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Baronash
Feb 29, 2012

So what do you want to be called?

he1ixx, I appreciate the write ups about your housing plan. My wife and I rent, which isn't likely to change for a while yet, but we're both in agreement about wanting a net-zero home when we finally decide to settle someplace for more than 2-3 years.

When you were looking for architects, did you have to find someone who specialized in net-zero design, or are most architects going to be familiar with the concept?

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he1ixx
Aug 23, 2007

still bad at video games

Baronash posted:

he1ixx, I appreciate the write ups about your housing plan. My wife and I rent, which isn't likely to change for a while yet, but we're both in agreement about wanting a net-zero home when we finally decide to settle someplace for more than 2-3 years.

When you were looking for architects, did you have to find someone who specialized in net-zero design, or are most architects going to be familiar with the concept?

Good question. We started by looking for builders and architects who specialized in net-zero and passivehaus. There are apparently a lot of new technologies and techniques in that space and they are constantly evolving. Because those folks are steeped in it, they tend to keep up with it better than the average architect. It is an entire strata of house building all its own. Depending on your state, it may or may not be more prevalent so like, with Vermont, there are net-zero architect associations (usually look for "energy efficient", "net-zero") to find one of those associations near you (Vermont has a few like "Vermont Green Home Alliance" among others).

Once you start down the path, you'll find that architects usually like working with specific builders because they know how the net-zero houses are put together, how heating and cooling systems are designed, how they even do "basic" stuff like put up a wall. Both our architect and builder both mentioned that, if you don't find subcontractors who have done this before, they they will invariably oversize your heating and cooling systems, adding cost etc. They basically can't grok the fact that the house envelope can really be that efficient so they fall back on their standard calculations.

One quick story -- our architect said to me a week or two ago "Imagine if you have super efficiently insulated wall that is well sealed and just doesn't leak air. A traditional contractor will come in here and oversize your heating based on standard air leakage. It sounds like that wouldn't be a big deal but what you get is a system that comes on, blasts hot air in order to heat a much leakier space and it ends up not being good for the heating system, it causes temperature spikes in the house and often causes moisture and dampness issues because the temperature doesn't come up slowly." So in a nutshell, the little things end up mattering a lot and having someone who has dealt with it in the design stages before will save you time and money down the road.

Dawncloack
Nov 26, 2007
ECKS DEE!

Nap Ghost

Is there any proven resource on insulation for roofs? I might want to leave a roof in tip top condiition in the future and I wanna do it right.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


I found a cool article in an old swedish paper from 1951 and I don't know where to put it, but it feels kinda alternative/eco/buildling related so I thought of this thread.

http://runeberg.org/tektid/1951/0890.html

So the article is about, at the time, modern central heating, which was then via a boiler and pipes to carry heat to radiators. Wood was a desireable fuel but wood fired boilers back then had low efficiencies. What did burn wood quite efficiently however was the venerable "kakelugn" a massive type of fireplace that circulated the smoke through channels to extract most of the heat from it. Problems with that is they only heat a room at a time and there'd be a lot of labour keeping them going.

So hence this idea, it was called a "heating wall". Basically instead of a fireplace, the house was built around a central brick wall that went through the length of the house.


The google translatred article says:

quote:

Heating wall-central heating.
The usual hot water heating system is generally based on boilers intended for coke or oil, in larger plants also coal. With wood, as is well known, you usually get poor efficiency in boilers. Wood burning gives the best results in masonry fireplaces, such as tiled stoves, but the use of tiled stoves for Home heating involves a lot of work for maintenance.

Many attempts have been made to centralize furnace firing in housing. In smaller buildings with 2—1 rooms, it works without difficulty, but in larger buildings it is difficult to get one even distribution of heat. With circulating hot air you can distribute the heat, but the oven must be large, if the heat accumulation is to be sufficient.

A new heating system has been designed in Finland by R Zeidler. This consists of a brick "central oven" and a brick wall running through the entire building, provided with ducts for the flue gases (Figs. 1 and 2). This wall serves both as a heating element and heat accumulator.

