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CountFosco posted:You just posted a visual depiction of the Father. That's anathema. If it was good enough for Michelangelo, it's good enough for me. Or, for that, matter, good enough for Zurab Tsereteli 
Epicurius fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Aug 19, 2018 |
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Aug 19, 2018 05:28
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CountFosco posted:Yeah, I'm aware of that; it is the shame of orthodoxy. I thought the shame of Orthodoxy is how Orthodox leadership tends to be complicit in supporting oppressive state structures of which they have become a part, like the way the Russian Orthodox Church stirred up antisemitism and threw themselves 100% behind the Romanovs in Tsarist Russia, even when it became clear that there needed to be serious reforms, or how, during the Soviet Union, they agreed themselves to back the Soviet state in exchange for ending repression against Orthodoxy, or how now, the Russian Orthodox leadership has gotten in bed with Putin, or how the Serbian Patriarch supported Serbian militias in Bosnia in the Yugoslav Wars.
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Aug 19, 2018 18:27
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CountFosco posted:Nope, it's the visual depiction of the father, as this is a theological lie. All of the things that you've described are painting the Russian church in rather broad strokes. Further, you have to remember that Peter the Great dissolved the patriarchate of Moscow and leashed the church leadership directly to his will, under the influence, I might add, of western European "reformers", mainly Dutch, under his plan to "modernize" Russia. So to clarify, because I don't want to misinterpret you here, it's a morally worse thing to do to draw a picture of God than to lead a pogrom?
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Aug 20, 2018 00:05
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Keromaru5 posted:I may have also mentioned the time my parents went to a shrine in Alabama I think is associated somehow with Medjugorje, and it creeped them right out. They're the creepy cult guys who are fighting with the Bishop and EWTN, right?
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Aug 24, 2018 20:06
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Cythereal posted:Mount Celestia has always felt inspired by Christianity to me. It's pretty much straight out of Dante's Paradiso.
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Aug 26, 2018 01:12
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CountFosco posted:Maybe this time we can get an Asian pope. That'd be cool. Catholicos-Patriarch Agagianian supposedly almost was elected Pope in 1963.
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Aug 26, 2018 04:45
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Here's the thing. I don't disagree with you about John McCain, for the most part. He certainly supported a lot of things I find bad and opposed thing I find good. He also did a bunch of stuff in his personal life I find troubling. But I don't really know that this thread is the best place to debate McCain's legacy or to sing the "I'll Be Glad When You're Dead, You Rascal You" song. There are probably better places for that, even better places for that on the forum. I mean, head over to CSPAM. They're throwing a party, pretty much. I think all you can really say here is that however we feel about Senator McCain, our judgement doesn't matter very much to him anymore, and if there is a soul or an afterlife, that would be what's concerning him now, and while there's a long tradition of putting your enemies in hell (as was talked about earlier here, Dante did it in Inferno, and it's a classic of Italian literature), I don't know how much good doing so in this thread does.
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Aug 27, 2018 13:53
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I kind of like Paul's teachings better than I like Jesus's. You read the Pauline letters, and you think, "Ok, I know what you want me to do....don't be promiscuous, don't gossip, work hard, take care of each other, don't argue, help people in need, settle disputes amongst yourself without bringing the law into it, love one another, and stuff like that. And, ok, some of it is embarrassingly first century Hellenistic Greek, like "women shouldn't speak in public" and "The man is the head of the family and his wife needs to obey him", and "While you probably should set your slave free if he's also a believer, eh, he's your slave, so it's your business, but don't beat him too severely", and that sort of thing. But all in all, I get it. You could probably live reasonably happily in a community that does that stuff, and I could see myself living that way. With Jesus, though, it's all "If somebody hits you, let him hit you again" and "Sell everything you have and come follow me" and "the world is coming to an end" and cursing fig trees and stories about shepherds and a guy with a crappy son who he treats great and a loyal son who he treats like crap, and saying that if you believe in God you can move mountains around and stop storms and heal sick people,, and you're like, "Look, Jesus, this is great, but do you have any actual practical advice about how I can live that doesn't leave me an itinerant faith healer who gets beaten up a lot and gets unreasonably mad at orchards?" And I know it sounds like I'm being flippant or disrespectful here, but I'm not trying to be. I get that if you're a Christian who thinks that Jesus is God then you pretty much have to figure everything he says is wise and of great meaning, but for a non-Christian, the Jesus of the Gospels is pretty opaque and it's not really a guide to practical living.
