceive it as an existential threat and they come together with all they have when one is exposed. I have to walk a fine line. I'm walking on eggshells. I'm in constant fear that one day I'll make one mistake and my life will crumble. But I can't change. I am who I am. All I can do is to bullshit my way around. I can't talk about this to my family and friends, but I can talk about it here on the virtual world. I'll try to answer questions about my life to the best of my ability, but please be advised that I'll have to change some minor details to protect my identity. Ask away! P. S. Please forgive my not-so-perfect English. In Satmar, the language is Yiddish and they don't teach much of secular studies including English. I self-taught English and other secular subjects. So that's that.
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Jul 16, 2018 18:32
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While I think this is going to be a very interesting thread, be careful about posting here. There was an ex-Satmar poster here before and I guess they divulged a bit too much personal information and apparently their remaining family in the community was harassed as a result, so make sure you don't give away any information here that could be used to identify you.
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Jul 16, 2018 18:52
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PT6A posted:While I think this is going to be a very interesting thread, be careful about posting here. There was an ex-Satmar poster here before and I guess they divulged a bit too much personal information and apparently their remaining family in the community was harassed as a result, so make sure you don't give away any information here that could be used to identify you. Thanks. You comment summarizes my life perfectly. If the community finds out about me, I'll be punished severely. I know darn well the repercussions if I get exposed and I intend on keeping my personal information private.
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Jul 16, 2018 19:11
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How did you meet your wife/how does courting work in the ultra-Orthodox community? Also condolences for your existential crisis and crushing sense of alienation OP. Edit: how are relations between the different Hasidic communities? Like are there lots of petty grudges between Satmar and other traditions or do they keep things cordial and cooperative? Squalid fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jul 16, 2018 |
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Jul 16, 2018 20:14
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Squalid posted:How did you meet your wife/how does courting work in the ultra-Orthodox community? There's no courting in my community. Boys and girls meet through a matchmaker who suggests a "shidduch" (match) to the parents. The parents then gather information on the prospect. If the parents are happy, the boy and girl meet for a "bashow", where the boy and girl sit and talk for about an hour or so. If there's no objection from anyone, the shidduch is finalized with a party. After the party the fiancée or fiancé have another sit down for about an hour. That's the last time they talk until marriage. During the engagement, the fiancée or fiancé aren't allowed to talk or even see each other. I met my wife through a matchmaker. There's a lot of animosity between different Hasidic sects. The most famous one is between Satmar and Lubavitch, which at times led to violence. Even among the Satmars there's a lot of infighting, particularly in the last two decades since the previous rebbe, Rabbi Moses Teitelbaum (a nephew of Rabbi Joel) became frail and his two sons, Rabbi Aron and Rabbi Zalmen, engaged in a fight over the throne.
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Jul 16, 2018 21:25
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What was your relationship with your wife like, particularly when you first were married? How did you get to know each other? What did you learn that surprised you?
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Jul 17, 2018 00:01
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:What was your relationship with your wife like, particularly when you first were married? How did you get to know each other? What did you learn that surprised you? In the beginning it was quite awkward. There we were, the night of the wedding, two teenagers who spent all but two hours together trying to have sex. Sex is a taboo topic to begin with. We don't talk about it. (We have teachers who teach about sex right before marriage.) Then there's gander separation. Boys and girls go to different schools and keep a distance. They don't mingle. They don't play together. They don't talk. You can imagine how awkward it must be for us to suddenly get married and have a relationship with someone of the opposite gender. We had a difficult time in the beginning, which was mostly my fault. I didn't understand her. I didn't know how to talk to her. I didn't appreciate her needs. After all, I wasn't in the proximity of women in my childhood. She is a smart woman and handled the situation amazingly. Over time I learned how to treat a woman and our relationship improved drastically. I've become fond of her. Now we have a loving relationship and I'd do anything in the world for her.
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Jul 17, 2018 05:08
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Here's Fascinator's archived thread from 2011 about growing up in this poo poo and finally escaping. One of the most interesting threads SA has to offer. Good luck OP. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3391326&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
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Jul 17, 2018 13:50
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Did you realize you didn't believe before or after you got married? Are your kids the only thing keeping you from leaving? Are you an atheist or do you still believe in god/religion to some extent?
