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Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Prav posted:

when you think of other people like idiots they tend to pick up on it

It's not thinking of them as idiots if you don't immediately go full Zizek on them lol

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fabergay egg
Mar 1, 2012

it's not a rhetorical question, for politely saying 'you are an idiot, you don't know what you are talking about'


cargo cult posted:

none of this precludes them from being sincerely racist people which makes talking politics with them outside bars as a brown person inadvisable. maybe they had revolutionary potential fifty years ago but theres no point in fantasizing that thats still the case

abstractly hating your skin color pales in comparison to personally hatibg the people screwing you irl. the immortal science of marxism-leninism will show u the way

Prav
Oct 29, 2011

Moridin920 posted:

It's not thinking of them as idiots if you don't immediately go full Zizek on them lol

yeah that's deffo the issue cargo cult's having here

cargo cult
Aug 28, 2008

by Reene
e: this is a stupid derail

cargo cult has issued a correction as of 01:50 on Oct 6, 2018

Badger of Basra
Jul 26, 2007

Hostess Snack Cake posted:

abstractly hating your skin color pales in comparison to personally hatibg the people screwing you irl. the immortal science of marxism-leninism will show u the way

lmao

Poniard
Apr 3, 2011



*sniff*

Peanut President
Nov 5, 2008



cargo cult posted:

none of this precludes them from being sincerely racist people which makes talking politics with them outside bars as a brown person inadvisable. maybe they had revolutionary potential fifty years ago but theres no point in fantasizing that thats still the case

lol

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

cargo cult posted:

none of this precludes them from being sincerely racist people which makes talking politics with them outside bars as a brown person inadvisable. maybe they had revolutionary potential fifty years ago but theres no point in fantasizing that thats still the case

pushing socialism without winning over labor is downright silly

racism was invented by their bosses to pit the workers against each other

Larry Parrish
Jul 9, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

cargo cult posted:

none of this precludes them from being sincerely racist people which makes talking politics with them outside bars as a brown person inadvisable. maybe they had revolutionary potential fifty years ago but theres no point in fantasizing that thats still the case

I'm a white Latino so maybe my experience is significantly different than yours but most of the racists I know are only brave when they think nobody will say anything, and generally when pushed on their beliefs don't have any materialist basis for their racism. It's just pure absorbed propaganda

cargo cult
Aug 28, 2008

by Reene
your experience is significantly different than my own

donoteat
Sep 13, 2011

Loot at all this bullshit.
Who lets something like this happen?
i will talk to you outside of a bar

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

Come to outisde the bar in the next 40 mins if u want a brain fixing

Martin Random
Jul 18, 2003

by FactsAreUseless

cargo cult posted:

sincerely racist people

you raise a troubling dichotomy can I be the not sincerely racist

no but most bar working stiffs can't wait to inform you about the One True Trick they've got to Explaining What it Really All Is and then you just have to immediately find a way to agree with what they say or some truth inside it, and then build a bridge between how their viewpoint is right but also derived from the larger picture of labor ethics and struggle, and the only reason they're ever wrong is because something out there much bigger is wronger or evil and tricking them even though they're right to think like that and its that things fault for any way they might be wrong, and then that's all it takes to redirect that energy into blaming/hating/annihilating that thing which is responsible for that weird feeling of wrongness they have that gave them the need to explain it all away with One True Trick in the first place.

donoteat you know that if you rip off the ideas here for your podcast and package it in a way where people give you a whole dollar just to propagate our propaganda you are doing gods work right

ive got some insights into the inner workings of the white house staffing system chronicled here and its all totally true and complete fact

more true than the history books

thats what I traffic in exclusively, enduring, immutable, unquestionable truth

Martin Random has issued a correction as of 16:23 on Oct 6, 2018

Martin Random
Jul 18, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
You must adopt the basic assumption that the working person and the material conditions under which they labor is the fountainhead source of truth, not theory, our academic abstraction of that; and that it's our job to find a way from that real experienced truth to the bourgeois translation/explanation of that predicament/truth of made up words. Converting actual experience to the realm of self-consistent made-up lexicography allows us to examine these experiences with the tools of abstraction and to form theories. After you have your abstract theories, and you find they have a narrative power which consistently translates a working experience to your theoretical explanation with fidelity, you bring those words and conclusions them back to the workers, the real truth, the bar.

