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Gorelab
Dec 26, 2006


Generally part of game design is making sure the optimal way to play the game isn't the most tedious because a lot of people will just do the optimal tediousness and then bounce off. However this feels like a worse way of doing a clock than food, to be honest.

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Tendales
Mar 9, 2012


Zodack posted:

I don't understand - just choose not to use those tactics or know what you're getting in to in the first place?

I don't post much and I've never ascended but even I know that there are probably archaic or wild things that are weird and time consuming. Those are probably fun for some people and not for others (like me, maybe?) who would just choose not to do them.

Again, as someone who is a bad Crawl player and enjoys the game pretty casually the last thing I want is a sense that the game itself has put me on a clock. Food felt organic and something out of older roguelikes, a system to manage. Don't the players get to decide what is fun and what is not? All I can assume is they're talking about Xomscumming, which I don't understand because I'm bad, but... don't punish everyone else because there are loopholes or weird ways to play the game that became more viable because you gutted an entire system?

It seems like they've done the math but I guess I don't understand what they're balancing here, and that feels bad. I don't want to play a roguelike that punishes me for exploring or taking my time for any reason. And as someone who just plays for fun I certainly don't care if Forum Poster B decides to Xomscum a win or something.

I think your case is the exact reason why it's a good idea to remove tedious optimal behavior.

To get Crawl biases out of the picture, let's look at a different game, SotS: The Pit. A new player can have a lot of fun just charging in, shooting monsters and eating sammiches, but they won't get far. So they go to look up how to improve their odds of winning. Those ways are:

1) Stop using your guns. Ammo is scarce, so you need to use melee weapons for conservation.
2) No, put your sword away, too. Weapons break from use surprisingly quickly, so you need to use your bare fists as much as possible.
3) Learn to manually rest correctly. Rest mode gives you increasing +HP per round the longer you do it, so it's vital for conserving food. Resting also takes a LONG time, in actual real time. You literally have to sit in place for up to 100 turns at about 1 turn per second.
4-9999) etc

The Pit deliberately embraces boring as poo poo optimal behavior, and it sucks because the only way you can succeed at the game is to also embrace the tedious behavior. When people suggest they change these things, the responses always fluctuate between "It's important to the gameplay" and "You don't HAVE to play like that"



e: This new Crawl change is poo poo, because it's replacing a tedious behavior that was just busywork that would rarely kill you (eating), with new more opaque busywork that will often kill you (carefully counting how many turns you're allowed to be on each level to avoid wasting banked safe turns).

Tendales fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jul 31, 2020

Victory Position
Mar 15, 2004

Don't call me a hero.









Gorelab posted:

Generally part of game design is making sure the optimal way to play the game isn't the most tedious because a lot of people will just do the optimal tediousness and then bounce off. However this feels like a worse way of doing a clock than food, to be honest.

I was on-board until I saw how extreme the ramp-up is at the end. You know I can still walk around a little bit and try to not splat something as soon as I see it when I'm starving to death, right?

At the end of the day, there's going to be some sort of item that reduces ZOT TIME and it's going to be a renamed ration.

LeastActionHero
Oct 23, 2008


I think more likely is they just get rid of the soft cap and make it cumulative. Trying to dive for 6k turns/level of xomscumming probably isn't enough to get anything worthwhile. And you can hang out in the abyss or pan forever, but by that point you can scour the abyss for everything anyway.

Better yet would be to make xom less dumb as a god. Is there anything else worth waiting around for? God wrath maybe? But I figure if you're timing out god-wrath you could probably survive indefinitely in the abyss - and this could be avoided by making god-wrath dependent stuff besides time.

nerve
Jan 2, 2011


SKA SUCKS



I will never play a version of crawl with a death timer. gently caress those people are muppets

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Zodack posted:

I don't understand - just choose not to use those tactics or know what you're getting in to in the first place?

I don't post much and I've never ascended but even I know that there are probably archaic or wild things that are weird and time consuming. Those are probably fun for some people and not for others (like me, maybe?) who would just choose not to do them.

