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Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


Great Thread, Great OP, Great Game. Thank you for setting this up and to everyone who works on gooncrawl! Iíve bit off more than I can chew in the game Iím GMing right now, but I would like to look into helping set up a scoreboard at some point, though it probably wouldnít be till January, tbh.

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Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


Jazerus posted:

there's a dev right here who listens to every suggestion in this thread and then we, people who are somewhat reasonable, vote on whether they are good enough to be goals or not. also you can just make a thing because you think it's cool/interesting and then have it voted on for inclusion. literally everything you want is right here.

I donít think this is the best response to give. Doubly so if youíve actually been reading the DCSS thread on SA for a while. Iím not going to jump down your throat & Iíll ask others to stay civil, but thereís been a history of genuine and interesting ideas hashed out here that have been altered or rejected by the devs, even when they solve (as viewed by this thread) large and thorny problems.

e: vv lol Iím tired, Iíve just seen that post so many times from dev-adjacent people. Sorry!

Chakan fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Feb 11, 2019

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


PMush Perfect posted:

I am now a member of the GoonCrawl elite! Bow before me, peasants! quietly pushes winrate under the bed with her foot

A high winrate just means you're not pushing yourself to try new things. Or you've tried everything and are just good at the game I guess.

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


Well, experimental has those beetle-taurs (at the cost of centaurs which feels very wrong because centaurs are both flavorful & a good race to teach a lot of game concepts without being boring or over/underpowered) so some things might be added in the future.

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


The timer is exactly what Iíd expect someone to come up with as their first change to the normal roguelike formula because they dislike food, not from a team thatís been doing this for a while. Itís kinda baffling in that regard.

However, I think theyíre generally right about it not being an issue in most games, I donít spend 3,000 turns on most any floor so I doubt it would come up in regular play... which kinda just makes the whole this more confusing because anyone who cares about scumming can just do it till theyíre at 10,750 (or whatever) for that floor and then move on. So Iím not certain I know what it will really accomplish except to punish players that get stuck running away from a pack of yaks for 7,000 turns.

Also, maybe I missed it or forgot but did they change mummy when they reworked food? It woukd be hilarious if they decided mummy was immune to the clock as a way to keep the feeling.

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


Sage Grimm posted:

No, the food clock excision was done with a minimum of changes, as is the recommended course for development. Balancing comes later once that part is stabilized, as evidenced by their Zot Timer addition being crazy wonky along edge cases.

That was my recollection, but stuff does slip by or get forgotten. TY.

Kerbtree posted:

It's a challenge race!

My fear is that theyíll cut mummy for being uninteresting after this. Not that theyíd be wrong, and race slots are at a premium in dcss, but I really have an affinity for mummies because they were how I learned a lot of advanced stuff when I started (xp allocation after big fights, weapon breakpoints, ďhigh level spells and when theyíre castable") so I would be sad to see them go. Hopefully they get reworked, even if they lose their current feeling. Of course thatís assuming hunger is gone for good, weíll see.

Chakan fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Aug 2, 2020

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


I just really enjoyed the laid back feeling of not having the clock on my back. I liked being able to explore the dungeon and find out that a branch was too much without feeling like I was now that much closer to death by starvation. I'll fully confess that is mainly just nostalgia from ~.6 or .7 when I was learning the game, combined with my own issues with timers in games, and it probably shouldn't be held back by something that small. Hell, they might just say "we have enough undead races so we're cutting mummy because it's boring and lets us add something interesting" and I doubt anyone would put up a fuss.

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


Cardiovorax posted:

That really just encourages you to thoughtlessly use it in roughly every encounter where you have it available because not using it is as much of a waste as using it wrong - any time you're not actively on cooldown, you're wasting potential uses, because the game is only so long and any overflow doesn't add up. It just takes away from the strategic dimension of usable items in a different way, but it's way more annoying to me personally because it basically means I have to treat my loadout like an MMO hotbar and rotate through everything instead of just sticking with what I actually want to use.

