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Cardboard Fox posted:Instead, we got Star Citizen. no we didn’t
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Sep 14, 2020 08:15
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Well having huge sandbox mmos based on griefing and warfare isn't the way of the future, because nobody wants to lose What you get as far as emergent gameplay goes is places like secondlife where everyone can be whoever they want and nobody ever loses
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Sep 14, 2020 09:03
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huge sandbox pvp sim mmo except you win 80% of the fights because they're just bots disguised as players, hide it by not letting the players see enemies names see how long it takes people to realize they're playing goat mmorpg simulator
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Sep 14, 2020 09:57
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Recent more actiony multiplayer games (super recent examples would be Spellbreak) have been doing this and people catch on pretty fast.
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Sep 14, 2020 11:11
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LLSix posted:Agreed. As several other posters have pointed out, what’s even the point of having a multiplayer game if you’re going to use another interface to talk? FFXIV RP seems to use a lot of in game emotes which means everything happens “in person.” Since so much of the interaction is visual and in game, Discord is mostly used to let people know when and where RP events are taking place. It’s an interesting way to keep people invested in the game, but between that and most RP taking place in private instances, the community is super fragmented. What I really want is just for my mobile device and game client to have access to the same chat channels. WoW did this with their app having access to guild chat once upon a time but I don’t know if they still do. FFXIV lets you whisper people who are on your friends list or in linkshells with you but it throws them all in one enormous alphabetized list with no context and doesn’t allow access to the actual associated chat channels of FCs or linkshells. I guess this ultimately is equivalent to what was mentioned in other posts about discord integration into the game, but it’s important to me that a) a third party doesn’t own the protocol/servers, especially not a single third party across many games, and b) the game client has all the same access as the apps, if not more. Dross fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Sep 14, 2020 |
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Sep 14, 2020 11:57
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Cardboard Fox posted:Instead, we got Star Citizen. i loving wish lmfao blatman posted:huge sandbox pvp sim mmo except you win 80% of the fights because they're just bots disguised as players, hide it by not letting the players see enemies names this would be fun, but as with all computer things, AI has quirks you quickly notice and exploit to farm them, and different players won't, so it's pretty obvious which is which
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Sep 14, 2020 12:46
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Mr. Pickles posted:Well having huge sandbox mmos based on griefing and warfare isn't the way of the future, because nobody wants to lose What do you guys want to see in the next gen MMO? I must be weird to want these massive universe sims where you can do everything, because where else do MMOs go? Static dungeons and raids have been done to death. We're never getting exploration as core gameplay anymore because everything will be found on a datamined website before beta finishes. Full loot PvP has too much toxicity to bring a large portion of the playerbase to your game. Unless AI unlocks some new emergent gameplay in the next decade, I just can't see an MMO coming out with a unique premise that we can't already get with existing singleplayer and multiplayer games.
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Sep 14, 2020 14:21
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As people have stated before, sandbox games are the new MMOs. Real MMOs can't charge monthly fees anymore, so they've figured out how to exploit your wallet in all the least fun ways. Not only that but most actual MMOs fail because the cost of development is so loving high.
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Sep 14, 2020 15:09
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Not kidding that if someone dumped a WoW level of budget into a game that has the same mechanics as Runescape it would sell gangbusters. Crafting economy, voluntary full loot pvp, etc etc while having a very casual feel. I just don't know if poopsock mmos really have a place in the world anymore. With so many games vying for attention and the average age of players trending upwards demanding 5 hrs/day every day to stay competitve without signing your life away to a massive guild is just not viable. Debatably the modern full loot pvp mmo is just Battle Royale games.
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Sep 14, 2020 15:39
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Kortel posted:Based, but I'd like something as in depth as Muds can get. They can get very involved and many can be completely combat less if you choose to go that route. VR might help get to that point with hand manipulation becoming a thing. There's always Eve-Online, even if you don't want to do mining or production, there are roles that help combat roles, with stealth and recon ships, or flying a carrier and transporting other players.