Again, as someone who is a bad Crawl player and enjoys the game pretty casually the last thing I want is a sense that the game itself has put me on a clock. Food felt organic and something out of older roguelikes, a system to manage. Don't the players get to decide what is fun and what is not? All I can assume is they're talking about Xomscumming, which I don't understand because I'm bad, but... don't punish everyone else because there are loopholes or weird ways to play the game that became more viable because you gutted an entire system?

It seems like they've done the math but I guess I don't understand what they're balancing here, and that feels bad. I don't want to play a roguelike that punishes me for exploring or taking my time for any reason. And as someone who just plays for fun I certainly don't care if Forum Poster B decides to Xomscum a win or something.

it makes a lot of sense for the design vision that the trunk team has, which is "crawl as a competitive speed game". as i've said before, the issue with trunk is not the changes themselves, it's that they are implemented on the main branch and the rationale is not clear unless you've watched the development for a long time. "speedcrawl" as a fork would be fine, and probably fairly popular.

Big Mad Drongo
Nov 10, 2006





Grimey Drawer

LeastActionHero posted:

I think more likely is they just get rid of the soft cap and make it cumulative. Trying to dive for 6k turns/level of xomscumming probably isn't enough to get anything worthwhile. And you can hang out in the abyss or pan forever, but by that point you can scour the abyss for everything anyway.

Better yet would be to make xom less dumb as a god. Is there anything else worth waiting around for? God wrath maybe? But I figure if you're timing out god-wrath you could probably survive indefinitely in the abyss - and this could be avoided by making god-wrath dependent stuff besides time.

Xom owns, they're the only pre-Stone Soup god who never required a rework afaik. Xomscumming is boring and should be punished (not like this, obviously) but normal Xom play is fun and interesting.

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008






What about people who like scumming? Sometimes I used to play a mummy and just sit on floors until you got the absurd OoD spawns that existed to encourage you to move on and try to kill them for a massive early exp boost. Sometimes poo poo like that is fun!

Vadun
Mar 9, 2011

I'm hungrier than a green snake in a sugar cane field.



Why not just put the XOT timer on XOM dudes? How hard is that?

What other extremely tedious bullshit still exists?

Floodkiller
May 30, 2011



Vadun posted:

Why not just put the XOT timer on XOM dudes? How hard is that?

What other extremely tedious bullshit still exists?

Sitting on a really good piece of terrain for fighting monsters and continuously shouting/luring every monster into it instead of exploring the level and potentially getting caught in a bad situation due to bad terrain/fast monsters.

Big Mad Drongo
Nov 10, 2006





Grimey Drawer

SirSamVimes posted:

What about people who like scumming? Sometimes I used to play a mummy and just sit on floors until you got the absurd OoD spawns that existed to encourage you to move on and try to kill them for a massive early exp boost. Sometimes poo poo like that is fun!

Xomscumming is the optimal play 100% of the time, whereas killing a OoD for big xp is fun/a personal challenge, but (almost?) never the optimal play. That's a key difference imo.

cock hero flux
Apr 17, 2011






so after removing food and then discovering exactly why food existed, they decide, rather than just putting back the thing that had worked for over a decade, to come up with a new system that has 0 player engagement whatsoever and just puts an arbitrary time limit on the game

incredible

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


The timer is exactly what I’d expect someone to come up with as their first change to the normal roguelike formula because they dislike food, not from a team that’s been doing this for a while. It’s kinda baffling in that regard.

However, I think they’re generally right about it not being an issue in most games, I don’t spend 3,000 turns on most any floor so I doubt it would come up in regular play... which kinda just makes the whole this more confusing because anyone who cares about scumming can just do it till they’re at 10,750 (or whatever) for that floor and then move on. So I’m not certain I know what it will really accomplish except to punish players that get stuck running away from a pack of yaks for 7,000 turns.

Also, maybe I missed it or forgot but did they change mummy when they reworked food? It woukd be hilarious if they decided mummy was immune to the clock as a way to keep the feeling.

