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Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


wtf Gaspy, what do you mean you wouldn't use "sussing out" there,

Bifauxnen posted:

got enough reasons there, bud?

I like Asiina sussing this out and might vote TMM later, but if it turns out to be wrong this is where I'd look first for scum trying to get things rolling.

Asphyxious posted:

This confused me as I don’t think I’d use “sussing out” to mean this at all. “Sussing out” would be more if Asiina was uncertain of anything/everything, whereas she actually seems pretty certain already. 

Asiina is casing TMM and poking him and voting him. She is playing Mafia, by trying to suss out his alignment.

Just because you think no one should be described as "sussing out" a specific thing, that it can only describe someone completely uncertain in general, don't go projecting something I didn't mean. Or habe I totally learned this wrong as a former Yank? Is "sussing out" as a phrase never actually used in such a way, to suss out a particular fact instead of just being generally confused?

I will hold you to your linguistic integrity.

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Asphyxious
Jun 25, 2012

I knew the consequences. But... I cannot apologize. I will not. If I should apologize or feel regret, then everything would have been for naught. I will never defeat the scum if I do.


It’s pure semantics but “sussing out” really isn’t “placing a vote and making an absolute claim”, sussing out is like, asking probing questions or making statements and seeing how they react.

Asiina has travelled past “sussing out”.

George Kansas
Sep 1, 2008

preface all my posts with this


Bifauxnen posted:

yeah well you read bad :colbert:

I think Asiina sounds like she's "sussing out" what she thinks of TMM, which implies that despite being sure she wants to vote him, she does not in fact actually know his alignment. This looks townie of her, regardless of whether it ends up right or wrong.

Okay, so your definition of sussing someone out is just casing them? Casing someone while not... being too sure, as to imply they might already know someone's alignment? This is something that you can say but I don't really see how this is distinguishable from "I like Asiina's case and might vote later." In which case your immediate hedge is still very very bad.

Bifauxnen posted:

I'm not convinced yet that it's worth a vote yet myself. While I see why TMM reads as weird to her, I also find it a bit unlikely that a scum would come out swinging that fast with such blatant gambler's fallacy nonsense to make themselves look that silly. If nothing else comes up though, it'd certainly be good enough for D1.

Even this is hedgey. You don't say anything about why TMM is scum in this post! You just say you understand why Asiina thinks he's scum. Why is it worth a vote if your only thoughts about him are that he's unlikely to be scum?

Bifauxnen posted:

And if that is what happens, and it turns out TMM is town, I think that vote of IP's does sound a bit overwrought, like scum trying to get a bandwagom rolling. The "chain lunch" you are assuming for me would depend on a lot of factors between now and then: the TMM lunch happening, him being town, IP not sounding any townier by then, nothing else grabbing me more by then, etc. I would certainly want to NOT pursue this further if he comes up scum.

But nice try.

oh and you just keep on going for a few more posts, don't you.

yeah this is bad.

##vote BK

Sounds like something we can bring up tomorrow, not today. Which is the whole reason chain lynches are bad: because at best it's fake content that doesn't matter when you don't know what the D1/N1 flips are. At worst, it's you setting up something pretty sinister as scum. I understand it's only a pseudo-chain lynch because you're not saying "we should execute X if Y flips town" but it's very much still in that territory in a bad way, imo!

I get that your whole thing is to be really combative but I'm not trying to be all "oh you just keep going don't you!" to you, just say who I think is scum. I find the extra posturing of "nice try" and "yeah this is bad" to read as scum upset that they just got nailed. I'm very comfortable with my vote.

George Kansas
Sep 1, 2008

preface all my posts with this


Bifauxnen posted:

I don't see what's hard to follow

BK wants to know what I thought about TMM, now I have told him. I like Asiina's effort to case him, but don't agree with the case yet. IP's vote sounds a bit much, like he's trying to overexplain why he's joining in. But hey, for all I know IP just agrees with Asiina in a legit way, and TMM could even be scum. So I sure don't feel like voting IP yet either.

