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Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

The Danganronpa games were something I never got into. Not because I didn't like them, it was because I just never ended up buying them or trying a demo. Not sure why.

I did watch someone online do this opening section before though, and it looked pretty cool. I'll be following this thread along, mostly out of morbid curiosity. I've heard a lot of things about this series since it started.

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Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

I honestly didn't expect people that aren't familiar with the first two games to check this out.

These Japanese anime visual novel/RPG/whatever games are usually my jam. They almost always deliver on one of two things for me: happily ever after style romantic conclusions (which I'm a sucker for), or weirdness/being overly convoluted and leaning into it HARD. Unfortunately I missed the boat on some of these series for various reasons. I think Danganronpa was because I was burnt out on 999 and later Virtue's Last Reward. It's just a series I never hopped on board with when it first came out.

So I'm here largely because this series has looked interesting, but it's a bit too late for me to try and catch up with it all. Also, people SSLP'ing Japanese games of any kind is usually hilarious.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

This:


Is the completely correct response to this:



TheMcD posted:

Nope.

Komaru had no idea Byakuya ended up captured, meaning the question of "actually, how did you know that" is still valid.


It would have gone beyond plot hole if she had suddenly told Toko that he was captured. Even with that Megaphone gun, Komaru saw Byakuya's entire team get torn apart in seconds and she had blocked off the nearest escape route by taking the elevator. If I was in her shoes, I would've written him off as dead the second the doors closed. Not to mention that those things don't exactly look like the 'capturing' type.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

FPzero posted:

And here we see the first of many reasons I dislike this game's plot. Specifically, how it handles Yuta's "execution" compared to the rest of the series' murders. In the span of one update, about 10-15 minutes in the game, we are introduced to Yuta and then witness his death. There is absolutely no time for the player to get attached to this character in any sense and his death feels cheap and arbitrary, like nothing more than the developers suddenly remembering "hey we're making a danganronpa game, that means we have to kill cast members". In DR1 and 2, the player spends a good few hours with every single character before anyone dies in Chapter 1, leaving way more time for them to start getting attached to even the earliest murder victim. It's why the tension of knowing a murder would occur soon and hoping and praying it wasn't going to be a character you liked and had spent time with would be the next to die was so good in the previous games. The games were ripping apart your relationships with the characters by killing them off right in front of you after you'd spent time to get to know them. The same can't be said of this scene and it's really disappointing. Going into this update, I didn't even remember Yuta's name, just his relationship.

His death would be much stronger if he were treated as a recurring character and died at some point later in the story. Instead, he's nothing more than a story reminder that the bracelet on Komaru will explode if she tries to leave.


freshlybaked posted:

I may be wrong since I don't know what's coming ahead, but I don't get the sense that this scene was meant to be anything other than just reminding us that those bracelets are for real and that nobody is safe. I doubt the writers meant for you to feel any attachment to Yuta since it was so obvious he was going to bite it the moment he insisted on swimming on it.

This is what I side with in this instance. FPzero is definitely right in that introducing a character in detail and then immediately killing them is a cheap moment, but I also think that there is some narrative value to pulling this from time to time.

His death most certainly would have had more weight had the audience/player been given the chance to bond with them and grow attached, but setting up that expectation and then subverting it can be a powerful moment in its own right.

I don't know anything about the Danganronpa universe or the characters. It was a series I missed out on and never bothered trying to catch up with as new games came out. Maybe this is a slap in the face of fans. From an outsider's perspective though, I think this mostly works. It serves to remind characters and players of the stakes, consequences, and a problem that will need to be solved for the heroines to get out of this. The game also seems to center on these two characters as the lead, making them the focus, not the extended cast.

Now whether or not this is a one time deal or it gets pulled again later, I think that will be the determining factor for me. There is also the question of how much of an impact this has on our focus characters. Then there is the slim chance of a 'fake-out death' being attempted. I'm not going to rule that out either. I'm interested to see how this plays out and how I end up feeling about this death as the game goes on.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

FoolyCharged posted:

Shoot the only reason anyone gives a crap about that scene at all is that they gave him a face and a name, and ones that refer back to a character that had an entire game of character development.

Like change him out for a generic adult sprite/model or a future foundation guy and the rest of the scene plays exactly the same. Would anyone have honestly been bothered at that point?

Do any of those randos have the bracelets? Doesn't it have something to do with the family or important people being trapped in the city or whatnot? I could have sworn there was some detail about why our heroine, specifically, was locked up.

The scene wouldn't have worked without an 'important' character if that was the case, since only they have bracelets. Although I guess you could have changed it to be a swarm of Scuba Monokuma's or something. When the scene started that was honestly what I was expecting. Thought some type of amphibious Mono's were going to pop out.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

Faceless people have no bracelets, no. They're just civilians.

Right, so this scene would have had to involve a 'face and name' character in order to work and have anything approaching an impact. That's what I thought.

