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Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005



I didn't have an appointment but I did ask the guy at SC Guns about the FN 57 and apparently it's back on roster (they had a competitive price on it too)

anyone ever go there?

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I Demand Food
Nov 17, 2002


Alan Smithee posted:

I didn't have an appointment but I did ask the guy at SC Guns about the FN 57 and apparently it's back on roster (they had a competitive price on it too)

anyone ever go there?

SC Guns, no.

Buying a Five-seveN, .

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Alsup is retiring.

This article implies that we could be in for a shakeup of the Ninth Circuit and other appellate courts.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_600f3759c5b676ad837652a8?rz

Darke GBF
Dec 30, 2006

The cold never bothered me anyway~


Miller hearing is today, right?

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Darke GBF posted:

Miller hearing is today, right?

Yeah. No video or audio though. FPC said the first day went well, Benitez denied various motions to exclude stuff by the state, then it ended early due to technical difficulties. Next court day is on Friday.

I mentioned earlier in discord that I would hope the opinion doesn't come this month, as the motions panel for this month (who would handle an emergency stay request from Becerra on a judicial order/opinion from Benitez) is very hostile, with the three judges having been appointed by Carter, Clinton, and Obama (with one judge having a proven anti-2A record), so hopefully the opinion doesn't come out right away and we get a more friendly motions panel during the month it comes out.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011


I hope it doesn't come out this month because the AK I paid for hasn't come in yet.

frunksock
Feb 21, 2002



SwissArmyDruid posted:

Alsup is retiring.

This article implies that we could be in for a shakeup of the Ninth Circuit and other appellate courts.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_600f3759c5b676ad837652a8?rz

Note Alsup is a district court judge, not a circuit judge (i.e., he's like Benitez in that his decision get appealed to the 9th). I didn't see anything in the article about a 9th shakeup? There aren't any current vacancies on the 9th.

Herr Tog
Jun 18, 2011



Grimey Drawer

BeAuMaN posted:

Next court day is on Friday.
.

any news?

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Herr Tog posted:

any news?

FPC is the one running this.
https://twitter.com/gunpolicy/status/1357886448771375106?s=21

They say everything went well

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16069141/miller-v-becerra/?order_by=desc
There's a rough summary in the Minute Order for the proceedings in the top entry (which is pictured in the tweet). When it references a number like 75, it refers to the document number listed in the docket (which Court listener uses the same document numbering).

Not much else atm. Would like the transcript, but when it will be available to both parties I'm not sure, and then if they're allowed to share the transcript is another issue (something something job protection for transcriptionists; transcripts aren't necessarily public record iirc... edit: I guess they're "public" after 90 days: https://www.casd.uscourts.gov/attorney/transcript-order.aspx#example-tab-top2)

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Feb 6, 2021

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


City of Los Angeles, etc. not happy with the result of the case after having destroyed that whole firearm collection (see quoted post below)... filed petition on 12/15/2020 for rehearing by the 9th circuit appeals court panel and also filed petition for 9th circuit rehearing en banc. The response by the 9th circuit came in on 2/5/2020.

quote:

Filed order (RICHARD A. PAEZ, CONSUELO M. CALLAHAN and LAWRENCE VANDYKE) The Panel has voted to deny Defendants-Appellees’ petition for rehearing. The Panel has also voted to deny Defendants-Appellees’ petition for rehearing en banc. The full court has been advised of the petition for rehearing en banc and no judge of the court has requested a vote on whether to rehear the matter en banc. Fed. R. App. P. 35. The petition for panel rehearing and the petition for rehearing en banc are DENIED. [11994042] (WL) [Entered: 02/05/2021 10:01 AM]

No judge in all of the 9th circuit court of appeals requested a vote on if it should be heard en banc. Beautiful. Will Los Angeles try to appeal to SCOTUS?

