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Hummer Driving Faggot
Sep 23, 2004


IS THAT A STUPID NEWBIE AVATAR? FUCK NO, YOU'RE GETTING A PENTAR

SKILCRAFT KREW Reppin' Quality Blind Made Products

If you've done some outsourcing with offshore developers, how has your experience been and who were they?

I've contracted some work on a website and used two companies: Tunga and Sloboda.

Both experiences were exactly the same.

They both start out great, finishing projects quickly and at a reasonable cost. Then as I requested more projects, they began to take their time, do lots of "refactoring" and often end up on the "pessimistic" side of their estimates. When pressed about what was taking so long the usualky answer was that I had asked them to do something they'd never done before and needed a week to research it while I was still being billed. One example was Stripe integration. I find it hard to believe that an established company full of programmers had no one on staff who had set up Stripe for a client before.

Basically, it got worse and worse until I could get to a stopping point and stop working with them.

I know experiences and projects vary wildly but I would like to hear about others' experience with outsourced web development.

Hummer Driving Faggot fucked around with this message at Aug 10, 2018 around 20:34

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Bruegels Fuckbooks
Sep 14, 2004

Now, listen - I know the two of you are very different from each other in a lot of ways, but you have to understand that as far as Grandpa's concerned, you're both pieces of shit! Yeah. I can prove it mathematically.

i think you're looking for 'offshoring vs. onshoring' as opposed to 'foreign vs. non-foreign'...

MrMoo
Sep 14, 2000



Hummer Driving enjoyable human being posted:

I find it hard to believe that an established company full of programmers had no one on staff who had set up Stripe for a client before.

I would guess that Stripe not being in Eastern Europe, Africa, or most of Asia, being a slight factor in knowledge. If you stuck to plain basic code with almost no third party integration you would be in a more productive spot.

Esposito
Apr 5, 2003

Sic transit gloria. Maybe we'll meet again someday, when the fighting stops.

Anyone notice how foreign developers are ruining our dev environment and corrupting our child processes?

return0
Apr 11, 2007


Foreigners function interface.

Boris Galerkin
Dec 17, 2011



Hummer Driving enjoyable human being posted:

When pressed about what was taking so long the usualky answer was that I had asked them to do something they'd never done before and needed a week to research it while I was still being billed.

So you expect them to do the research on how to implement something into your project on their own time for free? You're the problem here, not them.

Minus Pants
Jul 18, 2004


If they're still delivering a good product within the estimate (even if it's on the high side), I'd count that as a success. Learning a new API for integration is always billable, and it's often hard for a developer to estimate since they don't know the API... Now if they're billing 40 hours to learn Stripe and not implement anything, that's a different problem.

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


As someone who's never heard of stripe before (nor I would expect has any of my coworkers, but then I'm not a web developer), it does look fairly complex at a first glance. The basic functionality seems easy enough to implement, but if all the refunds, records, etc. need to be integrated, potentially with their own pages, I could see it taking a while.

milk moosie
Mar 5, 2005



Yeah, its not trivial. It likes to market itself as trivial, but if you want to do anything more complicated than the most basic of functionality (and you likely do), then youll be setting up endpoints and data models and the like.

Portland Sucks
Dec 21, 2004
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

You do realize there are about an infinite number of API's in use out there right? It isn't reasonable at all to ever say "I find it hard to believe that an established company full of programmers had no one on staff who had set up [literally any API] for a client before."

Che Delilas
Nov 23, 2009
FREE TIBET WEED

Portland Sucks posted:

You do realize there are about an infinite number of API's in use out there right? It isn't reasonable at all to ever say "I find it hard to believe that an established company full of programmers had no one on staff who had set up [literally any API] for a client before."

You beat me to it.

And yes research is billable. Software development is 80% research anyway; it's a creative endeavor and every device or system you integrate with has guaranteed found an exciting and unique way to break from common conventions, leave out features you'd expect them to have, and otherwise function in a way you don't expect. This poo poo is almost never plug and play despite the fact that every single software product's Marketing Website Featuring Three Boxes tells you it is.

A good developer is one that CAN learn whatever system or piece of tech a company wants to use (usually without actually consulting ahead of time with anybody who has to do the work), not one that already knows it. It costs because it's hard and most people can't do it at all.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

BETTER LIBERAL THAN SKELETAL!


OP, have you considered that the pattern is not that foreign developers are bad, but that you start out by giving them the low-hanging fruit, and with time what you give them is harder and harder to implement? We've had similar issues in house where we have a working prototype very early, but then with time elaborations that seem less and less significant take longer and longer. And yeah, the more specialized the problem, the more research is needed to do the later parts.

That seems more likely to me than a company based in the Netherlands and contracting out to African developers and a company based in Ukraine both being bad in ways that do not have to do with the tasks you give them.

Hummer Driving Faggot
Sep 23, 2004


IS THAT A STUPID NEWBIE AVATAR? FUCK NO, YOU'RE GETTING A PENTAR

SKILCRAFT KREW Reppin' Quality Blind Made Products

Absurd Alhazred posted:

OP, have you considered that the pattern is not that foreign developers are bad, but that you start out by giving them the low-hanging fruit, and with time what you give them is harder and harder to implement? We've had similar issues in house where we have a working prototype very early, but then with time elaborations that seem less and less significant take longer and longer. And yeah, the more specialized the problem, the more research is needed to do the later parts.

That seems more likely to me than a company based in the Netherlands and contracting out to African developers and a company based in Ukraine both being bad in ways that do not have to do with the tasks you give them.

Yeah, I think I started the thread out of frustration instead of thinking about it much.

We've made so many mistakes in this process and it's been a great learning experience.

Mega Comrade
Apr 22, 2004

Listen buddy, we all got problems!


We recently cut ties with our offshore development (Pakastan) and hired a bunch of in-house development to replace them. While it was always easy to slag off their developers as bad after some thought I feel that was mostly unfair, some of the developers were actually pretty talented and you could see this in the various ingenious hacks they came up with to, but the problem was the use of hacks in the first place. The culture with this company was 'get the job done by the timeline no matter what' , its a culture that seems very prevalent with these outsourcing companies and it just leads to unmanageable technical debt.

Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at Sep 20, 2018 around 13:14

Shy
Mar 20, 2010



Yes cheap companies do work poorly.

Lumpy
Apr 26, 2002

La! La! La! Laaaa!



College Slice

Shy posted:

Yes cheap companies do work poorly.

You can have it done fast, cheap, or well. Pick two.

xtal
Jan 9, 2011



This thread is so "Developer" I can imagine Steve Ballmer shouting it

Dirty Beluga
Apr 17, 2007

Buy the ticket, take the ride


Fun Shoe

we paid an offshore team to write a some financial software that involved taking in various data feeds from large banks. The system worked great until one day it didnt so we called up and they told us that the guy drowned and and was a bad employee because he had been doing the work manually never wrote the software.

We still work with them, the backend is a nightmare of hacks but it works as long as no body else on the team drowns.

wooger
Apr 16, 2005

YOU RESENT?

Dirty Beluga posted:

we paid an offshore team to write a some financial software that involved taking in various data feeds from large banks. The system worked great until one day it didnt so we called up and they told us that the guy drowned and and was a bad employee because he had been doing the work manually never wrote the software.

We still work with them, the backend is a nightmare of hacks but it works as long as no body else on the team drowns.

Are there not regulations about financial software that prevent outsourcing it to randoms?

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MrMoo
Sep 14, 2000



If anything it is easier, although I'm going through one gigantic background check with FBI checks for one firm.

Cannot work for the Fed but you can still work on a project that someone else takes to them.

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