Unless Aqua Monokuma, but then the characters wouldn't have been properly afraid of the bracelets.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

...You're rather excited for beating a little kid.
...Boo hoo.



And thus, Komaru owned a kid so hard it ran away crying. And she couldn't feel better about it.

Komaru is the kind of protagonist I can get behind. Her constant excitement over dunking on kids has my approval.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

ilmucche posted:

Aren't these kids the ones in charge of the monokumas? Why are they upset that they scored a kill?

Well Monaca seems to be faking it and the others just seem to be going along with whatever she does, so I don't think any of them actually give a drat about the supposed kill. If anything they just seem annoyed that the dude wasn't effective at his job.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Those kids have some good upper body strength for their age.


It's a little inconsistent with the size, but that's like what, a 32 or 42 inch TV? Even if it's flat panel that's still a good 25-40 pounds of awkwardly held weight.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

Spitting at you with cup noodles. Anyway, three shots to the eye and it goes down. We head up the stairs, but...



Oh come on. Three Komarus could fit through that gap at the same time. They even form a nice little ladder that you can climb up and a top bar you could swing inwards with. Are those things electrified or something?

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

Oh look, another character who was introduced to die.

Oh look, another character with ties to Chihiro who died.



Yeah, I defended this the first time it happened, but it's already been overused. My support for that first time hinged on the game not going back to that well, and they did it with the very next ally character. Regardless of how these pan out, this narrative device is now cheap and ineffective.


TheMcD posted:





And a Monokuma just ate his face off.

Ah, the Resident Evil movie method of not paying attention right when a door is about to open. Solid work, team.


TheMcD posted:

Clearly, Komaru just wants to take the scenic route because she's actually one of those country bumpkins Toko mentioned that like looking at towers like this. Sure, they're in danger of dying, but hey, when are you going to get another opportunity to visit this place? Especially since at the rate things are going, it might end up being blown up before the day is over.

Can't argue with that. Who knows, could be cool poo poo to loot on that floor too. No reason to pass on that possibility.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Blue Labrador posted:

Man I don't know exactly why but I really do like Komaru as a protagonist. That's definitely a really big charm point of the game.

I love her. I love her WTF expression when insane poo poo is going on and I love her propensity for rubbing kids faces in it when she beats them.

I also side with her in this little spat between the heroines.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Sorry, but despite how much of an rear end in a top hat Hajii might be, he has some drat points. The kids even talk about using Toko and Komaru to massacre all the remaining adults. Sure, the base would have been found at some point, presumably, but that doesn't excuse Toko and Komaru possibly leading the Monokuma Kids or whomever straight to it and then acting like they are saviors (at least in Toko's case anyway).

I don't side with Toko at all on this one. It's real easy for someone with crazy "split-personality Anime powers to cut bears to ribbons with a pair of scissors" power to talk about doing something. The adults here can do what, exactly? Hit them with pipes and boards? The only reason Komaru is still alive is because of Toko and the fact that she was given a future-tech gun that works amazingly well against the Monokuma's. I could maybe see their point if the Resistance was well armed or well trained in combat and were just too chicken to act, but these are regular people off the street. If you send them out, they are going to die, as we just witnessed happening.

Hajii's choice is literally between hiding and trying to come up with a workable plan or waiting for some miracle to happen, or leading everyone under his watch straight into a meat-grinder that none of them will escape from. Toko is looking him straight in the face and telling him to lead a suicide march.

He also has a genuine reason to suspect they are spies for the kids. The two of them destroying some Monokumas means absolutely nothing in terms of trust building. Those are robot killing machines. Sure, they took out two of the Heroes, but none of the adults know that or can confirm it. Hell, Toko and Komaru can't even conclusively prove they did it. There was no body left. The Monokuma Kids just surrounded them and they disappeared. I still have doubts they're dead myself, especially with the way that the other kids keep questioning Monaca about it and she immediately intimidates them into acceptance.

Psycho Knight fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Dec 18, 2018

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

SSNeoman posted:

On the other hand, imprisoning your only source of defense against the kids seems real stupid.

TheMcD posted:



Sometimes I also make incredibly intelligent choices, like blasting a Bomber near an adult that's about to die, killing them. Then I make that choice twice. I killed more of the adults by mistake than by screwing up killing Monokumas. Man, I'm good. Anyway, that segment goes on for about two minutes in my case - it's a fixed number of Monokumas you need to take out.

They might actually be safer with those two locked up. Or at least LP Komaru.


Hobgoblin2099 posted:

Yeah, I didn't comment on everything regarding that update, but that kinda attitude reminds me of Final Fantasy XIV where you have a bunch of revolutionaries violently killed onscreen by the evil empire that has taken over their homeland and this is immediately followed up by one of the characters going to their homeland, which is pretty much mostly just the elderly and children at this point, and going "Why don't you guys fight against the empire?"

Not everyone has main character privilege.

Which area/part was that? That's not part of the Stormblood DLC, is it? I never did get back into the game enough to play through that one.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

OK, I'm going to disagree here, because there are two theses in particular about UDG I represent. Those two are "Monaca is awesome" and "Haiji is a massive incompetent fuckhead".

Number one - on the topic of the base being found. Nagisa does say something about using Komaru and Toko to destroy the Resistance, at a later point he says he's already found the secret base while Komaru and Toko have just left Towa Tower. So it's a mixed bag on that front - not to mention the fact that the only reason Komaru and Toko went out to Towa Tower in the first place is because Haiji just told them to gently caress off because "abloobloo Future Foundation", leading to them getting a new plan from Shirokuma. So not good marks for Haiji on that point.

Number two - on the topic of "what can the Resistance do". OK, let's just assume that every single adult in the base is completely incapable of doing anything because they don't have super protagonist powers. So why exactly did Haiji then tell the very first two people who could do anything against the Monokumas that wandered into his base to gently caress off again? Because "abloobloo Future Foundation". It should at this point be pointed out that Haiji is the son of Tokuichi Towa, the chairman of Towa Group (this is noted in his bio). So he's the son of the head honcho. And we recently learned that Towa Group is at the very least complicit in spreading anti-Future-Foundation propaganda (if not the outright source), to the point of insinuating they're responsible for the Tragedy in the first place, which we know isn't true. So Haiji is turning his back on what might be the best chance his Resistance has at actually doing something about the problem because of corporate propaganda which in the best case he's simply bought into, and in the worst case he knows is bullshit.

Number three - on the topic of Haiji's plan. So, you're giving three options here. "Waiting for a miracle" is out (especially given that Komaru and Toko showing up would have been that loving miracle if he didn't throw it away immediately) and so is "suicide march", so let's take a look at "hiding and coming up with a workable plan". So, what is Haiji's plan?


Wait for a good opportunity. How is he going to know a good opportunity is there when nobody is allowed out of the base because he's so paranoid even Shirokuma has to sneak out without permission? I don't think he would have an answer for that. But let's just assume he has like a loving Spider-Sense for good opportunities and would magically know when to act despite not scouting at all. So, when is this going to happen? Well, he doesn't know, and that's a problem. Let's talk about time for a second, by putting up a time scale.

Day 1: Riots break out in Towa City. The Monokumas start their killing. Komaru escapes the apartment and is captured after passing out.
Day 2: Komaru sleeps in the Warriors of Hope's airship.
Day 3: Komaru sleeps in the Warriors of Hope's airship.
Day 4: Komaru wakes up, meets the Warriors, is air-dropped into Towa City. The events of Chapter 1 and part of Chapter 2 happen. Komaru and Toko sleep in the secret base.
Day 5: Komaru and Toko head to Towa Tower, the rest of Chapter 2 happens. The two eventually return to the secret base.

So, we're on day 5 of the riots, and we've clearly seen that the adults are already going stir crazy. I don't think Haiji realizes that if this continues for, like, a week, at least some of the adults will have probably gone completely insane, meaning that either people are going to start killing themselves rather than continue sitting in the base (which is going to do loving wonders for morale), start getting violent towards other adults, or in an even worse case, there's going to be outright mutiny and his rear end is either getting imprisoned or straight up murdered, depending on how insane the adults have gone at that point. His plan basically has a hard time limit and is doomed to fail unless something happens, which you'd think would inspire him to take a shot on Komaru and Toko instead of slowly lumbering towards complete dysfunction, but whatever, blah blah "not wasting lives" I guess.

Number four - on Komaru and Toko being spies. I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. The order of events is way too convoluted. If we assume the two are spies, that means that:

- They sought out and rescued Shirokuma, despite the fact that destroying it would have pretty much ensured that the Resistance would have shriveled up and died without their savior
- They made their way to the secret base with Shirokuma and then didn't launch an attack despite knowing that Shirokuma would lead them to the secret base
- They then get themselves thrown out, despite the fact that they wouldn't be overly combative if they were spies in order to do, y'know, spying poo poo
- They then stay at the secret base and absolutely nothing happens, despite that being a perfect opportunity to surprise attack and kill everybody
- They then leave the secret base and no attack happens after they've left
- They then return to the secret base for some reason and then, finally, an attack happens

This, to me, only works if you assume that Komaru and Toko were only able to reveal the location of the secret base to the kids after leaving, but then why even stay the night in the first place? Why return to the secret base and not just let Monokumas flood the place and murder everybody? Like, you can say that repealing the attack was supposed to make the Resistance trust Komaru and Toko, but that makes no sense because there's no reason for it - without Komaru and Toko, the attack on the secret base would have killed everybody because there was nobody there that can fight back, making the objective of making the Resistance trust Komaru and Toko completely redundant!

In conclusion, I think Haiji is a fuckhead.

My point was not to say Hajii is not a fuckhead. My point is that I in no way sympathize or side with Toko on this argument. I can still bring myself to side with one fuckhead over another fuckhead (Toko).

Number One - As you mentioned, that's a mixed bag.

