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Yeah. The politics and the tourney fighting scenes were absolutely never my jam. I was there for melees and to go to war.
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Dec 13, 2018 16:01
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Liquid Communism posted:Yeah. The politics and the tourney fighting scenes were absolutely never my jam. I was there for melees and to go to war. It was the loving insane politics that drove me out. Some of the tourney stuff was awesome. But a vast majority of it was junk.
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Dec 13, 2018 17:17
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I saw way too many people in the tourney scene who, I hate to say, I would not have trusted to honorably take a good shot. Too much ego involved in their fighting to accept a hit, or a White Belt of Defense +1.
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Dec 14, 2018 06:16
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Liquid Communism posted:I saw way too many people in the tourney scene who, I hate to say, I would not have trusted to honorably take a good shot. Too much ego involved in their fighting to accept a hit, or a White Belt of Defense +1. Good point. This is one reason why I just stopped with my Award at Arms. Not to mention always playing in a good harness usually had me tagged as a high priority target as soon as I was visible on the field.
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Dec 14, 2018 18:26
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EvilMerlin posted:loving insane politics Could you elaborate more? This is all very interesting.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:23
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pat_b posted:Could you elaborate more? This is all very interesting. So in the SCA you have these households. Some of them are small, some massive and can control entire Kingdoms or Baronies (the land in which the SCA groups are found, its broken down into pieces with Kingdoms being the largest and the Stronghold/shire/ etc being the smallest). These households will run larger events control every aspect of some events right down to food stuffs. If you don't side with the right household, sometimes you find yourself without fighting partners in the mass melles. Also a lot of them push for Peerage (by winning tourneys, doing fantastic crafts like armouring, sewing, calligraphy etc), and it gets to be annoyance when I was getting harrassesed with "Who are you going to squire for" etc. There also tends to be some dislike between one household and another and I had friends in both, and was being told by white belts that I should choose a side and stick with it. Mind you the last time I had anything to do with the SCA was during Pennsic 40 when I taught a HEMA class there... which they scheduled during the Bridge Battle...
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Dec 14, 2018 19:35
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pat_b posted:Could you elaborate more? This is all very interesting. HEMA and SCA attract a lot of white supremacists. A lot. I was at HEMA social event a year or so ago and one of the newer guys kept making subtle racist comments and when he didn't get the agreement he wanted, he stopped attending practices and events. Luckily I'm in a club that nips that kind of poo poo in the bud really fast but it's a problem in the community.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:38
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Unzip and Attack posted:HEMA and SCA attract a lot of white supremacists. A lot. That's a whole thing right now in the SCA, too, and it's loving rough. I have all of this third-hand, as I'm not active there anymore, but they've updated their official core values and corpora to reflect their responses. quote:From the BoD: SCA Statement of Core Values In pursuing its mission, the SCA is committed to excellence in its programs, communications and activities and to ∙ act in accordance with the chivalric virtues of honor and service; ∙ value and respect the worth and dignity of all individuals; ∙ practice inclusiveness and respect pluralism and diversity; ∙ promote a safe and respectful environment for all SCA events; ∙ act with transparency, fairness, integrity and honesty; ∙ be a responsible steward of SCA resources; and, ∙ be committed to maintaining the trust of its members and participants. Since the Kings and Queens are decided through a tourney, there's nothing stopping someone who can swing a stick from becoming the nominal head of a Kingdom for a six month reign. Kings and queens get final say on granting peerages, and in some Kingdoms' bylaws can override the opinion of the rest of the peerage. It's happened twice this year. First, one Athanaric and Sigridr became the new royals of the Kingdom of Caid, which covers SoCal, Nevada, and Hawaii. They chose to wear outfits with matching swastika based trim with notable 'HH' symbols in their public persona as King and Queen. Swastikas of any sort in personal heraldry were banned nearly at the start of the SCA in 1966.  There's a pretty good breakdown of what happened next here, but to their credit the populace of Caid saw the photos, lost their collective poo poo, and the Board of Directors also censured them, so they stepped down by the end of the month. Amusingly the next Crown tourney held to fill the position of heirs as the present heirs stepped up to take over the abandoned thrones was won by Agrippa Morris, fighting for his consort Dawid Radzowycz. They took the throne in June, as one of the first sets of consorts of the same sex to do so in the SCA.  