You don't do it using the language of bourgeois theory, you articulate the phenomenon described in the abstract by the theory with the worker's words derived from their material conditions that they made up themselves. Sometimes theory tells us that the language of the working class is wrong or racist, and it needs to be corrected. That's talking down to working people, telling them what they're *really* experiencing in inscrutable language as some kind of power abstraction, and that their take is wrong. No.

You must articulate it in a way that assumes the native terms and experiences of the guys at the bar are the light from which your theory casts a shadow. The primal, previous to language, actual concrete experience of the worker is the correct foutainhead from which your theories derive, from which your entire language of abstraction is subordinate and designed to explain, centralize, and elevate as the truth. It is never wrong, and it can only be failed by the explanatory power of our theories and abstractions. Marxism is a bourgeoise derivation from that bedrock, an internally consistent system of language and ontology which arises as an abstracted bourgeois description of the material conditions of the workers. Your job is to manipulate these marxist abstractions, derive a theory of explanation not visible without these tools of abstraction, and translate it back to how it impacts the concrete aspects of the worker's experience, to bring it to them in a way that's legible and cognizable within the language and culture they've developed out of their material conditions. If you can do that, then you are a winning communist/activist.

The material conditions of the workers are the truth. The communist theory is a bourgeois abstractions of that truth. It can never be directly applied and its determinations are only really internally relevant within that system of explanation. It is that system of explanation that helps guide us marxist academics in finding truths within that system that carry over to and translate to powerful truths which describe the world of the worker's material conditions using the language that evolves from that world.

Thats a lot of words isnt it? I sound like Prester Jane, don't I? That's how you guys sound to workers, a lot of the time.

Just realize that the worker is always right and our pencil necked explanation of the world in terms of the labor theory of value is a shadow of that truth, even if internally consistent, or "less racist," or "more objectively accurate," or whatever nonsense hand wavey poo poo we use to wave off the workers if they ever try to write books. Remember, workers make everything and they will punch us like nerds, and stack the bosses up like cordwood, if we're wrong and they're conscious. Our theory may be perfectly explanatory and its prescriptions correct for optimizing time value of money or deconstructing colonialism or *whatever* made-up metric. But it is always a subordinate derivation of the thing we're trying to use it to explain, and the soil out of which everything productive or creative within this human species springs, if anything at all: the material conditions of the workers. Always.

Martin Random has issued a correction as of 17:36 on Oct 6, 2018

babypolis
Nov 4, 2009

Moridin920 posted:

actually most people are amenable as gently caress you just have to not use the forbidden words

"Let me tell you about Marxism-Leninism and the Labor Theory of Value" is one thing; "the boss is loving us" is pretty goddamn universal though

statements like "the boss is loving us" are pretty universal. i think its foolish to think there is only a short distance from that to revolutionary fervor especially in the modern era when there are a million ameliorating factors

Laphroaig
Feb 6, 2004

Drinking Smoke
Dinosaur Gum
not to derail this conversation but have you considered that if you need to train new membership in your various orgs on the best style of articulation to talk to drunks at a bar about socialism, their effort could be better spent instead doing other work. while you might want to link and pin these workers into a broader class based movement, a prime mover might be best to specialize in that type of work and have everyone else do other work.



TRAIN term of the day:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bustitution

Martin Random
Jul 18, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
donoteat do an episode on The Sixth Sense and all the hosed up poo poo that kid would probably see in a walk through philedelphia, because that kid isn't looking at architecture and street plans like most tourists and skyline city planners; he's looking at (and with special eyes is capable of seeing) the living human element in the past of these cities which we can't anymore

thats your podcast you're the the sixth sense kid but instead of dead people walking around you look at city planning documents and can see the dead people, an overlay of ghosts who lived and worked there in the past. You have the dimension of time.

all we ever see is dead sea coral colonies of architecture, and all we can ever do is wonder: when it was formed by the living element that defined this structure which is now gone, has only left a negative impression into the clay of the earth to signify its passing, what was that living element like? did this bellhouse hold founding fathers, slaves, "witches," tunnels in which chinese immigrants moved about town after sundown, a hidden jewish temple, or a secret orgy room