The central fireplace, which is placed in the basement, is a magazine fired with 0.5 m3 of wood, with the combustion gases passing the glow layer, so that the tar products decompose. In a flame chamber secondary air is added for the final combustion of flue gasses. Hereafter tertiary air is added to lower the flue gas temperature to about 400 ° C, whereupon the flue gases go into those risers visible in Fig. 2.


Fig. 2. Section of heating wall.

The flue gases are distributed with the horizontal channels on them vertical heating elements, where they go under cooling down. Then they are led through horizontal channels the chimneys, where they go away at a temperature of 40-50 ° C. Due to the low exhaust temperature you get easily condensation in the chimneys. These have therefore been provided with water separators.

The firing of a wood filling takes about 3 hours, but due of the plant's large heat accumulation capacity you do not need to fire more than every two or three days. The efficiency is high, 90-93% acordig to measurements. In a two-storey villa with 700 m3 volume, only about 17 m3 of wood was consumed for one heating season, which was about half of the ration. Heating wall surface temperature is low, not exceeding 30 ° C, so as to avoid any odor of burnt dust. Normally the gases are circulated by natural draft, but in a larger facility it may be necessary to have a circulating fan, however, of the ducts cross section can be reduced (Heating and sanitary technology 1950 h. 1, The builder 1950 h. 12). Wll

Ration probably refers to firewood rationing in WW2. It sounds like a pretty cool concept and sports some very high efficiencies for such old style tech, and secondary burning of the flue gasses too, that's something I associate with modern boilers. Downside is you can't retrofit this into an existing house really. And chimney sweeping will be a bitch.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




Oh hey, neat, that sounds like a gasifying stove.

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.



The whole interior wall as a chimney/radiator, that's a logical conclusion of the contemporary design, always neat to see something like that.

Lead out in cuffs
Sep 18, 2012

"That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."



Yeah really, that's very elegant.

I've something similar-ish (bench not wall), but the janky hippie version:

https://permies.com/wiki/57365/Rocket-Mass-Heater-Builder-Guide


His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


cakesmith handyman posted:

The whole interior wall as a chimney/radiator, that's a logical conclusion of the contemporary design, always neat to see something like that.

The concept seems cool but I think it never took off. I was most impressed that such an old design had a secondary burn of flue gasses, that's a big deal for efficiency. But they are actually very simple to bring into use, basically you need some headroom above the fire and a supply of fresh air that goes there. Really cuts down on the amount of sweeping you have to do as well. My own masonry heater has a chamber like that and some holes infront of the fire chamber that lead air up into that space for secondary combustion. Real simple and no fans required.

On second thought, I guess it take off in a limited fashion. In finnish houses there'd be a wall sort of like this with channels to circulate the smoke behind the wood fired cast iron stove. That would be used to retain heat from cooking in winter. During summer you could shut off the channels and open a bypass since then you did not want the additional heat.

Swedish masonry heaters (rörspisar) are also very nice, and simple to build. It's a kakelugn but no kakel (tile), kakelugn was a thing for rich people, rörspis was for the everyman. I think anyone who wants a fireplace, should consider this design. Firebricks and render basically. One of these would be simple to redesign a little to add some extra fresh air to the flue gasses and add secondary combustion, to make it even more efficient IMO.





Nice piece of fish
Jan 29, 2008



Ultra Carp

Absolutely brilliant design for efficiency, only unfortunate thing is the obvious one where it's a likely firetrap for chimney fires and we'd never get it approved under the existing fire code and bulding code (TEK17). Which is a damned shame, something with these kinds of efficiencies ought to be mandatory in wood heated housing. There is a wood-stove floor heating design that's approved, but it has lower efficiencies than this design by a lot.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


It should be sweepable (the wall that is, rörspisar and such are already sweepable by design), but I read it'd require something like 40 openings for sweeping, so it'd be a lot of work. But with the secondary flue gas combustion, it burns a lot cleaner so you need to sweep a lot less.

