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Internet Kraken posted:Extended already has a problem with a handful of gods being way more useful than the other ones there. It limits variety and moves every endgame character towards being one homogenized group of extremely similar builds. The fact that you're suggesting changing gods as a good thing shows your extreme ignorance about extended. And you'd rather have one exclusive amulet available to use to solve your problem? lmao I didn't call switching to zin a good thing, I cited it as an "interesting decision"
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Jul 14, 2020 22:26
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i guess the best way to summarize my feelings is that there are two types of objectionable cuts: flavor cuts and mechanical cuts. i generally object to things like species removal on a flavor basis. if someone loves centaurs, mountain dwarves, et al. that is not always because they love the mechanics. taking them out and saying "well, palentonga exist now. minotaurs have been around for a long time and are very similar." is not satisfying because the flavor was the attraction. these are not really cutting at the core of the game, but ultimately you lose people in drips and drabs from these kinds of cuts who would otherwise keep playing, even if they know that their character might be stronger as a palentonga or a minotaur than a centaur or a mountain dwarf. too much of this also makes the game feel alien to a returning player, and there is not actually a development cost to just keeping these suboptimal choices around. well, other than figuring out how to do a multi-page race selection screen (which gooncrawl has  ). personally i make a lot of noise about flavor cuts because i value the game's identity pretty highly, but i do understand why some folks don't care about them and think i'm unreasonable.mechanical cuts are the ones that are often genuinely harmful. not always - sometimes a mechanic just sucks - and even a mechanic that is deeply interlocked with the rest of the game like hunger could hypothetically be removed smoothly if compensatory changes are made simultaneously. it's when the devs seem to not realize that the compensatory changes need to be made at all, as with rmut and glow, that you start to worry about the direction of the game as a whole. a roguelike is like a building; the whole thing could topple if enough support is removed, and you wouldn't feel safe being in the building if a construction crew showed up and decided that they love the architecture of the upper floors but all of those pesky ground-floor pillars really have to go.
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Jul 14, 2020 22:28
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:And you'd rather have one exclusive amulet available to use to solve your problem? lmao So your argument is that multiple ways of solving a problem with different tradeoffs that might be used by different characters is bad because instead they left one options you can pidgeonhole into? Like, Internet Kracken isn't saying only an amulet of rMut could be used for Hell, just that it presented another option than everyone being forced to worship Zin. Instead you could weigh the cost of trading an amulet to get through a specific portion of the game OR worship Zin and keep your amulet slot! Like there is an actual decision being made there rather than 'Worship Zin or get hosed'
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Jul 14, 2020 22:31
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As someone who really enjoys Crawl but is so bad they have only ever touched the Orb once, seeing this kind of discussion coming from both sides - even though it is heated - is incredibly interesting and helps solidify some nebulous thoughts I've had about the game floating around. I have absolutely no authority to speak on any of the changes, other than I get a constant feeling of enjoying new things they add (Frozen Ramparts rules, and throwing Ignite Poison into the starting book was very helpful for me) but also a feeling of loss for reasons I can't put my finger on since I don't know the game well. With regards to races, I guess I'm in the "why can't we have both" camp, because I see a glut of options as a good thing. Roguelikes, at least to me, are an amalgam of crunch and balance that isn't perfect but presents at least a convincing illusion of a massive number of impactful choices to be made. The "Requirements" talk is something that's always been in my brain but not something I've ever quantified. I, and my friends who do enjoy the game, were drawn to it precisely because it was a looming mess of systems that seemed both modern and archaic. The first time I remember going "huh, that was weird" was when High Elf was removed. Until then I had always been under the assumption the game only underwent positive development or re-balancing, and not having things removed with no replacement. I'm not exactly saying losing a race was bad because I honestly couldn't tell you how High Elf was different than Deep Elf other than it probably had more HP and less magical aptitude, but it felt weird to lose it. This might be an incredibly dumb anecdote, but I remember once selling the game to one of my friends by telling him that casting Shatter or Lee's Rapid Deconstruction on a god altar would sometimes make the god blow you up. To this day I still don't know if that is true, or something I misremembered, or something I made up in my head about the game. But it's something that is cool and that I a) would not be surprised to learn exists in Old Crawl and b) suspect that if it did exist was removed for being dumb and pointless Not trying to say I'm hard into either camp since, you know, I'm stupid and bad at the game, but that's the general atmosphere I get from being someone who has played on and off for a few years and doesn't follow the development too closely outside of lurking this thread.
