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BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Late Edit 5/19/2020: That respite only lasted for a day, and was ultimately stayed pending an appeal.
Legal Update 4/24/2020
Judge Benitez, hallowed be his name, has issued a preliminary injunction on Ammo Background Checks and the prohibition against importing/purchasing ammo from out of state vendors. See order/opinion here. Go out and purchase your ammo unharassed. Feel free to ask questions in thread as this case will have (and is currently being) discussed.



UNDER HEAVY CONSTRUCTION
Finished Reserving Posts, so feel free to post.
Please excuse our dust. Need to still do nice formatting on what we have and adding more content in the coming weeks.


“But Newsom was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of gunowners, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to California and to Sacramento that was his home. There he took up again his great Gubernatorial Campaign in The Capitol, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Newsom the Terrible few could endure.”
(Yeah this doesn’t exactly track but gently caress it run this gimmick into the ground. Also thanks again to Rubber Slug for this awesome photoshop )

Introduction: The Thread Formerly Known as “Gays, Bays and AKs
(Old Thread)
Welcome to the San Francisco California Shooting Thread. For some reason you were either born here and cursed recently with a want for firearms, or you lived elsewhere with a want for firearms and now have made the unfortunate mistake of moving here. Congratulations, you’re in one of the most firearm hostile states in the United States. It’s all good though; We’re here to help you navigate the labyrinthine gun control laws and prevent you from becoming A Felon. That’s actually the primary focus of this thread (as well as discussion of upcoming laws/regs), but we also hope this time around to be able to cover available shooting ranges, some FFL/Dealer recommendations, maybe organize a meetup or two (After we’re all done hunkering down for the end of the Assault Weapon Registration trying not to become felons), stuff like that. Feel free to ask any questions that you might have and chill. Please be chill; if not being chill is your thing, there’s another forum for that.


Disclaimer: What? You thought there could be a California Shooting Thread without a Disclaimer? Everything in California causes cancer and everything in California needs a disclaimer.
Nothing in this thread or that is posted should be considered legal advice or some sort of legal product for consumption. Everything posted is for educational or entertainment purposes. Nobody here is a lawyer (You’ll get to know the term IANAL: I Am Not A Lawyer), and certainly not your lawyer. Actually, I think there may be one lawyer on this sub forum, in which case they’re still not your lawyer, you’re not their client, and nothing they tell you is considered legal advice. If I missed any “magic words” for “Nobody here is liable for their opinions, suggestions, advice, etc.” as related to firearms and firearm laws (or anything else really), assume they were said. This is a dead gay comedy forum just like the rest of site, and we’re all just trying to stay pretty chill while helping out our fellow goons Not Become Felons as best as we can. Good Luck!

Additionally:

Cyrano4747 posted:

I’m just going to self quote from the deals thread to head this off a little bit:

"I'm a little late to the party, but let's not openly advocate violating laws here. There's probably room for a whole discussion about whether or not it's justifiable to ignore laws that you don't like, but that's probably a gun control thread kind of topic rather than a deals thread."

Some laws suck. Anyone who has sped a bit on an empty street at 3AM or didn’t total up their online purchases for the year to submit sales tax to their state has worked around them. Not to mention every kid who ever snuck a beer or every college student pre-legalization who smoked a joint.

I have a LOT of sympathy, but as an unpaid Internet janitor I don’t need that on the forum. Not because I’m afraid of CA DOJ throwing a subpoena at me, but because I don’t want this to be a community where it’s cool to ask about illegal poo poo. It’s just a can of worms I don’t want to open.

With all that out of the way, let’s get into the nitty gritty...

Purchasing Firearms: How does a goon become John Wick?

Well I can’t help you with the John Wick thing, but I can give you a run down on the firearm purchasing process in California. California is, unfortunately, one of the more annoying states to purchase firearms in, but I guess it could be worse. If you moved here, my goondolences. Before we continue though, the first rule of buying firearms in California:

The California Penal Code and Code of Regulations say a lot of things about how and what you can and can’t buy in California, however the FFL/Dealer always has the final say on if they want to process a transaction, and how they want to process it. You can point to calguns posts, recite Penal Code, print out pages of CCR, and talk about what your Ex-Seal-Delta-Team-16-Cop-Friend told you until you’re blue in the face, but the FFL/Dealer decides on if they want to proceed and how they want to proceed. They may even proceed in a manner that is not consistent with the Penal Code or the Code of Regulations, or even proceed in a illogical (or illegal) manner, however that’s probably on them, their business, and their license. Hence, you should always check with a FFL/Dealer before purchasing something. Ordering that AR-15 bare lower receiver at 3:15AM is a bad idea without talking to FFL/Dealer first (or at the very least knowing what they will say). You will save yourself and the dealer a lot of headache. Moving on...

How Can I Buy?

There’s 3 modes of purchase generally
  1. Buy at a local brick and mortar firearm dealer: You can go in, complete the paperwork, and get your firearm after the waiting period. There will be a minimum “DROS Fee” of $25 ($19 DROS, $1 Firearm Safety, $5 Safety/Enforcement). Additionally, the dealer may charge a handling fee (There is no set amount, Dealers can charge whatever), though it’s not uncommon for dealers to drop the handling fee if they’re selling you the firearm.
  2. Buy from an online retailer: Despite what you may have heard, you cannot have the firearm shipped to your house.
    Instead, it must be shipped to a local brick and mortar firearm dealer/FFL or a “kitchen table” FFL (These people are a godsend, ask your friends). From there, you do same paperwork as if you bought it at a local dealer and the same waiting period, along with fees and sales tax as if you bought it at one of those local dealers. Expect a handling fee of anywhere from $40 - $100, hence it’s best to ask Dealers about this, plus additional fee per firearm in the same transaction.
  3. Private Party Transfer aka “PPT”: This means that an individual sells a firearm to another individual. In California, this must be done at the place of business of a dealer/FFL. This process has fixed fee set by the state (DROS + Handling = $25 - $35; up to $10 per each additional firearm in same transfer), and furthermore, PPT is one of the very few means of acquiring a handgun that is not on the California Handgun Roster (but meets all other state legal requirements). Also no sales tax.


-> Paperwork (and Safe Handling)
Edit: Recently updated from info from this post.

First off, you’re going to need a Firearm Safety Certificate (FSC). You’ll need to pass a test with 30 questions (20 Multiple Choice, 10 T/F); 23 correct answers is required to pass, though it’s fairly easy and most people finish in less than 15 minutes. Study guide (as well as the Instructor’s Manual) can be found here. Dealers/FFLs (or Certified Instructors) may charge you $15-$25 to take the test and print you a FSC, and should you lose it, it’ll be $5 to replace it. FSCs are good for 5 years. Most active/former Military/LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) are exempt from FSCs, as well as Estate Executors for handling Estate transfers. A full list of exemptions can be found in the FSC Instructor’s Manual starting on page 3.

Second, if you’re purchasing a Long Gun (Rifle/Shotgun), you’re going to need to bring your California Driver’s License or ID Card (or Military ID with Permanent Duty Station Orders) as proof of Identity and Age. Recently the CA DoJ has decided by themselves that that the ID you present must also confirm your legal citizenship, hence your License or ID must either be a REAL ID, or an older one that lacks the "FEDERAL LIMITS APPLY" language. If you have a FEDERAL LIMITS APPLY Driver's License or ID, then you must either get a REAL ID or present proof of citizenship, such as the documents outlined in 11 CCR § 4045.1 in addition to your FEDERAL LIMITS APPLY ID/License. You must be 18 or older (generally) to purchase a long gun, 21 years or older to purchase a handgun. If you’re purchasing a handgun, additionally, you’ll need to bring proof of Residency, most commonly in the form of a recent utility bill, though a full list of acceptable documents can be found here.