And thus naturally you should do ghosts because its halloween month

Martin Random has issued a correction as of 19:04 on Oct 6, 2018

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

Yeah, agreed

Martin Random
Jul 18, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
Actually do a wrap up sixth sense episode where all the ghosts from the previous episodes in a huge insane crossover mash up that only die hard fans will understand, Franklin's infinity war

Grevling
Dec 18, 2016

donoteat posted:

i screwed up my schedule big time after a weird depressive period last week

fixed a bunch of stuff that was making me hate myself this week so i oughta be finished with killdozer by the end of the weekend hopefully

Don't worry about it as 1. poo poo does suck and no wonder people get depressed and 2. the vids are always worth the wait.

fabergay egg
Mar 1, 2012

it's not a rhetorical question, for politely saying 'you are an idiot, you don't know what you are talking about'


Martin Random posted:

You must adopt the basic assumption that the working person and the material conditions under which they labor is the fountainhead source of truth, not theory, our academic abstraction of that; and that it's our job to find a way from that real experienced truth to the bourgeois translation/explanation of that predicament/truth of made up words. Converting actual experience to the realm of self-consistent made-up lexicography allows us to examine these experiences with the tools of abstraction and to form theories. After you have your abstract theories, and you find they have a narrative power which consistently translates a working experience to your theoretical explanation with fidelity, you bring those words and conclusions them back to the workers, the real truth, the bar.

You don't do it using the language of bourgeois theory, you articulate the phenomenon described in the abstract by the theory with the worker's words derived from their material conditions that they made up themselves. Sometimes theory tells us that the language of the working class is wrong or racist, and it needs to be corrected. That's talking down to working people, telling them what they're *really* experiencing in inscrutable language as some kind of power abstraction, and that their take is wrong. No.

You must articulate it in a way that assumes the native terms and experiences of the guys at the bar are the light from which your theory casts a shadow. The primal, previous to language, actual concrete experience of the worker is the correct foutainhead from which your theories derive, from which your entire language of abstraction is subordinate and designed to explain, centralize, and elevate as the truth. It is never wrong, and it can only be failed by the explanatory power of our theories and abstractions. Marxism is a bourgeoise derivation from that bedrock, an internally consistent system of language and ontology which arises as an abstracted bourgeois description of the material conditions of the workers. Your job is to manipulate these marxist abstractions, derive a theory of explanation not visible without these tools of abstraction, and translate it back to how it impacts the concrete aspects of the worker's experience, to bring it to them in a way that's legible and cognizable within the language and culture they've developed out of their material conditions. If you can do that, then you are a winning communist/activist.

The material conditions of the workers are the truth. The communist theory is a bourgeois abstractions of that truth. It can never be directly applied and its determinations are only really internally relevant within that system of explanation. It is that system of explanation that helps guide us marxist academics in finding truths within that system that carry over to and translate to powerful truths which describe the world of the worker's material conditions using the language that evolves from that world.

Thats a lot of words isnt it? I sound like Prester Jane, don't I? That's how you guys sound to workers, a lot of the time.

Just realize that the worker is always right and our pencil necked explanation of the world in terms of the labor theory of value is a shadow of that truth, even if internally consistent, or "less racist," or "more objectively accurate," or whatever nonsense hand wavey poo poo we use to wave off the workers if they ever try to write books. Remember, workers make everything and they will punch us like nerds, and stack the bosses up like cordwood, if we're wrong and they're conscious. Our theory may be perfectly explanatory and its prescriptions correct for optimizing time value of money or deconstructing colonialism or *whatever* made-up metric. But it is always a subordinate derivation of the thing we're trying to use it to explain, and the soil out of which everything productive or creative within this human species springs, if anything at all: the material conditions of the workers. Always.

so what kind of drink do you want with that?

Martin Random
Jul 18, 2003

by FactsAreUseless

Hostess Snack Cake posted:

so what kind of drink do you want with that?

that block of text was a literal trap for the lanyards in this thread who think talking to people at a bar will get them punched because the proles are all unthinking animals awaiting enlightenment and also they must use words like intersectionality or time value of money or whatever dork poo poo they feel is necessary

see how i say the same thing way easier using vernacular in the post before that one?

fabergay egg
Mar 1, 2012

it's not a rhetorical question, for politely saying 'you are an idiot, you don't know what you are talking about'


alright so a diet coke

Cocoa Crispies
Jul 20, 2001

Vehicular Manslaughter!