But if TMM got lunched off this and flipped town, that IP post would be where I start looking back. Not "IP is definite scum now, chain lunch time", it is something I would want to remember to look back at and assess to see if he looks the scummiest out of whoever voted him. A lot of other more substantial things could come up by the end of D1 too, that might take precedence!

So when I said "this is where I'd look first for scum" I meant precisely and exactly what I actually said. It is a note to self, or for others to notice on their rereads if I am gone on D2.

I legitimately still don't know what you think of TMM! It sounds like you have a pretty towny read on him but would still be comfortable voting for him if it came to that?? like, you say you find him unlikely to be scum, but you find asiina towny because you find her case genuine. so then... maybe both of them could be town? but still, the TMM vote is "good enough" for D1?? I just don't get it!

George Kansas
Sep 1, 2008

preface all my posts with this


Asphyxious posted:

It’s pure semantics but “sussing out” really isn’t “placing a vote and making an absolute claim”, sussing out is like, asking probing questions or making statements and seeing how they react.

Asiina has travelled past “sussing out”.

fwiw this is exactly how i originally parsed sussing out, before bif accused me of not properly parsing it

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


ugh Gaspy's style of response was annoying to quote but it was a lot more convenient to read, so I'm gonna copy it here.

BottleKnight posted:

Okay, so your definition of sussing someone out is just casing them? Casing someone while not... being too sure, as to imply they might already know someone's alignment? Pretty much, I got the impression Asiina was playing the exact same type of town play I've seen her do in several games recently. She's working things out and actively pressing on things, and the fact that I described this townie casing behaviour as "sussing out" and that word choice is somehow perceived as scummy kind of irks me.

This is something that you can say but I don't really see how this is distinguishable from "I like Asiina's case and might vote later." In which case your immediate hedge is still very very bad. The part that's distinguishable is I don't agree with her case as it stands, but I like her making the case. If there was absolutely nothing else better than this case of Asiina's going by the time D1 ended, I wouldn't mind supporting it.

Even this is hedgey. You don't say anything about why TMM is scum in this post! You just say you understand why Asiina thinks he's scum. Why is it worth a vote if your only thoughts about him are that he's unlikely to be scum? imo it's not worth a vote rn, which is why I haven't voted him

Sounds like something we can bring up tomorrow, not today. Which is the whole reason chain lynches are bad: because at best it's fake content that doesn't matter when you don't know what the D1/N1 flips are. At worst, it's you setting up something pretty sinister as scum. I understand it's only a pseudo-chain lynch because you're not saying "we should execute X if Y flips town" but it's very much still in that territory in a bad way, imo! Well, I thought IP's post sounded bad, like he was maybe over justifying his vote. So I wanna point that out. But if TMM flips scum, it's not really that relevant anymore now is it.

I get that your whole thing is to be really combative but I'm not trying to be all "oh you just keep going don't you!" to you, just say who I think is scum. that's... nice? I thought I was the one saying that about you :v:

I find the extra posturing of "nice try" and "yeah this is bad" to read as scum upset that they just got nailed. I'm very comfortable with my vote. yeah we haven't played a whole lot of games together, have we

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


BottleKnight posted:

I legitimately still don't know what you think of TMM! It sounds like you have a pretty towny read on him but would still be comfortable voting for him if it came to that?? like, you say you find him unlikely to be scum, but you find asiina towny because you find her case genuine. so then... maybe both of them could be town? but still, the TMM vote is "good enough" for D1?? I just don't get it!

you just described it perfectly so why are you acting so loving confused

Asphyxious
Jun 25, 2012

I knew the consequences. But... I cannot apologize. I will not. If I should apologize or feel regret, then everything would have been for naught. I will never defeat the scum if I do.


Bifauxnen posted:

ugh Gaspy's style of response was annoying to quote but it was a lot more convenient to read, so I'm gonna copy it here.