Number Two - If he does know the propaganda is bullshit, then I'll give you this one, sort of. If he doesn't, then believing it is not really a strike against him. It's not as though there's any compelling evidence to win him over. Especially since Toko, who he finds out is a Future-Foundation member, is there making GBS threads all over him for not throwing people into the furnace. She argues this despite outright admitting that Future-Foundation can't really help them anyway, because they can't contact them. So she's calling him a coward and a pile of poo poo for not leading people on a suicide mission, but then immediately shrugs her shoulders when asked if she has any sort of plan. Toko is not exactly winning any points there on her part.

Number Three - So then the plan he should go with is risk everyone in the base by throwing his support behind two mysterious high-school girls that have managed to roam around the city without being killed? I don't exactly treat that as a safe bet. Again, the choice remains "Try and wait it out" or "Get everyone killed immediately". You mentioned yourself that Monokuma are all over the place down in the sewers. He starts sending out regular scouting parties and that base is finished within the day. He doesn't exactly have an army of ninjas on his hands.

Number Four -

- They had no knowledge of what Shirokuma was until they rescued it. At which point it started talking about being able to bring them to a shelter where a bunch of adults were hiding out. That sounds like particular useful information to potential spies. If it had turned out to be a human, they could have probed for info and killed them if they didn't have anything of use. It's not exactly solid evidence to suggest that the two of them aren't spies, at least to a non-present observer.

- Everything else assumes you aren't dealing with psychotic murder-adults obsessed kids. They enjoy doing hosed up poo poo and messing with people in horrific ways. I'm sure the survivors of this are in no way doomed to an excruciating death that the Warriors have a blast with.


So I'm not disagreeing with you that Hajii is a fuckhead. I'm in no way defending him as a person. But I am completely in disagreement with Toko's high-as-a-kite-horse attitude.

It's a very tense and difficult situation they are in. Finding a way out of it isn't easy. Toko's attitude towards this just isn't something I can sympathize with, considering that she is in no way an average person. So while I agree with you that Hajii is a douche, I'm going to have to completely disagree with you on Toko's approach to this. She's equally as moronic as Hajii is. The only difference is that her plan gets people killed quicker for arguably the same chances of survival (close to nil).

Psycho Knight fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Dec 18, 2018

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree - not because of the reasons you might be thinking of, but because I recognize that I am, like, SUPER biased against Haiji, partially because of reasons that will come up later in the game (and don't think you can infer something from that - remember, my favorite character in the game is the one that casually triggers somebody else's PTSD and then punches her in the face repeatedly to get her to shut up, being a horrible person doesn't mean I'm going to hate you as a character), and as a result, I feel like I am just wired to consider everything he does terrible. "Haiji's plan is terrible because it comes from Haiji, and Toko's plan must be superior, because it doesn't come from Haiji and is therefore better", that kind of thing.

Motherfucker could bring me a free cake and I'd just want to slam it in his face. He could be replaced with a dozen Teruterus and I'd consider it an improvement. So, that's just for some context.

That's fine, I'm not saying anything about him as a person, I'm just saying that he has points. You can hate someone and still admit they may have a point.

The main thing I'm against in this scene is Toko. She could be arguing with a generic NPC or a complete monster for all I care, I just completely disagree with her position. The simple fact is that she is advocating regular people to stick their necks out and get basically slaughtered, while she possesses crazy protagonist powers that make her a tornado of destruction. She does this while talking like she's on a mountain-sized high ground.

It also bothers me because, due to the narrative, she will be completely vindicated by future events. Not because she has any kind of superior point, but because she is a protagonist and things are just going to work out her way. It would be a major surprise if they didn't, but after the repeat of killing some new character the moment they appear, I don't have any faith the game will subvert my expectations on this one.

Psycho Knight fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Dec 19, 2018

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

This is the absolute-no-good-this-game-is-the-worst-series-ruining moment that everyone has been building up to?

Maybe I've just been too corrupted by the internet, or I'm too jaded, or cynical, or something like that, but I'm not really feeling the impact here. Don't get me wrong, that was a terrible moment to just haphazardly toss into a game for the sake of shock value, but at the same time I have definitely seen worse from video games.

Is this something that outsiders of the Danganronpa franchise just don't feel the true weight of? I don't see how this one bad moment would sink the entire game in people's eyes. Especially the series that routinely kills off people and kids in gruesome ways.


Also, the sympathy meter for these kids is still sitting around the 0 to 1 mark on the scale. "People didn't help me with my specific hellish suffering, therefore the entire world is horrible and all adults are the same" isn't winning me over to anyone's side. I was worried that Jack/Toko was about to make some stupid sympathy speech when she saved her. Turns out it was just an interrogation opportunity, though.

Psycho Knight fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Dec 20, 2018

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

I might be speaking too much from a personal perspective here, though I do have the apparently fairly unique perspective of "person that actually liked UDG". Whenever I brought up that I liked UDG in some sort of online conversation and somebody gave me poo poo for it, "the molestation scene" was pretty much a permanent fixture in the reasons why people thought the game was A) bad, B) the worst in the series or C) a game that should not have existed.

