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Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

JamMasterJim posted:


Ember> Elf Witch (Stigmatized witch, custom for the game)


Oof, she'd better be a very distinct type of Witch. Witch is obviously the class all people on Earth are planning on using as their PC so it's a bit annoying to make one of our companions curbing our style.


I'm 178 hours into Kingmaker, right now I'm in a pleasant lull where I'm free to build my kinggom and stuff. I think I like this game, lol. Got me an evil lich advisor, my Lawful Evil kingdom is serene, things are looking up for the Bone Zone.

Combat has been trivial for too long now, though. Partially my fault for having OP class builds, but it just seems odd even when enemies get like 8x stats, they still die before I can even cast a cool spell. Did finally run into some real opposition last night exploring the Tenebrous Depths. Still managed to beat them but I did have to reload and actually buff up my team and position them a little. I have most of the difficulty things pushed up, except for ones that just seem like annoying or would waste time. I.e. not interested in reloading a save because some dingbat died permanently to a random trap or critical hit or whatever.

Is this difficulty curve of the game just wonky no matter what or on a second play-through would it be better to play fewer munchkins?

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Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Zurai posted:

Iiiiii... am not as confident of that as you. And besides, there are like 10 companions and they all have to have a class, and each of those classes will be what somebody out there is wanting to play. That's why there are 10 of them and only 6 party slots.

I tend to view that sort of thing as "10 classes I can't play." However, in Pathfinder's case, there are enough classes and kits to make two of the same in a party not feel too bad. My PC is a Monster Tactician Inquisitor and she feels distinct from Jaethal.

I do think Witch will be popular, like, Witches have been popular for decades but remain extremely underrepresented in videogames, especially cRPGs. It seems like it'd be a default core class to so many settings, hell, many settings straight up have witches but no class for them. Sworder, healy boy, living shield, wizard, witch, stealer.

I think if DnD 5E had a witch class, my current tabletop party would've had three witches (and two frog-people if they gave us a good frog race) in it.

Dishonorable mention for witchery: DOS2. The class system in general did nothing for any given "class fantasy" but their interpretation of witch was bad thematically and mechanically. IIRC they gave you you abilities with negative synergy, using opposing stats and targeting different armor types. You had a spell to remove magic armor, but your attacks were physical based.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Baller Time posted:

Monster Tactician was pretty good, until the summons turned into lighting bolt casting celestials who no longer tank for you and force you to have elec resistance up at all times

This is my whole reason for playing Lawful Evil, which has been a good choice so far. Rarely play evil in games, let alone for this long. It's nice.

Nephthys posted:

If you want a game to play as a Witch DOS1 has it as a class and its own spell-type. Its focused on summoning spiders and undead, charming, buffing and debuffing over damage. It was really thematic and fun to play. You don't even get an attack spell until the end of the game where you learn to death punch things.

That's more my speed for sure, I think I bought that game back in the day but didn't like it for whatever reason. Might have to retry it sometime.

Agent355 posted:

I just hit the point in the campaign where I upgraded my capitol to a city and now I have like 12 different upgrades with a 14-day timer on them. What the gently caress game, who the gently caress has time for all that poo poo. And so many of them are just incredibly minor but don't you dare do any of them or the game will yell at you for wasting time.

Who thought putting in time-wasting projects and also timed quests together was a good idea. It seriously hampers my enjoyment. It was pretty irritating when it was just the advisor upgrades and the occasional regional expansion.

Me, I'm the one with time for all this poo poo. I look forward to it more than combat encounters at this point. For what it's worth, if you hate it, you can mostly ignore it most of the time but there is some fun content in there imo. As for the time, they really give you waaaaay more than you need. Like, even if you go to every node and do every quest, you still have like a hundred days to burn. Worst case scenario, quest to your heart's content, and leave the kingdom stuff to the end of that chapter killing time. You can also turn it off entirely in settings I think.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
They've said they're working on better incorporating the management stuff into the game to make it feel relevant and more integral. I've never actually run into too much trouble from penalties, but I have reloaded a few times and just skipped <14 days to get to the curse crisis missions as soon as they pop up to avoid getting dinged, even though -5 or -10 to a stat really is mostly meaningless. Seems your options matter more than the little dings they use to pressure you. The hellknights was the only one where I was ever like "oh poo poo, how do i fix this."

