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Flip strikes me as a guy that isn't impressed by Bully and probably said something to the effect. I like Flip, he doesn't give a poo poo what comes out of his mouth which is both a positive and a negative for him. Which is another reason Bully Ray needs to be shot into the sun. Flip gordon is a combat vet, built like a gently caress machine, can put together decent promos and matches. What he needs are people willing to help him perfect his craft.
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Jun 15, 2019 21:28
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They were bleeding talent because of WWE but they still could’ve done a hell of a lot better upgrading talent instead of bringing in poo poo like Vinny Marseglia, Brian Milonas, Josh Woods, etc. There’s plenty of people out there but the front office is so poo poo that nobody wants to go there
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Jun 16, 2019 00:17
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https://twitter.com/SoDuTw/status/1140037524028571649
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Jun 16, 2019 00:27
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Imagine being a less interesting product than the Nick Aldis Vanity Belt Tour
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Jun 16, 2019 00:29
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NWA World Heavyweight Champion Matt Taven... 
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Jun 16, 2019 00:58
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bully ray and michael elgin should have lots of 30 minute battles that harken back to the old days of wrestling when everybody in the audience was that king hippo semi-human guy that was at a tna show once
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Jun 16, 2019 00:59
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Just out of curiosity I looked up 2014 Final Battle to see who from that show is still with the company Jay Briscoe vs. Adam Cole Bobby Fish/Kyle O'Reilly vs. Alex Shelley/KUSHIDA Jay Lethal vs. Matt Sydal Moose vs. RD Evans Young Bucks & ACH vs. The Addiction & Cedric Alexander Michael Elgin vs. Tommaso Ciampa Roderick Strong vs. Adam Page Hanson vs. Jimmy Jacobs vs. Mark Briscoe vs. Caprice Coleman Four people on the entire main card of 22 wrestlers are still working for ROH five years later
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Jun 16, 2019 01:04
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Benne posted:Just out of curiosity I looked up 2014 Final Battle to see who from that show is still with the company WWE TLC (2014) Bray Wyatt d. Dean Ambrose Rusev d. Jack Swagger Ryback d. Kane Nikki Bella d. AJ Lee John Cena d. Seth Rollins Big Show d. Erick Rowan The Usos d. Damien Mizdow & The Miz Dolph Ziggler d. Luke Harper New Day d. Goldust & Stardust WWE has 15 out of the 22 names here technically signed, though if you take out people who are effectively retired (Kane, Big Show, Nikki Bella, John Cena) and people who are essentially MIA/waiting out their contracts (Harper, Rusev), you're down to 9/22. Wrestle Kingdom 9 (January 2015) Tanahashi d. Okada Nakamura d. Ibushi AJ Styles d. Naito Goto & Shibata d. Gallows & Anderson Kenny Omega d. Taguchi Makabe d. Ishii Suzuki d. Sakuraba Marufuji, TMDK, and Toru Yano d. DBS Jr, Archer, Shelton, and Iizuka Tenzan, Kojima, and Honma d. Fale, Yujiro, and Jeff Jarrett Fish/O'Reilly d. Koslov/Romero, Shelley/Kushida, and the Young Bucks Not counting the Rumble This is a much bigger card (38 people!) and NJPW five years later still has 17 out of the 38. All of this is to say: 1) Change is inevitable. 2) ROH still got turbofucked by turnover and didn't prepare for it very well. 3) I forgot that loving Jeff Jarrett went Bullet Club 4) I also completely forgot that The Great Sanada in James Storm's Wyatt Family was a thing.
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Jun 16, 2019 01:32
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Benne posted:Just out of curiosity I looked up 2014 Final Battle to see who from that show is still with the company It is scary how many of them are now with NXT. It is also surprising that as many are with Impact as are with AEW.
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Jun 16, 2019 01:32
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if only someone could have predicted that overly relying on dudes who obviously weren't loyal or staying/foreign promotions instead of building new talent was gonna hurt ROH in the long run/near future.
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Jun 16, 2019 01:46
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Edge & Christian posted:Out of further curiosity I looked at the nearest to Final Battle 2014 cards from WWE and NJPW (I tried TNA but they were barely doing PPVs by the end of 2014, their last show before this was a Bound for Glory co-promoted with Wrestle-1, which skews the fact that the only people from that card still in Impact are technically Tommy Dreamer, Jessica Havok, and TJP) They have half of TMDK
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Jun 16, 2019 02:03
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18 out of 38, then! Did they get TM or DK?