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Jul 18, 2018 00:45
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Future Wax posted:Did you realize you didn't believe before or after you got married? Are your kids the only thing keeping you from leaving? I realized that I don't believe after I got married. We marry relatively young, at age 18-19. I stay mostly for my wife and kids, but there are other factors as well. If I leave, my parents, siblings and extended family will cut off ties. So will my friends. Then there's the culture issue. I was raised as a Satmar Hasid. It's the only culture I know. I'm not well versed on things from the "outside" world. I never read Harry Potter, watched a Super Bowl game, listened to Madonna or attended college (I don't even have a high school diploma). I don't know a lot of things the regular guy out there knows. Leaving will be a big challenge. I'll have to learn things that 5 year olds know. Making new friends in the outside world will be difficult. I don't even know how to dress like a regular American. When I contemplate leaving, my thought process goes like this: I cut off my sidelocks and beard. I tell my wife that I'm done with all of it. She asks me to leave. I leave. I rent an apartment outside the Jewish area. Then what? What's my next step? What do I wear in the morning for work? A t-shirt or polo shirt? Is jeans okay? What do I do after work? Whom do I talk to? You see where this is going? I'm like a toddler who doesn't know basic stuff. I believe that the existence of God can't be proven. If anything, there's more proof that He doesn't exist. I am sure, though, that the God I was told about can't be real. No God would kill people for eating certain animal fats or writing on Shabbos. Nor would God make women second class or have chosen people. Does this make me atheist? Perhaps. But I think I'm more agnostic than atheist.
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Jul 18, 2018 06:59
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The education factor is interesting to me. What do you do for work?
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Jul 18, 2018 12:32
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Do you think there are other people who have the same lack of belief as you do, in your community, and are staying silent about it for the same reasons?
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Jul 18, 2018 13:53
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The education factor is interesting to me. What do you do for work? What's so interesting about the education? I am an electrician.
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Jul 18, 2018 17:26
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PT6A posted:Do you think there are other people who have the same lack of belief as you do, in your community, and are staying silent about it for the same reasons? There are people in a similar situation to mine, but I'm not sure how many. I have interacted with some on social media, under aliases, but never met anyone in real life. Everyone is afraid of everyone. The community has people looking for people like me. They have a committee called Va'ad Hatznius whose job is to make sure that people conform to the rules. The Va'ad is extremely powerful because they control the school. If you don't conform, your kids can be expelled. For example: One isn't allowed to have an unfiltered smartphone. The Va'ad provides a filtering service, which gives them access to everyone's private information. Everyone must put the Va'ad's filter on their phones or else your kids can't attend school. The big brother is watching! Some, like me, circumvent it by having two phones, one filtered and one unfiltered. But it's risky. If you get caught, you'll be in trouble. The Va'ad is why people like me are afraid to talk to others. We can't risk our children. While we live in the Land of the Free, we constantly look over our shoulders.
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Jul 18, 2018 17:36
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Heimish Yid posted:What's so interesting about the education? well not having any formal, state-recognized diploma or degree significantly limits your mobility as you suggested Are you an electrician within your community, or do you do work for gentiles? Do you work as an independent or part of a larger firm or informal guild?
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Jul 18, 2018 18:11
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:well not having any formal, state-recognized diploma or degree significantly limits your mobility as you suggested The lack of secular education is a shame. Our kids grow up not having a basic knowledge in day-to-day stuff. The Hasidic community is wary of "outside" influence and firmly oppose secular education. In fact, the entire NY State budget was held up by one of the Satmar Rebbes demanding a change in NY's education law to his liking. I work for a company that's headed by religious Jews. We do work within and outside the community.
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Jul 18, 2018 20:33
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What type of stuff do you not learn in a Satmar education that you see as gaps? Let me know if I'm being annoying.
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Jul 18, 2018 20:40
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I remember the last Satmar thread from way way back and it was very interesting and if what was said up above is true that things got bad because of people finding out that makes me sad. It sucks having to live a lie for the sake of others and you can be certain that even outside of the Satmar community there are people that have to keep their own true identities hidden out of fear of severe backlash from their own communities, like LGBT folks... But yeah that is tough and I've always seen ultra-orthodox Judaism as no different than any ultra-conservative cult. "The outside world is bad, everyone is out to get you, and you cannot trust anyone but your fellow insular community members. And god drat you if you even think about treading outside those lines..." Lots of Satmar are moving out of Brooklyn and have been making their way out to my part of Long Island. I have respect for anybody new to an area that wants to join and become part of a community... but these people are only interested in pushing their own small minded agenda and making sure that everyone else is turned away and it makes me sick to my stomach. Nothing really to ask... just giving you support and do be careful about anything you reveal! Big Brother really is watching in some form or another and you cannot be too careful.