=============================================
Wannabe College Book Sidebar: "Halp! My Address on my Driver's License doesn't match my current Residence!"
For Long Guns (Rifles and Shotguns): You must abide by Federal rules regarding ATF Form 4473 (Firearm Transaction Record). This requires that the Current State of Residence and Address marked in box 2 matches your driver's license/ID address, unless you can provide supplemental government documents in your name showing your current residence (On 4473, this is answered under questions 18.a. and 18.b. under instructions). 4473 derives its power from from 27 CFR § 478.124. Typically this is a vehicle registration or dmv change of address document, but technically speaking it could be a lot of things. I stumbled upon this ATF FAQ Entry when researching: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/wha...nsferee-firearm
Also this ATF Ruling: ATF Rul. 2001-5

For Handguns:
California requires a second proof of residency, as outlined in 11 CCR § 4045, and that specifically requires that the additional proof of residency address match the driver's license or ID address OR DMV change of address attachment. You can pick one of those up at the DMV.
=============================================

The Dealer will have you fill out a firearm purchase form as provided by the ATF, known as Section A and C of form 4473. You can find a copy of the form here. The point of this form is to collect information so that a background check can be performed to confirm firearm eligibility. It also has a list of questions that if answered “Yes” to will disqualify you from purchase, mainly related to felonies, drugs (including marijuana), restraining orders, domestic violence and mental defectiveness/institutionalization.

After that, you pay any DROS (Dealer Record of Sale) fees (or they’ll bill you afterward), they’ll submit your information/DROS. You must wait a minimum of 10 days as mandated by California law. These days are measured as (10) 24 hour days, down to the minute, and the period starts once the Dealer submits your DROS info.

After 10 days have passed, and assuming you passed the DROS/Background Check, you’ll meet again with the Dealer and you then must perform a safe handling demonstration of the firearm you purchased (As described in the FSC study guide and instructor manual).

Finally, the firearm is ready to be transferred. However, with the transfer, generally firearms will (and must) include a safe storage device (usually a cable gun lock). Handguns will almost always include one (as mandated by federal law). Long guns will not always include one, and the purchaser has the option of either providing or acquiring a cable gun lock there, or signing a Gun Safe/Lock Box Ownership Affidavit, which you either claim ownership of an acceptable Gun Safe or Lock Box (the first part of the form), or you own a DOJ-Certified Lockbox from this list, along with a copy of the original receipt for that DOJ-Certified Lockbox (The cheapest Stack-On Firearm Lockers are on this list). Most Dealers will have Cable Gun Locks available for sale (at a marked up price), or you can get them cheap online, or free from either a gun owning friend or at any Project ChildSafe Participating Facility (Call First). If you’re buying a firearm via Private Party Transfer, then definitely expect to have to provide/buy a safe storage device.

Hooray! Firearm Get!

What Can I Buy?

(Fill in, High priority, sorted by Handgun, Long Gun, and Other )

-> Featureless rifles (with Flow Chart)

-> Fixed Magazine Rifles (with Flow Chart… Combined Flow Chart? Will consider)

Intrastate Infrafamilial Transfers
This hasn't been covered in detail yet, however this is one way to bypass the California Handgun Roster, and get an off-roster handgun that otherwise meets all other California laws (no 11+ round mags, no threaded barrel, etc. See CA PC 30515). This is accomplished by having your grandparent, parent, or child who is out of state transferring you a handgun. There will probably be a guide here in the future but if you want to do this ask in thread. In the meantime, going to post Shao's form gift letter.

Shaocaholica posted:

Here's a letter I made for gifting guns from an immediate family member (parent, child, grandparent, grandchild, great-grand...) that's out of state. Rifles, pistols and shotguns. Letter would travel with the gun from the out of state FFL to the CA FFL. Guns obviously have to be CA-compliant before reaching the CA FFL. Pistols do not have to be on the CA approved roster for this type of transfer. No tax is collected either I believe.



How Often Can I Buy?

Long Guns (Rifles/Shotguns): As often as you want, until a law passes that changes that otherwise.
Handguns: 1 every 30 days. However, those with a FFL03/C&R + CoE are exempt from that rule. Also Private Party Transfers (which are done face to face by CA Residents) do not count against the 1 in every 30 days limit (See exemption 8, which references CA PC 28050- 28070).

Ownership

Moving to California

Ammunition: Why can’t I just order 9mm on Amazon via Subscribe & Save?
Basic Flowchart

(Temporary links here until it's fully written out)
CRPA's Ammo Background Check Guide: https://crpa.org/ammo-background-checks/
CRPA's "Freedom Week" Injunction FAQ/Guide to those who currently possess 11+ round magazines: https://crpa.org/news/blogs/crpa-al...-ordered-stay/1

FFL03 (C&R) + CoE: No longer just collectors of Garands, Mausers, and Mosins
(Written content provided by flightless greeb with minor edits. Thanks for the help!)

COE or Certificate of Eligibility.

This is a unique document to California, issued by CA DOJ via a sort of convoluted process detailed here: https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cert-eligibility - Essentially it operates as a more in-depth background check (fingerprinting via Live Scan is required) and is renewed every year. The fee paid to the Livescan operator for an initial app is $71 PLUS I believe the Livescan operator charges for their finger printing services (known as the Rolling Fee). This latter fee isn't fixed so you can shop around. In the Bay Area most places seem to charge about $50 for it or so, though you can find a list of locations and roll fees here. Yearly renewal fees are $22. CA DOJ, unsurprisingly, is super backed up with these applications currently and it can take months before they grant you a CoE. My last renewal took something like 2 months past the expiry date to actually complete, probably because right now everyone at DOJ is busy with AW registration nonsense.

C&R or Curio & Relic License aka 03 FFL

This is granted by BATFE aka the federal government. Unlike the COE it expires every 3 years. The application process for this is more complicated in that the form is way longer but you don't have to get fingerprinted or anything. You do have to mail a copy to your local chief law enforcement officer, just include a letter saying like 'mailed in compliance with federal regulations, no action is required on the part of you or your agency' or something since the CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) doesn't have to approve or anything they just have to be notified. There’s an initial $30 initial fee that you submit with your application, and $30 every 3 years.

You can find the FFL application here. That application is actually for all FFL types, though you’ll checkbox the “Collector” box. As for -how- to fill out the guide, people mostly use the guide from Garand Gear, which can be found here. However, it hasn’t been updated in a while. This additional information from the old thread may help.

BeAuMaN posted:

Most of the advice still applies from Garand Gear (Like sending a copy to your CLEO), though the form is slightly different. Just go through the form and fill it out carefully. Checkbox Collector on question 1, Question 9 is some variation of "I want to collect old and interesting firearms", Question 10 is 03, skip Questions 13-17, etc. If anyone has any questions, feel free to field them here.
(Note by Thread OP: At some people I’ll probably buckle down and write a goon guide for this)

Benefits of a CoE + 03 FFL: Why am I voluntarily doing paperwork?

  • A COE + 03 FFL is part of the requirements for having ammunition shipped to your house under current regulations although since I live in Oakland I'm ineligible for that anyway, so I don't know which vendors honor that, but there is a list on calguns that’s updated with vendors that ship to CoE + 03 FFL. Current Status: Murky. Thanks CA DoJ . See Post.
  • The COE also is supposed to allow you to bypass the 1 handgun in every 30 days rule (for both C&R and non-C&R handguns) and EVEN bypass the 10-day wait for C&R firearms (both long guns and pistols, transfers still have to go through an 01 FFL/Dealer). In like 2014 when DOJ did their huge update to DROS they messed up some features and it became impossible for an 01 FFL to discharge a firearm from one private party to another private party and skip the 10-day wait while selecting COE as an option. Sorry if that sentence is confusing. Basically it means if you are doing a Face to Face transfer, you can't skip the 10-day wait even though you're supposed to be able to. As far as I know this has never been fixed. Also in my experience, only the most law savvy FFLs know about any of this poo poo so many many gun stores won't honor the skipping of the 10-day wait. The 1 in 30 thing is handled by DoJ themselves and I haven't had a problem with that (I once DROS'd like 6 pistols on the same day).
  • You can also use your COE + 03 FFL to do “cash & carry” for C&R long guns from your fellow Californians, which means you do a face to face transfer without needing to a dealer or background check. C&R handguns are still required to go through a 01 FFL. Some record keeping is required by the ATF (you’re supposed to do this for all firearms added to your C&R Licensed Collection) although they basically never collect the data. Usually taking a picture of the seller's Driver License is sufficient. Record the date, make, model, serial, caliber etc. There’s more details for this and the “bound book” at the Garandgear Guide, and federally you’re supposed to record a transaction in the bound book within 7 days. On the California end, you have 30 days to report the transaction to CA DoJ using this form: https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/...rms/bof_961.pdf with a fee of $19.
  • You can also use it to buy C&R guns (even handguns!) outside of CA and just bring them back with you in your luggage. Same federal record keep requirements. If you do that you have 5 days to register them with DoJ starting when you bring them into CA. You use this form to do so along with a $19 fee.