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Sep 14, 2020 16:58
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I said come in! posted:There's always Eve-Online, even if you don't want to do mining or production, there are roles that help combat roles, with stealth and recon ships, or flying a carrier and transporting other players. Did Eve for a few years! Just couldn't really get in to it? I basically was just upgrading my skills and minning. All the time. Never joined GoonSwarm though, wasn't really interested in the big ol' fights.
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Sep 15, 2020 04:53
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The Star Citizen guy did a big effort post about the game's state where he essentially says "yeah the game is taking longer than I expected, but I won't be compromising my original vision no matter how long it takes!"
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Sep 15, 2020 06:59
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I too would say "I will not compromise my artistic integrity" if I wanted to keep getting croudfunding for vaporware forever
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Sep 15, 2020 07:03
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If they ever launched that game, the money would dry up and nobody would care anymore. He has every reason you can think of to never release that game, ESPECIALLY the financial one. Like every MMO, really, the best part is the shared delusion with other people thinking it will be good. But every MMO ultimately disappoints you and deserves to be burnt down to the ground. This is why FFXIV is the only good MMO, they actually torched the game and destroyed it in a breathtaking fashion, only to bring it back as an infinitely better version that continues to improve and for the foreseeable future will be a reliably good video game. It’s like MMOs need to fail on some level. WoW needs to keep on pulling a cataclysm and destroy the world a couple times.
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Sep 15, 2020 07:08
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Kortel posted:Based, but I'd like something as in depth as Muds can get. They can get very involved and many can be completely combat less if you choose to go that route. Part of what allowed MUDs to be so in-depth and to have so much variety of roleplay was that creating new content for them was ridiculously fast. The resources necessary to add a flying ship to a regular MMO include a model, sound effects, textures, physics simulations, and animation. The resources necessary to add a flying ship to a MUD are the words "A ship is flying overhead here." Basically, if you want the kind of renaissance in MMOs that you're talking about you have to be ready to accept a whole lot more telling and a whole lot less showing. And that might not necessarily be a bad thing (I think it'd be badass!), but it's what the price will be.
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Sep 15, 2020 09:14
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The thing that I feel will never be recaptured in WoW and simile MMOs is the feeling of the player having an identity within the community. In the early days, you had no cross server groups or duty finder, you had no server transfers, no name changes, no instant teleporting around. What you had was your server’s community and forum. You had a reputation. If you were a troll, or a ninja looter, or an rear end in a top hat, word got out and people wouldn’t party with you. In this way the community self-policed. Conversely, if you were the guy with all the rare blacksmith or alchemy recipes, everybody knew your name. If your guild was the top guild on the server, everybody wanted to be in it, because you’d stand around in Ironforge with your glorious glowing purple weapons that no one else had, and people would run when they saw you in PVP. Everybody wanted to be that guy, and at some point it was decided that everyone should be able to be that guy, which made it meaningless to be that guy. There was also, of course, the untamed frontier feel of a game whose devs seemed to understand it as poorly as the players did. All the info about it was gathered from addons logging real player experiences and was often unreliable, not datamined 3 patches early. At launch someone on my server created a character named Admin and made it to max level before a GM got to him. There was no “you have to change your name” interface so the GM just asked him what he wanted to change it to, so he said “supermage” and the GM changed it to exactly that. He was the only character on the server with an all lowercase name.
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Sep 15, 2020 11:34
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CuddleCryptid posted:Not kidding that if someone dumped a WoW level of budget into a game that has the same mechanics as Runescape it would sell gangbusters. Crafting economy, voluntary full loot pvp, etc etc while having a very casual feel. I think a possible next step is fully automated MMOs. You get to choose the kinds of activities your character does and their spec/gear/whatever but your character(s) do all the work. Then make it work like those incremental games where if you go away things keep happening but because you're not assigning new talents and swapping in new gear you do it less efficiently until you log in again some time later. You could add instances and raids and all kinds of things other MMOs have. Expcept now you can add a shitload of grind for players to go through over time but without actually making players grind through it themselves so casuals can compete close enough with the poopsockers. Plus it's perfect for chatting poo poo with your friends while your characters do their poo poo during a raid. I could see a whole genre of idle MMOs taking off.