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Jul 14, 2020 22:31
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:And you'd rather have one exclusive amulet available to use to solve your problem? lmao I never said that the amulet was perfect, but it was a solution to an annoyance. Its one part of a flawed system that the devs only messed up further by not thinking about the consequences of their actions and being unwilling to expend the effort to touch parts of the game they didn't consider. If the devs want to replace all this with a system that works better, great! But they didn't do that. They just removed parts of the system without touching other parts. So you end up with stuff like huge amounts of glow and not decent solution to it other than hoarding a consumable that you'd rather use in more tactical, interesting ways than simply "counteract RNG". You can see the same thing at play with the trap rework, which is what made me quit the game. One of the devs changed traps in a way that made them harder to avoid since they were triggered by monsters. They claimed this made you have to think about positioning and movement more. This is true in some parts of the game. However, then you have places like Tomb where almost every inch of the screen is covered by traps, the place is choked with enemies, and some of those enemies have sporadic movement. The result of this is that you can not think strategically about positioning and traps. Its impossible to keep tons of them from being triggered. Its a giant mess and feels really lovely to play. Its what made me quit the game since it was so miserable. The devs don't consider this an issue because Tomb is supposed to be 'hard', completely ignoring that the difficulty now comes almost entirely from RNG out of the players control. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 22:32
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:Probably because he said "and it is an interesting choice to decide whether you hate glow enough to forgo all of the other amulets" ?? Weird, he said that he hates glow, not mutation. Strange how glow is not mutation. The problem with glow is that it forces random mutations onto you and means you either need to wear a single amulet or worship a specific god in order to avoid having your mutations hosed with. Potions had the issue of killing the mutations you like as well as the ones you get rid of.
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Jul 14, 2020 22:33
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tweet my meat posted:I certainly appreciate a good effortpost, thanks! I think my disagreement comes from mostly from my focus more on the micro level turn to turn tactics and tedium rather than the macro level systems and strategy that you're going into depth about. I've always had a pretty lazy (improvisational if you wanna be generous) attitude towards longer term character building in rpgs outside of occasionally rushing those hard requirements like needing x stat to cast y high powered spell if the mood strikes me, so it's not usually the part of any given game that interests me as much. The goal for most games should be 'As much depth as possible without creating confusion' along side 'As little external information needed as possible - just let your players play'. Roguelikes are probably a fairly strong exception for the latter, but regardless, you can actually accomplish both of these things while still meeting the expectations for a Roguelike. Crawl has been somewhat close in the past. The most useful application of this is where a new player isn't confronted with depth until they seek it out. The game looks simple on the surface, but it's just the tip of the iceberg. One of the best examples of this might be D&D 3.0e. Most players will just pick a class and do class-things. Some might multiclass because reasons - a lot of it's narrative driven and that's great. But if you reallllly want to peel back the layers, you can start building some goofy poo poo, like a melee character that uses a combination of class features, specific weapons, and some interesting reading of the rules to create a character that has a crit threat range of 1 - 20. D&D is a weird example since there isn't anything enforcing the rules and the rules are generally written narrative-first, and systems-second, but that kind of design where complexity is highly available, but optional is desirable. My point here though is that when thinking about a game, I feel it's folly for someone to think about their immediate desires (experienced player or not) and instead think about what makes a game interesting to experience over a long period of time and how do you best achieve the goals set out for the game for the largest parts of your audience. Canine Blues Arooo fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 22:34
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I don't even understand the appeal of the new race it's apts are bad and uninteresting, the roll attack is supremely underwhelming and it's stats are nothing to write home about.