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Aug 27, 2018 23:32
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docbeard posted:For me, "Love one another" pretty much sums it up. And I know that's equally flippant, but also there's a story (who knows how true, and who cares) about an elderly Apostle John, who was known for just repeating that over and over, and when asked he'd always say "If you manage to get that right, there's nothing else really necessary". Except, I don't know how you build a society or a community around "love one another". I don't know. I don't want to make a big thing about this. Everybody has the right to belive what they want, after all, and if you can organize society around loving each other, more power to you.
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Aug 28, 2018 02:56
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Lutha Mahtin posted:. this was a major reason why slavery was abolished You realize, of course, that in the United States, at least, slavery was abolished by the Civil War. The love that Christians had for their neighbors didn't stop them from enslaving their neighbors in the first place, nor from slaughtering their neighbors over questions of secession and slavery.
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Aug 28, 2018 21:57
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Lutha Mahtin posted:maybe you're not familiar but it is a true fact that the abolition movement was very much intertwined with churches and religious people. saying "oh but slave owners quoted the Bible too" does not detract from this I'm very familiar, trust me. Ibe read and studied the abolitionists. I don't disagree that many people's abolitionism was motivated by their religious beliefs and feelings. But that also doesn't detract from the fact that "slave owners quoted the bible too". It was Christians who enslaved people and Christians who fought to make them free (and Christians who were enslaved). As much as Christianity could be used as a voice for liberation, it could be used for repression too.
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Aug 28, 2018 22:24
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The Phlegmatist posted:the lord's believers did nothing wrong In SMAC? They didn't really. Miriam and Lal are really the only two faction leaders not to embrace full transhumanist dehumanizing horror.
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Aug 29, 2018 20:36
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P-Mack posted:Miriam gets a bad rap because her AI in-game was such a dick. Super aggressive, IIRC?
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Aug 29, 2018 20:53
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About, I don't know, 15 years ago? Even earlier? Somebody, i think an actual Lutheran pastor, wrote a text adventure where you played a Lutheran pastor. You got to do things like try to figure out a hospital's corridors so you could visit a sick parishoner, pick up your wife's dry cleaning, chair a meeting of the parish council, review fliers the youth group made to promote their event, try to find some candles you could swear were in the storage room, write your sermon, lose the game because you decided instead of writing the sermon you'd play just one game of Tetris. It might not be the most exciting game, I remember when I was playing it, I felt horribly busy and stressed for time as I'd try and inevitably fail to get everything done in the day I tried to do.
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Sep 1, 2018 15:14
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Maybe for CK2, but for some obstinate reason Paradox absolutely refuses to make playable theocracies, and this upcoming DLC (which is heavily religion-themed, but still no dice) is supposed to be the last one. CK2 is a dynasty simulator, really, where you play as the leader of a family throughout the game, and playing as a theocracy, which has its own succession laws that aren't family based, doesn't really work well with the rest of that.
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Sep 1, 2018 17:57
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Lutha Mahtin posted:this sounds amazing. do you remember the name or where you came across it? It's called Pastoral Pitfalls, and you can actually play it here: https://archive.org/details/agt_pp20 You can also find it in the Interactive Fiction Archives, but it's like 20 years old, so you'd have to run an emulator to get it to run.
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Sep 5, 2018 01:44
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Cythereal posted:I don't understand why you find that offensive but I'm sorry that I did accidentally offend you. Because, as far as Catholicism is concerned, God does sometimes "fuss a slightly different word choice". Invalidity of form can make a sacrament invalid (although the difference Thirteen Orphans' priest said wouldn't). Some changes to the wording can make it illicit, and others invalid.
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Sep 10, 2018 04:37
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Spacewolf posted:(We could have terrifying fights about things like the Holy Fire ritual in Orthodoxy, but I don't think that'd be productive, does anyone else?) I mean, maybe? I guess it comes down to the question, "what is magic"? Are Roman curse tablets magic?
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Sep 10, 2018 14:34
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Orff's "O, Fortuna" gets used a lot in horror for some reason.
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Sep 12, 2018 11:46
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HopperUK posted:It's kind of discordant I guess? Discordant and Latin. So it's perfect background music for the birth of the Antichrist or something like that.
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Sep 12, 2018 14:48
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I like their "We're approved by a bishop, but we can't tell you which bishop." It also seems to be associated with the increasingly bizzare Fr. Chad Ripperger?