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Sep 15, 2020 14:02
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Isn't that just what all those mobile or mobile-style clickers have been doing?
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Sep 15, 2020 14:20
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Kortel posted:Did Eve for a few years! Just couldn't really get in to it? I basically was just upgrading my skills and minning. All the time. Never joined GoonSwarm though, wasn't really interested in the big ol' fights. I did Eve with a few irl friends, we went into a wormhole and made ISK via ratting and production. It was fun, but soon it started feeling like a second job. Then we got jumped by a major alliance and I quit Regrettably I did minimal PvP but roaming and gatecamping is so drat boring so I couldn't stick with it. All I did was go to lowsec and pewpew there Mr. Pickles fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Sep 15, 2020 |
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Sep 15, 2020 14:22
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Cardboard Fox posted:What do you guys want to see in the next gen MMO? I must be weird to want these massive universe sims where you can do everything, because where else do MMOs go? I wanna play a UO-type mmo with a gather spend improve model which will be on VR and would require me to move around while playing the game. I despise exercising but I love playing multiplayer RPG games. Please allow me to do my favorite thing while burning calories tia. PS: I would like the herding skill to be viable for my Tamer in this mmo
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Sep 15, 2020 14:27
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Mr. Pickles posted:It was fun, but soon it started feeling like a second job. That describes SWG for me. I remember coming home and immediately checking my harvester farms. One day I was like... what the gently caress am I doing? and never played again.
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Sep 15, 2020 17:51
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Dross posted:In the early days, you had no cross server groups or duty finder, you had no server transfers, no name changes, no instant teleporting around. What you had was your server’s community and forum. You had a reputation. If you were a troll, or a ninja looter, or an rear end in a top hat, word got out and people wouldn’t party with you. In this way the community self-policed. I wasn't... alive for the first batch of MMOs. I'm curious as to how or why people tolerated this - were the *only* people that played MMOs in the early days uni kids or something with tons of time? How did people tolerate 6 hour long raids, walking for an hour to a destination, no teleporting at all? Didn't they still have a day job back then? Was it because there were no other games at all, and most of the time was actually just socialising in guild chat or similar? Did one game add dungeon finder and teleporting and then everyone else was like "wow such a QOL improvement I hate walking" and refused to play anything without it again? I don't see what has changed to massively, since while players are getting older, there is a new batch of younger players fueling more MMOs like Roblox and whatnot.
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Sep 15, 2020 18:53
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punk rebel ecks posted:The Star Citizen guy did a big effort post about the game's state where he essentially says "yeah the game is taking longer than I expected, but I won't be compromising my original vision no matter how long it takes!" "If you want to encourage me or other developers to answer questions then it helps to not turn around and question people's professionalism or make sweeping statements." I like how as shareholders with a stake in this games development, they are not allowed to question anything. That is totally the sign of a stable, functional game developer that is not at all scamming people. "My biggest disappointment with modern internet discourse is that there's a significant amount of cynicism, especially in forum or reddit debates, and a portion of people assume the worst. If a feature is missing, late or buggy it's because the company or the developer lied and or / is incompetent as opposed to the fact that it just took longer and had more problems than the team thought it would when they originally set out to build it." This isn't even remotely the issue anyone has with Star Citizen. No one is even accusing CIG of this, not really anyways. The problem is that the core functions of Star Citizen still do not exist. Not one single feature or mechanic is functioning or thought out. Basic gameplay features are still not implemented or done yet, 8 years later. All Chris Roberts did in this stupid rear end rant was defend himself against the big mean internet. Doesn't address a single specific issue, or cover any of the actual legitimate major concerns with this project that raise all sorts of sirens and red flags. This guy is a master con-artist and fraud that knows exactly how to manipulate and trick people. He couldn't get away with it from Microsoft, and EA Games, but Kickstarter has been the holy grail for someone like Roberts. gently caress this guy so much. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Sep 15, 2020 |
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Sep 15, 2020 19:26
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The game should at least be in a closed beta by now.