Sage Grimm
Feb 18, 2013

Let's go explorin' little dude!


No, the food clock excision was done with a minimum of changes, as is the recommended course for development. Balancing comes later once that part is stabilized, as evidenced by their Zot Timer addition being crazy wonky along edge cases.

someone awful.
Sep 7, 2007




all I can think of is the nethack-ism "the penalty for pudding farming is pudding farming"

you don't need to mechanically disincentivize something that's so boring and tedious only the most ridiculous of people are going to do it to begin with, tbh

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


I miss OOD spawns. That was a fun clock.

I don't miss food at all and have wanted it gone for years.

Pakistani Brad Pitt
Nov 28, 2004

Not as taciturn, but still terribly powerful...



When I started playing this a couple months ago I chose gooncrawl because I thought it was going to be a roguelike, but with Groverhaus and Get Out Frog in-jokes. Seriously.

Now I want to say thank you for just maintaining a fork of what is really a drat fun game without succumbing to awful unfun decisions that are happening in trunk. Seriously, I get the desire to ban the scummery, but why do this with the food system and not by just tweaking Xoms whims so he’s not scummable?

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008






we do need to make barachi shout "GET OUT" when you do t->t though

Captainsalami
Apr 16, 2010

I told you you'd pay!


Could always make trap doors and poo poo insulated stairs.

Kerbtree
Sep 8, 2008

BAD FALCON!
LAZY!


Dinosaur Gum

Chakan posted:

However, I think they’re generally right about it not being an issue in most games, I don’t spend 3,000 turns on most any floor so I doubt it would come up in regular play... which kinda just makes the whole this more confusing because anyone who cares about scumming can just do it till they’re at 10,750 (or whatever) for that floor and then move on. So I’m not certain I know what it will really accomplish except to punish players that get stuck running away from a pack of yaks for 7,000 turns.

If they weren't allergic to stuff from Back In Ye Day, they could just bring back OOD spawns when you've been on a level for a long time

quote:

Also, maybe I missed it or forgot but did they change mummy when they reworked food? It woukd be hilarious if they decided mummy was immune to the clock as a way to keep the feeling.

It's a challenge race!

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Pakistani Brad Pitt posted:

When I started playing this a couple months ago I chose gooncrawl because I thought it was going to be a roguelike, but with Groverhaus and Get Out Frog in-jokes. Seriously.

Now I want to say thank you for just maintaining a fork of what is really a drat fun game without succumbing to awful unfun decisions that are happening in trunk. Seriously, I get the desire to ban the scummery, but why do this with the food system and not by just tweaking Xoms whims so he’s not scummable?

i would not be opposed to a groverhaus vault

PG-13 SEX DUNGEON
Dec 17, 2003



vault of shafts and freezing clouds

Pakistani Brad Pitt
Nov 28, 2004

Not as taciturn, but still terribly powerful...



Groverhaus vault should have lots of Elec damage.

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


Sage Grimm posted:

No, the food clock excision was done with a minimum of changes, as is the recommended course for development. Balancing comes later once that part is stabilized, as evidenced by their Zot Timer addition being crazy wonky along edge cases.

That was my recollection, but stuff does slip by or get forgotten. TY.

Kerbtree posted:

It's a challenge race!

My fear is that they’ll cut mummy for being uninteresting after this. Not that they’d be wrong, and race slots are at a premium in dcss, but I really have an affinity for mummies because they were how I learned a lot of advanced stuff when I started (xp allocation after big fights, weapon breakpoints, “high level spells and when they’re castable") so I would be sad to see them go. Hopefully they get reworked, even if they lose their current feeling. Of course that’s assuming hunger is gone for good, we’ll see.

Chakan fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Aug 2, 2020

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011
I got chased out of the Monster Hunter thread for garbage posting, now I shit up other Games threads with useless low-effort uninformed aggro noise. I somehow think "VN nerds" are beneath me and I belong on your ignore list.

Mummies' whole thing has always been that they're pretty much the designated race for grinders and scummers, where the trade-off for their weaknesses is that they can become incredibly powerful and master every skill in the game if you're willing to invest that much time into the character. They're literally the opposite of everything that the Stone Soup devs want Crawl to be, so they will probably remove them sooner or later and for once I honestly wouldn't even be upset, because they've already done everything they could to make there be no point to them anymore anyway. Most of what you could originally do to exploit their special status hasn't actually been in the game in years.

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


I just really enjoyed the laid back feeling of not having the clock on my back. I liked being able to explore the dungeon and find out that a branch was too much without feeling like I was now that much closer to death by starvation. I'll fully confess that is mainly just nostalgia from ~.6 or .7 when I was learning the game, combined with my own issues with timers in games, and it probably shouldn't be held back by something that small. Hell, they might just say "we have enough undead races so we're cutting mummy because it's boring and lets us add something interesting" and I doubt anyone would put up a fuss.

Kerbtree
Sep 8, 2008

BAD FALCON!
LAZY!


Dinosaur Gum

I’ve got a half-formed idea that mummies thing should be consuming scrolls. Maybe sacrificing them for MP, or undoing stat/skill draining. Something like that.

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011
I got chased out of the Monster Hunter thread for garbage posting, now I shit up other Games threads with useless low-effort uninformed aggro noise. I somehow think "VN nerds" are beneath me and I belong on your ignore list.

Kerbtree posted:

I’ve got a half-formed idea that mummies thing should be consuming scrolls. Maybe sacrificing them for MP, or undoing stat/skill draining. Something like that.
Use them as wrapping, to get a special equipment effect that other races don't have? Would be interesting. Sort of like a perma-buff, although that is really more valuable in trunk than it would be in Gooncrawl.

Victory Position
Mar 15, 2004

Don't call me a hero.









PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:

vault of shafts and freezing clouds

a Bathdoom vault where the rock walls are slime walls

also the vault is very, very small and has slime walls

Slaapaav
Mar 3, 2006


i wanna play a mountain dwarf whats the best version for it?

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Slaapaav posted:

i wanna play a mountain dwarf whats the best version for it?

i forget whether they took out mountain dwarves or dwarven/elven armor first

whichever version is the last version that has both of those is the best one for the full mountain dwarf experience

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


According to the knowledge bots, MD were removed in .10 trunk, dwarven/elven gear in .14. So you gotta go back to 0.9.

World Famous W
May 25, 2007

BAAAAAAAAAAAA



Grimey Drawer

Cardiovorax posted:

Use them as wrapping, to get a special equipment effect that other races don't have? Would be interesting. Sort of like a perma-buff, although that is really more valuable in trunk than it would be in Gooncrawl.
Add scroll equipment slot. Each scroll has an associated mutation to it. Give scroll equipment Fragile upon equip

Kerbtree
Sep 8, 2008

BAD FALCON!
LAZY!


Dinosaur Gum

Idle thoughts while working:
    Scroll of acquirement - ??something??
    Scroll of amnesia - reduce direct-hit spell damage vs next X attacks
    Scroll of blinking - EV bonus vs next X attacks
    Scroll of brand weapon - random elemental bonus for next X attacks
    Scroll of enchant armour - AC bonus vs next X attacks?
    Scroll of enchant weapon - slaying bonus on next X attacks
    Scroll of fear - fear next X attackers
    Scroll of fog - random fog spawns near player for Y turns
    Scroll of holy word - ??something??
    Scroll of identify - ??something??
    Scroll of immolation - ??something??
    Scroll of magic mapping - antennae 1(?) for X turns
    Scroll of noise - stealth bonus for X turns
    Scroll of random uselessness - ??something??
    Scroll of remove curse - ??something??
    Scroll of silence - negate next X direct spell hits
    Scroll of summoning - abjure next X summoned who hit you
    Scroll of teleportation - larger EV bonus vs next X attacks
    Scroll of torment - ??something??
    Scroll of vulnerability - negate next X direct spell hits

That's right, it me, ideas guy! I'll start the wiki

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Trunk has turned cloud wands into cloud XP evokables. They've removed a lot of great wands over the years, I wonder if they'll eventually be removed altogether?

Cut here, cut there, and eventually a whole chunk of the game doesn't make sense any more. See: charms.


edit: to clarify i'm not necessarily complaining about this potential change. evokables with charges aren't that different from wands.

bees x1000 fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Aug 5, 2020

Arzaac
Jan 2, 2020


I honestly don't mind the idea of that. It means a limited resource is still limited, but you're encouraged to actively use it instead hoarding it forever. Once you max out the changes it's not going to gain any more, so you might as well start using them.

Hell, that would've been a great thing to do to hasting wands instead of cutting them entirely. Make it an evokable with one charge that takes a long time to recharge just to make it a super limited resource.

Pakistani Brad Pitt
Nov 28, 2004

Not as taciturn, but still terribly powerful...



Is there a limit on Yred animated dead followers in Gooncrawl? I have a glorious army of 10-15 doods following me around and I want to know how much I can abuse this. It seems like Orc will be easy, at least...

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011
I got chased out of the Monster Hunter thread for garbage posting, now I shit up other Games threads with useless low-effort uninformed aggro noise. I somehow think "VN nerds" are beneath me and I belong on your ignore list.

Arzaac posted:

I honestly don't mind the idea of that. It means a limited resource is still limited, but you're encouraged to actively use it instead hoarding it forever. Once you max out the changes it's not going to gain any more, so you might as well start using them.

Hell, that would've been a great thing to do to hasting wands instead of cutting them entirely. Make it an evokable with one charge that takes a long time to recharge just to make it a super limited resource.
That really just encourages you to thoughtlessly use it in roughly every encounter where you have it available because not using it is as much of a waste as using it wrong - any time you're not actively on cooldown, you're wasting potential uses, because the game is only so long and any overflow doesn't add up. It just takes away from the strategic dimension of usable items in a different way, but it's way more annoying to me personally because it basically means I have to treat my loadout like an MMO hotbar and rotate through everything instead of just sticking with what I actually want to use.

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


Cardiovorax posted:

That really just encourages you to thoughtlessly use it in roughly every encounter where you have it available because not using it is as much of a waste as using it wrong - any time you're not actively on cooldown, you're wasting potential uses, because the game is only so long and any overflow doesn't add up. It just takes away from the strategic dimension of usable items in a different way, but it's way more annoying to me personally because it basically means I have to treat my loadout like an MMO hotbar and rotate through everything instead of just sticking with what I actually want to use.

I was going to argue that you're being a bit hyperbolic, but TOME does almost exactly this and some of the classes really do feel like you're playing an MMO. But, I will say that evoking clouds isn't a huge deal imo. I'm sure someone will add in a randart "Grinders Vape Pen" at some point.

Pakistani Brad Pitt posted:

Is there a limit on Yred animated dead followers in Gooncrawl? I have a glorious army of 10-15 doods following me around and I want to know how much I can abuse this. It seems like Orc will be easy, at least...

You can only take so many followers and summons down the stairs with you, unless something has changed. I haven't played Yred or Beogh in a while and pretty much nothing else will hit that cap without effort.

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Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011
I got chased out of the Monster Hunter thread for garbage posting, now I shit up other Games threads with useless low-effort uninformed aggro noise. I somehow think "VN nerds" are beneath me and I belong on your ignore list.

Chakan posted:

I was going to argue that you're being a bit hyperbolic, but TOME does almost exactly this and some of the classes really do feel like you're playing an MMO. But, I will say that evoking clouds isn't a huge deal imo. I'm sure someone will add in a randart "Grinders Vape Pen" at some point.
Yeah, I wasn't thinking of it specifically, but it does and it's something a lot of people don't always like a lot. That said, I don't think of MMO style gameplay as intrinsically horrid and bad, so that wasn't supposed to be some kind of scathing insult. It's just a style of play that I really, really don't enjoy. I want the freedom of being able to use what I want when I want it, without artificial "effectiveness moderators" like cooldown mechanics holding me back from it.

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