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Jul 14, 2020 22:34
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:Endgame characters are typically overpowered to the extent that they made it that far in the first place. Random mutations are hard. Extended should be hard. Accept it. You don't just get to waltz through hell and be annoyed at a mechanic designed to hurt the player badly then curse out the developers and expect them to listen seriously. I still have yet to hear what your great ideas were, other than "return this amulet"  " is just dragging the level of discourse down so far it's wasting your own time as much as it's a waste of everyone else's. We're all playing the same notoriously difficult roguelike here, nobody is asking for an easy mode. There's a difference between a gameplay mechanic that is hard but fair and one that swings wildly between "inconsequential" and "crippling" based on nothing but the luck of the draw. The entire point of Crawl was supposed to be that it punishes avoidable mistakes, not bad luck. When you die, there is supposed to always be something you could have done better. Extended should be hard the way playing a game of chess against a Russian grandmaster is hard, not in in the way that it's hard to win the lottery. When you flip a coin it doesn't matter if you win or lose, because it's not your achievement either way.
Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 22:35
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:Swapping amulets is not an interesting choice. Swapping gods is. literally the opposite, actually swapping gods is not, generally, a choice you can make. It requires you to go all the way back up to the Temple, change gods, wait out the wrath of the god you just pissed off, and build up piety with your new god to a useful level. This is, to put it simply, not really something you can actually just go do. In most circumstances, a player will go into a game already knowing what god they intend to pick up and stick with over the course of the entire game. At most, a player is going to be swapping gods maybe once in their entire run, and usually only if their plan was to do so from the very beginning(because they picked a god that does not work very well in extended and want to pick up like, Zin or someone who isn't useless after Lair). It's not a tactical choice, it's an overarching strategic one usually made before the player even hits New Game. You might as well say "oh you're having trouble with poison? why not switch races to gargoyle?". changing amulets, meanwhile, is a tactical choice. You can weigh the pros and cons of what equipment you have on and what would most benefit you in the moment, and choose accordingly. Any individual choice you make isn't going to be some giant galaxy brain maneuver, but over the course of the game it adds up to a layer of depth that the player has to consider, and is a place to apply their growing knowledge of the game. Ultimately, this is what roguelikes are about : gradually growing your knowledge of the game's systems and applying that knowledge to make good tactical and strategic decisions in order to make the best use of the resources you are given to overcome the challenges you are set. Removing choices from the equation(to say nothing of removing ENTIRE SYSTEMS) does nothing but reduce the overall depth of the gameplay.
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Jul 14, 2020 22:36
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code:
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Jul 14, 2020 22:37
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Internet Kraken posted:I never said that the amulet was perfect, but it was a solution to an annoyance. Its one part of a flawed system that the devs only messed up further by not thinking about the consequences of their actions and being unwilling to expend the effort to touch parts of the game they didn't consider. If the devs want to replace all this with a system that works better, great! But they didn't do that. They just removed parts of the system without touching other parts. So you end up with stuff like huge amounts of glow and not decent solution to it other than hoarding a consumable that you'd rather use in more tactical, interesting ways than simply "counteract RNG". You've been extremely insulting this entire time and I've held back, but I probably wont anymore. Your insistence that being pigeonholed into certain builds and playstyles is wrong while championing the rMut amulet are ideas that do not work together. Perhaps hell is meant to be cripplingly difficult. Perhaps you are meant to be mutated. Holy poo poo, perhaps you are wrong! I really have no clue how you reconcile these thoughts while being so insulting towards me. You want a swappable item to mitigate an entire endgame threat. You don't have it. Deal with it. I won't say get good because you claim to already be, but... find a way to deal with it without being such a whiny little contradictive bitch
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Jul 14, 2020 22:38
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I want to hear more from PG-13 about how mutations in end game are 'hard' and how swapping gods is an interesting choice that isn't just waiting out a wrath. Also I wrote an effort post about Hunger you didn't care to respond to I see.