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Jul 18, 2018 20:56
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Heimish Yid posted:The lack of secular education is a shame. Our kids grow up not having a basic knowledge in day-to-day stuff. The Hasidic community is wary of "outside" influence and firmly oppose secular education. In fact, the entire NY State budget was held up by one of the Satmar Rebbes demanding a change in NY's education law to his liking. I’ve heard about this problem before, and it always struck me as particularly perfidious. Does the issue ever get discussed openly within the community though? Like do parents ever lobby the leadership for more English language instruction or math? I remember from the old thread that women get more secular education. Does this ever create conflict? Like with wives capable of getting higher paying jobs than their husbands? I assume most married women don’t work but still, if they did, few men are comfortable with their wives making more than they do.
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Jul 18, 2018 21:01
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:What type of stuff do you not learn in a Satmar education that you see as gaps? English, math, science, business, finance, ethics, to name a few. Nearly all we're studying in school are religious studies, which is important to become a good Jew but doesn't prepare you for the business world. This is an AMA thread. By definition, questions aren't annoying; they are welcomed.
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Jul 18, 2018 23:46
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SeaWolf posted:But yeah that is tough and I've always seen ultra-orthodox Judaism as no different than any ultra-conservative cult. "The outside world is bad, everyone is out to get you, and you cannot trust anyone but your fellow insular community members. And god drat you if you even think about treading outside those lines..." Lots of Satmar are moving out of Brooklyn and have been making their way out to my part of Long Island. I have respect for anybody new to an area that wants to join and become part of a community... but these people are only interested in pushing their own small minded agenda and making sure that everyone else is turned away and it makes me sick to my stomach. Thanks for your support. There's a debate on the difference between a cult and a religion. Is a Hasidus a cult? If so, is Mormonism a cult? How about Christianity or Judaism altogether? There's a saying that a religion is an old cult, and a cult is a new religious movement. I believe that it summarizes it perfectly. The real issue is if the cult/religion does more harm than good. I don't think your new neighbors are necessarily Satmar. They might be members of other Hasidic sects or non-Hasidic ultra-Orthodox Jews. I understand your frustration. They have different norms and can be a hassle to deal with. But please be kind to them. You'll find nice people within the community. Some are great businessmen. Some will even become friendly with you over time and you'll enjoy them. Remember that the way the act is the way they were brought up. They were taught to look out for each other, but were never taught to be kind to strangers. I'm not making excuses for them, I'm just giving you their background so you understand where they're coming from. One more thing. Once they move in in the masses, the value of your house will skyrocket. You might get rich!
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Jul 18, 2018 23:54
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Squalid posted:I’ve heard about this problem before, and it always struck me as particularly perfidious. Does the issue ever get discussed openly within the community though? Like do parents ever lobby the leadership for more English language instruction or math? The issue isn't openly discussed, nor do people lobby for change. The regular guy doesn't have a say in such matters. It's for the rebbe, with his holy wisdom, to decide. There are some discussions on online forums about it. It seems that there are some within the community who are looking for change. But they are afraid to talk and lobby about it openly. Girls do get a quite decent secular education. But the vast majority of them grow up to be housewives and take care of their sizable families. The irony isn't lost here. Boys who'll grow up to be the breadwinner aren't given the tools they'll need, yet the girls who'll grow up to be housewives are given an adequate education. Women don't get a higher pay than men. To the contrary, they usually make far less than men.
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Jul 18, 2018 23:58
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I am so sorry for your situation. It sounds just terrible. As a half-hearted scholar of Yiddish literature, it is kind of freaking me out to read someone's so deeply Yiddish-inflected English in 2018. Your English is excellent, don't get me wrong, but it's unexpected! On the upside, if you ever extract yourself from the religious police state enough to read secular literature, you are going to be able to read some incredible loving books that most people in the 21st century have to painstakingly drag themselves through. Highly recommend Mendele Mocher Sforim, so brilliant.
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Jul 19, 2018 03:39
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I tend to take things literally, but I thought I could maybe provide some insight, because some of these problems are perhaps not as big as you think they are if you can put a plan in place.Heimish Yid posted:... Sidelocks going is perhaps a must due to its association with the Jewish faith and your desire to not be counted as a member of it anymore. You may want to consider keeping the beard though. Beards are kind of a thing right now, especially one that's well styled and/or epic. Beard oil is apparently helpful there, but I don't know poo poo about beard grooming, so you'll want to look elsewhere for more information. Or just go full rebel and shave it off because "gently caress you, Yahweh!"  Heimish Yid posted:I tell my wife that I'm done with all of it. She asks me to leave. I leave. I rent an apartment outside the Jewish area. Then what? What's my next step? Heimish Yid posted:What do I wear in the morning for work? A t-shirt or polo shirt? Is jeans okay? Heimish Yid posted:What do I do after work? Whom do I talk to?
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Jul 19, 2018 05:40
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AlbieQuirky posted:On the upside, if you ever extract yourself from the religious police state enough to read secular literature, you are going to be able to read some incredible loving books that most people in the 21st century have to painstakingly drag themselves through. Highly recommend Mendele Mocher Sforim, so brilliant. I've read Mendele as well as other Yiddish authors of that time, like Sholem Aleichem and I. L. Peretz. Those books are brilliant, funny and eye-opening. At the time when those books where published, religious Jews had to hide those books from prying eyes. Thank God for the internet, where I can read books freely. Btw, is there any way I can send you a PM? Heimish Yid fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 07:53
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Buried alive posted:I tend to take things literally, but I thought I could maybe provide some insight, because some of these problems are perhaps not as big as you think they are if you can put a plan in place. Thanks for your tips and tricks. They are informative and amusing. I know that most problems can be handled, but it's not that simple. For someone who lives on the outside, it's difficult to understand how every little thing is a huge deal for a guy like me. I simply don't know basic stuff. I don't know where to buy polo shirts or what slacks is. I don't know how to shave. I don't know how to behave in a bar. I don't know how a TV works. There is so much that I don't know. I don't even know what I don't know. I just don't find it in me to leave a culture I'm somewhat comfortable in for a culture I'm not familiar with, practically not when I'll most likely lose my wife and kids. While I yearn for freedom, I know that freedom comes with a price. History isn't kind to some who left the community. The suicide rate is high amongst those people. I'm prepared to move on if I'm forced to, but as long as I'm not pushed out I'll probably stay.
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Jul 19, 2018 07:58
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Heimish Yid posted:I've read Mendele as well as other Yiddish authors of that time, like Sholem Aleichem and I. L. Peretz. Those books are brilliant, funny and eye-opening. At the time when those books where published, religious Jews had to hide those books from prying eyes. Thank God for the internet, where I can read books freely. PM's require Platinum here, and it does not appear AlbieQuirky has plat.
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Jul 19, 2018 13:47
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Heimish Yid posted:Thanks for your tips and tricks. They are informative and amusing. You have access to a phone and, thusly, the internet. There's plenty of instructions for everything out there. Even a simple google image search is enough to give you an idea of what something is. If you're staying to keep your family together, then so be it. I just don't think you should stay for lack of access to information about how modern society works, because that can be fixed without you even having to go anywhere.
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Jul 19, 2018 14:27
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Heimish Yid posted:I've read Mendele as well as other Yiddish authors of that time, like Sholem Aleichem and I. L. Peretz. Those books are brilliant, funny and eye-opening. At the time when those books where published, religious Jews had to hide those books from prying eyes. Thank God for the internet, where I can read books freely. Awesome! Yiddish literature of the 19th and 20th century is just so great. I don't have platinum, so can't get PMs, alas.
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Jul 19, 2018 15:13
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Buried alive posted:You have access to a phone and, thusly, the internet. There's plenty of instructions for everything out there. Even a simple google image search is enough to give you an idea of what something is. If you're staying to keep your family together, then so be it. I just don't think you should stay for lack of access to information about how modern society works, because that can be fixed without you even having to go anywhere. The other thing I'd mention is that, coming from a very strictly controlled community with tons of social norms that are rigidly enforced, it might seem odd, but in the wider world, no one really cares what you wear or if you shave or how you behave when you go to a bar (unless you're harassing people, but you don't seem like the kind of man who would do that). At worst, people will think, "oh, I wonder why that guy has a big beard and a strange assortment of clothes? Maybe he's some kind of eccentric artist." And if someone takes offence to you for some reason, you'll probably never see that person again and it will have no effect on your life. I mean, the entirety of the dress code at my current job is "wear a shirt with a collar," and even a lot of my co-workers break that rule sometimes and it's no problem.
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Jul 19, 2018 16:08
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How does your community deal with LGBT folks? As one would expect from a conservative, insular, religious group?
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Jul 20, 2018 00:00
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Do you still strictly observe Shabbat, or do you sometimes do prohibited things, such as using your phone, in secret?
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Jul 20, 2018 02:27
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How on earth did you end up here, OP? Like, here as in a poster on Somethingisawful dot com LLC?
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Jul 20, 2018 03:20
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Can you settle in other communities? What would your wife think about moving outside of NY? I live in a rustbelt city that once had 6+ synagogues, now down to 1.5. The orthodox has 10 families regularly observant, 20~ish families as members, while the combined reform/reconstructionist/conservative synagogue has 250+ member. Are you able to leave the NY community and join a fun Jewish community?