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Sep 15, 2020 19:48
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Biowarfare posted:I wasn't... alive for the first batch of MMOs. basically the pre-WoW mindset was different. a MMO was a world you inhabited and optimization wasn't really the name of the game. most people did not raid and leveling was generally the bulk of your gameplay, which you mostly had to do in groups. the long travel times and general length of the experience was part of what made it feel more "real". if you had a job, well, that sucks but if you had 2-3 hours free you could still make progress. people on average worked somewhat less at the time, too - the last twenty years have seen a lot more people be forced to take on work above 8 hours a day to live. travel was also its own game because until you were at least mid-level, it was generally hard to travel around the world without passing through areas that could kill you. avoiding enemies was a fundamental MMO travel skill and it did a lot to spice up the otherwise-intolerable-seeming travel times. i can't think of how many times i'd end up barreling through a zone transition half-dead in FFXI with a pack of goblins or something after me. it was exciting, not frustrating, but i don't know that i'd feel the same way about it today. people hated dungeon finder at first when it emerged in WoW's second expansion. WoW had already made a lot of concessions to convenience and solo play, but fundamentally it was still more similar to the old MMOs than not. it did a lot to destroy the sense of community involved in finding groups and heightened the already-extant issue of WoW feeling like a series of theme park locations. personally i think dungeon finder fit WoW pretty well, it had already moved far away from the dynamic of everquest, FFXI, etc. so it wasn't as much of a sacrifice as it felt like at the time. wrath already took place on a pretty condensed continent with flying mounts for everybody. it really would not have been great at launch though. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Sep 15, 2020 |
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Sep 15, 2020 19:51
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Dross posted:The thing that I feel will never be recaptured in WoW and simile MMOs is the feeling of the player having an identity within the community. SWG was a helluva ride
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Sep 15, 2020 21:12
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Biowarfare posted:I'm curious as to how or why people tolerated this That's because there's a fundamental shift in the purpose of MMOs. They weren't built to be games, they were built to be cyber Narnia (or Ready Player One, whatever), a parallel world sandbox in which to hang out and be someone else. It's no coincidence since they were built by mostly MUD designers for MUD players, and MUDs had been aiming to do the same, only without graphical bells and whistles. It's probably also no coincidence that UO was built on a game series that was about going to not-Narnia alone. For a while playing a new Ultima meant hopping back to a world you grew to know by heart with your old jolly pals (and once that broke down, people hated it). In that mindset, group finders or teleport abilities are a detriment because they break immersion. You can't find your pals unless you travel to where they went or can figure out how the phases of the local moons spawn portals or have a rare magical ring of town hopping pried from the dead hands of the great Grbllbr himself. Think BotW versus Ubi open worlds. WoW was a game changer because it combined all the more gamey aspects, in particular focusing on quests and instancing, and drew a much wider audience that was actually more about playing a game, only with friends and rivals, rather than living in a virtual world. Most followed that model because more players meant more money, then it evolved into using that shared game to sell you more stuff (to the point it became the primary revenue driver instead of subscriptions), then the GaaS realization that the virtual world was not even a necessary part to the whole equation, even just a small shared per-match environment would do. Raph Koster who worked on UO and SWG has written tons of stuff on the subject of virtual worlds (the genre that includes all MUD-descended stuff, MMOs included) and is also a firmly on the virtual world side as a designer, so you may find his writings very useful to understand the original mindset. This article likely describes the paradigm shift well: https://www.raphkoster.com/2014/11/21/ten-years-of-world-of-warcraft/. Chev fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Sep 15, 2020 |
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Sep 15, 2020 22:05