Also a local company is making something similar, but on a small scale, and claims they got a patent on it.
https://www.uunisepat.fi/se/v%C3%A5ra-eldst%C3%A4der/v%C3%A4rmev%C3%A4gg

Link in swedish. Basically it's one of these modern radiative heaters fitted with a big chimney block with channels to pass the smoke through for added efficiency.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


Here's an artice on green building in Finland, article is in swedish but can be google translated somewhat competently.

https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2021/01/16/dromhuset-ar-byggt-av-lera-betong-och-halm-nykarlebybor-bygger-atervinner-och

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


Found an english article on masonry heaters and this guy seems to be fully cognizant of the importance of extra fresh air for secondary combustion
https://www.pyromasse.ca/en/origin.html



quote:

As the fire burns, air is drawn in through the primary air intake (B), passes up through the grate in the firebox floor (C) and feeds the burning wood load. Due to the internal dimensions of the fire box and its angled ceiling, heat radiating from the fire is reflected off the firebox walls (represented by the droken lines) back on to the fire, helping obtain firebox temperatures of 600 Degrees C. a prerequisite for secondary ignition. This describes the underdraft method of firing. For a comparative description of under and over draft methods of firing, see Firing Instructions. Air from the secondary air intake (D) located in the loading doors, the flame and unburnt gases rush up through the narrow throat in the firebox ceiling (E) and enter the secondary combustion chamber (F). Due to the angled ceiling, the flame, air and gases are pressurised slightly. Once through the throat they expand, tumble and mix, allowing secondary combustion and temperatures in the region of 900 degrees C ( 2,200 degrees F). The hot gases pass over the top of the side walls of the secondary combustion chamber into the vertical flues on both sides of the heater.(G) Drawn by the draft from the chimney, the hot air flows down the flues transferring its heat to the flue walls before entering the chimney at the base of the heater (G).

Quite similar to my own heater, except mine does not have a restriction like that.

Also some interesting text here, under air and over air. I think most masonry heater designs here are still under air. Not sure it makes that much difference, perhaps to durability, but combustion efficiency should be more or less the same. That kind of design is more reminiscient of more efficient types of wood boilers to me.

https://www.pyromasse.ca/en/firing.html

quote:

When initially introduced to North America 35 years ago the stoves built were fired with under air. This air delivery method allows air to enter below the fire box and rush up through a cast iron grate in the fire box floor. The air enters the centre of the wood load and blows flame upwards in all directions.

quote:

Today most masonry heaters built in North America are fired with over air. With this method no air comes through the grate which is only used to allow ash to drop and is not necessary at all.


His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


Decided to take a look at my masonry heater:



You can see the fresh air intake slot if you look carefully (one big hole and not several, remembered incorrectly there).


Closer look at the fresh air intake infront of the grille


Firebox:


Upwards look, hmm, there is a small contraction actually!


This thing is made not from firebricks but some kind of industrial byproduct that has a very high thermal capacity and resistance.

You can see there is some black here but it's been in use for almost 7 years now and never sweeped. Only the chimney needs sweeping, did that once in 2017 and the sweeper said it was nearly clean anyway. With fireplaces like this, the health hazards of firewood are greately reduced.

EDIT:
Fired it up, inside looks like this:


Outside it looks like this, photo is not the easiest with the grey overcast sky but in real life I couldn't see any smoke either. Usually it just smokes the first couple of minutes until the heat has had time to ramp up.

His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Jan 25, 2021

wooger
Apr 16, 2005

YOU RESENT?

An episode of the UK tv show grand designs featured a (near) 100% passively heated / cooled house, using the climate battery concept plus being mostly buried under tons of earth like a hobbit house (and insulation).
Episode is called: Bletchley 2021

It seemed to work, and helpfully they’d run underfloor heating pipes so they can supplement in the future.

Worth a look, though it’s one of the more UK specific and eccentric episodes - and our climate is a hell of a lot less extreme than what you’re dealing with in the US.

It’s on channel4.com in the UK, can be found online via other means though for USians, or use a vpn.

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface


Whats the concensus on dome houses.

Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Feb 8, 2021

CRUSTY MINGE
Mar 30, 2011
Chelsea Manning is a goddamned HERO


I'm putting some thought into a greenhouse dome large enough to build a house within. I want a comfortable patch of grass my dog can poo poo on in relative warmth in a high alpine valley. Also a tree or two I'll have to bitch about pruning a few times a year after a decade of untended growth. Rig up something to open windows at the top and have a bunch hinged so they can open in arms' reach. Slap a little 600 sq ft cabin inside and enjoy low heating costs. I'm thinking a 60ft diameter would get me what I'm looking for, and possibly make the county scratch their heads over approving anything I bring them.

The county I'm looking at has like, 2 pages for land use permit information. 40psf snow load, 115mph wind, 2018 IBC/IRC, requisite soil survey for septic, well permit, utilities inspections, etc. Access permit is $50, mailing address permit is $50, cheap building permit as long as it's not a trailer, which carry very heavy permit fees as a means of keeping people from dragging them into the county.

No way in hell I'm getting a loan for the dome, so I'll have to piece it together after I beg the USDA for a rural development loan for the cabin first. It's a couple years away, but that's what I'm daydreaming about. It's going to be a lot of math and glass and manual labor.

kicks forts
Feb 19, 2006

cheers

Anybody had experience with Earthbag constructions?

Lead out in cuffs
Sep 18, 2012

"That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."



CRUSTY MINGE posted:

I'm putting some thought into a greenhouse dome large enough to build a house within. I want a comfortable patch of grass my dog can poo poo on in relative warmth in a high alpine valley. Also a tree or two I'll have to bitch about pruning a few times a year after a decade of untended growth. Rig up something to open windows at the top and have a bunch hinged so they can open in arms' reach. Slap a little 600 sq ft cabin inside and enjoy low heating costs. I'm thinking a 60ft diameter would get me what I'm looking for, and possibly make the county scratch their heads over approving anything I bring them.

The county I'm looking at has like, 2 pages for land use permit information. 40psf snow load, 115mph wind, 2018 IBC/IRC, requisite soil survey for septic, well permit, utilities inspections, etc. Access permit is $50, mailing address permit is $50, cheap building permit as long as it's not a trailer, which carry very heavy permit fees as a means of keeping people from dragging them into the county.

No way in hell I'm getting a loan for the dome, so I'll have to piece it together after I beg the USDA for a rural development loan for the cabin first. It's a couple years away, but that's what I'm daydreaming about. It's going to be a lot of math and glass and manual labor.

Have other people done this before? I'd be worried about humidity/moisture, but maybe you can manage that with the windows?

CRUSTY MINGE
Mar 30, 2011
Chelsea Manning is a goddamned HERO


Humidity is not really a concern at 7500 feet of elevation. Well, not as much as it is at sea level.

kicks forts
Feb 19, 2006

cheers

I saw a geodesic dome made of bolted together hexagonal acrylic sheets; I don't know the difference between solid acrylic and glass in heat retention other than glass will be better in every way. I don't even know if big acrylic hexes are cheaper than glass but they would be pretty hard to break.

Have you considered polythene sheeting? It's a cheaper, much worse version of glass. But it's cheaper.

Also a dome or greenhouse without "permanent" foundations counts as a temporary structure in my locale so might help avoid permits. although if they hate trailers maybe that's not much help.

Maybe just a glass walled porch facing the sun to trap heat in the house? There is an amusing trend of people in rainy England getting glasshouse/conservatories build onto their house as a connected room, and everyone wilts from the heat in the first summer and replaces the glass roof lol.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


Lead out in cuffs posted:

Have other people done this before? I'd be worried about humidity/moisture, but maybe you can manage that with the windows?

It's been done in sweden.

https://www.ecorelief.se/

only in swedish tho

CRUSTY MINGE
Mar 30, 2011
Chelsea Manning is a goddamned HERO


kicks forts posted:

I saw a geodesic dome made of bolted together hexagonal acrylic sheets; I don't know the difference between solid acrylic and glass in heat retention other than glass will be better in every way. I don't even know if big acrylic hexes are cheaper than glass but they would be pretty hard to break.

Have you considered polythene sheeting? It's a cheaper, much worse version of glass. But it's cheaper.