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Sep 13, 2018 02:21
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HEY GUNS posted:if the orthodox are right, he's slowly been driving himself insane There's this King of the Hill line that sort of fits: Dale Gribble posted:Witchard? Jimmy Witchard? You told Bobby to listen to Jimmy Witchard? He was in my gun club. People say he fried his brain one day, just staring at the sun. Of course, he couldn't have been too smart to do that in the first place. . .Kind of a chicken-egg thing. But some wisdom from Fr. Chad about "Generational spirits" quote:“It can also be over races,” maintains the exorcist. “Every single race has one. If you look at the Native American Indians, very often they are beset by a spirit passed on by the Native American spirituality.” With Hispanics, he says, there may be an Aztec or Mayan ancestry steeped in occultism or the effects of practices such as Santeria. Pagan practices in India and deep Africa pose special issues, he notes. quote:Father Ripperger has observed that spirits of Freeemasony are often associated in families with respiratory illnesses Father Chad was a member of the FSSP (They were the group that split off of the SSPX after Lefebvre did his consecrations), until he left them and founded his own group, the Dolorians (Society of the Most Sorrowful Mother), which is all about the exorcisms. They were in the diocese of Tulsa for a while, until the new Bishop came along and kicked them out for a variety of reasons (Latin mass, all the exorcism stuff, Dolorian muttering about Bergoglioism), and they wound up in Denver. Epicurius fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Sep 13, 2018 |
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Sep 13, 2018 03:21
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Deteriorata posted:They wouldn't have had to be literal slaves for the story to work. Just a disrespected lower caste that wasn't free to come and go. Pharaoh and the "let my people go!" confrontation depends only on them not being free to leave, not that they were individually owned by someone else. Sure, except a lot of the evidence suggests that the Exodus didn't happen at all, and that the Israelites were an indigenous Canaanite kingdom. The story was made up because "We conquered this land with the help of the gods" was a more legitimate basis for rule than "We've just always been here."
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Sep 16, 2018 18:35
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Deteriorata posted:The evidence is uncertain, as it's not at all clear exactly what evidence one would expect to see if a small band of settlers from Egypt showed up unannounced at the start of the Iron Age. "We don't know" is a perfectly valid scientific option, but what the book of Numbers and Joshua describes is over a million people (Numbers gives about 600,000 adult men) coming into Canaan, defeating the land's armies, sacking its cities, and exterminating and enslaving its inhabitants. If that were to happen, you'd expect to find discontinuity in the archeological record. But you don't. The physical culture seems to be the same, the religion seems to be the same, the language seems to be the same. I mean, before the Exodus happened, you have the Canaanites making Canaanite pottery, worshiping Baal-Hadad, and writing proto-Hebrew. After the Exodus happened, you have the Israelites making Canaanite pottery, worshiping Baal-Hadad and writing proto-Hebrew. So lets just say that we have no evidence of the Exodus happening other than writings made at least 500 years after it supposedly occurred?
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Sep 16, 2018 19:18
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Maybe they meant the mass resignation offer was unprecedented?
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Sep 17, 2018 12:16
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I can tell you that Doomstadt has at least two churches... the Church of St. Peter and the Church of St. Blaise.
Epicurius fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Sep 17, 2018 |
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Sep 17, 2018 19:57
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Caufman posted:Yikes. Why do you think he hated it? There is a lot more personal experience discussion than you normally see in an academic paper, from my experience of academic papers, at least.
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Sep 20, 2018 04:03
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Thirteen Orphans posted:You see that a lot in more modern theological writings, Knitter himself writes in that style. Fair enough. I'm 20 years out of anything approaching academia, and most of the papers I tended to read and write dealt with the formation of national identity in the 19th/20th century, It doesn't lend itself to that kind of writing.
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Sep 20, 2018 04:10
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It's the church that pays them, isn't it? If priests and ministers are underpaid, it's not that "society " does not view them. It's that their church and congregation doesn't value them.
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Sep 25, 2018 22:46
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Lutha Mahtin posted:are you seriously making an Ayn Rand argument to explain why a poor parish can't afford to pay their pastor very much No. Obviously poor parishes don't pay their pastors much because they don't have much money. But it's my understanding that even in churches in rich areas, religious leaders don't tend to take home much in the way of salary. Putting aside a small number of megachurch, prosperity gospel pastors, who make an awful lot, clergy tend not to be very well paid. Because I have it easy to hand, the base salary for a Catholic priest in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati is $30,900 a year. http://www.catholiccincinnati.org/ministries-offices/human-resources-office/salaries/ The median salary of an MA in Cincinnati is $51,959 The guidelines for the ECLA Minneapolis Area Synod recommends a base salary+housing allowance for beginning pastors of $59,790. The median salary of somebody with an MA in the Minneapolis area is $63,284. The guidelines for the ECLA Nebraska synod recommends a base salary of $34,088 and a housing allowance of $10,226. Median salary for an MA in Nebraska is 55,054. Keep in mind, the numbers I'm citing aren't based on parish wealth. This isn't the matter of a poor church not being able to pay their pastor a higher salary because they don't have the money. This is the Catholic Church hierarchy and the ECLA hierarchy saying what they recommend a pastor should be paid. So you can't just say "Why does society not think pastors should be paid more" without also saying "Why do the Catholic Church and ECLA not think pastors should be paid more."
