Religionthread: Mass at 5am so we can have breakfast earlier

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Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

I just want to chime in - I may be pagan as all hell (Wiccan initiate woop woop), but this discussion is super neat and interesting, and I appreciate how seriously you're all taking this.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2018 13:09

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 08:24

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Tias posted:

Welcome pagan bro Norse heathen/animist here, I live in Denmark and have been following the old powers and trained as a shaman for the last 3-4 years, though I've always been a seeking agnostic. How's being a wiccan working out for you, and how did you become one?

Oh, it works out fairly well, I think, I've been doing it since 2001 and am now a member of a Tradition that runs public classes and rituals and things, in which I am one of the initiated priesthood. It's not where I thought I'd end up when I started doing all this but I'm happy with where I've landed. I hugely disagree with the fashion in which a lot of BTW covens are run and I'm very happy my Tradition (Odyssean) runs public temples to let people dip a toe into the water, as it were. Not all people are drawn to being clergy and that is super ok! So, uh, if people have questions about that, feel free to ask.

I'm super happy to see that you've been working on running the Nazis out of your local community, they've become a massive problem and I am always super leery of Norse folk and have to assume they're racist fascists until proven otherwise. Maybe someday that will change.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2018 17:49

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Tias posted:

Oh word, Odyssean? Do you have mediterranean ancestry or is it just one of those eclectic things?

I'm sad that you think so, but if you're in the US I can't fault you for thinking so. Your largest asatru group is, well, nazitru and couldn't read a saga to save their lives. Fortunately the good folk are in the majority in many areas still, also in the US. Check out Huginn's Heathen Hof or Heathens United Against Fascism if you want to learn more.

Odyssean is the name of the Tradition, much like there's the Gardnerian or Alexandrian Traditions.

Naw, I'm in Canada, we get tragic white trash Sons of Odin and such around here at Pagan Pride Day. Usually loudly making fun of them for being fabulous examples of the inherent superiority of the white race will make them go away.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2018 18:33

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

HEY GUNS posted:

it's from the early 20th century but they used to believe it was the reconstruction of an ancient religion. this was bad anthropology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardnerian_Wicca

if you're interested in the actual tradition of western esotericism, which was A Thing from the classical period until the seventeenth century, that's one thing (although there's the question of whether or not it's moral).

although i do not begrudge Wiccans if they're good people, this isn't that.

edit: mad haimish is saying he is a member of this group.

Anyone seriously claiming to be a member of a Murray-style witch-cult is deluded, lying, or both. The nails have been driven into that coffin for decades at this point, people need to let it go. Fortunately we are, by and large, more accepting of actual history these days.

# ¿ Nov 14, 2018 13:12

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Holding a religious office tends to set you apart in the view of the congregation, a lot of the time.

I've had some people who come out to ritual set me on a bit of a pedestal because I'm one of the priesthood, but hell, if I'm not running the ritual I'm just a regular dude who's there to participate. Having an amber necklace and red cord doesn't somehow make me 'better' than Joe Wiccan who has no interest in becoming priesthood.

# ¿ Nov 14, 2018 23:08

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Tias posted:

So the parliament of world religions was just held in Toronto, and I'm happy to say Heathens Against Hate (of which my blót guild is a signatory) came and held a baller lecture on inclusive heathenry!

This lady knows what's up:

That's Diane Paxton! I met her at Sirius Rising in 2015 and she seemed pretty rad.