Also a dome or greenhouse without "permanent" foundations counts as a temporary structure in my locale so might help avoid permits. although if they hate trailers maybe that's not much help.

Maybe just a glass walled porch facing the sun to trap heat in the house? There is an amusing trend of people in rainy England getting glasshouse/conservatories build onto their house as a connected room, and everyone wilts from the heat in the first summer and replaces the glass roof lol.

I haven't spent the most time researching window panels yet. I'll likely panel up some north facing spaces with wood for a while before eventually replacing them with some variety of acrylic or vinyl, maybe recycle some glass.

I'd probably put in concrete piles for a foundation. The counties out there are rough on trailers because they don't want to be littered with even more trailers. Lots of weird properties out there, but it's not the wild west it used to be. A dome would probably be welcome, it's more about not making yet another eyesore. It's cheap rear end land out there, so it attracts a demographic of crazy people who are probably too deep into UFOs and bigfoot. It's a high alpine valley that's a good deal of scrubland.

Those glass walled porch greenhouse things just aren't what I'm looking for, I can't grow a few thousand square feet of grass in something that small. Winters are a bit rough up there and I'm not kidding when I say I want warm grass for my dog to poo poo on in January. I'll settle for better than freezing. I'd love to do a 20 meter diameter dome, but 15 meter would probably get me what I'm looking for, though a little tight.

kicks forts
Feb 19, 2006

cheers

If it's that cold, glass and wood are best at thermal retention. A traditional agricultural greenhouse shape might be cheaper. Especially if self building with timber. Might be better for squeezing a regular cabin inside and maximizing floorspace. I believe that is what the couple did in the popularised example.


There is also a "Dutch" traditional greenhouse design where the walls are flared out rather than 90 degree, to take advantage of refraction.

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.



Have you plugged any numbers into the dome generator calculators?

This 6v dome calculator shows a 20m diameter dome requires triangular panes over 2m a side.

Basically domes this big are monstrous constructions.

cakesmith handyman fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Feb 8, 2021

CRUSTY MINGE
Mar 30, 2011
Chelsea Manning is a goddamned HERO


Yes I've seen domeramas' expired certificate site. I leaned more toward a 4/9 3v when I started thinking about this. If the windows wind up needing to be huge, I'll frame smaller triangle shapes together to fit. The glass doesn't need to be one constant piece, and will likely be leftover greenhouse poo poo anyhow.

Kicks, I was thinking 2x6 or 2x8 timber for the frame. It's just more cost effective than ordering a steel kit, especially if I wind up just using thin, flexible plastic poo poo for the windows. And yeah, it's cold and dry enough there that it's likely a good enough choice.

All still very preliminary. Any actual building is a minimum of a year away.


E: there's also that new transparent wood that's in development.

CRUSTY MINGE fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Feb 8, 2021

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.



CRUSTY MINGE posted:

Yes I've seen domeramas' expired certificate site.

It's endearingly Geocities isn't it.

quote:

I leaned more toward a 4/9 3v when I started thinking about this. If the windows wind up needing to be huge, I'll frame smaller triangle shapes together to fit. The glass doesn't need to be one constant piece, and will likely be leftover greenhouse poo poo anyhow.

Kicks, I was thinking 2x6 or 2x8 timber for the frame. It's just more cost effective than ordering a steel kit, especially if I wind up just using thin, flexible plastic poo poo for the windows. And yeah, it's cold and dry enough there that it's likely a good enough choice.

Triangular frames 4.4/4.2m per side. Even subdivided you'll need those 4.2/4.4m lengths as single pieces for strength I guess, unless they're all doubled or tripled up. Kind of feels like the higher v domes make more sense the larger you go, but I'm not a professional dome-guy.

quote:

E: there's also that new transparent wood that's in development.

Haha lol no. Wood treated and bleached then infused with clear resin, plastic or glass would be better/cheaper/infinitely easier to get.

CRUSTY MINGE
Mar 30, 2011
Chelsea Manning is a goddamned HERO


I'll be picking an engineers mind at some point, because the county is probably going to want stamped plans for it. I'll generally take their advice on this.