Earlier post explaining this case:

BeAuMaN posted:

Already posted this in the TFR discord, but:
New opinion issued by a 3-judge 9th circuit appeals panel on Wright v Beck filed on 12/1/2020:

New Opinion: https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2020/12/01/19-55084.pdf
Memorandum: https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/memoranda/2020/12/01/19-55084.pdf
Calguns case link: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1100712
Original Complaint in District Court from 7/31/2015: http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Complaint.pdf
Docket for Wright v Beck (District Court): https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4153149/wayne-william-wright-v-charles-l-beck/

Wright v Beck is the case of the former Glendale PD/Firefighter Helicopter Pilot/Vietnam Veteran gun collector with... approximately 463 guns... had them all seized by LAPD in a bad sting on trying to get him on illegal firearm dealing (Read original complaint for details concerning the same officers mentioned later in this complaint, it was pretty bad; Michel & Associates paints it as LAPD trying to meet gun seizure quotas for federal counterterrorism grants). LAPD didn't ultimately charge Wright for any illegal firearm dealing, but they did find an unregistered assault weapon and charged him with one count of assault weapon possession (that Mr. Wright claims to have acquired from another retired police officer's estate as said officer's Estate Executor, which he forgot about apparently), and then there was a plea agreement for probation over that charge. After probation ended, CA DOJ certified he was eligible to have firearms again so Wright applied to get his firearms back. LAPD made him prove that he owned all the guns. He asserted that he owned... I think all but 40 of them?... Provided copies of receipts, original receipts, they go back and forth on this with LAPD slacking on approving the receipts. Wright files in court, court considers some of them returned and tells them to work it out informally over the remaining firearms, and return to court only if necessary.

LAPD represents that they're still looking over his collection and proofs of purchase, yet Officer Edwards (from the LAPD Gun Unit and also the main actor in the original sting against Wright) applies for an ex parte order in a -different- court to destroy the remaining 300+ firearms, and it's granted, without any notice to Wright or without mentioning that Wright has been asserting claim over the firearms this whole time. The guns are smelted.

Wright then sues the two officers they were negotiating with and Edwards in their official and individual capacities, and the chief of police and City Attorney in their official capcities, and the city of Los Angeles; He loses in district (and state court I think, I forget), and the district judge grants qualified immunity to everybody, dismisses the failure-to-train claim (meaning the city failed to train the officers correctly, and therefore is liable), and also property/due process claims.

Federal 9th Circuit 3-Judge Panel said hell no in a 3-0 unanimous decision. They basically said Edwards knew what he was doing when going to a different court to get that ex parte destruction order, so he loses qualified immunity... There wasn't any proof linking the other two officers they were negotiating with to the firearm destruction, so they keep their qualified immunity. As the Chief and City Attorney were being sued in their official capacities, they don't get qualified immunity. Because the failure-to-train claim being dismissed hinged on the officers getting qualified immunity, it too is restored. And of course, his claim of his due process being violated forms most of the opinion, because without notice, "the right to be heard has little reality or worth." (paraphrasing from Mullane)

It gets remanded to district court. At least one person who's a lawyer says that the remand is basically just to decide damages since the opinion covers mostly everything else.
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1100712&page=5

The original judge who ruled against Wright in federal district court is dead, so it will be assigned to a new federal district court judge.

I'm usually a little more... polite? Well mannered?... when it comes to writing these summaries, but in no uncertain terms I want it to be known
Get hosed LAPD and City of LA; Burn in Hell Officer Edwards.
I hope the awarding of damages is generous for Mr. Wright and his attorneys as this seems to be blatant police corruption. It's also possible that LAPD etc. ends up appealing this en banc in the 9th circuit, but a unanimous opinion makes it more likely that such a request would be denied.

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Feb 7, 2021

Darke GBF
Dec 30, 2006

The cold never bothered me anyway~


lol you know they did some heinous poo poo when not a single judge in that court even thought the case should be heard again. Love it. Get hosed, Los Angeles~

Herr Tog
Jun 18, 2011



Grimey Drawer

i loved reading that, thank you

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Herr Tog posted:

i loved reading that, thank you

It's the feel good story of 2020/2021 that the California firearm community needed. I'll make sure to keep an eye on this case and give any more updates once we get any sentencing or payouts, though I imagine CRPA will be yelling it from the rooftops.