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Cardboard Fox posted:What do you guys want to see in the next gen MMO? An alternative to combat that isn't a dumb, mindless grind that involves interacting with dialogue boxes 99% of the time. Fun combat is nice and I wouldn't say no, but one of the great things about the best MMOs is that you didn't have to engage in it if you didn't want to. Also a game that returns to this: Jazerus posted:basically the pre-WoW mindset was different. a MMO was a world you inhabited and optimization wasn't really the name of the game. Gear scores, group finders, unnecessary min/maxing, groups running dungeons absolutely as quickly as they can to get to the level cap quickest... all this stuff is the opposite of what I want to see in a MMO. I want to experience and explore a unique and interesting world, I don't want to take a seat on a carnival ride that's designed for someone with the attention span of a toddler. The most recent Zelda proves that there's an incredible appetite for games that break the mold and go back to their roots when those roots are strong. There are plenty of influential MMOs that studios could emulate. Also get rid of layering/instanced overworlds, and just make the world bigger to accommodate more people. kedo fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Sep 15, 2020 |
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Sep 15, 2020 22:07
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Biowarfare posted:I'm curious as to how or why people tolerated this - were the *only* people that played MMOs in the early days uni kids or something with tons of time? How did people tolerate 6 hour long raids, walking for an hour to a destination, no teleporting at all? Didn't they still have a day job back then? Was it because there were no other games at all, and most of the time was actually just socialising in guild chat or similar? Did one game add dungeon finder and teleporting and then everyone else was like "wow such a QOL improvement I hate walking" and refused to play anything without it again? I played EQ in middle school and played on and off for about three years but I only ever made it halfway to the level max and I never understood how people could do 40 person raids or camp a spawn for an entire day. I also tried most of the other big MMOs like Asheron's Call. My brother and I shared the same computer for years so even if I wanted to I couldn't have spent all weekend playing or whatever. Unfortunately I got my brother hooked on MMOs through playing EQ and he was in the top raiding guild and then did the same in WoW and one night fell asleep raiding, got up out of his computer chair, and went to school the next day.
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Sep 16, 2020 00:38
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cmdrk posted:One day I was like... what the gently caress am I doing? and never played again. this is me with 90% of mobile games i've played
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Sep 16, 2020 01:25
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Phigs posted:I think a possible next step is fully automated MMOs. You get to choose the kinds of activities your character does and their spec/gear/whatever but your character(s) do all the work. Then make it work like those incremental games where if you go away things keep happening but because you're not assigning new talents and swapping in new gear you do it less efficiently until you log in again some time later. You could add instances and raids and all kinds of things other MMOs have. Expcept now you can add a shitload of grind for players to go through over time but without actually making players grind through it themselves so casuals can compete close enough with the poopsockers. Plus it's perfect for chatting poo poo with your friends while your characters do their poo poo during a raid. I could see a whole genre of idle MMOs taking off. Automated MMOs are here. Mostly on mobile, yes, but you can also use illegal software to automate everything in a game when devs aren't looking. So full automation seems to me like the previous step and not the next step. The amount of time you spend in an MMOs should directly convert to your character's advancement. With that said, I like where the VRMMO genre is heading. Another Kickstarter but a good glimpse into the early days of VRMMO. ILYSIA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IatDvE3-Pl0
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Sep 16, 2020 02:18
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Biowarfare posted:I wasn't... alive for the first batch of MMOs. Lack of choices. They were the only MMOs in town. Ultima Online was almost literally THE only MMO from 1997 to 1999. You wanted to play in a permanent world where things changed while you were logged off, and actually had lots of people? UO was it. Everquest got popular because it wasn't UO. Skills mattered less than levels, you weren't forced to pvp, and it was in 3d. It was plenty different, but hampered by The Vision (Brad McQuaid's specific ideal of what an MMORPG should be). We may have technically had choices from then on, but it took Blizzard, who actually were competent at the time, to realize we could be having more fun than that.