Going to need to talk to one about the cabin itself anyhow, since I'm planning on using cribbed 4x4s for the walls. There's current precedent for it in EZLog cabin kits, but 4x4s bought locally from a mill will be cheaper, and 3/4" thicker than the walls they provide in their premium models. I did the math at one point for 1200sqft of interior space, stacking 4x4s is more expensive than traditional stick framed walls, but stronger and easier to do with little manpower. There's amish in the area, too, and some of them do contract roofing and construction.

I would love to do a post and beam structure with hempcrete walls, the insulation value is great, but the lime used is expensive and from some part of France, so it'd absolutely murder the skin-of-my-rear end budget I'll be working on.

I might buy land this year for this project. Might. Kinda dependent on some stuff, but there's a chance I wind up throwing in on a big plot of land with a friend so we can share septic and a well. If that pans out, I'll probably be able to start the cabin next year.

Baronash
Feb 29, 2012

So what do you want to be called?

I'm with the person upthread who suggested an agricultural-style greenhouse. You could still build your cabin inside, but my assumption is that you would probably get more usable space out of it. Alternatively, you could get away with a smaller greenhouse that butts up against your cabin. Still gives your dog the front yard vibe.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




cakesmith handyman posted:

Haha lol no. Wood treated and bleached then infused with clear resin, plastic or glass would be better/cheaper/infinitely easier to get.

I mean that's what that 'clear wood' was, if I understood it correctly. Bleached 1mm thick wood with hydrogen peroxide, then treated with clear epoxy. It's basically fiberglass with lignin instead of glass fibers.

Tezer
Jul 9, 2001



His Divine Shadow posted:

Decided to take a look at my masonry heater:


Thanks for the in-depth look at your masonry heater, really interesting.

For people in the United States (and really, New England) a good resource is "Masonry Heaters" by Ken Matesz. He runs Maine Wood Heat Company.
https://mainewoodheat.com/

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.



Liquid Communism posted:

I mean that's what that 'clear wood' was, if I understood it correctly. Bleached 1mm thick wood with hydrogen peroxide, then treated with clear epoxy. It's basically fiberglass with lignin instead of glass fibers.

Yeah sorry, I punctuated that poorly:

cakesmith handyman posted:

Haha lol no. Wood treated and bleached then infused with clear resin?

Plastic or glass would be better/cheaper/infinitely easier to get.

CRUSTY MINGE
Mar 30, 2011
Chelsea Manning is a goddamned HERO


Baronash posted:

I'm with the person upthread who suggested an agricultural-style greenhouse. You could still build your cabin inside, but my assumption is that you would probably get more usable space out of it. Alternatively, you could get away with a smaller greenhouse that butts up against your cabin. Still gives your dog the front yard vibe.

I've thought about this too. There's a handful of failed weed greenhouses in the area and I'm sure the recycling yard is littered with good materials. It ends up being more expensive in materials to build a traditional style greenhouse than a dome, though. Usable square footage is an obvious increase but I'm not as worried about around the edges, that's grass and garden space.

I've thought about secondary greenhouses radiating from it, which is a good idea too. Like I said, all of this is very preemptive planning, there's a chance I change my mind on a lot of details based on what ends up being cost effective. If that means a smaller greenhouse over the cabin and a handful of small ones attached and around it, so be it.


That transparent wood poo poo was in the news today so it felt relevant. I'd be curious to see how it holds up to a good Colorado hail storm though.

kicks forts
Feb 19, 2006

cheers

Haha wow I just realized 20m wide means a 10 metre tall dome. Wow. I know it doesn't have to be a perfect semicircle but do it anyway. one storey cabin w/a three story chimney.

Lead out in cuffs
Sep 18, 2012

"That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."



CRUSTY MINGE posted:

I'll be picking an engineers mind at some point, because the county is probably going to want stamped plans for it. I'll generally take their advice on this.