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Jun 16, 2019 02:09
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Edge & Christian posted:18 out of 38, then! I believe due to newLegacyInc canon MIkey Nicholls is the Big DK.
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Jun 16, 2019 02:35
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Djarum posted:It is scary how many of them are now with NXT. It is also surprising that as many are with Impact as are with AEW. It's no accident that I picked a show from late 2014, that was the period when NXT really blew up as a trendy faux-indie destination and big names like Steen and Devitt were making the jump. ROH really should've seen which way the wind was blowing and either made a stronger attempt to keep their guys, or put more effort into restocking the bench and having guys ready to elevate whenever Hunter came calling. They did neither, and five years of half-assed complacency have brought us to where we are now.
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Jun 16, 2019 04:37
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Benne posted:It's no accident that I picked a show from late 2014, that was the period when NXT really blew up as a trendy faux-indie destination and big names like Steen and Devitt were making the jump. ROH really should've seen which way the wind was blowing and either made a stronger attempt to keep their guys, or put more effort into restocking the bench and having guys ready to elevate whenever Hunter came calling. They did neither, and five years of half-assed complacency have brought us to where we are now. They spent 4 years making bank off The Elite. It's crazy to think ROH somehow did a bad job as a business from 2014 to 2018. A four year run of growth and record business is a long time. It left them needing to rebuild in 2019, but that is more because they weren't looking forward in mid 2018 not late 2014.
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Jun 16, 2019 04:47
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Yeah, the issue (or at least the big current one) was that they knew they were losing the Bucks and Daniels for a while and made very little steps* to try minimizing the damage that would bring *Every time I want/try to be polite here, because by all accounts stuff like getting Rush for a year Should have worked for at least a bit of a boost in interest, it almost immediately gets cancelled out by them having him doing nothing noteworthy and his contract's already half-up. You had Marty (who's one of their most over people) in a world title match with half a year left on his own deal, and they didn't pull the trigger despite having done it to try to get people to stick around with far less time left on previous other occasions; O'Reilly got it on his literal last month there. They've had chances to at least try to fix things, even with what their own situation caused them to have left over in the aftermath, yet still nothing
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Jun 16, 2019 04:58
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Misreading All In is probably the start of the current downfall, the MSG stuff souring the New Japan side was just the icing on the cake
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Jun 16, 2019 05:05
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Did ROH really get heat for the MSG stuff? Obviously it didn’t go over well with the talent but iirc the dirtsheets said NJPW brass wasn’t fazed It was pretty clear in ‘14 that WWE would outbid ROH easily for anyone it cared to go for, even before they started going for questionably valuable geeks like Martinez. They were in the unenviable position of a regional TEW fed - anyone they got over risked being bought out. Once they’d pushed their top company men (Lethal / Briscoe) there was nowhere to go but down. Even when the Elite were drawing, was there anyone else on the active roster who looked good? Still, they have a fair few good in-ring talents that they are wasting right now - the luchadores and Cobb, mainly. It’s not like they’re hopeless. The Bouncers and TK O’Ryan are one thing but there’s no excuse for their best workers to be as stone cold as they are. They just jobbed Cobb to Shane Taylor, aka the super heavyweight variant of Marty Jannette
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Jun 16, 2019 05:19
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It could be worse, Moose could still be around
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Jun 16, 2019 05:31
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No solid news of heat but the fact New Japan talent is now saying they don't want to work ROH to the sheets is a pretty good sign they are pissed off, and while the reason of over exposure does make sense you have to think the worked shoot ruining the start of the Tanahashi match is what has them saying that openly
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Jun 16, 2019 05:53
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If RoH was smart they would have chose one or two guys to rally around and keep. Personally I’d keep KOR but hindsight is what it is. RoH’s gimmick was getting 4-5 years out of a guy before they left for WWE or formerly TNA. The problem is that WWE got spooked and greedy from mainly New Japan and went on a signing spree of anyone and everyone for the last several years. Then when AEW became a thing it became a mad dash to get everyone with a future under a contract. I think the thing that hurt them the most is losing both Punishment and Hangman in basically one go. They had put a major effort behind both of them and were the next stars for the promotion.