I got the idea from Beet, it’s probably the best way to effortpost on the phone.

George Kansas
Sep 1, 2008

preface all my posts with this


Bifauxnen posted:

Pretty much, I got the impression Asiina was playing the exact same type of town play I've seen her do in several games recently. She's working things out and actively pressing on things, and the fact that I described this townie casing behaviour as "sussing out" and that word choice is somehow perceived as scummy kind of irks me.

Hmm. Did I call you scummy solely for your word choice or did I call you scummy because your word choice indicated a mischaracterization of what Asiina had actually done up to that point? Asphyxious says it well

Asphyxious posted:

It’s pure semantics but “sussing out” really isn’t “placing a vote and making an absolute claim”, sussing out is like, asking probing questions or making statements and seeing how they react.

Asiina has travelled past “sussing out”.

Bif, if this really just is semantics and that's all you meant, that's fine, in which case the hedging is still bad!

Bifauxnen posted:

The part that's distinguishable is I don't agree with her case as it stands, but I like her making the case. If there was absolutely nothing else better than this case of Asiina's going by the time D1 ended, I wouldn't mind supporting it.

Okay... hmm. I find "I like Asiina sussing this out and might vote TMM later" and "I don't agree with her case as it stands, but I like her making the case. If there was absolutely nothing else better than this case of Asiina's going by the time D1 ended, I wouldn't mind supporting it" to be quite different characterizations of what you think about Asiina's case on TMM. The first statement sounds like you like the case and might vote, the second statement sounds like you don't like the case and will only vote as a last resort. I feel quite comfortable with my vote.

Bifauxnen posted:

you just described it perfectly so why are you acting so loving confused

Because your original statement does not align with your new one!

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


BottleKnight posted:

Bif, if this really just is semantics and that's all you meant, that's fine, in which case the hedging is still bad!
yes let's deal with just the hedging then

Okay... hmm. I find "I like Asiina sussing this out and might vote TMM later" and "I don't agree with her case as it stands, but I like her making the case. If there was absolutely nothing else better than this case of Asiina's going by the time D1 ended, I wouldn't mind supporting it" to be quite different characterizations of what you think about Asiina's case on TMM. The first statement sounds like you like the case and might vote, the second statement sounds like you don't like the case and will only vote as a last resort. I feel quite comfortable with my vote.

Because your original statement does not align with your new one!

well until we started going at it, Asiina's case was literally the only thing going. It's still quite early on D1. I don't buy the case yet, so I was hoping something better would come along to bite into. But I think the case was made in good faith, so I wouldn't mind supporting Asiina in voting TMM if I could not in fact find something better. This whole thing here is certainly a lot meatier now though.

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


BottleKnight posted:

Because your original statement does not align with your new one!

this is why I think you're scum, btw. Maybe if you keep saying that enough times, people will just not bother reading all the quoteblocks, and decide this is true.

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida



Bif the only way I could have justified that vote any less would be to just vote without giving any reasoning and then you'd be casing me for that instead

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


IcePhoenix posted:

Bif the only way I could have justified that vote any less would be to just vote without giving any reasoning and then you'd be casing me for that instead

uh huh

jeez I'm not even actually casing you

yet

Social Studies 3rd Period
Oct 31, 2012

THUNDERDOME LOSER





Goodness gracious! And here I thought I was a regular ole' chatterbox, but you've all just been rattling away plenty while I've been away, huh? Now, all I'll say is that I dunno about some of this. It's been a hot second or two since I've played an actual game of Mafia, to put it one way, and it's my first game around here, so beg your pardon if I'm misinterpreting anything...

On that note I did wanna slip into the conversation for a moment and ask for a slight bit of clarification to make sure I'm following along properly: with the concept of chain-lynching brought up, I assume via context that's the idea of a vote (duh) and then going off ('chaining') the results/flip against those who voted? I've looked around for the term a little but could only find it being used / not an exact definition, and it's not a term I'm exactly familiar with.