The gameplay came up less commonly, which is odd given that this is a visual-novel-puzzle-like series that morphed into a kind of mediocre third person shooter that you had to play with the loving Vita analog sticks before the PC port came out, which was a loving pain in the rear end, let me tell you (and I still love the game despite having beaten it on the Vita).

But yeah, this is the reason, at least from my experience, that everybody hates the game for.

That is weird. From what I've seen, the gameplay itself doesn't look bad. It looks like a pretty good game overall. I can sort of understand where fans would be coming from in terms of the weird out-of-nowhere genre change, but that one moment is by no means a reason to hate this game or think less of it. Plenty of good games have really uncomfortable, cringe inducing, or creepy scenes. This one, to me, just seems like an outlier. It doesn't even last that long. It's not like we were forced to sit through multiple electro torture segments like in MGS (or the very drawn out scene in Ground Zeroes that I assume everyone who has played that game knows what I'm talking about).

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

resurgam40 posted:

As Fedule said above, it's an example of a game trying to have its cake and eat it too- to be against sexualization and abuse and then to indulge in it and make the player indulge too. Again, the question we asked in DR 2 and the DR anime must be asked: should a thing that is meant to be gross and uncomfortable and rejected by the author be so in our faces that we become sickened, and at what point does it become exploitation of the thing it is ostensibly against? A lot of people quit the game at this point, and I don't blame them; I'll probably never willingly pay money for this game myself. It is the nadir of the series, as far as I'm concerned... fortunately, I cant recall any other part that is quite this bad.

I just don't see it as being the game killer that some people do, I guess. Having your cake and eating it too is something games do near constantly. The biggest example of this is that every year sees the release of a best-selling game that tries to show that war is horrific and terrible and gruesome, then immediately goes "You just got to jump in a flak canon and tear people into bloody pieces with it! Wasn't that badass!? Go online and customize your guns with frilly colors and decals and maybe you can be a professional someday!" Media is filled with that kind of hypocritical duality.

I just don't get it. It's a bad moment, it isn't handled well, but I wouldn't toss out the entire game for it.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

On a different note, I can't help but wonder why all of the male characters have been used as fodder, but both Hiroko and Kotoko survive their similar situations.

Not really a complaint, just genuine curiosity.

Isn't Kotoko needed for the Junko v2 thing we just heard about?

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

MonsterEnvy posted:

Why. Monaca is at the center did you not hear her.

I figured out what it was. I thought that picture in the ritual circle was Kotoko, but when I zoomed in I saw the differences. I don't know Junko, so I saw the pink-haired twintails and thought it was the pink-haired twintails we were just dealing with.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

Oh, yeah, that'll do it.



It's still strange to me that there's people here in this thread that aren't familiar with DR1 / DR2. It's not a bad thing, just... weird.

I know of the series, and I remember wanting to pick it up when it first came out (because I grab almost every weird Japanese game that releases), but I just didn't for whatever reason. Due to that, it just kind of passed me by and I only learned some surface details about it (the general gameplay, the deaths, that kind of thing). I know nothing of the plot or the characters or even this whole world-ending ultimate despair stuff. I always thought this was just a Saw-esque situation.

I figured that was Kotoko's picture in the circle because Monaca was going to raise her to be the new Junko since they look alike. I didn't notice the little hair clips or eye color until I zoomed way in. If I knew the characters or series better then I probably would have noticed it at a glance.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

But if that's true, then that means Nagisa is basically doing to everyone what his parents did to him.

Even if that brainwashing point isn't true (although that sounds entirely reasonable as a big reveal later on), they are no less hypocritical. "Two wrongs don't make a right" has been a constant thing in this game. It's the reason I have absolutely no sympathy for these little brats.

I mean, come on:

TheMcD posted:

J-Just as I expected, you guys were just tools to her... She was using you...
The way she took you in... It's no different than a cult. You bring in the weak people and attach them to your own dream... The revolution you're talking about... It's all just another piece of despair to her.
You guys...were completely deceived by Junko Enoshima.
And what's wrong with that? Did I not tell you that we are her possessions? We would rather her take advantage of us than horrible adults.

I can't sympathize with that level of stupid, even if it is a kid. "We were abused by those adults, but this adult is abusing us in a completely different way, so we are entirely okay with that and we even deify her. Trust me, it's completely different and in no way runs counter to our entire ethos."

Psycho Knight fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Dec 27, 2018

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

SSNeoman posted:

I didn't really read this as abuse, just that they are okay with following Junko's plans because it helps them too.

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

Yeah, it's not really airtight logic, but it's more "I'd rather be manipulated by someone who helps me get free from abuse than manipulated by someone that makes me want to kill myself".