I definitely think that if any quest is to have a timed element, they should put it in the UI like they do for the bald hill/curses. I reloaded a save because Mim Wobblegander died on a mountain and I like her too much to let it happen.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Avalerion posted:

Can any pathfinder knowers chime in on how mounted combat works? That seems like another thing that could get difficult unless the game is designed around that from the groundup. Or can you ride your horse or dragon mount into a dungeon?

I'm not really qualified to answer but I was curious anyway. The rules seem pretty cool and relatively manageable.

https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Mounted%20Combat&Category=Special%20Attacks

Archers don't get an advantage for high ground, but melee attacks do. However, archers can take full attacks while mount moves, and with a penalty attack while the mount is going extra fast or double-move.
Casters can cast normally if you have the mount move before or after you cast. Otherwise there are concentration checks because of the motion.The main benefit of firing while in movement comes with a penalty, so it's a cool option if you need it but not much there to build like a mounted wizard or ranger.

The mounted combat rules for 5E in comparison barely exist, I have a cool mount through Find Steed, but in combat it's actually better to not mount it and just have it as an extra body and turn of attacks.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Xan posted:

After crippling restartitis I finally beat this game. I don't think I could have done it without the turn based and companion respec mods. Those made the game a lot more enjoyable. Only played on challenging with no multiclassing and no crane style shenanigans. The end game wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be.

MC - Rogue
Valerie - Vanilla fighter
Amiri - Invulnerable Rager
Ekund - Ranger
Harrim - Cleric
Octavia - Scroll Savant (Divination)

I wanted to see if it was possible to beat the game with the standard D&D template of fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue. The rogue was underwhelming but provided good utility and the full BAB classes did most of the killing. The Scroll Savant was incredibly useful. Stocking up on 100 scrolls of mass heal and being able to cast it whenever I needed was a game changer.

Your PC stealing Nok-Nok's spot?! You understand Nok Nok is the hero of the game, so idk how you'd have a party w/o him. Pure-classing seems like a good sensible challenge route. I think everyone in my current party besides 2 people are 3-4 multiclasses. I definitely love doing it, but the game wasn't built to withstand it.

Speaking of Nok-Nok, is he or his heroic grandbaby going to show up?

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
Really feels like they're dancing around letting us check out Numeria. In my head, everytime it's been mentioned I just imagine that if I went there, they'd just load me into Torment 2.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
Yikes! That sounds pretty thoughtless. Why the gently caress are robots so robust? Our most modern robots would probably stop functioning after one good swipe at any of their wires or jamming a mechanism. Medieval Fantasy Robots should be even jankier imo. Also seems like they'd share more qualities with golems than anything else.

It's actually pretty frustrating to get locked into an unwinnable battle. Plenty of times where my whole party will get wiped except for Valerie, who cannot be hit but also cannot hit her target. For Valerie's quest, I had her beat this jerkass to death but it took probably an hour waiting for crits to do some work. I left it running for lunch and came back to them still taking missed swipes at one another.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
When I'm DM these so-called advanced robots will be defeated by water and a ball bearing tossed into their bellyworks.

Lord Koth posted:

Just a note here, but while the battle IS winnable it's very much designed so that you lose (assuming you come in with a fairly default Valerie build and at normal levels) - hell, the post-battle stuff really makes more sense if you do. The game just does a poor job indicating that it's perfectly fine to lose that fight with no repercussions.

Also, on a comical side note on how to trivialize the fight, if you move Valerie into a class that gets an animal companion (such as Feyspeaker Druid to take advantage of her CHA), the animal absolutely is allowed to participate.