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Sep 26, 2018 00:03
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Lutha Mahtin posted:yeah i'm still drafting my huge dunk post on epicurius, but i need to chime in and say that liquid's and senju's recent posts about church governance and finances are just bizarre in terms of their ignorance, regarding how these organizations actually exist, and how they are run You don't need to actually dunk on me. Write me off as an ignorant idiot if you want. It doesn't bother me.
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Sep 26, 2018 04:18
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HEY GUNS posted:also to the catholics who keep appropriating the names of byzantine emperors to talk about how much you want someone to persecute us as heretics, i see you What if they go by "Julianus"?
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Sep 30, 2018 18:23
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HEY GUNS posted:dont doxx me <shakes his fist> Thou hast conquered, Hey Guns!
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Sep 30, 2018 19:03
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Pershing posted:Ok, what heresy is this? Pelagianism. Also, best wishes to you tomorrow.
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Oct 1, 2018 20:52
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HEY GUNS posted:
I'm not a canon lawyer, but it would raise the following questions in my head: 1. Is "wanting to convert to Orthodoxy" from a non Christian religion a mortal sin? (It's obvious in this scenario the person isnt converting from Catholicism because otherwise the baptism would be invalid) It isn't schism, because the person was never in communion with the church to begin with, and the person either didnt recognize the truth of the Catholic Church or how it differs from Orthodoxy, in which case, the defense of ignorance applies, or the person recognized the truth of the Catholic Church, and allowed themselves to be baptized Orthodox because there was no other way he could get baptized, in which case you could probably make some necessity argument. 2. Assuming, though, the convert converts to Orthodoxy with full knowledge that the Catholic Church is the only valid authority and that the Orthodox Church is wrong when they differ, and assuming hes able, should they so wish it, to have a Catholic baptism, and therefore their conversion is done solely as an act of rebellion. that would be a sin. Now the baptism wipes away that sin, but if the person continues in that attitude for a moment more, they continue in their sin, and baptism forgive future sins. Of course, we can never say with certainty that anyone is going to hell, because God is infinite in mercy and all, but I'd think that's how I'd argue it.
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Oct 3, 2018 20:03
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HEY GUNS posted:my question is: how long after the baptism does this person remain alive? is thinking going on during this period? we're not asking if orthodox baptisms are valid. we're asking if someone is baptized orthodox and then immediately (???) dies, what is the state of their soul? Immediately, the individual would be in a state of grace.
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Oct 3, 2018 20:38
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StashAugustine posted:Just got out of a Catholic church with a stained glass window of saint Florence nightingale Her father was CoE and her mother was a Unitarian, and she was a fairly univeralist CoE.
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Oct 7, 2018 17:29
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Worthleast posted:You can have all the Chesterton look alikes. We’ll take the Gandalfs. As a bespectacled walrus, I object to the proposal.
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Oct 9, 2018 16:47
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The problem is that "Can God make a square circle" is an incoherent question. It doesn't seem incoherent, because, in isolation, all the words make sense. But a "square circle" isnt a thing, definitionally." Likewise, with the rock so heavy question, you're asking, "Can an omnipotent being not be able to do something?"
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Oct 15, 2018 18:53
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Gaius Marius posted:That's sort of what I'm getting at though. Of course it's incoherent, it's impossible. But my idea is that god could still do it. I'd argue the opposite. God can't do it, because it's not an actual thing. Something slower than the speed of light going faster than the speed of light is physically impossible...as we understand the laws of physics, something slower than the speed of light cant go faster than it. Somebody coming back from the dead is impossible biologically. Entropty goes one way. Once the body breaks down, you cant put it back together. Those things, though, can be done by an omnipotent being. A square circle is different than the above examples. A square circle isn't just impossible. The concept is incoherent, because "square" and "circle", as defined in Euclidian geometry, are mutually exclusive concepts, and therefore, it's not even a thing.
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Oct 15, 2018 22:02
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