I was at the Parliament as a performer in the Egyptian ritual play and it was a hella good time.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2018 19:23

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

HEY GUNS posted:

hegel grimoire trip report number 3: the lesser key of solomon.

this is very influential. crowley read it, the chaos magicians from the 70s read it (and turned it into BULLSHIT, but i digress ), and what nobody says is that it teaches you how to summon infernal spirits (usually evil), spirits of the air (good or evil), and angels of the planets, hours, and zodiac (good)...who will teach you the kinds of things you learn in college. Astronomy, liberal arts, rhetoric, ethics, medicine, law.

is this just the world's most arduous correspondence course? online courses exist now! you do not have to summon a spirit with the body of a wolf, the wings of a griffin, the tail of a snake, and the head of a human being, who speaks one third truth and two thirds lies, to appear within your magic circle and then teach you engineering!

http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/lemegeton.htm#contents

also it's here that sigils start being sigils of the spirit you're summoning, rather than a symbol of God that you show to the spirit you're summoning in order to intimidate it.

edit: you can also summon your guardian angel into a crystal, so you can look at it

I know a guy who's doing a re-work of Ars Notoria with the actual artwork, which is pretty amazing.

All the goetes I know are pretty hardcore and here I am just having done two experiments with Drawing Spirits Into Crystals. Sachiel is a total bro, yo.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2018 19:25

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

HEY GUNS posted:

so what's it for, for you? so you can stare at them?

Generally speaking, with conjurations you're either asking them to give you information or do favours of some sort for you.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2018 23:21

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

ThePopeOfFun posted:

I’m interested in hearing more about what you mean by hardcore. From my perspective, which is extremely limited, drawing spirits seems pretty hardcore. If you’re not supposed to tell, no worries.

My favorite part of this thread is hearing from so many different spiritualities. Feels like travel.

Oh, they just go whole hog into it. Brazen vessel, belt of lionskin, all the lamens and stuff, Strong Opinions on Mathers VS. Peterson VS. Skinner, the whole thing. It's very cool and impressive and honestly I think it's just way too much work.

This isn't something I can't talk about because it's secret, I don't think I should talk as though I'm an expert because it's just not something I do. Goetia is hard work and I'm lazy. Wicca is way more my speed. There's much less ritual fasting and abstinence, most of the time.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2018 20:12

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

HEY GUNS posted:

some of it's cool poetry though, psalms, isaiah, the dry bones part of ezekiel, etc

Controversial opinion: Psalms is terrible, Song of Solomon, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes are where it's at. Ezekiel is the best of the OT prophets, Jeremiah can go piss up a rope.

I've read through the Bible twice and I feel that Matthew is the better of the Gospels, but I'm a filthy pagan so what the hell do I know, really?

# ¿ Dec 2, 2018 01:34

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Tias posted:

I am distraught that Religionthread: the only dude itt who has read all of origen took a sacred vow to Mary to get off social media so we can't get the verdict on whether he thought we will become empyrean doughnut holes when we die is too long a title, because it is pure

E:

Ludicrous hats are a thread uniter, but I'm not sure about the silk robes. How are you all about heavy furs?

I have felt for years that Wicca needs better hats. I am entitled to wear an unadorned circlet if I'm running ritual but that really doesn't cut it!

I do have a 'for special' robe of white raw silk but that's really not what people think of when they think of silk. Duponier moire silk though, hrrrrrrg.

# ¿ Dec 4, 2018 20:48

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

I may be a filthy pagan, but 'O Holy Night' is the good poo poo. "Long lay the world in sin and darkness pining until the day when the soul felt its worth / A thrill of hope, the weary world rejoices, for yonder breaks a new and glorious dawn"? It's good poo poo.

Also an entire house full of folk dancers belting out 'Gaudete' is a thing that cannot be described, only experienced.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2018 22:29

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Tias posted:

Well, I've finally gone and done it.

Said yes to lead a blót, that is! We're having our traditional mid winter pork and mead party the second of february, and there's going to be sacrifice to the powers and gods beforehand. Since the council of elders wanted new folks to do it, I was pulled from the metaphorical hat.

I'd say I'm stoked to become an actual heathen liturgical leader, but I'm also really really worried I'll gently caress up

Running ritual is cool and good and you should absolutely do that thing.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2019 19:13

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

WerrWaaa posted:

The sacristy at work is full of incense smoke and it smell like salvation

ALL INCENSE ALL THE TIME. If the ritual space doesn't look like the interior of a car in a Cheech and Chong movie when the ritual is done then you need to use more incense.