Going to need to talk to one about the cabin itself anyhow, since I'm planning on using cribbed 4x4s for the walls. There's current precedent for it in EZLog cabin kits, but 4x4s bought locally from a mill will be cheaper, and 3/4" thicker than the walls they provide in their premium models. I did the math at one point for 1200sqft of interior space, stacking 4x4s is more expensive than traditional stick framed walls, but stronger and easier to do with little manpower. There's amish in the area, too, and some of them do contract roofing and construction.

I would love to do a post and beam structure with hempcrete walls, the insulation value is great, but the lime used is expensive and from some part of France, so it'd absolutely murder the skin-of-my-rear end budget I'll be working on.

I might buy land this year for this project. Might. Kinda dependent on some stuff, but there's a chance I wind up throwing in on a big plot of land with a friend so we can share septic and a well. If that pans out, I'll probably be able to start the cabin next year.

peanut posted:

Pre-cut lumber frames, subfloor, and subroof are assembled in one day

https://youtu.be/dC-FDP9uxSo

CRUSTY MINGE
Mar 30, 2011
Chelsea Manning is a goddamned HERO


More like this than that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-zoB8Z3y3E

But with locally milled lumber instead of a shipped kit from the east coast.


kicks forts posted:

Haha wow I just realized 20m wide means a 10 metre tall dome. Wow. I know it doesn't have to be a perfect semicircle but do it anyway. one storey cabin w/a three story chimney.

County limit is 35 feet tall before variance is required.

Also why I like the 4/9 domes over 5/9 domes, so more like 9~ meters tall.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


I was just introduced to a new device that we'll be fitting our sauna wood burning heaters with that are going to Germant, where they have a very strict emissions standard (BlmSchV-2).

In order to meet that standard the firebox of the heater is fitted with two 12mm or half inch steel plates like this:


They direct some of the air around the fire and let it pass up the sides uncombusted, which means the flue gasses get fresh air for... secondary combustion! Sure you reduce the amount of wood you can fit in the heater, but you increase it's efficiency so it needs less firewood and it will burn cleaner. I think it's genius in it's simplicity. You can put the air holes in the front or the back depending on how you place the plates.

His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Feb 9, 2021

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His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


Here's an article from a 1937 swedish technical magazine about various wood burning stoves. It seems wood burning technology was a lot more advanced than I thought back then.

http://runeberg.org/tektid/1937a/0448.html

quote:

Technical Journal

The kitchen and its technical equipment.

Contemporary wood stoves.

It is now almost 20 years since I made my first
acquaintance with a wood stove, when I connected one
flue gas analyzer and a thermocouple in its flue
and helped my old aunt bake.
The carbon dioxide content was about 2%, the flue gas temperature about
220 ° C and the flue gas losses about 70%. It was
not strange then, that a heating engineer's feelings
rose in the face of such an apparatus.

Times have since changed significantly to that
better and overall have the wood stove. It is of one
certain interest in seeking to follow the historical
development and to seek to see what factors have influenced
the.

In Sweden, a strong one is currently on sale
modernized form of the old honest wood stove,
and also a number of special forms, among which here



Fig. 1. I. V. A. stove with 3 hotplates,
frying oven, heating oven, reversing damper for cooking
and frying, built-in hot water tank.



Fig. 2. The serving stove with 3 hotplates,
frying oven, heating oven, reversing damper for cooking
or frying and for the convection oven,
start damper, built-in hot water tank.

can be mentioned Skoglund & Olsons Ahlgrensspis,
same company I. V. A. stove, Kockums I. V. A. stove,
Pump Separators Servaspis, Thermiaverkens
Thermia stove and Ebbes mill Ebespis. Although all these in
sales liings together not far off
should reach the same turnover as them
modernized wood-burning stoves of traditional form, are
however, they are worth a mention, because at least
some of them or their predecessors have significant
affected the development.

Another appliance, which also operated the wood stove
big step forward, is the electric stove and its
cousin Agaspisen. In short, maybe you can
put it this way, that some of the above
the special types have learned the usual wood stove economy
with fuel and that the electric stove taught it good-looking.