TheMcD posted:

Pretty much. I mean, Nagisa also says that Junko "showered [them] with love and affection", and for children who to this point have basically only known horrific abuse from their parents or negligence from their school (who just stuffed them into the "problem child" class with no intentions of addressing their problems), I would figure that meeting somebody who literally pulled them from the edge of a building, gave them a dream to live for, taught them that they don't need to just take their abuse and can actually fight back, and showed them the love they never got from their family would probably make me want to deify them as well.

Sure, we know Junko is just putting on a front and doesn't actually love anything but despair, but they don't know that. For them, doing what Junko wants them to do is just repaying what she has given to them. There's a reason she's managed to create a personality cult that hosed the world up almost beyond repair.

Random side thought: You should sympathize with the Warriors of Hope at least to the point that you believe they can be redeemed - or rather deprogrammed. Why? Because that's what Makoto would believe. After all, the Warriors of Hope are basically just kid versions of the Remnants of Despair, and he managed to deprogram them in DR2 through the Neo World Program. And hey, who better to know who to believe in than the Ultimate Hope, right? And I'm sure that while the Warriors of Hope have committed an atrocity, it was at least confined to a city. The Remnants hosed up the world.

No, I'm not biased at all, why do you ask?

Just because she showed a bunch of fake compassion and used flowery language doesn't mean anything. She took advantage of a bunch of kids in a fragile state and crafted them into her personal tools that she could use to fulfill whatever sinister idea she had in mind. She deceived, manipulated, and coerced the kids into performing all of these heinous acts. She turned their suffering, hatred, and horrific pasts into fuel to get them to do what she wanted, which in turn made these kids everything they hate about the adults that abused them. Not physically harming them doesn't mean it isn't abuse. They aren't free from anything, they're just dancing in some different sicko's palm.

And no, I will not sympathize with the Warriors of Hope. As far as I'm concerned, they are long past the point of any possible redemption. They are mass murderers that reveled in the terror they were spreading and regularly tortured people. They are the ringleaders of a city-wide campaign of terror and death. They know what it is they are doing. My sympathy for them only extends to the point that they got revenge on their lovely parents or guardians for the abuse they suffered. The moment they started slaughtering innocent people, the sympathy dies. Why exactly should these kids be given the opportunity to be 'deprogrammed' or 'redeemed'? Is someone going to stand up in front of the survivors of this 'game' they were playing and tell them "Sure, these kids killed all of your loved ones in gruesome ways and totally destroyed your lives and took joy in doing it, but how about you give them a chance?"

I know it won't happen because of the type of game this is, but I'm still rooting for the survivors of the shelter to get some mob justice.

Psycho Knight fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Dec 28, 2018

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Oh great, I see where this crap is going and I don't like it. I hate Toko for starting this poo poo with her cowards lecture. Now Komaru is in on it too.

TheMcD posted:

I had a reputation in the hospital that my blood-drawing skills never missed a vein.

Pfft, I've heard that before in a hospital. Heard it right before the nurse took 5 stabs at finding my vein before calling over another nurse for a second set of eyes.

Challenge accepted, Hiroko.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Are they just trying to make Haiji as bad as possible so that the brats (and Toko in my opinion) look okay by comparison? Komaru is the only character I like in this game so far, and even she is slowly sliding due to Toko's influence with that coward and normal bullshit.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

What about you talking about? I'm sure nothing bad will come of giving a giant war machine to a bunch of child haters.

I'm looking forward to it. The Monokuma Kids are still up in the air as to whether or not they are actually willingly going along, but the Warriors of Hope can go and get squished. I'm sure those bastards aren't dead given how the game is currently progressing.

Do it Big Bang Monokuma. Wreck the Warriors of Hope's poo poo. Even though I know that won't happen because there's going to be some stupid warped moral at the end. I can dream though. I can dream.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

OK, here's a random question I just thought of because I'm not sure if there is basically one answer to this question or more than one right now.

That question is: "Who is going to become The Successor?".

Because I know the answer, I might be seeing hints towards answers that others might not be seeing or something, so I'm curious.

I originally thought Kotoko, but that's out the window with that last Monaca scene.

So it's got to be Komaru. Monaca says 'Your child', so it doesn't seem like it's herself that she's referring to. Toko just talked about how her moms didn't want her or some poo poo, so I don't see how Monaca taking them captive or killing them would do anything to her. Komaru is pretty much the only one that fits the bill, especially since she's apparently being strung along by Nagito for some mysterious purpose.

Psycho Knight fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Jan 4, 2019

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

This is what I figured would happen. Screw you Toko. This is what you wanted. This is what you got on your soapbox for. Now you're going to turn around and go "Uhh, this is out of hand. I can't believe they'd turn out like this."

You worked a mob into a frenzy, what the gently caress did you think was going to happen when they acquired the means to retaliate? Did you think they were going to just send out Big Bang Monokuma and go "Okay, all the Monokuma Kids and the Warriors of Hope better give up now. We have a weapon, so now everything can just stop and end peacefully."

