Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



I'm a little worried about our companion selection. I don't like having to use mercenaries, but the game isn't really providing us with some seemingly crucial party tools. No buffbot full-arcane caster, not really a good skillmonkey around, too many divine casters and overlapping classes. Kind of feeling like my PC should fill in those gaps, but with soooo many exciting archetypes to try out, I would really hope for the companions to cover our basic bases so you feel more free to try out some of the more unusual classes.

My hype for playing as a witch is all but dead, we get a companion to play with as one, but the class itself just seems kind of bad? Just a lovely wizard spell selection + some hexes. hexes are something you need to micromanage and it's kind of hard to tell when to use one and how much benefit you really feel from it.
Is Scroll Savant any good, seems you trade a few wizardy things for some slight bonuses to scrolls? I mean, I've already used more scrolls than I ever did in PK, but not sure how much I care to go out of my way to stock up on the good offensive scrolls.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Ryuujin
Sep 26, 2007
Dragon God

JamMasterJim posted:

There is the Vrock demon aspect that gives you flat boost on ranged attack rolls and makes enemies within 30 feet walk as if in difficult terrain, so that is nice .

Doesn't that only work when using Demonic Rage? And not sure if that prevents spellcasting, and if that includes Kinetic Blasts.

Zurai
Feb 13, 2012


Khanstant posted:

I'm a little worried about our companion selection. I don't like having to use mercenaries, but the game isn't really providing us with some seemingly crucial party tools. No buffbot full-arcane caster, not really a good skillmonkey around, too many divine casters and overlapping classes. Kind of feeling like my PC should fill in those gaps, but with soooo many exciting archetypes to try out, I would really hope for the companions to cover our basic bases so you feel more free to try out some of the more unusual classes.

My hype for playing as a witch is all but dead, we get a companion to play with as one, but the class itself just seems kind of bad? Just a lovely wizard spell selection + some hexes. hexes are something you need to micromanage and it's kind of hard to tell when to use one and how much benefit you really feel from it.
Is Scroll Savant any good, seems you trade a few wizardy things for some slight bonuses to scrolls? I mean, I've already used more scrolls than I ever did in PK, but not sure how much I care to go out of my way to stock up on the good offensive scrolls.


Yeah, not sure I agree with your complaints at all.

First, witches are probably the best debuff class in the game. Their spell list has great debuff and control options, good utility options, and pretty bad blasting options. The big buff spell I can see that they miss out on vs wizards is haste, which is certainly a downside, but they make up for it with their ability to prevent enemies from fighting back. Slumber, Evil Eye, and Cackle are all minor hexes usable at-will and will utterly crush encounters. Who cares that your party isn't hasted when the enemies are asleep and have a -4 penalty to saves, AC, or attack rolls? Or all three, since Evil Eye stacks with itself and Cackle can keep it up indefinitely.

As for companions: There's both a wizard and a rogue. Basically, I'm really not sure what you're complaining about there.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

Right in the Kokoro



There are WAY too many divine casters that much is true.

I will admit I wish we had another Alchemist because boy is being able to cast Shield on whoever a helluva drug

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



Totally could be off-base, this is still early in development and I'm still early in the game. Witch is all new to me so I've got a lot to learn. Really I probably just don't like my current party comp but I don't have any choice in it yet anyway so I really am not informed enough to make that fuss yet after sloppily spoiling the others for myself.

I might need to start over anyway, got an unshakeable bug on my PC anyway.

Khanstant fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Oct 16, 2020

Zurai
Feb 13, 2012


Yeah, the companion selection early on is pretty limited. It opens up later. There are definitely a lot of companions with divine spellcasting, but to be fair you're going to war with Hell.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



It's refreshing how focused the campaign is. Like Kingmaker you've got you main thrusts, but also a lot of the time you're dealing with people who got their own problems that might not be relevant to yours, or you're picking and choosing which things to pursue or give a poo poo about. These games in general there's a lot of the "main quest" but also "do whateva ya want." This is very focused, there's a really imperative important thing right now, it's loving with everyone and everyone's mindset and if you don't care about this demon poo poo, why are you here, this is the thing about the demons.