For all I know this is horrible cultural appropriation, and I rather doubt it, but more often than not I use church incense instead of stuff I make myself for rituals. I may be a silly pagan but good Gods, some of that church incense is absolutely sublime and you can't get some fragrances in any other way.

Monastery's Damascus Rose smells exactly like dried rose petals when it burns, which is definitely not the scent you get when burning dried rose petals. It's fantastic.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2019 19:52

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

zonohedron posted:

Hey, we borrowed some religious trappings from y'all in the past, it's only right that you might borrow nice incense or even a pretty thurible or something. (I imagine really pretty thuribles are super-expensive.)

Really pretty church thuribles are very expensive, I know this because I bought one. It is the most expensive ritual item I own, at $170CAD, (quite cheap, really) and is 2kg of solid brass. It'll last forever, won't suffer from badly-attached chains falling off mid-use (that was a fun time) and if need be I could club someone to death with it.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2019 20:14

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

zonohedron posted:

It's more like - "this particular change in the sky means a king has been born to the Jews, that's cool since, you know, the Romans and all" and then the star appeared to lead them there once they set out on their trip, I think? It's important that they were astrologers because that was their day job and that was where they saw the birth announcement - that, and knowing where and when this new king was born might be useful information later. "Dear King, please don't go to war in the summer of this year, the stars aren't right for that", that kind of thing.

This would have been their night job, surely?

:thejoke:

# ¿ Jan 12, 2019 21:21

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Speaking as a member of pagan clergy, I would assume that a pagan liturgical calendar on other planets would align with the astronomical phenomena on those planets. If we were to colonize Mars then the Martian pagans would observe their winter solstice on the Martian winter solstice. It's considered important to pay attention to seasonal things in your own environment, so southern hemisphere Wiccans have a ritual Calendar that's out of sync with northern hemisphere ones.

If lunar observances are included as well (because not all pagans do that) it might be interesting for planets with multiple moons. I know we're sort of lucky here on Earth to have one so visible but I'm not sure how visible Phobos and Deimos are from the surface of Mars.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2019 22:58

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Pershing posted:

I love your new Cyberpunk setting and I'm eager to back your Kickstarter.

Heck, same.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2019 05:28

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Tias posted:

Eurghh that's.. kinda dicey.

We have millenia of stories about our moon and what she does, which is how pagans relate to her they way they do. Our earth is alive, has a soul, as has the trillions of creatures, rocks and plants that inhabit her. Any observances on a foreign planet would be born out of learning it's own soul and that of it's inhabitants, I can't see it being copied from earthly phenomena.

I mean, it's all hypothetical at this point but I feel it would be slightly more reasonable to observe the cycles of the planet you're on rather than the planet you're not. What has a full moon as seen on Earth to do with someone living in an asteroid colony? I doubt that these questions will be answered in our lifetimes and the tricky part is that most pagan groups are non-heirarchical and those that are wield no authority outside of those groups. It's entirely possible I'm full of poo poo, this is all literally up in the air at this point. Clearly we need to start encouraging pagan astronauts so we can figure this out!

Hell, what happens if pagans start living on the regular Earth moon? (aside from sell moon dust at a horrific mark-up to terrestrial pagans, of course)

# ¿ Feb 7, 2019 20:01

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

pidan posted:

I feel like the nature religion type pagans will have a hard time in space colonies, because for the first 1000 years their environment would be 100% man-made. The non human nature surrounding them would mostly be a terrible threat that needs to be kept out at all costs.

But it might be a really cool religion tho

I dunno, I feel that modern pagan religions shouldn't act as though the man-made world around them is somehow inferior. Ancient pagans were often very, very urban. Of course, some of us are more in favour of the modern world than others. If you take a pantheistic worldview then I'm not sure you should feel that modern technology is a bad thing.

I wonder if there's a weird branch of science fiction to examine here.

Shnooks posted:

I think choirs and guitars in synagogues are a nice addition, can we stop arguing about that now?