Oh man, I didn't realize I was supposed to lose but I heard somewhere I lost her good ending anyway for letting her beat that guy to death. I'm Lawful Evil though so it seemed too out of character to be like "no, stop beating this rear end in a top hat who deserves it."

"Unwinnable" fight that does sound mandatory to a character ending: Amiri. Granted, she's probably my weakest party member since I have her as a weird off-tank but even with every buff and potion on her available to me that fight was just me save-scummin the hell out of it, I probably should've respected my time a little more and just "bag of tricks" cheated through it. Does a full-on assault Amiri fare better in that fight or is solo Armag just absurdly tough? I know he's somewhat tough, he bashed my squishies to death in single hits in the real fight later.

Khanstant fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Mar 11, 2020

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

ChrisBTY posted:

Hello. I tried to start playing this game. Got as far as finishing making a character only for Cindered Shadows to come out. I am juuuuust about burned out on Fire Emblem and am wondering if there are any resources available for me to skip 'trap' class builds. I made a magus but I didn't know what weapon to specialize in. I went dueling sword since I figured those would key off dex rather than str but really hell if I know.

Here are two builds/guides for melee-magic type characters. He also has a guide for Regongar as a Magus that should work on your PC just as well.
https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post32
https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post41

This guy's builds are very much min-max types of builds and a bit OP but you do get to feel crazy strong much earlier than you'd expect.

Agent355 posted:

At the very least murdering things and exploring areas is something I would be doing anyway and I can get a list off the internet. It could be worse.

E: is there a postgame where I'm allowed to still run around and do quests and kingdom manage after I finish the main quest? Just in case I want to sweep up random poo poo I missed out on?

They actually are pretty generous with how much time you have to finish everything. In Chapter 1 I went to every map and explored every cranny and beat every fight and I still had like 45 days left. In later chapters, I am likewise thorough but waste even more time travelling and revisiting areas. Still, mucho time. I'm not shy with the resting and still have more time than I've needed to explore the whole available map. Often have to just "skip days" in the kingdom menu, sometimes a week at a time. At the end of chapter 3/4 you have almost a couple years of free time depending on how fast you finish up the main story quest for that chapter. I think you'd have to deliberately try to run out of time, I am glacial. 185 hours and haven't started chapter 5 yet...

Mulva posted:

robo lore

That's actually something I can get into. I'm starting to really dig pathfinder. I loved 3.5 in videogame form but never played in PnP. Pathfinder just seems superior, period. A coworker of mine is getting interested too, we are both especially interested in having witch available to us.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Grapplejack posted:

Being lawful is actually great fun and more people should do it

Kingmaker was fun because, much like all of my D&D sessions, I was the only person playing LG among a party of neutrals and chaotics

Kingmaker is the first time I've tried a Lawful playthrough. Also my first time trying Evil. It's been a lot of fun and as far as I can tell Lawful Evil is literally just being a capitalist so it's been surprisingly easy to roleplay.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

FuzzySlippers posted:

I enjoyed the kingdom management too. I also like having time limitations in games to plan around (like Xcom 2) which seem to make a lot of people stress out and hate poo poo.

It's kind of crazy, I think it comes down to same thing wrt RtwP vs Turn Based. You are born and your body is assigned one of those preferences. It doesn't actually matter what the time limit is. If the time limit was "until heat death of the universe" there'd still be someone who booted up the game, noticed a timer, and they just run away forever immediately. The first time scientists noted this phenomena was Majora's Mask. 15% of players who they tested literally were unable to hear the explanation that the game isn't actually just a 3 day limit, their brains can only process terror and anxiety when confronted with an in-game clock. In the FEMA Death Camps any game with an in-game clock is forbidden, even games without timers that contain depictions of clocks.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
Harrim was a pretty mediocre cleric and also seemed to love to die first, Tristian does cleric much better.

What kind of Sorc were you wanting to be? I ran with a Sylvan for the Varn DLC because I just like summons.
https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post25 This build and all of their others are really good.
edit: Just saw the spreadsheet with regular sorc, oops.