Thanks! :v:

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



IcePhoenix posted:

I agree with Asiina and am willing to put my vote where my post is. Plus what they did to beet was just mean. Also, gently caress the Cubs :colbert:

##vote TMM

what did they do to me?

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



the name thing? oh yeah totally rude :colbert:

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


Social Studies 3rd Period posted:

with the concept of chain-lynching brought up, I assume via context that's the idea of a vote (duh) and then going off ('chaining') the results/flip against those who voted? I've looked around for the term a little but could only find it being used / not an exact definition, and it's not a term I'm exactly familiar with.

Thanks! :v:

sounds like you got it right.

More strictly speaking, a chain-lunch is someone saying "if Person X flips a certain way, we should lunch Person Y next."

You may note that my post is a very far cry from this, but BK has shifted the goalposts and stopped mentioning chain-lunching entirely. And instead of pausing to reflect on just how much he's read into my post all by himself, he's staying the course all: "well you are still hedging and that's bad"

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Asphyxious posted:

It’s pure semantics but “sussing out” really isn’t “placing a vote and making an absolute claim”, sussing out is like, asking probing questions or making statements and seeing how they react.

Asiina has travelled past “sussing out”.

i'm catching up on this and reading this and while i agree 100% with your definition of sussing out, i can also see the context bif would use it in. bif places a vote to put pressure on people and see how they react. that's bif 'sussing' people out.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Asphyxious posted:

I got the idea from Beet, it’s probably the best way to effortpost on the phone.

and i stole it from either max or anpu

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Bifauxnen posted:

this is why I think you're scum, btw. Maybe if you keep saying that enough times, people will just not bother reading all the quoteblocks, and decide this is true.

i'm not getting that sense bottleknight is making fake content, the deconstruction of your post seems fine for a d1 case, one i wasn't putting great stock in until you say the above and then here you say:

Bifauxnen posted:

sounds like you got it right.

More strictly speaking, a chain-lunch is someone saying "if Person X flips a certain way, we should lunch Person Y next."

You may note that my post is a very far cry from this, but BK has shifted the goalposts and stopped mentioning chain-lunching entirely. And instead of pausing to reflect on just how much he's read into my post all by himself, he's staying the course all: "well you are still hedging and that's bad"

he mentioned it four of his posts ago, in those intervening three posts he's responding to your points. he doesn't have to reiterate every part of his case in every single post to you. this comes off really odd and super defensive. it's like you're now trying to discredit him by throwing every little thing you can at him

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



scanning back through and

Bifauxnen posted:

it feels like scum bullshit, like he's already made up his mind he's going to read everything in the most unfavourable way possible to create a case, and transform a note for later into a whole narrative about chain lunches.

sorta ironic in light of that

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



hang on better get ready

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


nah thanks Beet I was about to be deeply disturbed that you were the one who understood me

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Bifauxnen posted:

nah thanks Beet I was about to be deeply disturbed that you were the one who understood me

oh okay....

https://i.imgur.com/KvEVJ9s.gifv

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


anyway, the world makes sense again now

except I still don't know how can you read me saying "ok you wanna know what I think of TMM, here is what I think of TMM", then him going "but wait?? It sounds like you're saying (insert exactly what I just said) but I still don't know what you think about TMM?? I'm so confused??" and not think that's faking content, I didn't even do the double question marks for hyperbole, his post is literally like that

Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.


BottleKnight posted:

It reads to me as a scum saying “I might join this case, but only later, to make it clear that if it’s a mislynch it was NOT my fault!”

—-

Well I suppose if bif is scum she already knows it would be a mislynch, which only makes the hedge more calculating.

(phoneposting until further notice)

##vote bk

BKs case on Bif feels faked to me, like he decided to call her scum and then reverse-engineered a reason. I’m not sure I buy that anyone would think Bif’s early d1 vote on TMM was “calculated” and required hedging, and I disagree with his assessment that his not knowing her opinion there (again, on early d1) is suspicious at all.