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Jul 14, 2020 22:39
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Zore posted:Like there is an actual decision being made there rather than 'Worship Zin or get hosed' Get hosed is a consequence of entering zigs or endgame. The entire idea of being able to trace your mistake to your death in Crawl or any roguelike is a myth - you can get outright hosed. End of sentence. You can play perfectly and die not due to a folly of your own making but bad RNG or bad anything. You. Will. Die. Your amulet slot doesn't matter and your god doesn't matter. Every streak ends. The game will win. If you want to justify your "mistake" of "i entered unexplored territory diagonally instead of horizontally, revealing more space" or other dumb bullshit like this, go ahead. Roguelike endgame should be cripplingly difficult. End of story.
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Jul 14, 2020 22:44
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Just a reminder that rMut amulets were removed at the same time Malmutate was kept in, which was an unavoidable dice roll to gently caress up your character permanently just for being in LoS of Shining Eyes, Cacodemons, and Orbs of Fire. The only way to avoid it at that point was worshiping Zin, which was not going to be done at all by casters, and drove an entire set of gods out of endgame viability on its own. There's a reason why that was purged from GoonCrawl almost immediately.
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Jul 14, 2020 22:44
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:I want to hear more from PG-13 about how mutations in end game are 'hard' and how swapping gods is an interesting choice that isn't just waiting out a wrath. Also I wrote an effort post about Hunger you didn't care to respond to I see. I skimmed through your post and didn't really care for it. You seem to think hunger is interesting. Good for you, I guess! Go back to .10 when sickness from brown chunks was in. Have a blast. I don't know what kind of reply you expected, certainly from me
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Jul 14, 2020 22:47
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:You've been extremely insulting this entire time and I've held back, but I probably wont anymore. Your insistence that being pigeonholed into certain builds and playstyles is wrong while championing the rMut amulet are ideas that do not work together. Perhaps hell is meant to be cripplingly difficult. Perhaps you are meant to be mutated. Holy poo poo, perhaps you are wrong! lol yeah you've been a bastion of good manners up til now, but now the gloves are OFF!! This guy gonna say BITCH now!!!!!!!!!! Oh poo poo!!!!!!!! PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:I skimmed through your post and didn't really care for it. You seem to think hunger is interesting. Good for you, I guess! Go back to .10 when sickness from brown chunks was in. Have a blast. I don't know what kind of reply you expected, certainly from me "Give me a proper response. No, not like that"
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Jul 14, 2020 22:48
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PlasticAutomaton posted:Just a reminder that rMut amulets were removed at the same time Malmutate was kept in, which was an unavoidable dice roll to gently caress up your character permanently just for being in LoS of Shining Eyes, Cacodemons, and Orbs of Fire. The only way to avoid it at that point was worshiping Zin, which was not going to be done at all by casters, and drove an entire set of gods out of endgame viability on its own. There's a reason why that was purged from GoonCrawl almost immediately. This is called difficulty. Many gods are not end game viable. I only ascended Wu when walljump was one turn. High stealth is about the only way to encounter one of these creatures without a chance of them acting immediately with a malmutate. Don't know what else to tell you.
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Jul 14, 2020 22:49
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:You've been extremely insulting this entire time and I've held back, but I probably wont anymore.  PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:Its really cool that you've declared your responses as almighty god himself righteously striking down anything contrary to your static desires. Games in active development change. Go play an old version and keep yourself happy, then shut up with your entirely unconstructive complaints about progressive changes that make this game better by the day. This was your first response to me. If you think that is holding back your head is so far up your rear end you can see out your throat. Furthermore, you straight up told me that all my ideas about this game I was once extremely passionate about 'suck' (clearly without ever actually knowing any of those ideas), so how the hell are you not trying to be combative. quote:Your insistence that being pigeonholed into certain builds and playstyles is wrong while championing the rMut amulet are ideas that do not work together. Perhaps hell is meant to be cripplingly difficult. Perhaps you are meant to be mutated. Holy poo poo, perhaps you are wrong! Did you just ignore the part where I said the amulet was part of a flawed system? I never said it was perfect. I literally said if the devs wanted to replace it with a more interesting system, I would be all for that. But they didn't. They just removed it, and didn't consider other parts of the game when doing so. You're also once again missing the point that glow isn't even a dangerous effect for hell! There is WAAAY worse that can happen to you. All hell glow does is make you unlikely to maintain a nice mutation set, which just dampens one of the parts of the game I fell in love with. It does not make things significantly harder most of the time, and once again due to it being ENTIRELY RNG, it may never even occur. That is not a good way to impose difficulty. That's just nonsense. And hey, I have no clue if you've even touched extended, but in case you weren't aware there's a part of it that is designed entirely around mutations. Mnoleg's realm is choked with mutators and Mnoleg itself can mutate you just with a melee attack. Notice how I am not complaining about this part of the game. Why? Because its thematically appropriate, and because the mutations come from enemies it still has degrees of counterplay to avoid it. There is no random RNG that punishes you simply for existing. Why are you trying to talk about stuff you obviously don't understand?