Ryuujin
Sep 26, 2007
Dragon God

Lord Koth, or someone who can test things fairly quickly, is there any way to get the Mythic Ability that adds +4 to physical stats, and at will to wild shape if you have it, when polymorphed on a Kineticist? Can a Kitsune take it? If a Kitsune can take it can they still use their Kinetic Blast and abilities while using their Racial Shift ability? I don't think Kineticists in this get the power that makes them large. Also I hear there is a level 10 feat that lets a Kitsune have Pounce while shifted, wondering how that interacts with Kinetic Blade.

Pretty sure Enlarge Person doesn't count for the ability, I tried taking it on my Abyssal Bloodrager.

Simone Magus
Sep 29, 2020


Khanstant posted:

It's refreshing how focused the campaign is. Like Kingmaker you've got you main thrusts, but also a lot of the time you're dealing with people who got their own problems that might not be relevant to yours, or you're picking and choosing which things to pursue or give a poo poo about. These games in general there's a lot of the "main quest" but also "do whateva ya want." This is very focused, there's a really imperative important thing right now, it's loving with everyone and everyone's mindset and if you don't care about this demon poo poo, why are you here, this is the thing about the demons.

I mean yes and no. I killed the stag lord with 70 days leftover and did a lot of screwing around, and the rest of the game is kind of more forgiving ultimately. Like yeah The Thing has a deadline but also there are a billion little things to waste time on and you're kinda encouraged to do so

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



Simone Magus posted:

I mean yes and no. I killed the stag lord with 70 days leftover and did a lot of screwing around, and the rest of the game is kind of more forgiving ultimately. Like yeah The Thing has a deadline but also there are a billion little things to waste time on and you're kinda encouraged to do so

Oh trust me, I do All of the Things in KM. I don't dislike that sort of game structure either. It's just Wrath is a little more directly focused on the crusades, which makes sense, and I like it too.

I've also noticed that many of the Lawful choices and Evil choices aren't just relegated to "good/bad." Even early on, I've seen a couple "evil" options that were either perfectly sensible things to say or do, or were the kind of thing where it might be evil to just play judge-dredd on the street, but this guy is a fucker and deserves it anyway imo. Some of the Lawful options have been really absolutist about the law, really showing the dissonance between law and what is Right. That's cool and I'm only in the prologue/first act.

SpaceDrake
Dec 22, 2006

So I give this all about equal odds of either going super well or, uh, gettin' us all killed. Messily.

So a couple of prayers from you guys wouldn't hurt, yeah?


Khanstant posted:

I've also noticed that many of the Lawful choices and Evil choices aren't just relegated to "good/bad." Even early on, I've seen a couple "evil" options that were either perfectly sensible things to say or do, or were the kind of thing where it might be evil to just play judge-dredd on the street, but this guy is a fucker and deserves it anyway imo. Some of the Lawful options have been really absolutist about the law, really showing the dissonance between law and what is Right. That's cool and I'm only in the prologue/first act.

This is very specifically something that Owlcat, and especially Nika Alborti, Owlcat's head writer, wanted to address after the (very deserved) criticisms of the issues with especially the Lawful choices in Kingmaker. I'm glad to hear they're getting it right so far.

Ryuujin
Sep 26, 2007
Dragon God

Update Two-Handed Fighter, still using Wide Swing even though Vital Strike doesn't help the hits against adjacent enemies, with Enlarge on him just crit for 212 damage. 4d6+40 damage x4 on a crit. Wonder if they have Improved Mythic Strike as well or not, but also I really need to get to 11th level and grab Improved Vital Strike for 6d6+60 or something damage.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



That's good to hear, I tuned into KM way late, well after the enhanced had already come out. Love when writers take criticism and act upon them.

Also a quick props to the just-started-to-be-implemented tutorial system. There's a room early on to introduce you to swarms and it's already a lot better of a teaching area than the spiders cave in PK. It even scans your party for abilities or items they have to deal with the menace.