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Sep 16, 2020 03:25
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Biowarfare posted:I wasn't... alive for the first batch of MMOs. The choices were much more limited at the time. Even when WoW launched that's pretty much the only game me and my friends played for ~3 years. After Burning Crusade it seemed like the internet went into overdrive. I remember going from waiting on Amazon to ship my Baldur's Gate CD-ROM so I could play the game to instantly installing Oblivion on Steam with 1 click. These days if you want to play games, you just open Steam and download a 50GB title in less than an hour. 30 years of gaming is at your fingertips. And movies with Netflix. And the entire music library with Spotify. If you add some Youtube, news, and any social media sites you visit to your daily dose of internet, you will quickly realize there are not enough hours to do everything. Now imagine you're a healthy goon that has a real life social circle, outdoor hobbies, and a job. Well you can forget about raiding or doing anything serious in an MMO. So what I really want is an MMO that only 16 year old me can play. Present and future me will never actually play this dream MMO I am always posting about.
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Sep 16, 2020 04:30
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Half of you people describing what you want out of MMOs is actually those persistent servers for crafting games with some combat sprinkled in. Minecraft literally has procedurally generated dungeons to find and loot, I think that's what you're looking for.
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Sep 16, 2020 05:36
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Gettin fuckin deep in the Dead MMO thread.
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Sep 16, 2020 06:08
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bewilderment posted:Half of you people describing what you want out of MMOs is actually those persistent servers for crafting games with some combat sprinkled in.
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Sep 16, 2020 09:47
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Biowarfare posted:I wasn't... alive for the first batch of MMOs. The goal wasn't really to speedrun to the end so you could do raids or whatever. Leveling itself was a big deal so you could still log in for an hour or two and get something done, even if it was just progress on a level or finding something useful. Then you could do the really time consuming stuff on weekends or you'd stay up late on weekdays. It was more about just existing in this world and exploring it and meeting new people imo. WoW was a nice comfortable change of pace but unfortunately it has gone way too far in one direction and now it doesn't at all feel like a real virtual world. It feels more like you just mindlessly do hundreds of pointless quests in order to run dungeons or raids for months on end with your guild and that's it really. People are 100% anonymous and no one cares about anyone except if they're in your guild. There's no dynamic feel to anything. The world is just filler. A lot of players in WoW would be happy if they could press a button and just bypass all of the leveling and "doing stuff in the world" so they could just get to the "endgame" of playing instanced dungeons and raids forever Zzulu fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Sep 16, 2020 |
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Sep 16, 2020 10:10
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MMOs that revolve around character progression can only really offer a meaningful multiplayer experience for as long as there are other players around your level. That becomes harder and harder to achieve as more players reach max level and condense at the endgame, leaving the world empty at lower levels. Modern MMOs try to bandaid this with cross-server instances, but that results in everybody just being strangers, so it doesn't help at all. I'm convinced that all MMOs have a very short best before date. If you get in early and play through the game at the same pace as a large part of the players, you can have tons of fun, but sooner or later the world will just die, because new players won't have a good time, so there won't be enough of them to replace any leaving old players.
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Sep 16, 2020 11:10
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We used to accept that one person wouldn’t be able to accomplish everything there is to do in the game, so we chose what was important and did that. It made the game feel more massive and differentiated players. And yeah, I was 22 and only taking classes 3 days a week, not 38 with a career that never leaves my mind and a glut of entertainment options that makes it impossible to commit to just one. Plus I had a much longer attention span before smartphones and social media. And as I mentioned before, the other people we were doing this stuff with were people we made lasting connections with, not silent randos from some other server that we summoned on a whim and never saw again. Your party members in modern WoW might as well be AI. Dross fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Sep 16, 2020 |
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Sep 16, 2020 12:07
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cmdrk posted:That describes SWG for me. I remember coming home and immediately checking my harvester farms. One day I was like... what the gently caress am I doing? and never played again. I have this moment with a lot of games these days. Even extremely long single player ones. If I’m not into the story and the gameplay hasn’t fully hooked me it ends up feeling like I’m just trying to crush my backlog and I lose interest.
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