Worth checking out for your party too, at least for Valerie. I knew I wanted her to tank but wasn't sure how to build one using DnD's rules. Turns out the best tricks to building a tank are fairly unintuitive. Turns out Monk(trad)/Alchemist(vivsectionist)/Rogue(thug) all have extremely powerful low-level boosts that can push a tank to the next level. Monk gives you AC boost and allows you to fight defensive style with almost no penalties +better AC. Alchemist gives you a mutagen to increase a base stat by a bunch for a long time, and some sneak attack die I think. The build only has 1 level of stalwart defender!

I've had many fights where everyone gets wiped except Val and neither her nor the enemy could hit each other unless critting. She might not kill often, but she'll rarely ever die. Plus with outflank, she's another free attack everything your rogue or whatever crits. Then again, I'm playing as Monster Tactician with animal companion so I have lots of teamwork feat users so outflank is very strong for my mob.

https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post16

Khanstant fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Mar 17, 2020

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
Fought Ilthuliak last night, took many retries. I had my whole party buffed to hell and back, but was still struggling to hit him often enough to do much, would get him close, but then someone would get 200 damage or everyone besides Valeria would be running around feared and couldn't get close enough to dispel or whatever. Had to leave came back with different spell loadout for Octavia and some others, namely greater dispels and fingers of death. I was lucky to have some extra fingers in inventory via scrolls but it still took a few reloads for my death-fingering to take hold. Felt a bit cheesey in the end but it was either that, a thousand more reloads, or just coming back when it was easier.

edit: This Blackmoore fight is even harder! I assume it's possible to win this fight with him alive? I was able to win but he died. so I want to try again. This fight doesn't allow you to pre-buff and you start surrounded. Pretty vicious fight but I'm glad it's here.

Nevermind! If you can keep him alive for the first few rounds he takes care of himself handily. Buffing the important stuff once he survived helped, and I got a good outflank on the first hard demon you have to pop.

Khanstant fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Mar 18, 2020

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
I've been able to cover every inch of the map available to me with plenty of time to spare to do kingdom stuff aplenty. Plus if you resolve the main Act quests early enough you get like 150 days of just time to kill you can spend exploring or building up kingdom things. I'm at a point now with 100+ days and basically nothing left on the map to go to so lots of time to get my kingdom maxed out.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
I went to see if I sprung for alpha access and set up my backer portal and did not. I went to upgrade and remembered why not, 99 just too rich for my blood. At the same time, there's a part of me struggling with "is 12 more dollars worth it to get my name in the credits and a few more of a mystery "special item?" I should just wait and not spoil myself anyway.

Can someone with beta access just tell me on a scale of "hail satan" to "live deliciously" is it to play as a Lich.

edit: Oh, you can add alpha access for just 15 bucks as an addon. 43 bucks still isnt a bad deal for this game... hmmm

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Guildenstern Mother posted:

Is there a good mod for making hiring mercs cheaper? I'm level 6 and they want 18k per. I just want a monk and a druid to pal around with.

I vaguely recall a mod with the ability to recruit them at their initial price, but it might just be easier using bag of tricks or something to cheat yourself 18k gold. Later on you have more gold than you know what to do with, it's really a non-factor in the game besides early in exactly your situation, no harm in just cheating in some of the gold you won't be able to spend later.

The best thing about 5E is their Paladin change, you don't have to be Lawful Good and you don't even need to believe in a god necessarily. I'm playing a big red tiefling Communist Paladin using the Order of the Common Man. He draws his strength from his belief and faith in the rights and power of the common people. Find Steed is the other amazing 5E Paladin thing, probably a little OP but so fun.

edit: So there wasn't any easy way I saw to remove the beta access from my cart on their back portal so I went ahead and just bought it.

edit: drat, I was dead set on being a Witch but some of these new classes and their kits sound really cool. Cavalier is like a mounted paladin kind of thing but the subkits really open up some other mounted fighting types. They also get mount at level 1, curious if it's worth dipping into for a lot of classes, like Alchemist is.