I can't abide guitars in a religious service, regardless of the type. I've been out to Wiccan rituals where there's some asshat with a guitar and just....no. It just screams 'youth pastor (not minister, not priest, very specifically pastor for some reason) trying waaaaay too hard', in a sort of

Hey, teens!
*spins chair around, sits in it backward like AC Slater*
Let's gab about God!

kind of way. Flutes, trumpets, a piano, a fiddle, drums, the human voice, bells, literally anything else, just not a godsbedamned guitar.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2019 02:08

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Pipe organs are amazing and their use in liturgical or secular music is a glorious thing.

I'm glad to hear that it's not just the Wiccans I circle with who are terrible at singing! Some of our songs and chants are gorgeous but we friggin' butcher them. I know I'm tone-deaf but at least I know the drat words and timing.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2019 04:49

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

The proper question would be 'toilet paper: hanging under or hanging over? "

# ¿ Feb 13, 2019 22:32

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Yes, but unlike the Romans these people would know exactly what they're doing.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2019 12:29

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

HEY GUNS posted:

They vary from people whose beliefs are more or less orthodox--they have apostolic succession through a defector Metropolitan and the church is trying to reunify with them, for example I know of a parish in Erie Penn that is them--to people who think that if you don't believe in a magic city beneath a lake you're going to hell.

Please elaborate.

# ¿ Feb 19, 2019 19:36

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

HopperUK posted:

Oh sup grass allergy sufferer! This time of year is the worst.

I love incense though. Lately found out that Basilica incense by Prinknash is the same smell as my childhood church. Soothing.

Why would you settle for Priknash when Monastery is right there??

I get the big cans and re-package it in small bottles to sell at pagan festivals and God drat their Sweet Balsam is glorious.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2019 22:33

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Pershing posted:

I want to just say "it's clericalism" but I hesitate because "clericalism" is one of those terms that I know in my heart but I don't have a strict definition or framework for (I'm not sure if I'm addressing what you're asking here). That being said...

quote:
Clericalism arises from an elitist and exclusivist vision of vocation, that interprets the ministry received as a power to be exercised rather than as a free and generous service to be given. This leads us to believe that we belong to a group that has all the answers and no longer needs to listen or learn
anything. Clericalism is a perversion and is the root of many evils in the Church: we must humbly ask forgiveness for this and above all create the conditions so that it is not repeated.
— Pope Francis’ Address to the Synod Fathers at Opening of Synod2018 on Young People, the Faith and Vocational Discernment

Toronto priest Fr. Thomas Rosica names and defines “clericalism” with reference to Pope Francis, who he says uses “clericalism” to mean a kind of “ecclesiastical narcissism,” as well as a “club mentality and a corrupt system of cronyism.” "

I know it in my heart because I've seen it in action. I started to write a lengthy post with examples from my experience (especially me being a therapist vs. some of the dubious crap I've heard come out of the mouths of priests re: mental health over the years) but to sum up: I work from the idea that clericalism is what happens when priests and bishops talk outside of their competence and people just accept it because they are priests or bishops.

Thank you for posting this. I'm finding Francis' statement to be very relevant to my own religious community - very non-Christian though it may be - and it's heartening to know that people of other faiths see this problem in their own faith and condemn it.

# ¿ Jun 8, 2019 04:29

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

I just got home from a hernia repair surgery and I'd appreciate any prayers / good vibes for a good recovery, if anyone is so inclined. I know I'm a pagan posting in a mostly Christian thread, but I'm gon a ask anyway!

I did my due diligence in my prayers to Isis Who is Great of Healing to guide the surgical team, and I've got a jar candle going on Her shrine now, but every little bit helps.

I have some weird religious community poo poo that I'd like to discuss in this thread in a day or two once I'm feeling better and am not loopy as all hell from the painkillers.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2019 00:33

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

CountFosco posted:

If you're interested in Isis, you should read the book "The Golden rear end" by Apuleius.

I've ready it several times in a few different translations. The best one is by Robert Graves, who actually makes the funny parts funny, but Graves was good at that kind of thing.

Read his novels but don't waste your time with 'The White Goddess', it's utter claptrap.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2019 13:45

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Thank you all for the well-wishes, I had a much better night last night and actually slept, woop woop.

I am so glad to hear that other people have the same opinion of TWG. I've considered having another to at it but I'm not sure J hate myself enough to do it. I last read it about ten years ago and maybe with older eyes it's less insane?

Praying for you, Tias, and I hope it works out.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2019 15:10

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Keromaru5 posted:

I for one am looking forward to "Which is truly Orthodox: boxers or briefs?"

Those magic Mormon underpants, obviously.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2019 01:16

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Mr Enderby posted:

https://twitter.com/dvdpeters/status/1151589614722977793

I have the same censer as this dude and that absolutely delights me.

Sadly I lack his mad thurifying skills, but I could probably pick it up if I really tried.

# ¿ Jul 18, 2019 14:17

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Tias posted:

I love the terrible vision of the seraphim in the bible. Eyes all over their body that is like lightning and flame, and covered in wings

But what about

the screaming?

# ¿ Sep 17, 2019 21:22

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Tias posted:

Where's the screaming described?

The Living Creatures around the Throne of God as described in Revelation and Ezekiel are, in addition to being strange amalgams of animals and humans that are also composed of eyes and holy formless fire, constantly screaming "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty".

There's a reason why angelic visitations are usually prefaced with the greeting 'BE NOT AFRAID'.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2019 12:15

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Night10194 posted:

The other reason is because contact with the sacred can be extremely dangerous for the profane, like when that one guy tried to catch the Ark of the Covenant and just died instantly. Even if an angel comes like a son of man they are still a being far beyond a human and seem to spark innate awe and terror. So 'be not afraid' is still a good opener when you're disguised and aren't a giant flaming wheel of eyes.

This is also a very good point.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2019 19:52

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Two very close friends of mine had a baby today! Thanks be to Isis Who is Great of Healing for a successful c-section and a healthy baby, and may She grant swift and effective healing to the mother as she recovers from the procedure.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2019 03:55

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

I worked at a Catholic school in northern Alberta for about three months and they all had these little Christian shrine things in the corner of each classroom and most of them had a smudge bowl on it in addition to what I assume were regular Catholic things.

The school was very, very white and not Native at all.

# ¿ Oct 30, 2019 12:12

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Oh yes, I'm quite aware. The cultural overlap (for want of a better term) between Wicca and a lot of New Age stuff is pretty wide a lot of the time.

This isn't even exclusive to what some call neo-Wicca, I have known some very talented initiates with excellent training and pedigree in established BTW traditions engage in what I would describe as New Age claptrap, but I am a grouchy curmudgeon.

# ¿ Oct 30, 2019 18:02

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Tias posted:

BTW? Also, try on the shamanism / red rock road milieus, the appropriation is incredible sometimes.

British Traditional Wicca / Witchcraft.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2019 00:06

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Mr Enderby posted:

Richard Dawkins sat up late into the night, writing tweets by the light of a single candle. But as the hour grew later, he became more and more unhappy. "I have so many racist tweets to write," he said. "I'll never get them all posted in time." Eventually he fell asleep in his chair.

As Richard Dawkins snored, out came the pixies. "Look at poor old Richard Dawkins" said the King of the Pixies. "He's so unhappy, because he doesn't have time to post all his opinions about Muslims. We should help him out."

The next day Richard Dawkins woke up. When he looked at his phone, he couldn't believe his eyes! He'd made a hundred tweets last night. And each one was more baffling than the last!

There came a knock at the door. In came the King of England.

"Richard Dawkins?" said the King of England. "You did so many racist tweets last night, that I'm going to make you headmaster of Oxbridge University."

"Hooray" said Richard Dawkins.

# ¿ Nov 9, 2019 16:02

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 08:24

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Tias posted:

For all my mad hamishes in here

Oh my God.

# ¿ Nov 14, 2019 18:46

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