I really hate Toko. Even more so because now I'm sure I know what's coming up on the horizon.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

SSNeoman posted:

Eh disagree. Toko's heart was in the right place, she just told the speech to the wrong guy. She was right, Haiji was accomplishing jack dick while he was in the sewers. It's just that now he has the power so he will abuse it because he's a fuckhead.

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

Giving a rallying speech to people who have been saying "God, I want to slice open these kids' stomachs and strangle them with their guts" (This was a near verbatim thing, as I recall.) probably wasn't the best idea.

What Hobgoblin said. It doesn't matter who Toko gave that speech to. Those adults were all down for getting payback if they could only get the means to do so. Let's not pretend like Haiji is some aberration that is the only one willing to carry out retribution. The adults are right there next to him cheering him on while he carves a trail of destruction through the streets (and also getting in whatever swings they can of their own).

I don't agree that Toko's heart was in the right place and this was just some unforeseen consequence. She directly called the resistance cowards for not fighting back. What exactly did she expect 'fighting back' to entail? Protest signs and chanting? This is exactly what anyone would expect a mob of terrorized and fearful people to do the second they got the means to 'fight back' against an enemy that has been gleefully hunting them and torturing others to death while tearing their lives apart forever.

With the way she's acting now, Toko looks like someone who was hoping to recruit meat shields. She wanted those adults to 'help' by putting themselves in danger in order to make her's and Komaru's job easier, but doesn't want them to actually succeed in fighting back. As soon as she sees them 'fighting back', it's suddenly wrong or isn't being done the right way.

gently caress Toko.

Psycho Knight fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jan 17, 2019

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

After all... I don't hate adults anymore. They're not Demons to me, not one bit!

And? Whether or not you hate them is absolutely meaningless. You aren't forgiven. You haven't been redeemed. You are still a complete monster that deserves to rot in jail for the rest of your life at best. Burned at the stake at worst.

Don't do this, game. Do not loving dare try and pull a face turn on these creatures. Their tragic backstories do not absolve them of any possible wrong doings. You can't just pop a "well she was kind of being manipulated, even though she was still reveling in every moment of it" and think that erases all of her deeds.


Outside of that, Komaru shows once more why I like her so much. It's just too bad that she seems to be heading right for a hero trait that bugs the poo poo put of me. Also, Toko's corruption.

Psycho Knight fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jan 21, 2019

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Well, Toko, you did rescue Kotoko from the Monokuma kids, helped Komaru rescue her from Monokuma, and just let her go both times. Taking their side might be a little far, but it's not as much of a stretch as it should be.

Socki's saga is finally over with. Thank god. That was the weirdest picture book ever.

Also, I now see something shocking coming up related to Monaca.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

No... Nooo... Is Monaca gonna be killed? I don't wanna die...
No, there's no way I'd kill you! Of course not!

Why not? She deserves to die. Leaving her alive is just going to result in her trying all of this poo poo over again. What is wrong with all of you?

What war is going to break out with a city that's been reduced to rubble and had nearly all of its citizens killed?

There's video of the atrocities committed against these people. The adult's bodies are lining the street. Two of Future Foundation's members are in the city and have first-hand experience with everything that has happened. How exactly is a war going to break out? Do you think the remaining adults are just going to immediately attack when people come to rescue them? Is Future Foundation just going to see what happened and go "Oh, well I guess we better start a full-force assault without investigating anything"?

I have so many problems with what is going on here, and I have a feeling the epilogue is only going to compound those problems. Kotoko appears to be heading straight for a redemption resolution, which is flat-out unacceptable garbage.


Is this Despair and Hope thing like the Force of this universe? Does it have the same bullshit properties of people being one or the other, and a single action just pigeonholes them into the "Dark Side"?

Psycho Knight fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jan 27, 2019

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

We'll do both opening the wrong door and breaking the controller early when I go through the chapter again.

The issue between Future Foundation and Towa Group centers around the fact that Towa Group literally engineered the Incident that hosed the entire world over, and not only that, but also spread anti-Future-Foundation propaganda in its city. Haiji is now the de facto head of Towa Group, so therefore the leader of the resistance is pretty much as guilty as Monaca, openly admitting he didn't interfere in her plans simply because she made them money despite suspecting she was up to no good. So he at the very least is going to get Nürnberg'd to gently caress as a collaborator, if only as a stand in for the old man CEO.

There's video of the atrocities the children committed, sure, but all of that was recorded and broadcast from Monaca's side purely to demoralize the adults. She's smart enough to know to wipe her prints afterwards.

But not smart enough to get rid of her "memoirs" where she flat out admits to trying to create a successor to Junko and basically masterminding this whole thing, as well as decorating her entire room with a creepy collage of every existing picture of Junko including one where the two of them are together and being buddy-buddy. Not to mention the entries on particular people connected directly to killing game participants which discusses the best ways to lure out adults and slaughter them that all but proves the kids were behind it. I'm sure she got rid of every piece of video evidence including any video the adults may have taken from things like cell-phones. Even without that, there's more than enough to result in her being one of the prime suspects of the incident when combined with witness testimony of people that watched all the broadcasts.