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005



what are "reasonable prices" for 9/45? They are over 35 bucks a box

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Alan Smithee posted:

what are "reasonable prices" for 9/45? They are over 35 bucks a box
None of the prices are reasonable atm; covid and panic buying have done a number on ammo supply, so it's hard to get enough ammo to reasonably practice.

In the "before times", you could get 9mm for uh... I dunno... 15-20 cpr (cents per round) for nothing-fancy practice ammo, and maybe defensive ammo as low as 50 cpr. Just doing a search on the gundeals subreddit during 2019. That doesn't include when various manufacturers would run rebates, especially around black friday.

.45 was similar I believe, probably 25 - 30 cpr for practice ammo, not sure on defensive.

Those are online prices; local prices would probably be higher than that, and if you ordered online you'd more than likely get it shipped to a local dealer who would charge you a fee, and you'd probably buy a bunch of rounds to save on shipping, like around 500.

As for what's reasonable in the current times; couldn't say I'm still using a bit of ammo from my stash to shoot occasionally. There's folks in the deal channel on the TFR discord that try to ping people on ammo deals, but you generally have to be fast, and also the place in question has to ship to a California dealer or do store pickup if they have a local store.

Edit: To be clear I'm not saying "Don't buy ammo", but that it'll be painful for probably 1 - 3 years. You just have to work at finding a decent deal. Other goons could perhaps comment on what's "reasonable" during COVID?
The "1 - 3 years" figure is based off of previous experiences people have had when ammo was bought in a panic.

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Feb 8, 2021

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005



I do have a box full of FMJ .45 that I got from the range, back when they let you take them home.

still waiting for my CZ 97B and was wondering if anyone had any jhp they wanted to trade eventually when I get (would rather they not go through the 5 neighbor walls if It ever came to that)

Darke GBF
Dec 30, 2006

The cold never bothered me anyway~


I saw someone post a deal on the gundeals subreddit today for 9mm. 520 bucks for 1000 rounds, or 52 cents per round, before shipping.

It sold out within an hour. I was lucky to snag half that price per round like 6 months ago, and haven't bought ammo since. Prices are hosed right now and by the look of it, only getting worse.

SeANMcBAY
Jun 28, 2006

Look on the bright side.




That’s why I’ve only been doing dry fire practice since covid hit.

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005



"drat all my enemies are downrange, and I keep getting 1:1 headshots"

frunksock
Feb 21, 2002



I'm loading 9mm at about 17cpr for components but only until I run out of primers, and then I guess I'll stop shooting because primers alone are going for 30-40cpr now. Hopefully things get back to normal before that.

MomJeans420
Mar 19, 2007





drat, I didn't know even components had gotten that crazy. It's been years since I last purchased a bunch of primers but I remember thinking they were just a few cents each back then.

frunksock
Feb 21, 2002



Yeah they're normally about 4cpr.

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005



what's the law for selling ammo between normies anyway? Does it still have to go through FFL

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Alan Smithee posted:

what's the law for selling ammo between normies anyway? Does it still have to go through FFL
Generally yes. If you sell Face to Face at a dealer the fee for the transfer can be no more than $5, in addition to the ammo background check fee (which should be $1 unless the purchaser isn't in AFS; then it's $19). If you aren't immediately present then the dealer can charge you some other additional fee they make up.

There's an exemption for Collectors (FFL03 + CoE), where if the receiver/purchaser is a licensed collector then the purchase doesn't have to go through a dealer, per CA PC 30312(c)(6).

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Feb 9, 2021

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005



uh is the lock a required purchase or did I just get upsold?

astropika
Jul 5, 2007
no, not really

Alan Smithee posted:

uh is the lock a required purchase or did I just get upsold?

Mandatory unless you sign an affidavit certifying you own a safe.

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


astropika posted:

Mandatory unless you sign an affidavit certifying you own a safe.
As stated by astropika. Specifically form BOF-978. The top portion is if you own a gun safe saying that it meets all the above requirements. The bottom is a lockbox (think cheap stack-on gun locker or one of those handgun lockboxes) that's CA DoJ certified. The bottom portion requires a receipt proving you own it, along with make and model.