Bloodragers sound like gishy barbarians and there's even a summoning version.

Oooh Monks get a mounted kit too!

Oracles seem like kind of cool new-age hippie clerics, i like the idea of serving gods as it suits your ideals and not the other way around.

Skalds are like violent bards who play metal that makes people rage? Devil Dancer!!! Classic devil-dealing magic/talent trade yess.Or just be a toot toot horn guy!?!

Slayer is some kind of roguey-assassin-hunter thing, one subkit throwing in some god0agent elements.

drat, i wasnt prepared what to choose what to choose aa

Khanstant fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Oct 15, 2020

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

FuzzySlippers posted:

So how's the evil side in the sequel? Is it interesting?

I always want to try an evil run in games but it feels like the dumb rear end option instead of selfish or tearing down existing power structures e.g. kicking puppies because evil and then doing the same quests as a good character but you say grumpy mean things when you turn it in. Also you refuse to care about anyone even the people who have been helping your for years and it benefits you to at least lie and stay chummy with them to properly use them but since evil I have to say pointless lovely things.

It's going to be a little different in this because even if you're full-blown evil, you're also still totally dedicated to eradicating the demons, at least from what I've seen so far. In the full game I plan on being a Lich and going full-baddie, I only half-committed to it in Kingmaker because I needed evil for the good summons but I basically had to give that up and just freeze my alignment because I kept doing either Chaotic Good or Lawful Good things, oops.

In the very first part of the sequel I actually initially sided with the evil chick, actually not thinking about quite how evil she was, just more pragmatic, but then she reveals herself to be totes evil, but she's also wanting to submit to you and serve you because she just likes to always be on the strongest side. She's proposing you to keep her as a friend and he will do some hosed up poo poo to occasionally make a strong monster soldier out of this community of "mongrelmen" but mostly just killing them or making them into something horrible. Side note, I think being a tiefling or dhampir will be interesting in this game.

Khanstant fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Oct 16, 2020

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
I'm a little worried about our companion selection. I don't like having to use mercenaries, but the game isn't really providing us with some seemingly crucial party tools. No buffbot full-arcane caster, not really a good skillmonkey around, too many divine casters and overlapping classes. Kind of feeling like my PC should fill in those gaps, but with soooo many exciting archetypes to try out, I would really hope for the companions to cover our basic bases so you feel more free to try out some of the more unusual classes.

My hype for playing as a witch is all but dead, we get a companion to play with as one, but the class itself just seems kind of bad? Just a lovely wizard spell selection + some hexes. hexes are something you need to micromanage and it's kind of hard to tell when to use one and how much benefit you really feel from it.
Is Scroll Savant any good, seems you trade a few wizardy things for some slight bonuses to scrolls? I mean, I've already used more scrolls than I ever did in PK, but not sure how much I care to go out of my way to stock up on the good offensive scrolls.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
Totally could be off-base, this is still early in development and I'm still early in the game. Witch is all new to me so I've got a lot to learn. Really I probably just don't like my current party comp but I don't have any choice in it yet anyway so I really am not informed enough to make that fuss yet after sloppily spoiling the others for myself.

I might need to start over anyway, got an unshakeable bug on my PC anyway.

Khanstant fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Oct 16, 2020

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
It's refreshing how focused the campaign is. Like Kingmaker you've got you main thrusts, but also a lot of the time you're dealing with people who got their own problems that might not be relevant to yours, or you're picking and choosing which things to pursue or give a poo poo about. These games in general there's a lot of the "main quest" but also "do whateva ya want." This is very focused, there's a really imperative important thing right now, it's loving with everyone and everyone's mindset and if you don't care about this demon poo poo, why are you here, this is the thing about the demons.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Simone Magus posted:

I mean yes and no. I killed the stag lord with 70 days leftover and did a lot of screwing around, and the rest of the game is kind of more forgiving ultimately. Like yeah The Thing has a deadline but also there are a billion little things to waste time on and you're kinda encouraged to do so

Oh trust me, I do All of the Things in KM. I don't dislike that sort of game structure either. It's just Wrath is a little more directly focused on the crusades, which makes sense, and I like it too.

I've also noticed that many of the Lawful choices and Evil choices aren't just relegated to "good/bad." Even early on, I've seen a couple "evil" options that were either perfectly sensible things to say or do, or were the kind of thing where it might be evil to just play judge-dredd on the street, but this guy is a fucker and deserves it anyway imo. Some of the Lawful options have been really absolutist about the law, really showing the dissonance between law and what is Right. That's cool and I'm only in the prologue/first act.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
That's good to hear, I tuned into KM way late, well after the enhanced had already come out. Love when writers take criticism and act upon them.

Also a quick props to the just-started-to-be-implemented tutorial system. There's a room early on to introduce you to swarms and it's already a lot better of a teaching area than the spiders cave in PK. It even scans your party for abilities or items they have to deal with the menace.

Weird thing I was thinknig of suggesting on the alpha forums, but would y'all like to see the dice rolls? Like, we can see the math and results but I think I would also enjoy seeeing dice being rolled, even in big chaotic battles a stream of dice sims off to the side, just giving an idea of all the rolls going into it all? Not that we'd stop and peek at them, just seeing a visualization of them as they are made.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

cuntman.net posted:

kingmaker already has that

in turn based mode :smug:

Does it really? I mean, that's cool but I can't imagine a scenario where I'd change a game from rtwp to turn-based on purpose anymore than I'd drive a nail through my dick. (not kinkshaming, I'm glad there's a mode for you sadists out there) I'm looking basically for something like a dice-rolling particle effect shunted off to the side.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

chaosapiant posted:

Being able to flip from turn based to RtWP is awesome and Kingmaker is screaming to be played in turn based. It plays so much better. And this is coming from a dude who loves RtWP and generally prefers it to turn based. Kingmaker in turn based mode is the best DND simulator you can get since Temple of Elemental Evil.

Ideal DnD simulator I wouldn't be touching any of my companions' actions at all ever. That's my primary issue with turn-based, having to micromanage every single motion as if every unit was my PC and every party member just being me doing a puppet show for myself.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
So one thing I love about testing a game is doing poo poo I probably wouldn't if it was "for real." This time I did something kind of badass, but then goofed myself hard.

You got a place and this guy is like "lookit, buncha demon boiz down there, you need to go tell your boss and get help. I aint helping you if you just jump in." I wanted to scout ahead, but failed an atheletics check and crashed in view of all the demon boiz. I won the fight with only one person getting bloodied. Cool! Then in this little area there is an intractable pillar, so I clicked it... and rolled a pillar over that crushed my entire team to death instantly. Whoops!

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
I've also been a bit strapped. Less beef boys and bags of holding too so lots of those annoying 10 pounder 100gold items are still on the streets cluttering my save file. I've had enough to buy a couple weak magic items but both times nearly wiped my gold reserves.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
Winter isn't in the alpha yet.

I just got my first Mythic level but just had to choose generic Mythic Hero. This system is still a little confusing but I got to pick some cool feats/powers. When my mount works again he will be much stronger than last time my mount worked. I think in the full-game you'll really need to know ahead what path you're going for and how it will work with your character, I think I cut myself out of one already.

I'm really curious what will make the best necromancer type for a Lich. Most of the undead-related classes focus on kicking their rear end, not many ways to summon em.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
I'm at 220, still poking around what I think is it the penultimate chapter. However I tend to play these games very slowly, I go everywhere, I do everything, I go back checking everywhere because I'm paranoid I didn't do a thing and sometimes I'll spend an hour on a not-even-hard fight for no reason. I've also beat the DLCs.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Kobal2 posted:

Oh, my bad, I was sure White Haired (which is cool) was in the feature plan, but I was probably confusing with Hagbound (which is terrible, bad, awful, my god WHY ?!).
So, yeah, really no way to int-to-dmg before modders sink their claws into it.

I love the flavour of Hagbound but... What are you supposed to do with this class? Dragon Disciple gets away with parts of this concept by making the character actually useful in melee. Hagbound its like, "ya get some claws and a strength bonus, uhhh, hope u figure something out"

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Kobal2 posted:

Same about Draconic bloodline sorcs and similar... I'm not sure who at Paizo *really* likes the idea of full casters going into melee with their bare hands, but someone at HQ needs to have a quiet sit down with them.

At least the bloodlines are a "mere" opportunity cost, but the Hagbound giving up half her class features for the privilege ? And saddled with a spell list that doesn't include any combat buffs besides Mage Armor ? I mean, for an NPC concept that'd focus on overpowering starving peasant children maybe, but...

Full caster going melee with their hands could really be badass, they just commit to it. Like, the Witch from Left 2 Dead 2. Just this terrifying witchy creep who will run up on ya and just start shredding you to bits. It just needs a lot of mechanical support to make it work with these OP systems. Like Monk is a great example, they throw a thousand features at the class to make the punch-man concept worthwhile. Witch is already kind of in an awkward space, pulling somewhat arbitrarily from random existing spellbook spells, giving any of that up is a handicap where the tradeoff needs to be more drastic. Witch is apparently a very tricky thing to turn into PnP rules.

Captain Oblivious posted:

Draconic Bloodline will be a lot more exciting in Wrath! ...Because Bloodragers exist. Which are basically Barbarians but better in every way because they get sorcerer bloodline features and caster progression.

Draconic bloodline and the claws are great for Bloodragers. Primalist Bloodragers who take Animal Totem Greater and Dragon Bloodline put out a comical amount of natural attacks.

This I like the sound of. Bloodrager looked interesting but I've never been great at building/managing/understanding barbs outside of companions. Even in KP I kind of just copied a weird InEffect build for Amario and mostly just sidelined her.

There were some dope natural attack weapons in KP, never had anyone to use them, I think a few characters have maybe some kind of occasional bite attack from alchemist/vivisectionist, can't remember. Actually, I rarely use Regongar but IIRC I think I gave him several draconic levels. Dragon Disciple is a really cool class, I really like that sort of thing. I wasn't crazy when it went away but weird Dinosaur people became a core race but with less dragony features than the class did.

I would be totally interested in a character who goes all in with natural attacks and stuff. Hmmm... assuming a very demon-heavy game throughout, how do slashy biters fare against these hellish jerks?

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Captain Oblivious posted:

Summons are mostly kinda bad in my experience sadly.

Animal Companions are their own category and are very very good.

I'm having trouble understanding why? Is Kingmaker my Monster Tactician could solve a lot of encounters for my party by everyone doing nothing while my summons did all the work. Did something change in Wrath to make summons bad?

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
I guess I had just taken for granted how much stronger MT made the summons. The teamwork feat thing also is a huge boon to my frontline fighters IIRC. It's a very cool class and maybe a little more thematically relevant to Wrath but I wouldn't want to play Wrath with the exact same build as I used in KP. This time I want to go all out on some kind of mounted build.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007
If nothing else its just really nice to have a few frost giants or whatever as meat shields. Full disclosure is I haven't beaten PK, right on the cusp of starting the final chapter.

I've heard some grumbles about this, but I think the spoiler-free trick I gleaned was to just have hella resurrection or g restoration scrolls?

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Xerophyte posted:

This is maybe a little spoilery but the thing about the final chapter is that you will fight a lot of enemies that automatically use the following ability on every member of your party once per round:

Freedom of Movement and Holy Aura were both very useful. I'd almost go so far as to say Freedom of Movement is mandatory on the higher difficulties.