Already quite early on, Ahlgrensspisen had one
trough-shaped fireplace with narrow rust surface or - such as a pair
manufacturers painting express themselves - a cauldron of fire. The
The combustion technical advantage of this is that everything
as the wood burns down, accumulate wood residues and
glow in the bottom of the pot and cover the rust.

The thermal stove also had an early secondary
air supply as well as a now discontinued stove type:
Näfveqvarns kulrostspis. In this magazine it deserves
perhaps mentioned, that one of the technology association on its
time organized prize competition had a certain part in this
birth of the latter type.

It seems, however, as if the I. V. A. stove
has been the one that most immediately acted as a driving force
on the old wood stove type. The I. V. A. stove has
cauldron and secondary air supply, it also had
a combustion accelerator. You could say that
was the discovery that this latter apparatus did not
was needed, which made it possible to apply one
similar fireplace in the ordinary wood stove.

With the complete combustion followed that
The I. V. A. stove could be equipped with hobs and
thereby, like the electric stove, avoiding sooting
the pans. It also picked up other features from the electric stove,
such as the built-in hot water tank. From the

quote:

Ahlgreen stove, it can be said to have picked up its spacious
ashtray.

As far as I could find, the I. Y. A. stove is for sale
now by Kockums ironworks and by Skoglund &
Olson. The service stove, which can be described as one
development form of this, manufactured by Pumpseparator.
The type can be characterized as very economical
as well as neat and clean. The price of the I. V. A. dish
stands in enameled design according to catalogs
about 300 kronor, while Servaspisens cost
seems to be around SEK 400. Because of a
some unfavorable experiences at the first of the stove type
appearance should be emphasized here, that it now has a full
satisfactory durability. It demands something better
chimney flue than the usual modernized type.

In this context, there should be reason to also
slightly mention the other special types. Forest Grove &
Olsons Ahlgrenspis should now be intended to
replaced by the company's ABSO type, which is mainly visible
closely adhere to the common type both in
with regard to equipment as price.

Thermia stove no. 120, as in size closest
adheres to those discussed above, has a spacious
fireplace, to which secondary air is supplied, which is preheated
from the bottom of the oven. It is equipped with a large
rectangular hob, built-in hot water tank
as well as hot oven as well as the I. V. A. stove. The price for completely
enamel design seems to stand a little over 300
kronor. Under the second stove manufacturers are
be extremely careful to indicate efficiency figures
or wood saving, Thermiaverken excels in
such as for the uninitiated at first glance can
seems to be well motivated, but as for it somewhat
trained the heating technician to reveal himself as either
not valid or even added to
"comparative" test, where the test conditions have by no means been
comparable.

Ebbe's mill calls its Ebespis a "wood gas stove" and
highlights several benefits. Unfortunately, I have not
had the opportunity to get acquainted with the type other
than through the company's printed matter, and these are many
scarce in terms of construction details.
It seems, however, as if the stove were
equipped with efficient traction control, which is operated
by raising and lowering the hottest by means of a steering wheel
the hob. There are also several
reversing devices. The stove is said to be able to keep fire 10-12
hours. The hottest hob is equipped with a



Fig. 4. Ebespisen with 4 hotplates, oven,
convection oven and built-in hot water tank. Operation
by means of steering wheel, reversing devices, thermometers
in frying and hot oven, insulation lid on the hottest plate.



Fig. 5. The modernized wood stove of the elderly
type also makes a good impression with its exterior.



Fig. 7. The fire pot can
is said to be a typical
fireplace form for it
modernized stove.



Fig. 8. The fireplace
trough with secondary air supply. The ashtray attached to the door,
which is provided with
screw valve for traction control.



Fig. 6. A modernized ordinary wood stove has a "fire pot",
secondary air supply and spacious ashtray. Hotplates can
be used.

Noting how figure 6 shows a similar function as the plates I mentioned in my last post. This to me is very interesting, and it shows that if you have an inefficient heater, you might be able to upgrade it rather easily. I've long wanted a wooden cooking stove and it's great to hear how advanced they became, in Sweden at least. But I doubt I will ever have one in my home, too modern and nowhere to put one.

His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Feb 10, 2021

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