Asphyxious
Jun 25, 2012

I knew the consequences. But... I cannot apologize. I will not. If I should apologize or feel regret, then everything would have been for naught. I will never defeat the scum if I do.


hambeet posted:

and i stole it from either max or anpu

My face has never twisted so hard mid sentence.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



TMM, MMT... Coincidence? I think not.

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


sweet I was wondering when you'd have time to chime in, MT!

uh, just to correct you though, I never did in fact vote for TMM.

I did vote for MMT for a bit though :v:

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Asphyxious posted:

My face has never twisted so hard mid sentence.

Come on, I thought we liked Max?

Asphyxious
Jun 25, 2012

I knew the consequences. But... I cannot apologize. I will not. If I should apologize or feel regret, then everything would have been for naught. I will never defeat the scum if I do.


hambeet posted:

Come on, I thought we liked Max?

Lol you know what I mean.

Asphyxious
Jun 25, 2012

I knew the consequences. But... I cannot apologize. I will not. If I should apologize or feel regret, then everything would have been for naught. I will never defeat the scum if I do.


I’ve been a bit distracted today, did this game open when only Aussies were around? I feel like I’ve seen the same 4 highly predictable names over and over and not much else.

Must say this is the chattiest I’ve seen Hal so that’s a plus at least.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



"Quut yer yabberin Jaspy, tell us what's yer take on all this talk of votin' n lynchin'?"

Asphyxious
Jun 25, 2012

I knew the consequences. But... I cannot apologize. I will not. If I should apologize or feel regret, then everything would have been for naught. I will never defeat the scum if I do.


hambeet posted:

"Quut yer yabberin Jaspy, tell us what's yer take on all this talk of votin' n lynchin'?"

Honestly no strong anything at the moment. I keep flinching thinking slapfights or aggro is about to kick off but everyone’s being pretty reasonable which then makes me suspicious but I’m trying not to read too much into that.

In bif vs bk I feel better about bif. Her posts were harder to parse and the defence of semantics wasn’t great, but I think her content was more accurate to the situation. Wouldn’t vote either of them at this point.

Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.


Bifauxnen posted:

sweet I was wondering when you'd have time to chime in, MT!

uh, just to correct you though, I never did in fact vote for TMM.

I did vote for MMT for a bit though :v:

Haha fair, I usually go out of my way to mention when I’m phoneposting because I’m usually skimming instead of deep reading.

Max
Nov 30, 2002



I have important thoughts about sussing things out, but don't feel like sharing them.

I think bk comes out better from that argument, only because I found my initial TMM post paper thin in terms of content. I like Asiina going with it and putting her money where her mouth is, I like people going "wow hmm Asiina may be on to something here" far less since they all hold back their votes. That was mostly Hal & Bif from memory, so reading along, I agreed with BK's initial call out.

Anyway, this post caught my eye because I cannot figure out why they would bring up hypothetically be cased instead unless they had a guilty mindset, and would like IcePheonix to expand on this.

IcePhoenix posted:

Bif the only way I could have justified that vote any less would be to just vote without giving any reasoning and then you'd be casing me for that instead

Max
Nov 30, 2002



Also TMM should come back and rejoin the conversation.

Max
Nov 30, 2002



Asphyxious posted:

My face has never twisted so hard mid sentence.

Wow!

Asphyxious
Jun 25, 2012

I knew the consequences. But... I cannot apologize. I will not. If I should apologize or feel regret, then everything would have been for naught. I will never defeat the scum if I do.



Look, I have a lot of love for Anpu but I was losing my loving mind watching that game.


Max posted:

I have important thoughts about sussing things out, but don't feel like sharing them.

Why? Just don’t feel like it or worried about pontificating or what?

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Max
Nov 30, 2002



That was far too subtle sarcasm on my part. I have nothing else to add to that discussion. Sussing out = trying to figure it out. Now this is awkward.

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