Okay good to know. So far I know I have basically every single scroll in the game so far, and most of my inventory weight is potions n scrolls I think. My main squad seems to have the tools for this, glad to go in prepared.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Cobalt-60 posted:

Being lawful is useful for kingdom management because you can put up bulletin boards (+2 to your advisors).

Most Evil choices I saw involved screwing over someone/killing someone useful/destroying relationships, so i never took them.

Tried being a Lawful Evil Monster Tactician all game but it was so hard to stay evil I had to use a mod to just freeze my alignment. Some Lawful Evil options were close to "pickably evil" but too much of was just evil-stupid, felt like there needs to be a more strategic evil option. Like good ol' Lich-Maegar. That's definitely the best evil branch of the game, something I'd be tempted to do on a good character despite the judgement the games puts on you about it. Way I see it, them folks is dead, would be weird to bring them back to life, I'm keeping the soul jars to sell for some extra scratch. gently caress your soul, I really just don't care about them even in settings where they are supposedly real. And who am I to not let some badass from olde times inhabit some dead dyngus' body? Ooh he talks tough about taking over the world, so what, who doesn't? He's some lonely incel from thousands of years ago, not too worried about his lovely antique magic, plus also I literally kicked his rear end already not even max-level.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

frajaq posted:

speaking of swarms Owlcat really doesnt want a repeat of how people got filtered by that early spider cave filled with swarms in release Kingmaker lol



I loved the tooltip-updates I experienced in the beta. Even when you know the solution to a problem, it's actually helpful for the pop-up to do more than just tell you something: It also gives you the/a solution and button to click for it.

Lord Koth posted:

Note that rat swarms are far easier to fight than spider swarms in the early game regardless, even if them being swarms still make them a nuisance. That's because swarms made up of tiny creatures (aka rats) still take half damage from slashing/piercing and full damage from bludgeoning, as opposed to being completely immune to all weapon damage like swarms made up of fine/diminutive creatures (aka spiders).

Does Pathfinder just not have any kind of "stomp?" If a spider swarm was real, it'd be super easy to squish it with your foot... then they crawl on your legs or boots you squish those two. I've squished spiders again my body before, who hasn't, so it's weird there's all this rigamarole about not hitting them with weapons or whatever... but I got two hands and feet, why aren't we just mashing the spider swarm into spider jam?

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Zurai posted:

Exactly. Swarms take up 100 square feet of space

Okay, that made it click for me. I was thinking more like a mass of critters making a cartoon cloud at your feet, in which case the danger of stomping would be slipping into the corpse jelly you're making. But yeah, visualizing them as square feet swinging their nasty,
wiggling toes at you and pinching you even as you swat them away makes it clear for me.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

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Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

Nephthys posted:

character review/spoilers

drat, too many interesting character it's going to be hard to choose... whether to use any of them whatsoever or just go around raising enemies as minions as Lichqueen.

Agnostalgia posted:

Some of these classes they added for Wrath make no sense to me. Like can someone explain why you would ever make a Warpriest? It's supposed to be a fighter/cleric hybrid class, but it has the same attack bonus and HP as a Cleric does! It seems like all you get in return for losing domains and a third of your spell list is, like, martial weapons proficiency?

Well for one thing, everyone's been or had a cleric around for a thousand years. If nothing else, Warpriest's name alone is a nice change of pace from the one class there's probably never been a cRPG without. Second I think that class gets other little fighter features and feats to make you a better magic-sword person. Cleric is still better but hey some people really want to smash face with the power of god and anime on their side.

I do agree there are ton of classes that seem to have only granular changes, or there's some quirky little thing not readily apparent that makes it actually drastically better/worse in some way.

There's a Witch subclass that gives you crazy claws and like fighting-hair but nothing else you'd need to be effective with using them in combat.

Barbarians seems to have a sublass to let them be a Barbarian version of any other class, which is just fun to have around I think. Same for some of these classes that are Bard-but-cooler.

The more the merrier, even if they aren't all mechanically equal. Just wish we had 100 party limit size so we can really explore the full range in a play through.

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