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Jul 14, 2020 22:50
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:I skimmed through your post and didn't really care for it. You seem to think hunger is interesting. Good for you, I guess! Go back to .10 when sickness from brown chunks was in. Have a blast. I don't know what kind of reply you expected, certainly from me Don't demand answers to things and then brush off people giving you the answers you claimed you wanted. Why are you still here if you don't care to engage?
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Jul 14, 2020 22:51
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:Roguelike endgame should be cripplingly difficult. End of story. PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:This is called difficulty. People being unable to separate interesting difficulty from difficulty for the sake of being able to say 'wow this game is super hard which automatically means it's for Real Gamers' leads to a lot of terrible design decisions in fan games and community-made games. Decisions that result in a game nobody wants to play because it's not actually fun, and people mistaking that for people being driven away because it was 'too hard'(when people are more than willing to play challenging games as long as they're actually well thought out and fun).
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Jul 14, 2020 22:54
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:I skimmed through your post and didn't really care for it. You seem to think hunger is interesting. Good for you, I guess! Go back to .10 when sickness from brown chunks was in. Have a blast. I don't know what kind of reply you expected, certainly from me Ah, so you are actually just trolling here - got it.
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Jul 14, 2020 22:58
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Internet Kraken posted:Did you just ignore the part where I said the amulet was part of a flawed system? This is thoroughly your opinion that the system of endgame is flawed because of the difficulty. Don't know what else to tell you. Kchama posted:Don't demand answers to things and then brush off people giving you the answers you claimed you wanted. Why are you still here if you don't care to engage? I'm completely uninterested in hunger and glad for the removal. You'll have to find forgiveness for me not engaging on a mechanic that doesn't even exist anymore
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Jul 14, 2020 22:59
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someone awful. posted:yo, i remember on araganzar's gooncrawl testlive branch at eatthepurple he had the throwing overhaul working and i would love to see that brought into gooncrawl proper. it's all good, but the especially fun part for me is how it makes needles a cool and useable thing without the kludge of blowguns. If you remember the branch name, I'll take a look and see if it is ready to merge (unless anyone wants to say the new throwing system is bad, then I'll put it up to vote first).
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Jul 14, 2020 23:00
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Haifisch posted:Difficulty, in and of itself, should not be a design goal. Fun, interesting difficulty should be. "You will get malmutated to gently caress in the endgame unless you worship one god out of all the options available" is neither fun nor interesting. This is a very important post. When Tomb was reworked, it became significantly more difficult. I did not object to this. It was harder, but a lot more interesting due to the enemy variety and forced repositioning. A static part of the game was made more difficult, but in a way that tested your skill and made you consider your options. It was no longer nearly as easy to simply stroll through it with the extremely narrow set of builds that trivialized it. Then they inadvertently changed Tomb again with the traps rework. Suddenly Tomb was a chaotic mess where you were randomly teleported around and subjected to tons of trap effects on almost every action. A previously very difficult area where every movement had to be carefully considered was now more disjointed and hectic than the Abyss. This made Tomb stupidly hard, and not in a fun way! Because it didn't give me new options to consider and choices to make! It was just RNG bullshit stemming from which traps the game decided to spawn, and whether or not the randomly moving enemies would stumble into them! That's not fun difficulty! PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:This is thoroughly your opinion that the system of endgame is flawed because of the difficulty. Don't know what else to tell you. Your reading comprehension is loving garbage. I told you the MUTATION RESISTANCE system was flawed, the thing you accused me of thinking was perfect. Also, just because you keep saying hell glow adds difficulty.... doesn't make it actually true. Like, you can just say it, but that doesn't change all the other stuff people have said about how its mostly random and barely affects the majority of characters. All it does is feel lovely and annoying.
