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Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


Are there generally-accepted and agreed-upon cutoff dates for various baseball eras?

e: I'm having a very difficult time parsing Will White's 680 IP in 1879, as well as his 1.99 ERA and 46.6% LOB% that same season

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Bobby Cox
Nov 3, 2006


College Slice

Sydin posted:

The deadball era was insane. I looked up the linked Ed Walsh page and in his 1910 year he was 18-20 with 396.2 IP. That didn't even lead the league and was a down year, his best was 1908 when he was 40-15 with a 1.42 ERA over 464 IP

Nothing beats the Hoss-man:

Epic High Five
Jun 5, 2004





Poque posted:

Are there generally-accepted and agreed-upon cutoff dates for various baseball eras?

4/20/69 is generally agreed upon as the split between dorkball and niceball

Popete
Oct 6, 2009

This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs

Grimey Drawer

I'm pretty sure old timey baseball was basically just slow pitch softball so pitching numbers from that era are irrelevant.

MrMidnight
Aug 2, 2006

Jesus, I like him very much, but he no help with curveball.


Bobby Cox posted:

Nothing beats the Hoss-man:



Lol he even has saves. Give a guy a break!

Good Dog
Oct 16, 2008

Who threw this cat at me?

Clapping Larry

Bobby Cox posted:

Nothing beats the Hoss-man:



Was this back when walking a guy counted as an error on the pitcher? Half of his runs allowed are unearned. That seems like a massive percentage compared to modern times.

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


Good Dog posted:

Was this back when walking a guy counted as an error on the pitcher? Half of his runs allowed are unearned. That seems like a massive percentage compared to modern times.

<Tyler Chatwood> *cums*

is this possibly when nobody had mitts, so like every ball was dropped?

e: the 1884 leader for errors among pitchers had 38 but there were dozens and dozens of people with 60+, including shortstop Lou Say with 102 in 94 games

New Concept Hole
Oct 10, 2012

東方動的


The team had 398 errors

Good for 2nd best fewest

E: League Field% was .899

New Concept Hole fucked around with this message at Aug 2, 2018 around 19:05

The Berzerker
Feb 24, 2006

treat me like a dog


The Blue Jays are starting Tyler Clippard today. Mariners, this is your weekend to gain some ground. lol

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"

The Berzerker posted:

The Blue Jays are starting Tyler Clippard today. Mariners, this is your weekend to gain some ground. lol

We'd be happy to, if the As could actually lose some games.

Bobby Cox
Nov 3, 2006


College Slice

Good Dog posted:

Was this back when walking a guy counted as an error on the pitcher? Half of his runs allowed are unearned. That seems like a massive percentage compared to modern times.

That would be wild and explain all of the suppressed ERAs of the Dead-ball Era, but I haven't read anything like that (I could be wrong though). As far as I know, the only controversy for Hoss in that season is whether he had 59 wins and a save or 60 wins: it looks like he came into a game and finished the last 4 innings and was awarded the win, but nowadays that'd be a save. Official scorers were also looser with who got the win back then and today it would've been the starter who pitched the required amount of innings. Looks like BBRef sides with the former, but I don't know where that second save comes from.

I'm in the camp that we probably shouldn't toy with past records to account for modern stats that weren't around back then but w/e, you do you baseball scholars.

Good Dog
Oct 16, 2008

Who threw this cat at me?

Clapping Larry

Bobby Cox posted:

That would be wild and explain all of the suppressed ERAs of the Dead-ball Era, but I haven't read anything like that (I could be wrong though). As far as I know, the only controversy for Hoss in that season is whether he had 59 wins and a save or 60 wins: it looks like he came into a game and finished the last 4 innings and was awarded the win, but nowadays that'd be a save. Official scorers were also looser with who got the win back then and today it would've been the starter who pitched the required amount of innings. Looks like BBRef sides with the former, but I don't know where that second save comes from.

I'm in the camp that we probably shouldn't toy with past records to account for modern stats that weren't around back then but w/e, you do you baseball scholars.

Maybe I made that up. I can't find anything to back up that walks were considered errors on the pitcher. I swear I remember reading that walks were not seen a strength of a hitter but just the weakness of a pitcher.

It does seem to read that it used to take as many as 8 balls for a walk back in the 1880s. In 1884 the National League changed it to 6 balls, then to 7 in 1886, then to 5 in 1887 and finally to 4 in 1889.

Thom P. Tiers
May 29, 2008

Red Birds
Red Ass
Red Text

Rob Manfred you need to get on this. Restore the sanctity of the game, 8 balls please.

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"

I remember reading that at one point there were 4 strikes. Was that real?

Thom P. Tiers
May 29, 2008

Red Birds
Red Ass
Red Text

Big Beefy Canada Boy can also do this:

https://www.mlb.com/video/oneills-i...ab/c-2338306483

GalacticAcid
Apr 8, 2013

NEW YORK VALUES


The Rules have always been exactly the same. Baseball sprouted from the social ether as a complete and perfected contest.