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Jun 16, 2019 06:38
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MassRafTer posted:They spent 3 years making bank off The nWo. It's crazy to think WCW somehow did a bad job as a business from 1996 to 1998. A three year run of growth and record business is a long time. It left them needing to rebuild in 1999, but that is more because they weren't looking forward in mid 1998 not late 1996.
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Jun 16, 2019 16:12
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Djarum posted:If RoH was smart they would have chose one or two guys to rally around and keep. Personally I’d keep KOR but hindsight is what it is. they did do this, they bet a lot of money on Matt Taven and Dalton Castle being the next big stars for ROH
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Jun 16, 2019 16:18
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Yeah, this mostly check out.
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Jun 16, 2019 16:20
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OJ MIST 2 THE DICK posted:they did do this, they bet a lot of money on Matt Taven and Dalton Castle being the next big stars for ROH Dalton was a star a couple years ago. They hosed around and waited to put the title on him until he cooled off and then he got injured. The Matt Taven thing is just sad. I know it is fun to bash him but his transformation to the new character/gimmick was great. RoH dropped the ball entirely in promoting it to the audience at all and getting him over. It didn't help that they did the Dalton Castle feud way too early before he got the title so it had zero interest to most people as well as happening when all of the Elite were still doing their thing so it was relegated to the low/mid card. If they were truly making him into a star and were looking to elevate him non of this should have happened. I just think they don't have any one in the tank that they think can go anywhere and it is pretty evident. The well has been dried and they have been slacking in developing their own home grown talent for the last 5+ years. Still it is amazing that they have had Marty and Rush all year and could have used them to either hotshot or get people who are staying over and neither has happened. Someone brought up giving the booking to Billy Corgan and Dave Lagana which is a very interesting idea. I am not sure if their would do it but based on how the NWA shows have gone so far it would be an upgrade at least.
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Jun 16, 2019 16:46
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karmicknight posted:Yeah, this mostly check out. Yeah, it seems mostly correct as it relates to both WCW and ROH. I think promotions should ALWAYS be thinking about the future though. They should be thinking about who is going to be a star next year, who is going to be a star in 5 years, were do we look to get our stars in 10 years, etc. Not developing more people while the Elite were drawing was a mistake. Not using Cobb, Rush, Marty, Tavin, and Dalton to their fullest potential during the year they knew the Elite were leaving was a bigger mistake. Not using those guys to their fullest potential RIGHT NOW is just mind boggling.
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Jun 16, 2019 16:53
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Djarum posted:Someone brought up giving the booking to Billy Corgan and Dave Lagana which is a very interesting idea. I am not sure if their would do it but based on how the NWA shows have gone so far it would be an upgrade at least. man it would get so much worse.
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Jun 17, 2019 02:30
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ROH feels like it's got a similar general theme to their problem as Impact, just different in almost all specifics. Impact can't get past the failures and negative inertia of TNA while ROH has been in the same place or spinning their wheels for so long that opinions have already been formed and the one thing they had really going for them (The Elite and legitimate cross promotion with NJPW) is all but gone which just reinforces that ROH is in their rut. You can't be the little promotion that could forever, eventually you're the promotion that couldn't.
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Jun 17, 2019 03:48
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Luke72w posted:ROH feels like it's got a similar general theme to their problem as Impact, just different in almost all specifics. Impact can't get past the failures and negative inertia of TNA while ROH has been in the same place or spinning their wheels for so long that opinions have already been formed and the one thing they had really going for them (The Elite and legitimate cross promotion with NJPW) is all but gone which just reinforces that ROH is in their rut. You can't be the little promotion that could forever, eventually you're the promotion that couldn't. its less inertia and more like ROH is Kane and AEW is the chestburster
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Jun 17, 2019 04:09
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I wish the Bucks were as cool as a phallic parasite alien
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Jun 17, 2019 04:10
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I forget, is Sinclair still not willing to spend money on ROH beyond what's needed to keep them producing content for TV? I mean, I've seen a few ROH matches recently and it all looks fine in terms of production quality and so forth. I was just curious if that was still a thing or if it was just something people were using as an excuse as to why ROH is still stuck in a rut.