Ok that's all I can think of as far as benefits and how to do stuff. Anyway COE + 03 FFLs are cool and it's nice having one if you intend to collect guns. The Livescan hoops aren't a huge deal, if you live near a city there are Livescan operators everywhere - lots of UPS stores offer the service.

As you can tell I mostly use my C&R/COE for buying old guns. Keep in mind 50 years ago was 1968 so there are a tonnnnn of cool guns under that umbrella. The only other thing I'd say is that, for a lot of guns, it can be tough to prove what year they're actually from. Is a S&W Model 19-1 from 1969 or 1962 or what? What a Sig P210 with their weird re-used serial number blocks? It basically comes down to if you can convince an 01 FFL that it's 50 years old then you're good. Definitely something to discuss with your local guy before you pay for the gun. Here’s a list of references to help convince them.

Here's the DOJ saying COE/C&R holders are exempt from the 10-day wait for C&R guns: https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#11G

Here's the DOJ saying COE/C&R holders are exempt from 1 in 30 days for C&R and non-C&R handguns: https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#24
Related DES (Dealer Entry System) Bulletin found here.

Here's DOJ saying C&R long guns are exempt from going through an FFL: https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#14 This info is out-dated I'm pretty sure. Now you need a C&R/COE in order to skip the 01 FFL (long guns only), but only for face to face transactions.

There’s some debate on whether you can have a C&R rifle shipped to your house with a 03 FFL + COE. However, based on this calguns thread, that seems to not be legal anymore.

What’s this “bound book” everyone keeps talking about?

As mentioned in the Garandgear Guide, the Bound Book is where you must write down all your acquisitions (purchases/etc.) and dispositions (sales/transfers) of C&R Rifles. Here’s one on Amazon. It has entry pages like this:

You record an entry on the left side, then on the same row on the right side, if you get rid of the firearm, you record the information. Here’s the relevant Code of Federal Regulations regarding entries.

§ 478.125(f)(1) posted:

Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents maintained by the licensee, and be readily available for inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a driver's license), and note on the record the method used.
So with the example book from Amazon above, you’d also have to record the Date of Birth and Driver’s License/State ID/etc. If you dispose of a firearm to a non-licensee, in additiona to Date, Name, and Address. Only Date Name, Address, and License No. to a licensee.

There’s some debate as to whether you only record acquisition/disposition of firearms that you owned before getting your license. As one of our posters notes:

I Demand Food posted:

The way the law is written, once you have a C&R license it's not a matter of using it, as "each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics" without any other qualifiers.

So even if you don't provide your FFL03 when buying it, you still need to log it as if you did.

Following the exact letter of the law, even if you acquired a C&R rifle before getting the C&R license, you still need to log it in the bound book when you sell it.

Apparently some BATFE agents are confused by both of the above and don't enforce it, but it's better to be on the right side of any law regulating FFL's.

Someone told me my collection can be inspected…

Correct; specifically they (The ATF) can inspect your Bound Book and any related firearms recorded in that Bound Book. Many people report that they always want to see the firearms that are recorded in the Bound Book these days. That said, you can choose if you want the inspection to happen at your house (or address listed on your FFL03/C&R) or at the closest ATF Field Office (which you’ll have to bring your recorded collection there). If an ATF agent tells you they must inspect the premises, kindly inform them that you’re a collector and if needed they can check with their supervisor. As for frequency of inspections, asking greeb how long they’ve been a C&R and how frequently they’ve received inspections...

flightless greeb posted:

Since 2012 and never. I also know a ton of people with C&Rs and none of them have ever been inspected either.

Simply put; record your stuff but don’t worry about getting an ATF inspection. As usual, we recommend that if you get an inspection though, opt to do it at the ATF Field Office. Inviting LEOs of any kind into your house is often a huge risk, no matter how much of a law abiding citizen you (think) are.

CCWs: If you live in SF or LA, I hope you made a huge donation to the mayor.

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 21:36 on May 19, 2020

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BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


(Still Reserved, but Social Gun Meeting stuff below!)

For now, I just want everyone to know that we have a Goon Gun SoCal group, and currently they organize here for meets:

tehDiceman posted:

We actually moved to a Slack channel over google groups.

Link to join:

TFR SoCal


If you're in Socal, do try to show up!

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Sep 15, 2018

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Range Reviews

I planned to make this a bit more intensive with formatting, but for the moment, this is going to be me copy-pasting reviews posted in the thread here. Write a review and hit me up in thread if you want your review pasted here. More detailed reviews (like the first one by greeb) below are welcome, as well as shorter reviews/comments/warnings. The goal here is to make sure Goons are aware of ranges, since finding a shooting area in California can be difficult compared to other states, and the ones that do exist often have their own quirks (as ranges tend to).

flightless greeb posted:

That's San Leandro, hence why they suck for rifles. They also only allow shooting from the bench. No prone or standing.

Richmond has the ability to move your target stands up to 50y which I also usually do for zeroing. They're the most multi purpose range around but, living in Oakland at least, I find it easier to break down range trips by type of gun. I'll do a little write-up of my three fave ranges below if Beauman wants to put it in the OP:

San Leandro Rifle & Pistol

http://www.slrifle.com/

Good for pistols, kinda sucks for rifles.
Pros include: indoors, has mechanical target hangers, no cease fire. Typically not very busy, especially on week days where they're open till about 9:00PM but even on a Sunday you won't have to wait in line.
Cons: No rentals, no rapid fire, no holster work. Rifle side sucks because they won't let you shoot FMJ ammo, so basically only hunting soft-points, BTHP match rounds or load your own. If you reload its NBD but if you don't its a no go for cost reasons. The rifle side also does not allow shooting from the standing or prone positions. Range is out to 100 yard.

They also offer a Saturday Night Steel Shoot, 6PM on Saturdays. I believe the 1st Saturday of the month is when newbs are allowed to show up and demonstrate competency to participate. The test is fairly tough for a new shooter so you might want to spend some time on the bullseye range first. (2 consecutive hits on maybe 6" diameter plates at a distance between 7-25 yards - was the test last time I did it years ago). The steel shoot is cool because you can practice drawing from holster and rapid fire. No movement is allowed however and the arrays stay the same every time so it gets boring after you go 3-4 times. Those first two times are a blast tho lol (Needless to say this is pistols only, the arrays are only like 15-25y away).

Cost is $25 per person, must show photo ID. You can pass a little test they can administer to you if they're not busy and then, once you receive a laminated card from them a few months later, the range fee goes down to $15 per person.

Edit Note: The rules say no FMJ, but this actually means no FMJ in the outdoor rifle range, but FMJ is okay for the steel shoot and the indoor pistol range, per flightless greeb.