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Jul 14, 2020 23:02
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Haifisch posted:Difficulty, in and of itself, should not be a design goal. Fun, interesting difficulty should be. "You will get malmutated to gently caress in the endgame unless you worship one god out of all the options available" is neither fun nor interesting. Spelunky is one of the greatest games ever made. Most of the encounters are interesting. You can, however, be absolutely hosed. In the caves, an alien ship can come out of nowhere and blow your character up. An arrow trap can be triggered from across the level and knock you into spikes. There is nothing you can do but restart the game, unless you look at that encounter and say its too hard, there should have been equipment that saved me, etc.
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Jul 14, 2020 23:02
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:I'm completely uninterested in hunger and glad for the removal. You'll have to find forgiveness for me not engaging on a mechanic that doesn't even exist anymore if you're not willing to engage on things that have been removed in a discussion about things being removed then honestly i'm not sure what is left to even talk about
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Jul 14, 2020 23:04
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Please stop
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Jul 14, 2020 23:05
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Internet Kraken posted:Your reading comprehension is loving garbage. I told you the MUTATION RESISTANCE system was flawed, the thing you accused me of thinking was perfect. I know you said that. It wasn't the only thing you said: Internet Kraken posted:Extended already has a problem with a handful of gods being way more useful than the other ones there. It limits variety and moves every endgame character towards being one homogenized group of extremely similar builds. The fact that you're suggesting changing gods as a good thing shows your extreme ignorance about extended.
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Jul 14, 2020 23:06
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:This is thoroughly your opinion that the system of endgame is flawed because of the difficulty. Don't know what else to tell you. Then stop demanding people reply to you and do weird victory laps when people don't immediately respond. All you're doing is making yourself look like an rear end. If you're not willing to read, then stop posting.
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Jul 14, 2020 23:07
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:Spelunky is one of the greatest games ever made. Most of the encounters are interesting. You can, however, be absolutely hosed. In the caves, an alien ship can come out of nowhere and blow your character up. An arrow trap can be triggered from across the level and knock you into spikes. There is nothing you can do but restart the game, unless you look at that encounter and say its too hard, there should have been equipment that saved me, etc. This is a terrible example because Spelunky can be consistently completed 99% of the time if you play extremely well. The situations where RNG straight up fucks you in an unavoidable way are very, very few. RNG in level composition makes Spelunky harder, but its almost always in a way the player has the ability to fight back against. If something like Hell glow was in Spelunky, you would randomly lose equipment when trying to make it through Hell. A mechanic like that would certainly make the game harder, but do you think it would be more interesting and fun?
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Jul 14, 2020 23:08
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Internet Kraken posted:This is a terrible example because Spelunky can be consistently completed 99% of the time if you play extremely well. The situations where RNG straight up fucks you in an unavoidable way are very, very few. RNG in level composition makes Spelunky harder, but its almost always in a way the player has the ability to fight back against. Three-rune streaking is the same way, completable 99% of the time. Do you really think extended should have the same winrate?