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Jun 17, 2019 04:11
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I forget, is Sinclair still not willing to spend money on ROH beyond what's needed to keep them producing content for TV? I mean, I've seen a few ROH matches recently and it all looks fine in terms of production quality and so forth. I was just curious if that was still a thing or if it was just something people were using as an excuse as to why ROH is still stuck in a rut. I mean, they did open the pursestrings enough to win bidding wars for Rush and Bandido (whom ROH have done fuckall with, predictably enough). But for the most part, Sinclair still sees ROH as cheap in-house programming to fill their late-night timeslots, and there's very little indication they have bigger ambitions beyond that.
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Jun 17, 2019 04:24
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I forget, is Sinclair still not willing to spend money on ROH beyond what's needed to keep them producing content for TV? I mean, I've seen a few ROH matches recently and it all looks fine in terms of production quality and so forth. I was just curious if that was still a thing or if it was just something people were using as an excuse as to why ROH is still stuck in a rut. nah, they more or less managed to whiff on talent and angles even worse than WWE has over the past 4 or 5 years, and while they had talent in reserve, that talent has continually left and the last bit left a giant gaping wound I think I broke down all the previous Top Prospect tournaments, and prior to the 2017 tournament, only one of the five previous winners was still with the company (Taven) with the rest having left (Mike Bennett to TNA and then NXT/WWE, Hanson to NXT, Dijak to NXT, Lio Rush to NXT) and one of the previous five runner ups of those are still around (Will Ferrara who has spent years as a opening match jobber,) and the rest have all left ROH. (KOR and Rowe to NXT, TaDarius Thomas retired or does indies, and in my favorite, in the year he was a runner up top prospect, Brian Fury retired after a 16 year career) Some of the 2017 guys are still around, but they didn't bother running a tournament in 2018 or 2019. (Usually its a January thing, so there's still a chance it could happen later this year, but I'm not holding my breath)
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Jun 17, 2019 04:37
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Dijak should not be written off as talent stolen by WWE. ROH never used him well and his best work was in any northeast indie.Benne posted:I mean, they did open the pursestrings enough to win bidding wars for Rush and Bandido (whom ROH have done fuckall with, predictably enough) 
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Jun 17, 2019 09:15
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ROH signed Jonathan Gresham and Maria Manic, per PWInisder
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Jun 17, 2019 19:58
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Maria Manic once(and might still be) dating Shlak so she's a good decision maker. If Gresham isn't world champ by Final Battle this company is dumb and dead to me.
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Jun 17, 2019 20:03
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UltimoDragonQuest posted:Dijak should not be written off as talent stolen by WWE. ROH never used him well and his best work was in any northeast indie. I think that was one of the things that killed my interest in MLW. They spent a lot of energy building up Park vs Rush and then... poof.
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Jun 17, 2019 20:51
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I don't know if this is still relevant to the conversation, but I was at the ECW Sportsfest show on Staten Island that ended in a riot cause of the Dudley's. They let Joel Gertner go out and do like 5-10 minutes bashing Italians in front of a 90% Jersey Shore Guido crowd. Then when the Dudley's came out with Big Dick leading them, they were yelling the same poo poo at everyone and someone thought punching Big Dick was a good idea. Dick immediately goes over the barrier after whoever he could get his hands on, with Bubba and D-Von following swinging at everyone. The rest of the boys in the back managed to finally get them out of the crowd, and then the cops showed up and broke everything up. My favorite part was a few days later, Paul releases a statement blaming Sportsfest for selling beer, and Sportsfest blamed ECW for selling beer. Both sides claimed they didn't know the other would be selling beer at the event. It was also the last wrestling event at Sportsfest, which had a wonderful history of people booking shows and claiming that whoever the big free agents at the moment were coming (Sid Vicious, Ahmed Johnson, Savio Vega, Doink among others) who somehow eternally got stuck in traffic and never showed.
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Jun 18, 2019 04:55
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coconono posted:Maria Manic once(and might still be) dating Shlak so she's a good decision maker. Maria and Shlak split a while ago. She's a bit of a mess, but I do think she's a good person. Her and Nick Gage are kind of similar in a way.
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Jun 19, 2019 00:45
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Is she the really tall lady who follows Nick Aldis around? edit: No, that's Kamilla Kaine. I guess I got confused by alliteration.
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Jun 19, 2019 00:55
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