Pillbug

Martin Random posted:

donoteat do an episode on…

you should do your own podcast

instead of posting

Martin Random
Jul 18, 2003

by FactsAreUseless

Hostess Snack Cake posted:

alright so a diet coke

shut the gently caress up, nerd

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

babypolis posted:

statements like "the boss is loving us" are pretty universal. i think its foolish to think there is only a short distance from that to revolutionary fervor especially in the modern era when there are a million ameliorating factors

Sure all I'm really saying is people are way more amenable to socialist ideas when properly presented outside the context of propaganda that has been shoved into their brains over the last decades. You say the word "socialism" or "communism" and it's like a switch gets flipped in their brains turning them into Liberty Prime but if you talk about how really the workers should decide how the business runs they are interested. No one ever really taught them what socialism is, they just taught them "here are the bad words."

Moridin920 has issued a correction as of 16:59 on Oct 7, 2018

Larry Parrish
Jul 9, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Last time I talked to a dude at my DSA chapter ive dismissed in the past for being a retarded theory bro he was trying very hard to speak like a normal human to people it was cool.

Cocoa Crispies
Jul 20, 2001

Vehicular Manslaughter!

Pillbug

Martin Random posted:

shut the gently caress up, nerd

post 40000 words about it

fabergay egg
Mar 1, 2012

it's not a rhetorical question, for politely saying 'you are an idiot, you don't know what you are talking about'


Martin Random posted:

shut the gently caress up, nerd

What the gently caress did you just loving say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the New School, and I've been involved in numerous secret debates on proletarian vanguardism, and I have over 300 confirmed wins. I have read On Guerilla Warfare and I'm the top reply sniper in the entire Party for Socialism and Liberation. You are nothing to me but just another class traitor. I will wipe you the gently caress out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my loving words. You think you can get away with saying that poo poo to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're loving dead, kid. I can post anywhere, anytime, and I can debate you on over seven hundred topics, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unresearched posting, but I have access to the entire arsenal of Marxists.org and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable rear end off the face of the continent, you little poo poo. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your loving tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will poo poo fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're loving dead, kiddo.

babypolis
Nov 4, 2009

Moridin920 posted:

Sure all I'm really saying is people are way more amenable to socialist ideas when properly presented outside the context of propaganda that has been shoved into their brains over the last decades. You say the word "socialism" or "communism" and it's like a switch gets flipped in their brains turning them into Liberty Prime but if you talk about how really the workers should decide how the business runs they are interested. No one ever really taught them what socialism is, they just taught them "here are the bad words."

yeah and now you are teaching a class about socialism and we are back where we started

Martin Random
Jul 18, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
hey dipshits, you killed the thread because you're dipshits.

There's a new episode up.

ScrubLeague
Feb 11, 2007

Nap Ghost
he'll yeah

ScrubLeague
Feb 11, 2007

Nap Ghost
i dont see anything i think you're a liar

Martin Random
Jul 18, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
I wanted to make CocoaKrispies look.

ScrubLeague
Feb 11, 2007

Nap Ghost
u mother fuckr

Goast
Jul 23, 2011

by VideoGames
lol a thread for a good goonmade youtube channel couldn't even make it past the first page without people getting real mad at each other over nonsense

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


Poniard posted:

when is the killdozer episode!!!!!!!!!!

Laphroaig
Feb 6, 2004

Drinking Smoke
Dinosaur Gum

Goast posted:

lol a thread for a good goonmade youtube channel couldn't even make it past the first page without people getting real mad at each other over nonsense

goonfriend, this is page 2, we clearly made it past the first hurdle and revisionist roaders like you will be sent to the trainyards for reeducation about wheel sizes, rail gauges, and how to properly read timetables

Streak
May 16, 2004

by Nyc_Tattoo
I like city and skylines it's a good game

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Pentecoastal Elites
Feb 27, 2007

once a month or so I get pumped about playing C:S and spend like 4 hours downloading, updating, and pruning a perfect mod list. then i play the game for ~15 minutes and get frustrated because i can't get the roads right and give up for another month. goty.

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