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Jul 14, 2020 23:10
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:Spelunky is one of the greatest games ever made. Most of the encounters are interesting. You can, however, be absolutely hosed. In the caves, an alien ship can come out of nowhere and blow your character up. An arrow trap can be triggered from across the level and knock you into spikes. There is nothing you can do but restart the game, unless you look at that encounter and say its too hard, there should have been equipment that saved me, etc. yeah, that's a flaw. no-win situations are something that roguelikes tend to grow out of as they age and the systems are refined. it's hard to fully eliminate them if the game is sufficiently complex, but it's generally a goal to make as much of the game as possible responsive to player knowledge and skill. this was a guiding principle for crawl for a long time. spelunky, as a single-dev project that went through a rather limited amount of iteration because people bought the hell out of it anyway, never actually matured as a game; most commercial games, in fact, don't. their design is always short of their potential because "make as much money as we can, as soon as possible" and "create the best possible game" are goals that are partially in conflict.
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Jul 14, 2020 23:10
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Jazerus posted:yeah, that's a flaw. no-win situations are something that roguelikes tend to grow out of as they age and the systems are refined. it's hard to fully eliminate them if the game is sufficiently complex, but it's generally a goal to make as much of the game as possible responsive to player knowledge and skill. this was a guiding principle for crawl for a long time. spelunky, as a single-dev project that went through a rather limited amount of iteration because people bought the hell out of it anyway, never actually matured as a game; most commercial games, in fact, don't. their design is always short of their potential because "make as much money as we can, as soon as possible" and "create the best possible game" are goals that are partially in conflict. I honestly believe this is less of a flaw and more of the mythical thinking that death in certain games should always be traceable to a player mistake. We're not talking about chess here.
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Jul 14, 2020 23:13
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:Three-rune streaking is the same way, completable 99% of the time. Do you really think extended should have the same winrate? No? Where on earth are you getting the idea that I think extended is too difficult? I guarantee I've beaten extended more than you. I've beaten it with every single race, god, and probably class up version 0.23 or so. I'm fully aware of how difficult it can be, and for the most part consider its difficulty fairly solid. This entire conversation about hell glow has nothing to do with difficulty. You can pretend it does, but saying that doesn't make it true. Because the vast majority of the time hell glow does not make extended more difficult, and especially not in any interesting or meaningful way. Its just an annoyance that trashes a fun part of the game, and feels incredibly irritating to deal with. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 23:13
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:Three-rune streaking is the same way, completable 99% of the time. Do you really think extended should have the same winrate? In a perfectly designed roguelike a theoretical perfectly skilled player should achieve a 100% winrate. Obviously, your average player will not, and should not, win all or even most of the time. But it should always be winnable. Any scenario in which a player is playing perfectly and fails to win is evidence of flawed design.
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Jul 14, 2020 23:14
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cock hero flux posted:In a perfectly designed roguelike a theoretical perfectly skilled player should achieve a 100% winrate. Obviously, your average player will not, and should not, win all or even most of the time. But it should always be winnable. Any scenario in which a player is playing perfectly and fails to win is evidence of flawed design. Magical thinking, then. There is no perfectly designed roguelike where the circumstances you describe exist. Its a dream that hasn't been accomplished yet - a myth, if you will
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Jul 14, 2020 23:16
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:Magical thinking, then. There is no perfectly designed roguelike where the circumstances you describe exist. Its a dream that hasn't been accomplished yet - a myth, if you will That doesn't mean you have to accept design flaws or argue in their favor because 'nothing is perfect'.
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Jul 14, 2020 23:18
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:I honestly believe this is less of a flaw and more of the mythical thinking that death in certain games should always be traceable to a player mistake. We're not talking about chess here. It should be. This is a core tenet of game design at even its most basic level. All the way down to Freecell, this is accepted as true. Obviously, it is impossible to achieve perfection, and so even an incredibly tightly designed game may cause an unavoidable loss occasionally, but whatever caused such a loss should be recognized as a flaw rather than just going "actually it's good game design that something you just can't win".
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Jul 14, 2020 23:19
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Kchama posted:That doesn't mean you have to accept design flaws or argue in their favor because 'nothing is perfect'. You're confusing design flaws with unattainable goals. Roguelikes are one of the oldest types of video games in existence. If a perfectly designed, flawless-player-with-a-perfect-winrate roguelike could exist, it probably would by now
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Jul 14, 2020 23:20
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