Weird thing I was thinknig of suggesting on the alpha forums, but would y'all like to see the dice rolls? Like, we can see the math and results but I think I would also enjoy seeeing dice being rolled, even in big chaotic battles a stream of dice sims off to the side, just giving an idea of all the rolls going into it all? Not that we'd stop and peek at them, just seeing a visualization of them as they are made.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


JamMasterJim posted:

https://wrath.owlcatgames.com/preorder
You buy any version of the game, then the Alpha as a separate add-on (which comes up to 48 bucks at least). Beta access is only available with the 114$ Early Access package.

What's the difference between alpha and beta access?

48 bucks for the game and some kind of early access seems like a reasonable deal to me, I'm tempted.

Simone Magus
Sep 29, 2020


Khanstant posted:

Oh trust me, I do All of the Things in KM. I don't dislike that sort of game structure either. It's just Wrath is a little more directly focused on the crusades, which makes sense, and I like it too.

Oh, that's good to hear because I actually found KM a bit too loose for my tastes

JamMasterJim
Mar 27, 2010


Torrannor posted:

What's the difference between alpha and beta access?

48 bucks for the game and some kind of early access seems like a reasonable deal to me, I'm tempted.

Alpha is not feature complete (like no turn based mode yet, many missing archetypes, not all mythic abilities, mounts barely functioning etc). and it's out now. It's technically the 2nd phase, since the first version was out in May.

Beta should be feature and mostly content complete(though they will likely not allow you to play through the whole game), and will be out in a few months (if we go by summer 2021 release date)

SpaceDrake
Dec 22, 2006

So I give this all about equal odds of either going super well or, uh, gettin' us all killed. Messily.

So a couple of prayers from you guys wouldn't hurt, yeah?


If we still snag alpha access now, will we also get beta access or do we gotta pay for that?

cuntman.net
Mar 1, 2013



Khanstant posted:

Weird thing I was thinknig of suggesting on the alpha forums, but would y'all like to see the dice rolls? Like, we can see the math and results but I think I would also enjoy seeeing dice being rolled, even in big chaotic battles a stream of dice sims off to the side, just giving an idea of all the rolls going into it all? Not that we'd stop and peek at them, just seeing a visualization of them as they are made.

kingmaker already has that

in turn based mode

queeb
Jun 10, 2004

m





Grimey Drawer

im just getting into kingmaker, having never touched anything pathfinder related. I gotta say the turn based mode is loving really amazingly well done. I didnt like the one in PoE 2 that much but this is great.

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013


queeb posted:

im just getting into kingmaker, having never touched anything pathfinder related. I gotta say the turn based mode is loving really amazingly well done. I didnt like the one in PoE 2 that much but this is great.

It's basically a direct implementation of the tabletop's turn and actions system, including some of the unintuitive bits (like how a 5-foot step can be used by spellcasters to easily avoid most attacks of opportunity).

The main complication to watch out for is that because they did a straight translation of most of the mechanics, some stuff designed for turn-by-turn tabletop use is exhaustingly fiddly when not using turn-based mode, like a magus' spell combat ability or how witches are heavily incentivized to use a debuff hex and then Cackle repeatedly at the same time as casting spells.

Roadie fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Oct 16, 2020

cuntman.net
Mar 1, 2013



Roadie posted:

witches are heavily incentivized to use a debuff hex and then Cackle repeatedly at the same time as casting spells.

wait what

JamMasterJim
Mar 27, 2010


SpaceDrake posted:

If we still snag alpha access now, will we also get beta access or do we gotta pay for that?

No. Beta is locked under the 114 dollar preorder package now.

queeb posted:

im just getting into kingmaker, having never touched anything pathfinder related. I gotta say the turn based mode is loving really amazingly well done. I didnt like the one in PoE 2 that much but this is great.