TheMcD posted:

Assuming Monaca's plan worked, meaning Komaru destroyed the controller and went full despair, Future Foundation would find the following situation:

- The streets are lined with bodies, of children and adults alike. The adults are torn to bits or slashed up, and the kids are all just straight up headless.

The children are all headless, dying in the exact same way. Meanwhile the adults are piled in heaps, strewn about in diners and cars as though they were killed by complete surprise, strung up in macabre art exhibits, impaled, laying in torture chambers, whatever other horrors may have been inflicted on them.

TheMcD posted:

- The only people remaining are a group of adults swearing up and down that they had nothing to do with the killing, and actually it was the children's fault, they were controlling the Monokuma robots and killing everybody. Also don't pay attention to the head of the Towa Group that's with our group, it was actually the eight-year-old child genius that orchestrated everything behind his back. He's totally innocent in all this.

Haiji is something they would have been kept in the dark about, so that can't really be used against them as evidence they were all in on it. Unless Future Foundation believes every single surviving person in this incident is conspiring to cover for Towa Group despite what they would supposedly know.

As for the adults claiming the kids were behind it, they do kind of have evidence that would support their claims. The fact that only adults are ones with Monokuma sized claw marks all over their bodies is a pretty good sign. Also, I just mentioned the evidence that Komaru actually has which points to Monaca. Not exactly far fetched.

TheMcD posted:

- Also, the last time Future Foundation showed up in Towa City, they got slaughtered by the dozens, with only two of them mysteriously remaining unharmed. Byakuya basically knows gently caress all, being stuck in a room for the entire time, and what the hell is Toko going to say? That she helped in turning Makoto's sister into the new Ultimate Despair? Everything she says would just beg more questions, which are inevitably going to implicate her as a collaborator.

Well, Byakuya witnessed the Monokuma attacking the city first-hand. The kids also locked him up, unless the Monokuma did it.

Toko is another witness to the kids (at the very least The Warriors of Hope) enacting this whole attack. Not to mention Monaca. She didn't exactly set out to turn Komaru into the Ultimate Despair. She was attempting to rescue Byakuya. Not exactly sure how she would be fingered as a collaborator considering the evidence that points to Monaca being behind it all.


I get it. Despair is some magical force in this universe that makes people bad and evil and have to be eliminated in order to stop everything from going to hell. But this is a stretch even knowing that. The people who have survived have been through hell. I do not see them mounting any type of random attack against would-be rescuers just for funzies. Meanwhile, Future Foundation rolling in, automatically pinning the blame on survivors, and slaughtering them all doesn't exactly paint them as a force for good. Why are they immune to being pulled into the Despair black hole?

The only one I see being hosed over from all of this by FF is Haiji, once his family's connection to this is uncovered. I can't see how ordinary citizens get pulled into this.

Psycho Knight fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Jan 27, 2019

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Right, so the kids get off scot free (I don't believe for a second that those Monokuma kids killed them, not with a vague shot like that and the fact they already were "turned" on by them and still lived). Monaca got crippled for real, but she gets to live on and get right back to scheming whatever. Meanwhile the adults are left with their nightmares, trauma, and having to rebuild their shattered lives. Also, the Monokuma kids are still being used to cause havoc.

I certainly feel like stuff was accomplished here.

I kind of hate this ending to be honest.


I don't have a vote since I have no idea what either of those choices are. In terms of nice things, I loved Komaru as a character for the first half of the game or so. I even still kind of like her at the end. But that kind of middle part where Toko prods her into that BS speech, I hate that, mainly because I grew to despise Toko and her crap.

Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

TheMcD posted:

I could slap you for spoiling that Monaca shows up, but let's just call that one a freebie, because well, why the hell else would I do loving Danganronpa 3 without any prompting. Of course Monaca is going to show up in some capacity. I'm transparent like that. Still, let's keep the rest to ourselves so everybody else gets to experience the trip and a half that is DR3 fresh.

To be fair, it's not exactly surprising. We know she survives. It's completely unambiguous. If the shot had ended on her under that rubble, then I might have possibly been slightly spoiled.

TheMcD posted:

Chapter 5: Kanon gets injured and seems to be unable to move, prompting Kotoko to taunt her and then molest her with a "portable motivaion machine", because she's adorbs. Hey, when you've got a thing like that, might as well stick with it, I guess.

Now this sounds bad, but she's redeemed now because she said she doesn't want to kill adults anymore.

Hatred for this game grows as time marches on.

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Psycho Knight
Jan 19, 2017

"Being a fangame and not bound to a rating, Pokemon Reborn is able to expand more on topics such as death and the extreme dangers Pokemon could pose. These topics...are treated with the respect such a subject deserves."

Let's throw a Medicham into a volcano and make it give the T2 thumbs up!

Everyone here is laughably incompetent. This definitely looks like a group perfectly capable of launching any type of offensive.

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