Richmond Rod & Gun

http://www.richmondrodandgun.com/

Good for rifle (well mediocre really). Kinda sucks for pistol, ok for shotgun.
Pros: Rifle range is only 100y (theres a 200y range but its members only and they have to have a free RSO to watch over you which they typically never do). You can shoot 3-position here however and you can move your targets up to 50y. You're allowed to shoot freakin FMJ wow such a pro lol. No magnetic bullets tho as of Jan 2018. The pistol line usually isn't very busy. Shotguns are way in the back but they do offer trap & skeet iirc.
Cons: No rapid fire, no non-paper targets, limited to 100y. You have to have your rifle bore-sighted before you're allowed to shoot which can take awhile if they're busy, which they often are on weekends. If you show up at like 11am on saturday you may have to wait in line for a bench (only about 15 positions). Limited number of stands closer than 25y for pistol. Have to shoot steel shot for shotguns bc you're shooting out towards/near water. RSOs on the shotgun range are part of your shooting group and are kind of annoying.

Richmond is the premier site for action shooting up in the Bay Area now. USPSA and multigun especially. Their action bays are fine and they've got three of them. I've yet to attend an actual match here but I've heard they can have up to 150 shooters show up at a time, which sounds kinda hectic. Still, all the other action ranges are like an hour+ outside the bay area iirc.

Cost: $20 for non-members, good for 2 hours on the rifle & pistol lines. Membership is a sponsored affair and the process took me like 3 months to complete. Only open on the weekends and Wed and Fri.

Martinez Gun Club

http://www.martinezgunclub.net/

This is a shotgun only range but its great. They have like 10 trap fields (altho usually only 5 or so are operating at a time). 2 skeet fields and 5-stand. They also offer olympic trap & skeet.

Pros: Fully featured shotgun club with basically every shotgun sport available. Allowed to use lead shot. Don't have to police your brass if you don't feel like it. Patterning board in the back. Has a bar where you can buy gatorade or hot dogs or other stuff. RSOs mostly leave you alone unless you are being a jack's own rear end.
Cons: No pistol grip shotguns, even if they have a stock (lame). On the competition circuit so check the calendar before you go, sometimes the range has like 100 people on it and every field is busy. Shotguns only.

This is my fave range in the Bay bc shooting shotguns at clay pigeons is the most fun thing you can do w/o training. It's also just a nice old club, founded in 1883 with a fine view of the Chevron refinery in the distance.

Cost: $11 a token for non-members. I think they charge $6-7 a box for 12ga bird shot which isn't bad. Still, if you shoot 4 rounds it adds up quick.


Sadly thats basically it for up here in the east bay. We lost Chabot and USI and Jackson and Bullseye and Pacific Rod & Gun all in the last 5 years. The next closest set of ranges are way down in the South Bay and I can't be bothered since I have to drive there for work all the time and I'm sick of it. That said, I'd love to hear how busy their rifle ranges are.

flightless greeb posted:

Here's a writeup of a couple more ranges I've been frequenting in the last couple years.

Coyote Valley Sporting Clays

http://www.coyoteclays.com/

Located waaaay down south of Morgan Hill which is south of San Jose, this is the "Bay Area's" premier shotgun facility. They're located over a bunch of acres and have skeet and trap fields, though not as many or as varied as Martinez. What they do have is an enormous 20 station sporting clays course. If you're not familiar with sporting clays, its basically golf but with shotguns (replete with golf carts for rental). This range also rents shotguns which isn't particularly common outside the sporting clays scene. They also have a nice gun room full of very expensive shotguns for sale if you're on the market and want to check some stuff out. They also have a separate mountain course which I've never actually shot as its by reservation only.

Tons of fun, but a long long drive for me and it gets pretty darn expensive. 20 stations times .44c per target plus of course the cost of firing a shotgun shell at said target can easily be 100-200 rounds per person over the course of a day. They also have a big goofy fake western town for Cowboy Action which I'm just starting to get into. No rifle or pistol facilities.

Sunnyvale Rod & Gun

https://www.sunnyvalegunclub.com/

My new favorite rifle range. They have more bays than Richmond but essentially 0 pistol facilities. They do have a couple trap fields shooting into a picturesque hillside over a dell though. This is the cleanest and best run range I've run into in the whole bay area - on the left side center fire section the bays are separated by concrete barriers, so you don't have to worry about catching hot brass to the side of the face from the AK 8 lanes away. Your $20 CASH ONLY range fee covers an entire day of shooting, unlike Richmond's two hours, and includes FREE targets of various types, free loaner spotting scopes and free target stands. They even have steel plates out at 100 yards on the far left side of the range you can ring - altho it's a little tough to tell which target belongs to which bay. Run by a younger crowd with iPad based tech company style registration, it's a pleasant place to go. Just remember to bring cash or you'll be trekking 20min back down the road looking for an ATM in a convenience store. They even allow rapid fire!

Pham Nuwen posted:

Livermore/Pleasanton Rod & Gun Club (https://lprg.org/ranges/pistol-rifle-range/) was pretty good when I used to go. $20 range fee, "At busy periods we restrict range to 2 hours" but whenever I went I was able to shoot as long as I wanted.

I Demand Food posted:

Also:

Los Angeles County

Outdoor:

Oak Tree Gun Club
https://www.oaktreegunclub.com/
(661) 259-7441
23121 Coltrane Ave, Newhall, CA 91321

Non-Member Range fees:
$20 per shooter
$10 rentals

Membership: $400 annually. Includes unlimited range time and rentals. Also includes one free gun transfer per year and discounts on ammo and food.

Review: Just off the 5 on the way to Magic Mountain. Has a rifle range out to 100 yards, multiple skeet and clay shooting lanes (with a ridiculous 1 shell loaded at a time rule), three paper pistol bays (about 20 to 75 yards, though the 75 yard one is typically reserved for GroupOn parties) and a steel silhouette range that only allows limited pistol calibers. Rents rifles, pistols, and shotguns. On-site gun store (including consignments) and bar & grill (with beer and wine, only after done shooting). Offers half off memberships during summer sales and for Black Friday, but memberships are not required to shoot. Allows rapid fire shooting on all ranges but skeet/clay.

Burro Canyon Shooting Park
https://www.burrocanyon.com
(626) 910-1344
22100 E Fork Rd, Azusa, CA 91702

Range fees:
$15/day Public range – Wed. thru Mon.
$30/person Private range (min. charge $120)
$45/hour Sporting Clays Range (1 box of clays included)

Membership: $250 a year (includes unlimited public range time for member + one additional shooter).

Review: About half an hour east of Angeles on the other side of Angeles National Forest. Has a 210 yard public rifle and 75 yard public pistol range, as well as private ranges ($30 per person with a $120 minimum) that range from 45 to 110 yards. On public ranges, they are super strict about range rules and non-magnetic ammo and will not hesitate to eject someone who violates a rule. On private ranges, they allow rapid fire shooting and generally only care that you're not shooting magnetic ammo or at trash/metal. At all times, if you act like an idiot they will treat you like an idiot. Their primary concern is not getting sued or burning down. They do not rent guns, but do sell ammo.

Indoor ranges:

Target Range
http://www.thetargetrange.com/
(818) 787-4373
16140 Cohasset St, Los Angeles, CA 91406

Range fees:
$14 per day with purchase of ammunition
$20 per day without purchase of ammunition

Additional shooters 1/2 price if on the same lane (Ear and eye protection are included with lane rentals.)

Standard gun rental $10.00
Premium gun rental $20.00

Membership:
$120 individual
$180 group (up to 4)

Review: Located near the Flyaway in Van Nuys. Friendly staff, mixed clientele. Not the best ventilation. Due to repeated suicides, do not allow non-member solo rentals. Pistol calibers and shot shells only. Rent pistols, pistol caliber rifles, and shotguns. Also sells guns. Goes out to around 25 yards. Offers memberships, but not required to shoot. No rapid fire.

Firing Line
https://www.firingline.net/

Northridge
(818) 349-1420
18348 Eddy Street
Northridge, CA 91324

Burbank
(818) 954-9810
1060 North Lake Street
Burbank, CA 91502

Huntington Beach
(714) 841-2100
17921 Jamestown Lane
Huntington Beach, CA 92647

Range fees: $20 + $10 per additional shooters per lane

Membership: $175 a year individual, $290 family (includes range time and rentals)

Review: A few locations, including Northridge, Burbank, and Huntington Beach Generally on the smaller side as far as distance and number of shooting bays. Not the best ventilation and looks a little aged, but clean. Do not allow non-member solo rentals. Pistols, rimfire rifles, and shot shells only. Rent pistols, rimfire rifles, and shotguns. Sell guns but have a limited selection. No rapid fire or centerfire rifles.