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Jul 20, 2018 06:43
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PT6A posted:The other thing I'd mention is that, coming from a very strictly controlled community with tons of social norms that are rigidly enforced, it might seem odd, but in the wider world, no one really cares what you wear or if you shave or how you behave when you go to a bar (unless you're harassing people, but you don't seem like the kind of man who would do that). At worst, people will think, "oh, I wonder why that guy has a big beard and a strange assortment of clothes? Maybe he's some kind of eccentric artist." And if someone takes offence to you for some reason, you'll probably never see that person again and it will have no effect on your life. It's not about this detail or that aspect. It's about the entire culture. Me leaving is like an American moving to Russia. Can it be done? Of course. The American can Google every itty-bitty detail of the Russian culture. And most Russians won't even care. Still, it's difficult. You want to bland in. You don't want to be a misfit. It's human nature. Thanatosian posted:How does your community deal with LGBT folks? As one would expect from a conservative, insular, religious group? Exactly. Homosexuals are attention whores and sinners, and transgenders are crazy. But in my community it goes a step further. Even talking about it is tabbo. The whole issue is kinda non-existent. It isn't discussed openly. They don't even mention it in their news outlets. When the NY Marriage Equality Act passed or when the Supreme Court ruled that same-sex marriage is legal, there was no mention about it in the community newspapers. They'll only hint about it in political campaigns, endorsing candidates who oppose "obscene laws." PT6A posted:Do you still strictly observe Shabbat, or do you sometimes do prohibited things, such as using your phone, in secret? I violate the Sabbath here and there. I do use my phone on Shabbat, but not on a regular basis. I'm afraid of being caught by my wife. And having a technology-free day isn't that bad. Try it. You might like it... Gunshow Poophole posted:How on earth did you end up here, OP? Like, here as in a poster on Somethingisawful dot com LLC? You just said it. We love LLCs... I don't remember how I found this forum. But I've read some threads here over the years. Now I've decided that it'll be cool to talk about my life. So here I am. My Imaginary GF posted:Can you settle in other communities? What would your wife think about moving outside of NY? People in my community tend to reside next to their parents. My wife wouldn't move away. And joining a less-observant Jewish community is nearly as bad as leaving the fold altogether. Moreover, the large community has it advantages. For example: If I miss a prayer here and there, no one will notice. I'm just one of thousands. In a small community, on the other hand, every absence will be noticed. I'm hiding in public.
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Jul 20, 2018 15:21
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Have you heard that there are groups of ex-Satmars? They exist to help people who want to get out and to adjust, even down to little things like when to wear jeans or how to watch TV. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/30/magazine/the-high-price-of-leaving-ultra-orthodox-life.html https://www.footstepsorg.org I'm not saying to leave -- obviously your wife and children are extremely important to you. But if you do ever decide to leave, the outside world has people who will understand and help you. Have you read books like this? Obviously you can't leave them lying around, but if you have a New York or Brooklyn library card (free), you can read ebooks on any smartphone. https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/158130/ex-frum-memoirs
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Jul 20, 2018 22:16
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i like nice words
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What do you observe in your peers regarding dedication to the life. Are there even individuals who you suspect may not take this whole thing completely seriously as well? It would be unlikely that you are the literal only nonbeliever.
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Jul 21, 2018 09:38
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Are you happy? Are you planning to leave in the long-term, i.e. after you kids are grown up, for example? It's impossible for me to really know how I'd act in your situation, but the person I am now could never stand to live a lie for so long and remain ignorant of the world at large. I don't think I could face growing old and dying knowing that I lived within the strictures of something I don't even believe in. Not that it's necessarily worse to live the life you already lead compared to the 'norm'. Just I'd be too curious to know and see what else is out there. Also, a weird question, what do you do for holidays? Are there like, special resorts?
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Jul 21, 2018 13:35
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How do you know your wife is really into this religious lifestyle? You are keeping your yearnings for a different way of life from her. Is it not even a tiny possibility of her hiding her doubts or wants for change from you as well?
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Jul 21, 2018 13:55
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OP, have you considered asking a Reform congregation rabbi as to what to do for the possibility of leaving? I know that there are organizations connected to some congregations that help shelter women who leave Satmar or other ultra-orthodox communities to get them integrated, help them obtain a legal divorce (a get is a different matter altogether) and otherwise. If you're comfortable over PM, I am an atheist Jew out of Northern NJ and can ask around on your behalf over a geographic area to see about opening up discussions.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:49
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