I was going to argue that you're being a bit hyperbolic, but TOME does almost exactly this and some of the classes really do feel like you're playing an MMO. But, I will say that evoking clouds isn't a huge deal imo. I'm sure someone will add in a randart "Grinders Vape Pen" at some point.

Pakistani Brad Pitt posted:

Is there a limit on Yred animated dead followers in Gooncrawl? I have a glorious army of 10-15 doods following me around and I want to know how much I can abuse this. It seems like Orc will be easy, at least...

You can only take so many followers and summons down the stairs with you, unless something has changed. I haven't played Yred or Beogh in a while and pretty much nothing else will hit that cap without effort.

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


You eat the pizza. mmm... Pandemonium Pizza
You can feel the gaze of Zot lessen on you.


I haven't played much in a while, and not to win in a couple years, so I decided to bag a win during an all-day meeting today. Morgue





The bottom of the morgue has # of turns spent on each level. I was moving pretty slow because I wasn't 100% focused and once I got to lair I decided I wanted to win, but I'm still under 2,300 turns for everything, and only a handful of levels above 2K. This is gooncrawl, but it shouldn't be very different for main branch. Which just means it makes no sense to have the zot clock, to me. I have no idea who it punishes other than HOM who does not need to be punished and will just scum abyss if scumming is what they want.


Of note about this run:
1) D1 altar to Okawaru, but I still used the starting trident till mid-lair when I got a +7 trident of venom from him. It just proves that DSFi is such a powerful start that you can flatten anything for a long time. Not that anyone thought Okawaru wasn't powerful.
2) My mutation set was hilarious. High AC + guardian spirit means everything has to work twice as hard to get you low and +slaying when on high HP ameliorates the pain of going 1-handed, shields are such a good quality of life improvement for lots of mid to late game threats.
3) I didn't really touch skills. I turned off shields once I got close to eliminating the penalty and turned it back on when I got a good large shield. I trained invocations and evocations a little, and unarmed a little (mostly because I got a manual and felt like it.)


I'll try to make an effort to play more on CKO, if only to clear out the five million Archaeologist ghosts I encountered.

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


Floodkiller posted:

"only caring about competitive tournaments/scoreboards and ruining anything outside of that and to kill all fun in existence" is a bad take.

Agreed, I think the devs are trying to examine what works about an old system and update it. I also think that experimental is exactly where they should be trying things like this so people can work out that it has problems with people who get shafted, and doesn't really deter scummers. I don't think either of those are controversial points against the system as implemented.

But I also don't think there's a subset of players who think scumming is necessary to win, is that a common perception? I understand the devs should guard against the HOM who makes the game unfun for himself by trying to play optimally, but I dunno if it moves beyond Hypothetical in this instance. especially if they're saying that more than 3K turns is exceptionally rare. Does anyone have the numbers on how many folks play over 5K turns on a level?

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


Phoneposting or Iíd go digging myself, but does anyone have a link to their reasoning for removing staves of summoning & wizardry? Wiz I can guess at it being uninteresting and covered by the ring, I think? But I donít know why summoning was singled out among the non-wiz staves. Do they think itís too strong?

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


someone awful. posted:

here (summoning) and here (wizardry). it seems like they want staves to all have a melee effect now, so staves of conjuration (and earth?) got reworked and these two got removed

I disagree with Wiz, but donít feel itís a big deal. Thereís a rung that does the same thing and stacking the buff isnít really useful. Rings are a little cramped so maybe I would have removed the ring instead, but whatever.
Summoning, however, really feels like theyíre just cutting it to have a nice clean design sheet. Iím sure they tried a few different evocation-on-hit choices and didnít think they were fitting, but just removing it doesnít seem like the solution. It also make summoning, a school thatís notorious for how finicky it is to transition to late-game of a 3-5 rune run, worse at the point where you start picking up staves.

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Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


I once got an AF +1 chainmail with rC+ and something like int-5 str-5 tele*. This was when stat death still existed so there was just no way I could risk forgetting to breathe unfortunately.

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