But yeah, they will totally upsell you on that lock too, in that they price it more than the thing is worth. Bring that with you on the next gun purchase in case it's not provided.

Also I'm assuming you bought a rifle. Handguns, by Federal law iirc, come with a gun lock included. Unless it's used I suppose. If it was a new handgun without a gun lock then you got swindled iirc.

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Feb 17, 2021

Preechr
May 19, 2009

Proud member of the Pony-Brony Alliance for Obama as President


Huh. The long guns I bought in California all came with locks, even though I had a lock with me. The locks were free, though.

astropika
Jul 5, 2007
no, not really

BeAuMaN posted:

But yeah, they will totally upsell you on that lock too, in that they price it more than the thing is worth. Bring that with you on the next gun purchase in case it's not provided.

Keep in mind if you bring your own lock you have to show proof of purchase in the last 30 days for it to count, no old locks.

Henrik Zetterberg
Dec 7, 2007




astropika posted:

Keep in mind if you bring your own lock you have to show proof of purchase in the last 30 days for it to count, no old locks.

Lmao this is the dumbest loving thing if true.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011


It is 100% true. They're trying to spur you to have a safe that fits all your guns, or a lock for every gun.

astropika
Jul 5, 2007
no, not really

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Lmao this is the dumbest loving thing if true.

This is what is known as a 'common sense gun safety measure"

Henrik Zetterberg
Dec 7, 2007




Indeed, it is common sense that a gun lock 31 days old no longer functions properly. We are all much safer.

That said, I've had mixed experiences. All my handguns came with a lock. And I want to say a couple rifles came with them as well. I don't think the shotgun came with anything? I can't remember.
But the lowers I've purchased technically required a lock by law (I believe), and I brought one just in case they were going to make me lock a lower on the way out, but they didn't give nor require one.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


astropika posted:

Keep in mind if you bring your own lock you have to show proof of purchase in the last 30 days for it to count, no old locks.

Easier to bring proof you have a safe.

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


astropika posted:

Keep in mind if you bring your own lock you have to show proof of purchase in the last 30 days for it to count, no old locks.
Ah yes, I forgot about that one. I have my receipt for my "CA Certified Lockbox" scanned and I just fill out the affidavit when doing a transfer.

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005



BeAuMaN posted:

As stated by astropika. Specifically form BOF-978. The top portion is if you own a gun safe saying that it meets all the above requirements. The bottom is a lockbox (think cheap stack-on gun locker or one of those handgun lockboxes) that's CA DoJ certified. The bottom portion requires a receipt proving you own it, along with make and model.

But yeah, they will totally upsell you on that lock too, in that they price it more than the thing is worth. Bring that with you on the next gun purchase in case it's not provided.

Also I'm assuming you bought a rifle. Handguns, by Federal law iirc, come with a gun lock included. Unless it's used I suppose. If it was a new handgun without a gun lock then you got swindled iirc.

CZ 97B. Guy said the lock it comes with isn't CA compliant?

If I bought a used simplex lockbox off ebay would that work?


It's branded but I think it's based on the V-line one?

what do I even do, bring the drat thing in and plop it on the counter?

it's weird cuz uh...they didn't really care first time I bought from them...

The Royal Nonesuch
Nov 1, 2005



Every new firearm I've purchased has come with it's own brand new cable lock without additional cost. When I have bought used in a P2P transaction, I try to remember to bring a lock with me in case the seller forgot to provide one - if possible it should be put in the box/case ahead of time and "come with the firearm" which IIRC is some letter-of-the-law thing for stickler FFLs. The couple of times I/seller forgot to bring one, yes I had to pay $5-$7 for one of those bullshit things.

Don't know about the safe affidavit, as mine is far too old to be listed on any sort of CA database that I'm guessing is required.

Alan Smithee posted:

it's weird cuz uh...they didn't really care first time I bought from them...