Ventura County

Indoor:

Smokin' Barrel
(805) 583-3774
1775 Surveyor Ave, Simi Valley, CA 93065

Range fees: $20 per hour or $35 per day (per shooter)

Memberships: Four levels, range from $300 (weekday use only, limited rentals) to $999 (unlimited range use, unlimited rentals, four free transfers per year)

Review: In Simi Valley off the 118. Friendly and knowledgeable staff, generally friendly clientele. Good ventilation, clean and modern. Goes out to around 30 yards. Allows most pistol and rifles. Rents pistols, rifles, and shotguns. Also sells firearms, including consignments. Most expensive memberships around, but not required to shoot. Lane fee is per hour or day. Generally allow rapid fire shooting but you need to check with the RSO first. Fine for damaging a target holder.

Shooter's Paradise
http://shootersparadiseofoxnard.com/
(805) 486-1177
1910 Sunkist Cir, Oxnard, CA 93033

Range fees: $15 + $8 for each additional shooter per lane
$7-$10 rentals per gun

Membership: $50 for discounted rates ($8 lanes) or $175 for unlimited range time

Review: 50 foot range. Very picky about ammo and will generally try to force you to use their ammo even in your own guns. Pistols up to .500 S&W and rifles up to .300 Win Mag. No rapid fire. Rental fee is per firearm. $40 fine for damaging a target holder. Has a gun store with a wide variety of new and consignment firearms.

frunksock posted:

Here's a short review of Los Altos Rod and Gun for the range review section:

http://www.losaltosrodandgunclub.com/

I was only on the rifle lanes so I can't say anything about the pistol and trap. It reminded me of Chabot in terms of layout, rules, and how it's run. It's all outdoor, 15-20 minute firing periods. You'll need a stapler since the target hangers are cardboard and fixed in place. They have a 'tin can' range at 40y and another at 100y, where you can shoot at cans (but nothing else -- not water bottles, not glass, etc). It's BYOC.

The one weird rule is you have to clean up your own brass. You can only clean up your brass behind the firing line during shooting periods, and you can only clean up brass in front of the line during target changes. So it makes it kind of awkward to try to execute a complete lane change during one period.

Your first time they'll make you read the rules and pass a short open-book test about them. No restrictions on ammo. No rapid fire (except, I think, rimfire on the tin-can range). It seemed overall clean and well-run. I didn't check out the bathrooms. The parking spots are all directly behind the shooting positions, which is nice.

To get there you'll have to (get to?) drive some twisty mountain roads.

I Demand Food posted:

Went to California Tactical Academy up in Piru (Ventura county) over the weekend.

https://ctala.com/

It's a trek, but it's a nice little range with no cell reception. They have public shotgun (birdshot only), pistol, rimfire, and rifle ranges in a line right next to each other, plus a whole bunch of private ranges available for rent.

Approximately 30 rifle benches, ranging between 50 yards and 500 yards for paper targets, and 100 and 1000 yards for steel. They allow one person to shoot on the shotgun range at a time. The pistol range can probably accommodate 10 people at a time, and the rimfire "alley" had less than 5 spots.

Their pro shop and range office is air conditioned, has cold drinks for sale, and rents guns. The staff is pretty friendly, safety minded, and the most diverse I've ever seen at a range. The $20 range fees lets you shoot on any of the public ranges all day long, and they give you a chamber flag for cease fires too.

10/10 would visit again.

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Aug 8, 2019

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Additional Legal Stuff: Self Defense and California CCW Overview
I was originally going to weave this into a greater guide, however due to my current schedule, I'm just going to paste these two overviews that were kindly provided by I Demand Food in the meantime until I get around to properly formatting the OPs. To the best of my knowledge after quick review these are mostly accurate (and most appreciated), though the "Not a Lawyer, Not your Lawyer, Not Legal Advice" still always applies.

California Concealed Carry

I Demand Food posted:

California generally requires a resident to have a "License to Carry Concealed Pistol, Revolver, or Other Firearm Within the State of California" ("CCW License") in order to carry a concealed handgun in public or in a vehicle. Otherwise, doing so is a violation of PC 25400. Unfortunately, in regards to these licenses California is a "may-issue" state that leaves discretion for issuance up to the local police chief and/or sheriff. A police and/or sheriff department is therefore considered an issuing authority (IA).

This goes a long way to explaining why, in a state with almost 50 million people, less than 100,000 have an active CCW License.

California also does not honor CCW licenses from any other state.

As far as the state of California is concerned, there are four types of licenses:

Standard (including modified)
Judge
Reserve Officer
90 Day (for non-county residents who spend a substantial amount of time at a place of business or employment which is located in the county or in a city within the county, good in that county only)

For most people in this thread, the Standard CCW License is what may apply.

Prior to being issued with a CCW License you must prove that:

you are of good moral character,
you have good cause to justify the CCW License,
you are a resident in the county or in a city within the county
you have completed an approved firearms' training class
you are not prohibited from owning firearms (determined by a LiveScan and background check)

If you live in a county with less than 200,000 people, you can only be issued a "modified" CCW License that is valid in that county only.

"Good moral" character is usually demonstrated by having a clean criminal record, not having an excessive amount of moving violations, and not having substance abuse issues.

Where the arbitrary nature of leaving broad discretion to a sheriff or police chief comes into play is "good cause".

There is no generally accepted standard for "good cause".

In some counties, (especially the most populous), this leads to anything from a wholesale denial of CCW Licenses for political reasons to outright corruption wherein licenses are issued as rewards for campaign contributions or gifts (Dark Red). Some IA's, (such as LAPD) have even been sued over this and have (as part of a settlement) clearly outlined their good cause requirements, but nonetheless refuse to honor them.

On the other hand, a mere desire to exercise "self-defense" is considered sufficient good cause for the issuance of a permit in other counties (Dark Green).

And everything in between as can be seen on this map: http://www.baggss.us/

The Process

In general, the CCW License process begins with filling out an application. While this is a form issued by California DoJ (BOF 4012), it's advisable to determine not only who your IA is-- as some city police departments have agreements with the county sheriff to process license applications for them-- but also what their particular process is as some require specific portions of the application to be filled out or signed in person. Some IA's require appointments just to submit an application, while others have certain hours during which they accept applications at specific locations.

The application uses the same form for initial and renewal licenses.

It begins with a declaration that you will complete it truthfully and that you understand all of the information on the form may be subject to public disclosure followed by:

Section 1 - Applicant Personal Information (biographical & biometric information)
Section 2 - Applicant Clearance Questions (everything from having ever applied for or held a CCW License to renouncing citizenship to moving violations/traffic accidents)
Section 3 - Description of Weapons (Make, Model, Caliber, and S/N - some IA's allow 3, others 5, others have no limit)
Section 4 - License Conditions and Restrictions (basically CCW_License_readme.txt)
Section 5 - Applicable California Penal Code Sections (basically State_Prison_readme.txt)
Section 6 - Agreement to Restrictions and to Hold Harmless (agreeing to reading the above two sections and not suing the IA for giving or not giving you a CCW License)
Section 7 - Investigator's Notes (If you get an interview, the detective will make notes here)
Section 8 - Release of Information and Declaration (allows IA to perform a background check, release the contents of the application to the public record, and signing under penalty of perjury)

Once you submit the application to the IA, you will be sent for a LiveScan and then called in for an interview with an investigator.

The application fee, DoJ fees, and LiveScan will likely cost around $200 and are non-refundable. Some IA's will also send investigators to your home to verify that you actually live there (as a result of people in non-issuing counties renting in issuing counties in order to try to get a license) and they may speak with your neighbors.