Everything in kingmaker already functioned based on a round system following the pnp rules, so it's far easier to implement.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



cuntman.net posted:

kingmaker already has that

in turn based mode

Does it really? I mean, that's cool but I can't imagine a scenario where I'd change a game from rtwp to turn-based on purpose anymore than I'd drive a nail through my dick. (not kinkshaming, I'm glad there's a mode for you sadists out there) I'm looking basically for something like a dice-rolling particle effect shunted off to the side.

chaosapiant
Oct 10, 2012

White Line Fever



Khanstant posted:

Does it really? I mean, that's cool but I can't imagine a scenario where I'd change a game from rtwp to turn-based on purpose anymore than I'd drive a nail through my dick. (not kinkshaming, I'm glad there's a mode for you sadists out there) I'm looking basically for something like a dice-rolling particle effect shunted off to the side.

Being able to flip from turn based to RtWP is awesome and Kingmaker is screaming to be played in turn based. It plays so much better. And this is coming from a dude who loves RtWP and generally prefers it to turn based. Kingmaker in turn based mode is the best DND simulator you can get since Temple of Elemental Evil.

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013



Use Evil Eye, then next round Cackle as a move action to extend the Evil Eye debuff by one round and cast a spell as a standard action.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



chaosapiant posted:

Being able to flip from turn based to RtWP is awesome and Kingmaker is screaming to be played in turn based. It plays so much better. And this is coming from a dude who loves RtWP and generally prefers it to turn based. Kingmaker in turn based mode is the best DND simulator you can get since Temple of Elemental Evil.

Ideal DnD simulator I wouldn't be touching any of my companions' actions at all ever. That's my primary issue with turn-based, having to micromanage every single motion as if every unit was my PC and every party member just being me doing a puppet show for myself.

cuntman.net
Mar 1, 2013



Khanstant posted:

Does it really? I mean, that's cool but I can't imagine a scenario where I'd change a game from rtwp to turn-based on purpose anymore than I'd drive a nail through my dick. (not kinkshaming, I'm glad there's a mode for you sadists out there) I'm looking basically for something like a dice-rolling particle effect shunted off to the side.

i dunno rtwp is already enough of a mess as it is, it doesnt need to be even more unplayable

Roadie posted:

Use Evil Eye, then next round Cackle as a move action to extend the Evil Eye debuff by one round and cast a spell as a standard action.

thats great that theres a mechanic to cackle. definitely going to play as a witch in the sequel

FuzzySlippers
Feb 6, 2009




Are there gonna be more companions in the sequel? I much prefer having companions with stories instead of anonymous mercs but there were already so many neat classes in Kingmaker that I wanted more options and the sequel seems to have blown this up even more.

JamMasterJim
Mar 27, 2010


FuzzySlippers posted:

Are there gonna be more companions in the sequel? I much prefer having companions with stories instead of anonymous mercs but there were already so many neat classes in Kingmaker that I wanted more options and the sequel seems to have blown this up even more.

Right now, it's 12 confirmed companions compared to Kingmaker which had 13 with the DLC.
With 25 classes and 6 extra archetypes for each, on top of racial ones ( leading to 187+ ways to play a pure archetype straight), you'd never cover a substantial amount with story heavy companions.

You can use some creative multiclassing for most of them though, like in kingmaker.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

Right in the Kokoro



FuzzySlippers posted:

Are there gonna be more companions in the sequel? I much prefer having companions with stories instead of anonymous mercs but there were already so many neat classes in Kingmaker that I wanted more options and the sequel seems to have blown this up even more.

I mean, it's Pathfinder. There's no universe in which they could possibly create enough companions to satiate the FOMO factor if you're afflicted by that, especially with how many new classes/prestige classes/subclasses are being added.

You should resign yourself to the inevitable

Simone Magus
Sep 29, 2020


Turn based mode is awesome, I only use real time to mop up trash mobs, but at the same time, turn based mode also kinda makes the game a lot easier because it wasn't balanced around it. Certain classes, like eldritch scion, benefit massively from turn based

JamMasterJim
Mar 27, 2010


Simone Magus posted:

Turn based mode is awesome, I only use real time to mop up trash mobs, but at the same time, turn based mode also kinda makes the game a lot easier because it wasn't balanced around it. Certain classes, like eldritch scion, benefit massively from turn based

Honestly, before TB, I used the slowdown button and had pause trigger for almost everything. I only let it flow somewhat freely when it was mobs of single type weaklings like goblins or zombies. I appreciate TB largely for saving me the busywork.