You will encounter this sort of thing. Just roll with whichever way they're going and definitely never raise a stink or comment about "LAST TIME YOU DIDN'T MAKE ME DO THIS". Be cool, and one day you might become a favored regular/cool guy who doesn't have to prove he knows how to engage the safety when you're buying something.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Alan Smithee posted:

CZ 97B. Guy said the lock it comes with isn't CA compliant?

If I bought a used simplex lockbox off ebay would that work?


It's branded but I think it's based on the V-line one?

what do I even do, bring the drat thing in and plop it on the counter?

it's weird cuz uh...they didn't really care first time I bought from them...

You show them a receipt for it. A lot of places will not ask questions if you don't.

Skinnymansbeerbelly
Mar 31, 2010


I miss the FFL that used to have a gigantic tub full of Project Childsafe locks just for this.

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BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Alan Smithee posted:

CZ 97B. Guy said the lock it comes with isn't CA compliant?
That's unusual afaik. But per CA PC 23635 the lock on the firearm, when sold by a dealer, must be on the CA DoJ Roster of Approved Firearm Safety Devices. Taking a look at the roster I don't see CZ listed; unless they use a lock by another manufacturer (I mean tbh they're all probably made in the same few factories in China).
Did the dealer give you the CZ lock in addition to the one they had you purchase or did they pocket it?
Fake edit: Probably pocketed it since they're barred from selling non-approved locks per CA PC 32660. They could probably "give" it to you but it's not worth flirting so close to the line.

Alan Smithee posted:

If I bought a used simplex lockbox off ebay would that work?


It's branded but I think it's based on the V-line one?

what do I even do, bring the drat thing in and plop it on the counter?
If you're buying a lock box (as opposed to a safe), you'll want to check that the model in question is listed on the CA DoJ Roster of Approved Firearm Safety Devices. If yes, go ahead and purchase, then you keep the receipt. In this case the receipt would be digital; "print" a digital pdf and stuff it in a cloud account and/or somewhere on your hard drive to access. When you do a firearm purchase, have that receipt ready; the Dealer will need to make a copy, and make sure to know the make and model of your lockbox (it's not always listed on receipts). Then if the dealer says it didn't come with an approved safety device, tell them you have a CA DoJ certified lock box and you'd like to sign the affidavit, which is the previously mentioned BOF-978. For lock boxes you fill out the bottom portion. That said, keep in mind that in the affidavit you're stating that the lock box will "accommodate the firearm(s) I am taking delivery". You're also stating in the affidavit that you didn't bring the lock box in question because it was either permanently affixed or too large/heavy to bring with you, and in the affidavit you're writing down the make and model. As such if you go with a handgun lock box then you can't use it for a long gun purchase. Something like a gun cabinet like a Stack-On you could use for all firearm purchases but if that doesn't fit in your house/apartment then maybe paying for the gun lock works better in that case.

As an aside on sourcing references for DOJ-Certified Lock Boxes... CA PC 23635(c) references "Safety Devices" with the 30 day receipt requirement, and Lock Boxes are considered a Firearm Safety Device in the roster. However CA DoJ passed different regulations for Lock Boxes (like Stack-on Cabinets and small handgun lock boxes) under CA CCR § 4102 which doesn't have the 30 day receipt requirement. I bring that up since I have heard of stores (like Turner's) in the past saying that lock boxes don't count (they're wrong).

The Royal Nonesuch posted:

Don't know about the safe affidavit, as mine is far too old to be listed on any sort of CA database that I'm guessing is required.
If you have a legit safe, as opposed to a gun cabinet lock box kind of thing, then it isn't CA DoJ certified. It merely needs to meet these requirements

The Royal Nonesuch posted:

You will encounter this sort of thing. Just roll with whichever way they're going and definitely never raise a stink or comment about "LAST TIME YOU DIDN'T MAKE ME DO THIS". Be cool, and one day you might become a favored regular/cool guy who doesn't have to prove he knows how to engage the safety when you're buying something.
Yeah but if I feel the dealer is trying to upsell me on bullshit (like a lovely lock) I'm going to politely give them the option to not swindle me before raising stink. But in general yeah might as well just let the transaction be smooth.

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Feb 18, 2021

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