Depending on your county, getting to the interview could take anywhere from a couple to several months after submitting the application. During the interview, the investigator will generally go over your application in detail to make sure you aren't hiding anything or lying, as well as discussing your good cause in detail. They will also give you a chance to explain any potentially negative information and may ask questions related to your experience with firearms, safety, how you react to stressful situations, and/or whether or not you're a would-be vigilante.

Some IA's may require a psychological evaluation, as well. The cost of such an evaluation is capped by the state at $150.

After the psych eval. and/or interview, you will receive a determination letter that either denies your application or gives you permission to continue the application process (specifically, taking a certified training course).

The training course must be by an instructor approved by your IA and shall not be less than 8 hours or exceed 16 hours. It's generally a 16 hour course that includes 12 hours of classroom instruction and 4 hours of “Live Fire.” Students must pass a written exam and qualify on the range by passing a designated course of fire (which varies by IA) with each firearm in order to successfully complete the course.

The instructor will then submit proof of completion to the IA. You should give them about a week or two before calling them to follow up and confirm they've received it. They will then schedule you to come in and be issued the CCW License.

The License itself is a piece of paper with your details that lists the handguns you are allowed to carry, lists any limitations on how you may carry, and is signed by either the chief or sheriff at your IA. You are expected to keep it on you at all times. Some IA's do realize that, being paper, they can and will fall apart when carried daily and also provide "hard cards" that are quasi-legal at the state level, but which list your info, you license info, your firearms, and provide a number for law enforcement to call to verify. If issued with a hard card, you still need to retain your actual paper license (preferably in a safe place).

The "Standard" CCW License is good for two years and honored in 24 other states. Those states are:

Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, and Wisconsin

Just as with the issuance of licenses, IA's have broad authority regarding the terms of the licenses. Some require a licensee to inform law enforcement they are carrying upon any official contact, while others require it only when asked. Some require the IA to be notified after any official contact with law enforcement (such as being ticketed), while others do not. Some allow the weapons on the permit to be amended, while others require a licensee to wait until renewal.

The renewal process usually begins around 3-6 months before the expiration of your license and the fees will likely be roughly half that of the initial application. If you move within the county where you hold a license, you need to notify the IA within 10 days. If you move outside of the issuing county, your CCW License is no longer valid and you will need to submit a new application with the relevant IA.

Due to somewhat recent changes to state law, a licensee cannot carry on the grounds of any school or college. Licensees also cannot legally carry at any of the following:

Child care facility
Courthouse or Court room
Public buildings or meetings
Social rehabilitation facility
Gun show or event if you have ammunition that fits firearm
State Capitol, any legislative office, any office of the Governor or other constitutional officer, or any hearing room in which any committee of the Senate or Assembly is conducting a hearing, or upon the grounds of the State Capitol, which is bounded by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets in the City of Sacramento.
State wildlife management areas
Polling station – this includes any person, uniformed peace officer, private guard, or security personnel or any person who is wearing a uniform of a peace officer, guard, or security personnel, who is stationed in the immediate vicinity of, or posted at, a polling place without written authorization.
Demonstrations related to refusal to work
Any place that serves alcohol for consumption (this generally refers to bars and bar areas, not the dining area of a place that also serves alcohol unless your IA specifies otherwise)
Cal Expo center in Sacramento
Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by Federal Law.

Additionally:

You may not carry a firearm if you are consuming alcohol
You may not unjustifiably display a concealed firearm
You cannot carry a concealed weapon not listed on the permit
You cannot carry a concealed weapon at times or circumstances other than those specified in the permit
Listed handguns must be properly secured in unattended vehicles
You may not carry a firearm while masked to conceal your identity

"No gun" signs do not carry force of law, but you may be charged with trespassing if a property owner asks you to leave and you do not.

Fringe benefits of a CCW License include it being able to be used in place of a FSC for handgun AND long gun purchases, exempting the permit holder from the transportation requirements requiring a listed handgun to be transported unloaded in a locked container (firearms still need to be securely stored when the vehicle is unattended, however), and generally being able to carry (concealed) while at state parks, state forests, and national forests (though not in buildings).

Finally, Section 25600 of the California Penal Code does allow a defense to carrying a concealed firearm without a license in limited cases:

(a) A violation of Penal Code Section 25400 is justifiable when a person who possesses a firearm reasonably believes that person is in grave danger because of circumstances forming the basis of a current restraining order issued by a court against another person who has been found to pose a threat to the life or safety of the person who possesses the firearm. This section may not apply when the circumstances involve a mutual restraining order issued pursuant to Division 10 (commencing with Section 6200) of the Family Code absent a factual finding of a specific threat to the person's life or safety. It is not the intent of the Legislature to limit, restrict,or narrow the application of current statutory or judicial authority to apply this or other justifications to a defendant charged with violating Section 25400 or committing another similar offense.
(b) Upon trial for violating Section 25400 [PC], the trier of fact shall determine whether the defendant was acting out of a reasonable belief that the defendant was in grave danger.

It should be noted that this section provides a defense in court, but not immunity from arrest or prosecution and there is no guarantee of not being convicted despite asserting that defense.

A good additional resource is https://www.gunstocarry.com/gun-law...ornia-gun-laws/
Additionally, I'll add quickly for reference: https://www.baggss.us/ keeps an occasionally updated CCW map that gives a very basic idea of the issuance standard of various counties/municipalities in California. These are rough approximations but generally accurate most of the time. Picture below is the Spring 2019 edition (feel free to bug me to update it when a new one comes out). Website also has a picture with estimated issuance stats from news articles.


California Self-Defense Laws

I Demand Food posted:

California generally has pretty good self-defense laws.

Overall, self-defense is permitted per statutory and case law when all three of the below conditions are met:

1. The individual reasonably believed that they or another was in
imminent danger of suffering bodily injury or was in imminent
danger of being touched unlawfully
2. The individual reasonably believed that the immediate use of
force was necessary to defend against that danger;
AND
3. The individual used no more force than was reasonably
necessary to defend against that danger

This is reflected in CALCRIM Number 3470, the jury instructions given in regards to a case with a claim of a "Right to Self-Defense or Defense of Another (Non-Homicide)"

Firearms are considered deadly weapons and the use of one against another person is generally considered deadly force, so there is a higher standard for that.

Within the home, California essentially has castle doctrine.

Per PC 198.5, "any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant or substantial physical injury."

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/...A7ionNum=198.5.

Not only is there is no duty to retreat from someone who has unlawfully and forcibly entered one's home, but there's also the presumption that someone who has broken into your home is there to kill or severely injure you so one is justified in using lethal force against them. That justification ends if the intruder flees, attempts to surrender or flee, or is incapacitated or disabled.

CALCRIM Number 506 is the instruction that would be given to a jury should a case of self-defense within the home go to a jury trial: https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/calcrim/500/506/

The reason California "essentially" has castle doctrine is the above applies to criminal charges. California does not provide any immunity or protection against civil suits resulting from a justified use of force (in or outside of the home), so one can still get sued and bear the legal costs of mounting a civil defense (and possible civil damages).

Outside of the home, there are differences between statutory and case law regarding justified use of lethal force.

Per PC 197, "Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:

(1) When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person.

(2) When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous, or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein.

(3) When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a spouse, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he or she was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed.

(4) When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace."

However, as a result of a handful of court cases, including one (People v. Ceballos) where the court essentially said that because so many things are considered felonies nowadays (and given that most of them are non-violent) a literal reading of PC 197 would be "undesirable", case law holds differently. Instead, "felonies" would be limited to only those that were "some atrocious crime attempted to be committed by force" and that "the punishment provided by a statute is not necessarily an adequate test as to whether life may be taken for in some situations it is too artificial and unrealistic. We must look further into the character of the crime, and the manner of its perpetration. When these do not reasonably create a fear of great bodily harm, as they could not if defendant apprehended only a misdemeanor assault, there is no cause for the exaction of a human life."

Therefore, CALCRIM Number 505 instructs juries that the use of lethal force is only justified outside of the home when all of the following conditions are met:

1. The individual reasonably believed that they or another
was in imminent danger of being killed or suffering great bodily
injury [or was in imminent danger of being
(raped/maimed/robbed/ <insert other forcible and
atrocious crime>)];
2. They reasonably believed that the immediate use of
deadly force was necessary to defend against that danger;
AND
3. They used no more force than was reasonably
necessary to defend against that danger.

https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/calcrim/500/505/

Noticeably, case law does not permit the use of lethal force in defense of property.

Just as when within a home, there is no duty to retreat from an aggressor in public before using an appropriate level of force, even when retreating is an option.

In all cases, an appropriate level of force can only be used to stop an imminent threat and the justification for that use of force ends at the same time that the threat does. If someone who had up to then been acting in self-defense continues to use force after a threat had ended, they not only risk losing the ability to argue self-defense, but also may entitle the initial aggressor to assert a claim of self defense in turn!
Additional Note: One can find the latest version of the California Criminal Jury Instructions here:
https://www.courts.ca.gov/partners/312.htm
I imagine not much has changed from the 2017 edition, but all the same it's good for folk to know where to find the latest source document.

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 08:23 on May 8, 2019

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


(Reserved)

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


(Reserved)

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


(Reserved)

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


(Reserved)

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


(Reserved)

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


(Reserved)

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Ah first page of megathread. In 5 years all the goons who post on this first sacred page will be DITS.

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Shaocaholica posted:

Ah first page of megathread. In 5 years all the goons who post on this first sacred page will be DITS.

Well, existence is agony, so sign me up!

Henrik Zetterberg
Dec 7, 2007




O/U on how long it takes Gavin Newsom to outlaw guns into his term is: 8 months.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Henrik Zetterberg posted:

O/U on how long it takes Gavin Newsom to outlaw guns into his term is: 8 months.

I mean it would be a once in a lifetime event. :popcorn:

flightless greeb
Jan 28, 2016



Yaay alright if I get a chance tonight I'll try to write up some stuff on the FFL03 & COE portion.

Skinnymansbeerbelly
Mar 31, 2010


Shaocaholica posted:

Ah first page of megathread. In 5 years all the goons who post on this first sacred page will be DITS.

How can I possibly resist this?

Rivethead
Feb 22, 2008

The boys at work sure ain't gonna like this!

Please cover inheriting a firearm in CA. Forms? Procedure?

ishikabibble
Jan 21, 2012



Shaocaholica posted:

Ah first page of megathread. In 5 years all the goons who post on this first sacred page will be DITS.

I always wanted to have an even more fabulous mustache.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Rivethead posted:

Please cover inheriting a firearm in CA. Forms? Procedure?

Depends on where its currently located and with whom. In state, out of state, immediate family, not-immediate family?

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Here's a letter I made for gifting guns from an immediate family member (parent, child, grandparent, grandchild, great-grand...) that's out of state. Rifles, pistols and shotguns. Letter would travel with the gun from the out of state FFL to the CA FFL. Guns obviously have to be CA-compliant before reaching the CA FFL. Pistols do not have to be on the CA approved roster for this type of transfer. No tax is collected either I believe.

Shaocaholica fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Aug 8, 2018

Henrik Zetterberg
Dec 7, 2007




Can you put a pistol that's not on roster on your CCW? Like, if an out-of-state family member gifted you one.

I'm guessing yes, since stuff drops off the roster all the time.

LingcodKilla
Dec 28, 2002

I ate too much crab and transformed into this.


Best of luck Cal Gun Goons. I'm rooting for you.


From a safe distance.

frunksock
Feb 21, 2002



(Reserved)

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Shaocaholica posted:

Here's a letter I made for gifting guns from an immediate family member (parent, child, grandparent, grandchild, great-grand...) that's out of state. Rifles, pistols and shotguns. Letter would travel with the gun from the out of state FFL to the CA FFL. Guns obviously have to be CA-compliant before reaching the CA FFL. Pistols do not have to be on the CA approved roster for this type of transfer. No tax is collected either I believe.



That's right, this was a very nifty thing; will get added to the OP somewhere.


Rivethead posted:

Please cover inheriting a firearm in CA. Forms? Procedure?

Will pencil out somewhere for this... We've had... two... three people ask about this? I think this might have a dedicated section. Was going to add this to the "alternative means of transfer" (or better name) section (family transfers, interstate, etc.), but considering how often this comes up, it might be better just to cover this as a mini-guide so people that come here with that specific problem know what to do.


Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Can you put a pistol that's not on roster on your CCW? Like, if an out-of-state family member gifted you one.

I'm guessing yes, since stuff drops off the roster all the time.

There shouldn't be a state-legal/regulatory-level reason that you couldn't. However, if your local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction), like your Sheriff or Police Chief, decides to make up some odd rule for that; not much that can be done. I'll look into this though and it'll be included in the CCW section.
Edit: To elaborate even more on this... afaik, let's say you're one of those people that got a Serbu Super Shorty via AOW transfer shenanigans? If your Sheriff/Police Chief writes it off and puts it on your CCW permit, you should be able to carry it on your person concealed (assuming you can physically conceal it). Things get more murky I think when it comes to Registered Assault Weapons. Some sort of Fixed Magazine Sheninagans non-assault-weapon AR Pistol could in theory by CCWed though. But the chances of your Sheriff/Police Chief writing it on your permit are super duper slim. They're going to ask "Why do you want these really impractical firearms on your permit?" and if your answer isn't "I've donated thousands of dollars to your campaign every election", then they'll probably say no.

frunksock posted:

(Reserved)

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Aug 8, 2018

flightless greeb
Jan 28, 2016



ok here's some info, feel free to edit or include or disinclude as it freakin amuses you

COE or Certificate of Eligibility.

This is a unique document to California, issued by CA DOJ via a sort of convoluted process detailed here: https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cert-eligibility - Essentially it operates as a more in-depth background check (finger printing via Live Scan is required) and is renewed every year. The fee paid to the Livescan operator for an initial app is $71 PLUS I believe the Livescan operator charges for their finger printing services. This latter fee isn't fixed so you can shop around. In the Bay Area most places seem to charge about $50 for it or so. Yearly renewal fees are $22. CA DOJ, unsurprisingly, is super back up with these applications and it can take months before they grant you a CoE. My last renewal took something like 2 months past the expiry date to actually complete, probably bc right now everyone at DOJ is busy with AW registration nonsense.

Anyway, benefits to a COE include: Ability to combine with a C&R license to have C&R long guns (Any non-NFA rifle or shotgun that is 50 years old or more and doesn't violate the AWB) shipped directly to your house. C&R pistols still have to go to an 01 FFL. A COE is also part of the requirements for having ammunition shipped to your house under current regulations altho since I live in Oakland I'm ineligible for that anyway, so I don't know which vendors honor that. The COE also is supposed to allow you to bypass the 1 handgun in every 30 days rule and EVEN bypass the 10-day wait for C&R firearms (both long guns and pistols, transfer still has to go thru an 01 FFL). In like 2014 when DOJ did their huge update to DROS they messed up some features and it became impossible for an 01 FFL to discharge a firearm from one private party to another private party and skip the 10-day wait while selecting COE as an option. Sorry if that sentence is confusing. Basically it means if you are doing a Face to Face transfer, you can't skip the 10-day wait even though you're supposed to be able to. As far as I know this has never been fixed. Also in my experience, only the most law savvy FFLs know about any of this poo poo so many many gun stores won't honor the skipping of the 10-day wait. The 1 in 30 thing is handled by DoJ themselves and I haven't had a problem with that (I once DROS'd like 6 pistols on the same day). Anyway COEs are cool and it's nice having one if you intend to collect guns. The Livescan hoops aren't a huge deal, if you live near a city there are Livescan operators everywhere - lots of UPS stores offer the service.