-the baseball primordialist

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


Some Numbers posted:

I remember reading that at one point there were 4 strikes. Was that real?

I'm not sure about that, but there was an era where fouls did not count as strikes.

New Concept Hole
Oct 10, 2012

東方動的


Thom P. Tiers posted:

Rob Manfred you need to get on this. Restore the sanctity of the game, 8 balls please.

Make it 8 balls when no one is on, but 1 ball when someone's on base.

Tony Phillips
Feb 9, 2006


Everyone should check out “Fifty-Nine in ‘84” about Radbourne. It’s a great read.

Same author’s “Summer of Beer and Whiskey” is also great. Read both if you have any interest in old time crazy ball.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

The Berzerker posted:

The Blue Jays are starting Tyler Clippard today. Mariners, this is your weekend to gain some ground. lol

And they still only have the 10th worst record. This complete wreck of a season and they won't even get a good pick.

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"

The Berzerker posted:

The Blue Jays are starting Tyler Clippard today. Mariners, this is your weekend to gain some ground. lol

I just checked and the Mariners are starting the shambling corpse of Felix Hernandez, so we're probably not in good shape to win.

GalacticAcid
Apr 8, 2013

NEW YORK VALUES


https://twitter.com/MLB/status/1025109774348611584

Eye-popping outfield assist.

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair



Wow, and Garcia was moving, too.

Pancakes
May 21, 2001



Big Super Slapstick Hunk

N: Rick Ankiel is allegedly considering trying pitching again at the age of 39.
V: I would be so happy.

Julio Cruz
May 19, 2006



Poque posted:

2004 Ben Sheets: 12-14, 8.0

deGrom has 5.2 fWAR through 21 starts/138.1IP, so he's going to be very close to Sheets if he keeps his performance up over his last 10-12 starts.

e: B-R has Sheets' 2004 as 7.2 WAR and deGrom currently at 6.5, so he's almost certainly going to win by bWAR.

ee: though they have '74 Matlack as 9.1.

Julio Cruz fucked around with this message at Aug 2, 2018 around 20:29

ChiTownEddie
Mar 26, 2010

Awesome beer, no pants.
Join the Legion.


https://twitter.com/based_ball/stat...116041007910912

I had to look this up, Dee Gordon has just 6 walks in 430 PAs. WHAT THE HECK. And here I've been mocking Javy all season.

Mike_V
Jul 31, 2004

Let's* go Blackhawks! The Blues and Red Wings suck.

Pancakes posted:

N: Rick Ankiel is allegedly considering trying pitching again at the age of 39.
V: I would be so happy.

Sign him, Mo.

Tom Gorman
Apr 30, 2004

Out here, everything hurts

Buglord

I found a magical frog who granted me a wish and I wished for Rick Ankiel to come back as a knuckleballer at age 39

Shiroc
May 16, 2009


ChiTownEddie posted:

https://twitter.com/based_ball/stat...116041007910912

I had to look this up, Dee Gordon has just 6 walks in 430 PAs. WHAT THE HECK. And here I've been mocking Javy all season.

I was at the game yesterday and I thought his average and OBP looked way too close. Now it all makes sense.

Joey Freshwater
Jun 20, 2004

WHO THE FOOK IS JAMEIS WINSTON

Dunny come at me with no stupid shite, kay?

'Twas a rich piece o'Harvard know-how I laid 'pon dem blokes today


Grimey Drawer

Pancakes posted:

N: Rick Ankiel is allegedly considering trying pitching again at the age of 39.
V: I would be so happy.

Huge fan of Rick's, even moreso after I read his book

If y'all haven't read it, it's called The Phenomenon: Pressure, the Yips, and the Pitch that Changed My Life - it's so good

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU


Bobby Cox posted:

Nothing beats the Hoss-man:



That's an average of OVER nine innings per game played. And he was never pulled from a game he started!

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"

CubsWoo posted:

That's an average of OVER nine innings per game played. And he was never pulled from a game he started!

When you consider he had 11 shutouts and gave up less than 3 runs a game, it makes sense that games would go over 9 innings.

Some Numbers fucked around with this message at Aug 2, 2018 around 22:01

BigBallChunkyTime
Nov 25, 2011

Kyle Schwarber: World Series hero, Beefy Lad, better than you.



Illegal Hen

Some Numbers posted:

I remember reading that at one point there were 4 strikes. Was that real?

Yes.

Also at one point the batter was allowed to tell the pitcher where to throw it, the umpires sat in comfy rocking chairs behind the plate, and you were fined six cents for cursing at the umpire. Also you were considered out if the ball was fielded after only one bounce.

This was like early 1870s. The "mound" was more of a rectangular box, not unlike the batters box, where the pitcher could stand wherever he wanted, creating some crazy angles for the hitter. The pitcher was also 50 feet away instead of 60 feet 6 inches. And it was flat ground.

bawfuls
Oct 28, 2009



Sydin posted:

Who's the frontrunner for NL RotY? Is it a goddamn Dodger again? Please don't let it be a goddamn Dodger again.
I know this is pages ago, but unfortunately Walker Buehler got hurt and missed some time. So while he's at the top of NL rookie pitchers in fWAR, he'll need a hot final two months to pass Soto.

But it very well could be a Dodger again this year if he keeps pitching like he did this week against the Brewers (7 IP, 5 H, 1 ER, 0 BB, 7 K). Kid is legit.

bawfuls
Oct 28, 2009



Poque posted:

Are there generally-accepted and agreed-upon cutoff dates for various baseball eras?

e: I'm having a very difficult time parsing Will White's 680 IP in 1879, as well as his 1.99 ERA and 46.6% LOB% that same season
Simple rules of thumb:

-Before 1893, it's not even the same game due to significant rules changes. I think of pre-1893 as primordial proto-baseball, not even Deadball era. 1889 is the first year where it's 4 balls to a walk (before that it was as many as 9, then reduced over a span of years), and 1893 was the change from a flat pitching box defined by it's front boundary, to a pitching mound with rubber (which defines the pitcher distance by the back of where he starts his delivery, not the front beyond which he can't cross). Also the bat had to be round and couldn't have a flat face anymore. All the changes since then are more subtle.

-Deadball is roughly 1893-1920. Ruth's first power breakout was 1919 (but even that was only 29 dingers), and Ray Chapman died from a fastball to the head in 1920, which is what precipitated the change to using a new ball any time the existing one got dirty. This change accounts for most of the post-deadball increase in offense, though they started winding the ball tighter too.

People sometimes use 1903 as a cutoff too, because that's the year of the first World Series. Or they use 1901, because that's when the AL was formed and it was the first year of the original 16 teams which all still exist today in one form or another (though there's debate about those Orioles "becoming" the Yankees). But as far as comparing players to their context, 1893 and 1920 are the relevant boundaries IMO.

bawfuls fucked around with this message at Aug 3, 2018 around 00:11

BigBallChunkyTime
Nov 25, 2011

Kyle Schwarber: World Series hero, Beefy Lad, better than you.



Illegal Hen

bawfuls posted:

I know this is pages ago, but unfortunately Walker Buehler got hurt and missed some time. So while he's at the top of NL rookie pitchers in fWAR, he'll need a hot final two months to pass Soto.

But it very well could be a Dodger again this year if he keeps pitching like he did this week against the Brewers (7 IP, 5 H, 1 ER, 0 BB, 7 K). Kid is legit.

Never trust a man whose first name is a last name.

Ammat The Ankh
Sep 7, 2010

库昊




https://twitter.com/GrantBrisbee/st...168636284039168

Giants players are committed to forcing Bochy to play rookies every day by destroying themselves.

bawfuls
Oct 28, 2009



Your Taint posted:

This was like early 1870s. The "mound" was more of a rectangular box, not unlike the batters box, where the pitcher could stand wherever he wanted, creating some crazy angles for the hitter. The pitcher was also 50 feet away instead of 60 feet 6 inches. And it was flat ground.
This distinction is deceptive. The *front* boundary of the pitcher's box was 50 feet away, and the pitcher had to remain in the box for his entire delivery. Now the rubber is 60'6" but the pitcher can stride as far as he likes during his delivery. The actual release point on average did not move a ton when they made the change, and was probably less significant than the change from flat ground to a mound (which happened at the same time of course).

bawfuls fucked around with this message at Aug 3, 2018 around 00:19

Tom Gorman
Apr 30, 2004

Out here, everything hurts

Buglord

Catcher's gloves pre-1900 were really something



Almost as amazing as the fact that NHL goalies didn't wear face protection for the first 40 years

Old timey equipment is neat

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BigBallChunkyTime
Nov 25, 2011

Kyle Schwarber: World Series hero, Beefy Lad, better than you.



Illegal Hen

Tom Gorman posted:

Catcher's gloves pre-1900 were really something



Almost as amazing as the fact that NHL goalies didn't wear face protection for the first 40 years

Old timey equipment is neat

I had an old coffee table book that I can't find online that was all about private collections of old baseball things (cards, equipment, tickets, you name it). It was easily the most fascinating baseball book i've ever read. I'm searching for it now and I'll link you if I find it.

edit: I FOUND IT!!

It's here. https://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/sm...ASABEgJ89_D_BwE

You will probably find it cheaper elsewhere, but if you like old baseball poo poo as much as I do, you will LOVE this book. Take it from me, a random internet guy that you may or may not like: You will NOT regret buying this book if you're into that sort of thing. I'm legit pissed I lost this book in a move. I may buy it again.

BigBallChunkyTime fucked around with this message at Aug 3, 2018 around 01:04

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