Simone Magus
Sep 29, 2020


JamMasterJim posted:

Honestly, before TB, I used the slowdown button and had pause trigger for almost everything. I only let it flow somewhat freely when it was mobs of single type weaklings like goblins or zombies. I appreciate TB largely for saving me the busywork.

Yep same. Oddly enough I lowkey hate turn based in PoE2, I just set it to pause whenever I'm done doing anything because they did a really poor job imo

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

Right in the Kokoro



I think itís less that turn based is badly done in PoE2 and more that it was put in after the fact in a game that isnít remotely built for turn based.

FuzzySlippers
Feb 6, 2009




You also can't toggle TB in Pillars 2 so every dumb spider/minion fight you have to play out slowly.

Captain Oblivious posted:

You should resign yourself to the inevitable

Oh I do. I'm guessing a minimum of 6 restarts before I settle on a character. I hope they have no un-skippable prologue this time. It was a good bit of storytelling in Kingmaker but it got tedious over multiple runs. We've got the same thing in BG3 now and I know I'm gonna see it so many bloody times

Derail: One reason I loved Daggerfall so much for my alt-itis is that when you started the game it showed a video of the developers saying to go to Daggerfall and then dumped you into a reasonably difficult dungeon. You could test out builds so quickly! Wizardry 7 had that crazy ambush you could zip to and I did that sooo many times testing parties. It sucks in games like BG2 or basically every modern cprg where you have a tutorial dungeon and some story before you can find any fun combat.

FuzzySlippers fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Oct 17, 2020

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



So one thing I love about testing a game is doing poo poo I probably wouldn't if it was "for real." This time I did something kind of badass, but then goofed myself hard.

You got a place and this guy is like "lookit, buncha demon boiz down there, you need to go tell your boss and get help. I aint helping you if you just jump in." I wanted to scout ahead, but failed an atheletics check and crashed in view of all the demon boiz. I won the fight with only one person getting bloodied. Cool! Then in this little area there is an intractable pillar, so I clicked it... and rolled a pillar over that crushed my entire team to death instantly. Whoops!

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012



As another note about changing circumstances, here's one regarding companions in Chapter 3 (and thus very much in spoilers for those who want to be surprised).

When Irabeth talks about hiring an expert stalker to hunt down a dragon, do it fairly quickly as there's an invisible timer - not sure on exact length. The stalker is the Slayer companion you've encountered several times previous, and he's in the tavern and will say he's waiting around for his current employer's next contract. Proceed to do the dragon hunt and then offer him a permanent retainer to keep him around. He's not cheap (10k for the initial hire, an additional 50k/100k depending on whether you succeed or fail the hunt), but gold really hasn't been an issue in WotR with all the masterwork and magical equipment laying around. If you wait too long, he'll be gone as his current employer's next contract has indeed come through. It's on you. And just like your previous encounters, he'll ambush his target during another fight - there is no dialogue to try and talk him down.

Ryuujin
Sep 26, 2007
Dragon God

Huh I have been woefully under funded in WotR so far. Probably because I keep spending gold on finances either for troops or in some of my runs for buildings in my uh forts? or whatever they were.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



I've also been a bit strapped. Less beef boys and bags of holding too so lots of those annoying 10 pounder 100gold items are still on the streets cluttering my save file. I've had enough to buy a couple weak magic items but both times nearly wiped my gold reserves.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Beefeater1980
Sep 12, 2008

My God, it's full of Horatios!





Roadie posted:

witches are heavily incentivized to use a debuff hex and then Cackle repeatedly at the same time as casting spells.

This sounds amazing, so if I play a witch I get a mechanical benefit for yelling ďIíll get you and your little dog tooĒ at enemies?

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply