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So ****ing appropriate, play vanilla first time in ages as a VpAs for the Crawl Sudden Death Challenge, hit D4, and am immediately shafted 3 floors. So now I'm on D7 with a godless pagan with 27 hp and 2 scrolls. But I just killed a gnoll with a +5 vamp dagger with rf+. Thank god vanilla crawl IDs monster weapons, that gnoll would have trashed me. So if I make it out, Dith seems best with a vamp dagger, no? Anyway if anyone has experience with Shittier Vampires let me know, it feels like bloodless is the way to go but the frailty is murderous.
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Feb 4, 2020 01:51
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Just the typical: Alive early game to build up experience and some meat in your cloak, Bloodless once you're a poo poo hot mage and can kill loads of things from a distance and/or have an alternative regen option handy. Not sure if Dith is a good choice for a species with an already massive stealth modifier when Bloodless and spectacular abilities for stealth and Hexes regardless. The biggest thing it's covering is your -2 to Translocations with Shadow Step. Makhleb tends to be the common, boring choice followed by Sif/Vehumet for blasters. I'd suggest Nemelex or even Lugonu if that's available without Abyssing yourself.
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Feb 4, 2020 04:23
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Well, my only options under the challenge were dith, kiku, or qaz. Dith was a no brainer with hexes. If you don't find a good dagger I think Kiku is probably the best choice. I had to stay bloodless since I had no resists. The dagger was great but it turns out with no other gear it's really not enough. After Orc and D +0 troll leather was the best body armor I could cast in, no boots, no gloves, +0 hat, no amulets, 1 useful ring, no acquirement, my best piece of equipment in the whole game was a +2 cloak of nothing. Found 1 randart body armor all game - with -Cast. Used all my blinks, finally died to an entropy weaver I couldn't kill with might + agility + umbra, not even the mighty scattershot could finish it off. 1 portal all game - ice cave with axes and animal skins. Only resists I found all game were a ring of rF and a +0 ring mail of rPois. I think I've had worse luck before but I'd really have to think hard about it. I know you're supposed to be able to win with nothing but 3 hours of pulling teeth just wears on you.
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Feb 4, 2020 05:09
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If malmutate is staying gone in Gooncrawl (which I still think is a bad change), can we at least make resist mutation officially be considered a bad mut? If it's not protecting you from hostile mutations, then all it does is resist fun.
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Feb 4, 2020 06:37
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SirSamVimes posted:can we at least make resist mutation officially be considered a bad mut? If it's not protecting you from hostile mutations, then all it does is resist fun.
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Feb 4, 2020 06:45
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Malmutate is terrible and should never return
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Feb 4, 2020 08:46
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I liked it existing as a threat that forced you to address it immediately that wasn't just torment or hellfire. Also a threat that had lasting effects that you can't just sit around until they go away. edit: I also liked item corrosion, but burning/freezing scrolls/potions was a terrible mechanic and I'm glad that one's gone. SirSamVimes fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 09:02
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Part of toning down and eventually removing malmutate's presence in the game was in response to mainline Crawl's dumpstering of curing/resisting mutations to begin with. There should be threats that make characters slow down and think tactically, but they also need some form of counterplay that isn't "Push button, counter threat". Hellfire is limited to a handful of things that are either squishy or have to be in melee range, but it's not damaging enough to outright kill someone appropriately geared for the area. Unless you end up teleported right next to Hellion Island and eat several in a row, you're not going to get instagibbed from Hellfire. Torment is a bit more common but can be entirely prevented by things that give you drawbacks you have to work around. Statue Form makes you slow, Lich Form prevents some healing and makes you super squishy to Dispel Undead, Crown of Torment makes you super squishy, going Gozag and spamming potion petition costs a finite amount of resources, etc. Malmutate's design space of "almost worthless unless you roll something bad; cure bad things immediately" is more of a nuisance than a challenge.
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Feb 4, 2020 10:37
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cock hero flux posted:everything was still on fire, it just wasn't my fire anymore
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Feb 4, 2020 12:41
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Jen X posted:Malmutate is terrible and should never return
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Feb 4, 2020 16:02
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I still appreciate Malmutate as a way to deal long-term damage to the player, like a form of item destruction (RIP). As was said above, someone hitting you with it will cause more damage than can be fixed by holding down 5.
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Feb 4, 2020 16:51
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I don't appreciate the randomness of it. Getting hit with malmutate has essentially equal chances to be a minor nuisance or to gently caress you over so hard that it basically ends your run. In a game where infinite resources do not exist and you may not be able to make up for permanent damage, permanent damage shouldn't exist either. That's something you can deal with in Angband, because there are always more randomly generated levels for you to grind yourself back up, but in Crawl? All it takes is one bad roll of the dice to gently caress you over through no real fault of your own when someone else in the exact same situation might not get seriously harmed at all.
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Feb 4, 2020 17:03
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Malamute  gave you extra stuff to deal with. Running extended with teleportitis, berserkitis, or blurry vision is quite difficult and many others like frailty or placid magic can make things rough. Malmuters also broke up the monotony of places like abyss and pan. Its removal being a condition for the institution of this branch, what do we replace it with? Would making malmute a random mutation instead of mostly bad help? Should mutation resistance be replaced with another resist like rot/miasma/rcorr? Would it be helpful to have an actual mutation potion again that adds 1-3 random mutations without taking away 2-4? Or put bene mut and cure mut back into loot tables? Extended could be more difficult and varied, I wonder if there's some other kind of handicap, debuff, or forced conduct, maybe ones specific to extended branches, that would make it more interesting/challenging without changing the game too much...
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Feb 4, 2020 17:18
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Araganzar posted:Its removal being a condition for the institution of this branch, what do we replace it with? Would making malmute a random mutation instead of mostly bad help? Damage to ability scores, weakened resistances, HP loss, those are things you can work around. They don't inhibit your ability to act in a way that basically makes an entire set of tools too unpredictable to really rely on. That's the kind of thing we would need to get rid of to make malmutate not necessarily less unpleasant, but less outright frustrating.
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Feb 4, 2020 17:25
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I really don’t think malmutate adds anything to the game beyond being a rng check on how many cure mutation potions (or mutation for the newer set) you find And it actively makes the joy of eating the purple worse since you end up curing the fun stuff along with, like, your berserkitis
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Feb 4, 2020 18:14
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Maybe handle it like wretched stars and require X amount of experience or time to negate before you go back to normal. And/or have it need a charge up before you get hit with it letting you throw up clouds, grab some cover, blink away... Anything to potentially dodge it. Maybe quaffing a potation of cancellation or mutation automatically purges you of any temporary mutations as well. Or just give malmutate to only the toughest and worst monsters so that you aren't expected to look like the guy that gets run over at the end of Robocop while trying to clear late/extended. Malmutate stunk because unless you had rMut you were totally screwed and it often took just walking into LoS of a glowing eye for you to get a potentially game endingly bad mutation (teleportitis, zerkitis) through no fault of your own. This was exacerbated in trunk when the devs yanked rMut amulets and kept mutation because... reasons. Like others have said, it turned mutation into a strict resource check with no strategy beyond doing a simple check to see if you have any cure mutations stashed up. Nothing fun about them. quote:That spell is called Corrupting Pulse, it's a LOS spell but not smiting, it wouldn't be hard to give it to former malmuters. It would also be fairly easy to set up a similar spell that has more mutations included (so you could get good ones same as with malmute) or that takes more or less time to overcome with XP. You could even have an Evolving Pulse that gave a random good mutation temporarily, something like a potion of Beneficial Corruption that gives you 2-4 temporary good mutations. This already sounds great to me. Mutations are maybe my favourite part of the game and the idea of adding more and more of them is great especially if they're functional in some way. Like in your example growing an extra arm initially screws up armour forcing you do take off anything higher than a robe but if it grows larger lets you now two hand a weapon and a shield? Just spitballing. Another idea is what about using the same code or at least the same idea as an orb of destruction and having malmutate be an orb of mutation? Still gives you time to dodge it, maybe even bounce it with reflection? FulsomFrank fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 18:17
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That spell is called Corrupting Pulse, it's a LOS spell but not smiting, it wouldn't be hard to give it to former malmuters. It would also be fairly easy to set up a similar spell that has more mutations included (so you could get good ones same as with malmute) or that takes more or less time to overcome with XP. You could even have an Evolving Pulse that gave a random good mutation temporarily, something like a potion of Beneficial Corruption that gives you 2-4 temporary good mutations. Having it charge up would be more difficult. One other thing that might help is adding some more cool or hilarious mutations growing extra arms or getting bigger or smaller or acid blood....
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Feb 4, 2020 19:40
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FulsomFrank posted:Maybe handle it like wretched stars and require X amount of experience or time to negate before you go back to normal.
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Feb 4, 2020 20:01
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I like temp malmutate. That's a good idea.
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Feb 4, 2020 20:34
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You could vary which malmutations you get from different malmuters so eyes are probably giving out -2 strength but orbs of fire have the full suite including berserkitis and friends. Frankly orbs of fire can do anything they want.
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Feb 4, 2020 20:55
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:You could vary which malmutations you get from different malmuters so eyes are probably giving out -2 strength but orbs of fire have the full suite including berserkitis and friends. Frankly orbs of fire can do anything they want. I really like this idea.
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Feb 4, 2020 21:01
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Most regular malmutators aren't really the problem, so what would that fix?
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Feb 4, 2020 21:04
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Cardiovorax posted:Most regular malmutators aren't really the problem, so what would that fix?
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Feb 4, 2020 21:05
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When people say they hate malmutate and that complaint is being taken seriously, then fixing the malmutate of every enemy except for the only ones most players are actually guaranteed to run into over the course of a non-extended game isn't really much of a solution. Just pointing that out. There are better ways to deal with that problem, some were already suggested.
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Feb 4, 2020 21:15
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If you want something that deals long-term damage to a player, how about something in Abyss/Pan/Hell that damages piety?
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Feb 4, 2020 21:37
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Cardiovorax posted:When people say they hate malmutate and that complaint is being taken seriously, then fixing the malmutate of every enemy except for the only ones most players are actually guaranteed to run into over the course of a non-extended game isn't really much of a solution. Just pointing that out. There are better ways to deal with that problem, some were already suggested.
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Feb 4, 2020 21:43
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:You're not really running into them over the course of a game though - you are exclusively running into them at the very end of one. That the final push for the orb is frantic and full of serious danger is a good thing and it's why orbs of fire get to break the rules.
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Feb 4, 2020 22:03
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:You could vary which malmutations you get from different malmuters so eyes are probably giving out -2 strength but orbs of fire have the full suite including berserkitis and friends. Frankly orbs of fire can do anything they want. I like this idea too. I don’t know if I’ll have time to post in detail on malmutation, but I think restricting the worst mutations to OoF and Mnoleg is good and could salvage an interesting mechanic. We also should wait to hear from Floodkiller, since his precondition for making Gooncrawl was the removal of malmutation.
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Feb 4, 2020 22:19
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I'm willing to deal with the full range of malmutations if they are also made temporary, but as it is it's honestly just a pain.
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Feb 4, 2020 22:27
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Wretched stars are scary as hell, but still fun, since there's counterplay (fight weak stuff until you shake off the malmuts), and it basically echoes/builds upon Drain, which is really only threatening past midgame if you're a hybrid and stretching yourself too thin. Edit: Could rMut instead reduce the duration of temporary malmut? I still agree that right now, the rMut mutation is basically just rFun. rMut 1 gives TMal 50% duration, rMut2 makes you immune to TMal, but gives current rMut penalties to eating the purple, Zin and racial immunity are rMut3, which makes you immune to eating the purple, too. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 23:12
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I need advice on when or how to swap to other weapon types http://crawl.eatthepurple.com/crawl/morgue/vadun/vadun.txt I have the +7 Spriggan's Knife, but its starting to fall off, especially since I took a random shrine that turned out to be TSO. There are a couple greatswords laying around, but nothing notable that i've identified in the blade category other than the Knife. I know crosstraining makes it easier to swap to Long Blades because of the "Free" but ephemeral skill levels, but if I find a great axe or mace would that be easier assuming I can train it up in time? Should I think about swapping off of TSO instead so I can utilize stealth and keep the Knife instead? I'm also not sure what to keep training now, as the skill requirements for max speed with the Knife is only 10. i'm used to having super heavy weapons and not having to think about it.
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Feb 5, 2020 01:34
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Maybe keep malmutate gone from everything because it adds a random chance to gently caress you over and no actual complexity, even for per-fight mutations However! If we restricted hypothetical temp malmutates to small lists you could do fun things with specific enemies causing specific subsets of temporary debuff mutations, because now it’s a known quantity and can be planned for
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Feb 5, 2020 02:07
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In the context of a non extended game, would there be much difference between an OoF mutation that's permanent or one is temporary based on experience gain? You're not really getting much experience after that stage, you're basically running away as fast as you can.
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Feb 5, 2020 02:49
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Also while Iskenderun's Undoing is extremely cool, I would like it to stop crashing my game. edit:  Gnollskills + Cheistats is a fun combo. I can cast any level 9 spell I want in plate armour.
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Feb 5, 2020 04:49
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Zot is actually *stuffed* with xp, OOFs are 13k each, a value burned into my brain for when we still had 20k xp pool limits. If a draconian/dragon uses drain breath on you, it will be long gone before you even lay eyes on the orb. Do not touch an OOF's malmutate, they are perfect and inviolate.
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Feb 5, 2020 04:53
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make oof malmutate the only perma malmutate in the game make it guaranteed to hit you with rF- 3 times before it moves on to other stuff
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Feb 5, 2020 05:03
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https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/SirSamVimes/morgue-SirSamVimes-20200205-042442.txt Disappointed to discover I can no longer wield bread upon leaving, but oh well.
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Feb 5, 2020 05:27
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Vadun posted:I need advice on when or how to swap to other weapon types You don't need to sneak up on guys with the spriggan's knife, it makes invisible and confuse stabs tier 1 which means they do at least 5x the damage as a usual stab. You can use meph cloud for that, it might be worth it to swap to Zin if you get a source of invisibility as the stat boost is nice for stabbing. Also I think TSO won't let you stab distracted guys which you do 10x usual damage with. Train fighting, armor, dodging? Stabbing skill is average of short blades and stealth and every 5 points doubles stab damage so train some stealth, too.
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Feb 5, 2020 06:03
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SirSamVimes posted:https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/SirSamVimes/morgue-SirSamVimes-20200205-042442.txt I never seem to get fists of thunder or singing sword. Get Infestation next time, it's a game changer for extended. Speaking of artefacts....  Staff of Battle is on ETP and should be coming to kelbi in the next few hours. Elemental staff is now a 5-school enhancer (I added conjurations because why not) and Margery has a chance to drop (and wield) Wyrmbane. I also did something with warlock's mirror based on a FK commit to vanilla, not sure what because maths, if you get it and it starts shooting death rays please tell me. Going to improve a few of the "kill ur self" Demonspawn mutations next and think about which ones might be good for temporary beneficial ones. I've also had 2 requests to have oka stop dropping robes and I might play with making enhancer staffs little because it sure sucks to not be able to use a shield as a small race. After that I might play with the throwing reform (darts) although that looks pretty invasive and might be beyond my feeble lizard brain.
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Feb 5, 2020 06:19
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Definitely switch to Zin, yell the gospel at people until they're confused/paralysed and then shank them.
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Feb 5, 2020 06:20
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