Here's the DOJ saying COE/C&R holders are exempt from the 10-day wait for C&R guns: https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#11G

Here's the DOJ saying COE/C&R holders are exempt from 1 in 30 days for hand guns: https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#24

C&R or Curio & Relic License aka 03 FFL

This is granted by BATFE aka the federal government. Unlike the COE it expires every 5 years. The application process for this is more complicated in that the form is way longer but you don't have to get fingerprinted or anything. You do have to mail a copy to your local chief law enforcement officer, just include a letter saying like 'mailed in compliance with federal regulations, no action is required on the part of you or your agency' or something since the CLEO doesn't have to approve or anything they just have to be notified. I can't remember the fee structure and the application process is convoluted enough it should probably be done following a guide. I think the C&R thread here knows where to find a guide on how to do that.

Benefits of a C&R unique to CA. As mentioned above, you need this and the COE to have C&R long guns mailed to your door. You also need it if you want to skip the 10-day wait for C&R guns. You can also use it to buy C&R guns (even pistols!) outside of CA and just bring them back with you in your luggage. If you do that you have 5 days to register them with DoJ, similar requirements exist if you have a long gun mailed to you. You can also use this, alongside a COE, to do cash & carry for C&R long guns from your fellow Californians. Some record keeping is required by the ATF altho they basically never collect the data. Usually taking a pic of the seller's Driver License is sufficient. Record the date, make, model, serial, caliber etc. If you do that you have 30 days to report the transaction to DoJ using this form: https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/...rms/bof_961.pdf costs $19.

Here's the form for reporting an out-of-state acquisition. You have 5 days from when you bring it back into the state with you: https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/...ms/curioapp.pdf I think you use this same form for guns mailed to you.

Here's DOJ saying C&R long guns are exempt from going thru an FFL: https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#14 This info is out-dated I'm pretty sure. Now you need a C&R/COE in order to skip the 01 FFL (long guns only)

Ok that's all I can think of as far as benefits and how to do stuff. As you can tell I mostly use my C&R/COE for buying old guns. Keep in mind 50 years ago was 1968 so there are a tonnnnn of cool guns under that umbrella. The only other thing I'd say is that, for a lot of guns, it can be tough to prove what year they're actually from. Is a S&W Model 19-1 from 1969 or 1962 or what? What a Sig P210 with their weird re-used serial number blocks? It basically comes down to if you can convince an 01 FFL that it's 50 years old then you're good. Definitely something to discuss with your local guy before you pay for the gun. Having long guns shipped straight to you may also take some convincing since most FFLs outside of CA only know that we have a ton of laws and nothing is allowed. Here's one piece of evidence, DoJs FAQ says C&R FFLs are exempt from the California Licensee Check Program: https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcfaqs#4

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Bleh, the 2 close-ish BLM locations to me (Los Angeles) were permanently shut down 6mo ago.

Rubber Slug
Aug 7, 2010

THE BLUE DEMON RIDES AGAIN


There’s that new thread smell!

I can photoshop up a header if no one else wants to.

Dogbrisket
Jun 10, 2009



Postin in this thread

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!



Excellent Write up! Thanks flightless greeb!
Just doing a preliminary read through... I'll look at incorporating that later tonight if I can... Edit: Tomorrow yep.
1.) So yes, thanks for pointing out the C&R holders and the 1 in 30 handgun rule. All the C&R and non-C&R handguns all the time . Due to the case being won only "recently" (months ago, and we shouldn't have needed a case since it was right in the penal code), Dealers will still be a bit gunshy but now the DOJ has officially acknowledged it in a Dealer Bulletin. Lemme get a link to a pdf copy... https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-...4wDOd3gup4JjT5u. That bulletin can be used as extra documentation to convince a reluctant Dealer.
2.) Last I heard C&R + CoE Holders actually weren't allowed to ship rifles to their door. They can still transfer C&R rifles directly via PPT/Face-to-Face without getting a dealer/FFL01 involved, but not ship them. There was a calguns thread I linked on that... http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=1300761
One of the interesting things in that thread is someone points out the original bill (I looked it up once) which spelled out the intent of the legislature. It goes against the wording of the bill. In theory barring from shipping to one's house could be challenged in court as not being part of the intent of the legislature (I mean, CA DoJ is saying Semi-auto shotguns with detachable mags were included in the most recent AWB as part of legislative intent; No reason you can't argue the same thing for a pro-gun case). (Also I haven't re-read that thread yet, so if I got anything wrong there in my general summation, I apologize)

Otherwise though, looks like a great write up

Rubber Slug posted:

There’s that new thread smell!

I can photoshop up a header if no one else wants to.

Awesome. I just tossed out an idea for the header; Anyone else have any different suggestions (including you, the photoshopper doing the work), have at it.

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Aug 9, 2018

New Concept Hole
Oct 10, 2012

東方動的


Best part of moving imo is you never have to read Calguns again

Casull
Aug 13, 2005



New Concept Hole posted:

Best part of moving imo is you never have to read Calguns again

Unless you like pain for whatever reason.

Anyway hello new thread! There's also an IRC channel at irc.synirc.net under #thefiringrange.

flightless greeb
Jan 28, 2016



BeAuMaN posted:

2.) Last I heard C&R + CoE Holders actually weren't allowed to ship rifles to their door. They can still transfer C&R rifles directly via PPT/Face-to-Face without getting a dealer/FFL01 involved, but not ship them. There was a calguns thread I linked on that... http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=1300761
One of the interesting things in that thread is someone points out the original bill (I looked it up once) which spelled out the intent of the legislature. It goes against the wording of the bill. In theory barring from shipping to one's house could be challenged in court as not being part of the intent of the legislature (I mean, CA DoJ is saying Semi-auto shotguns with detachable mags were included in the most recent AWB as part of legislative intent; No reason you can't argue the same thing for a pro-gun case). (Also I haven't re-read that thread yet, so if I got anything wrong there in my general summation, I apologize)

Good to know! Shows how long ago I had anything shipped to me lol

Rubber Slug
Aug 7, 2010

THE BLUE DEMON RIDES AGAIN


Here's my attempt at the header.



I don’t know a good image host anymore. My understanding is imgur compresses everything now.

EDIT:

Replaced with an imgur link. Looks good enough!

Rubber Slug fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Aug 9, 2018

Henrik Zetterberg
Dec 7, 2007




loving

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Rubber Slug posted:

Here's my attempt at the header.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yz5pfoq7x4sr0n9/newsom.jpg

I don’t know a good image host anymore. My understanding is imgur compressed everything now.

I still use imgur. I didn't know they compressed but its plenty good for random forum poo poo.

MomJeans420
Mar 19, 2007

Most of the gear, most of the time


Just imagine, if we're really lucky all these effort posts may be outdated if the SCOTUS ever decides to hear another gun control case.

Dogbrisket
Jun 10, 2009



Rubber Slug posted:

Here's my attempt at the header.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yz5pfoq7x4sr0n9/newsom.jpg

I don’t know a good image host anymore. My understanding is imgur compresses everything now.

loving solid, 10/10

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Rubber Slug posted:

Here's my attempt at the header.



I don’t know a good image host anymore. My understanding is imgur compresses everything now.

EDIT:

Replaced with an imgur link. Looks good enough!



added. (also I put it on puu.sh, did that gently caress up the image?)

I appropriated a random LOTR quote off google for flavor text. If anyone can do better please do the needful.

Also flightless greeb: I just need to still make some edits I didn't have enough time last night, but it'll be done sometime after I get off work probably.

Edit: For the image, do you guys want full size or thumbnail? thumbnail doesn't expand all the way.

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Aug 9, 2018

Rubber Slug
Aug 7, 2010

THE BLUE DEMON RIDES AGAIN


Thanks everyone! Also, it’s a little small but I put the Supreme Court on top of Mount Doom. The idea is that we cast gun control bills into it to destroy them.

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flightless greeb
Jan 28, 2016



extreme lmao at that image - Beauman i think full size is probably fine

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