Then this fall... well, Trimaris (the kingdom that covers Florida)got a new king. Said king is openly alt-right in his personal views, heavily into homophobia, transphobia, and white supremacist dogwhistles in his public social media presence. That would be enough to make some people uncomfortable with him, but people are allowed to hold whatever political views they wish. This is also the same king that started this reign with a sectarian prayer as part of the coronation ceremony in direct violation of Society law, but somehow skirted by on it by calling it "voluntary". The program from the coronation:  As a response to people complaining about the prayer, he decided to appoint an openly racist friend of his to the Order of Defence (the rapier peerage), giving him the equivalent of a knighthood over the unanimous objections of the members of the Order. They planned to appoint another, who chose to turn down the offer because he saw how it would go. Two more said yes. One of those two does not even fight rapier, but is a rattan knight and friend of the king. In response, Davius St. Jacques, a well known Master of that order who happens to be black, tendered his resignation and a rather scathing statement. quote:“Let all who see these words know their Highnesses have accepted my Collar and White Scarf back. My Crown has shown me that their oatha of protection and fealty mean nothing to them and i can not in good conscience wear the trappings of an office they do not wish me or mine to perform. Know however, that the trappings of the office maketh not the man. A person can be given the right to wear the items of an order but it doesnt make one worthy of the order …. and neither does NOT wearing the trappings keep one from proving they ARE worthy… I plan to put all my effort into proving this. So if you see me, please take note that Don is the proper term of address for a member of the Order of the Golden Rapier which is the only Rapier Award i hold independent of the Kingdom of Trimaris. I love you guys , but this is a thing i feel o need to do. I can not serve a Crown that has broken its oaths to me. I WILL not bring glory to a Throne that openly mocks my Order and denigrates my service. Words by Davius Saint Jacques“ Here's his response:   People are still trying to convince the Board to kick him out of the Society for repeated breaches of the corpora involving hate speech and forcing members to participate in a religious ritual at an SCA event. So yeah, politics.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:29
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Unzip and Attack posted:HEMA and SCA attract a lot of white supremacists. A lot. I'll be honest, when I was in, I never saw that in the SCA. Then again, being a non-white, maybe I'm just used to it? As for HEMA, I guess being in the North East and mostly working with folks in the NY, NJ, MD, VA and PA areas, I have NEVER seen racism. Not once. My clubs simply do not tolerate that bullshit and its something I make quite clear the first time you show up for class. No racism, sexism or any other of that loving bullshit. And so far, its been great. For a long time my club was 50% men and 50% women. We had a great time fighting together. Then I read the rest of the post, and I'm ashamed that this kind of poo poo exists in today's world... EvilMerlin fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Dec 14, 2018 |
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Dec 14, 2018 20:39
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To be fair, I never saw any of that while I was active, although I did see a lot of sexism. Didn't help that Calontir didn't do rapier at all back then, so if you wanted to fight it was heavy or bust, and few women wanted to put up with some of the cads in order to fight.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:44
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Liquid Communism posted:To be fair, I never saw any of that while I was active, although I did see a lot of sexism. Didn't help that Calontir didn't do rapier at all back then, so if you wanted to fight it was heavy or bust, and few women wanted to put up with some of the cads in order to fight. Sexism was prevalent in the 1990's and died out rather quickly in the East by the mid 2000's from what I saw. Especially as more and more women got into winning Rapier and Cut/Slash. Like tore it up for a few years. The Heavy Lists up here are still almost devoid of female fighters.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:46
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EvilMerlin posted:Sexism was prevalent in the 1990's and died out rather quickly in the East by the mid 2000's from what I saw. Especially as more and more women got into winning Rapier and Cut/Slash. Like tore it up for a few years. I didn’t know you were in the east as well - I’m in central NJ. I haven’t found any HEMA groups to learn from yet except one but it’s on Friday nights and I can’t make that work regularly with my schedule so I’m still practicing alone. However I’d be really interested in watching others at tournaments or any other relevant stuff in the area - is there a place online that lists events and when they are happening around here? The only thing even remotely related I’ve ever been to here is the NJ Renaissance Faire and that was before I knew HEMA existed but I’d love to watch other people do their thing at tournaments if there are any within a decent driving distance.
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Dec 14, 2018 23:50
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I am incredibly envious of you all. I wanted to pick up HEMA, but it is virtually nonexistent in Maryland. I drove to a class in VA once, but a 2 hour drive on a weekday is a bit much...
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Dec 15, 2018 15:39
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Liquid Communism posted:
Pretty loving scummy post, and so is the article. For starters, that's not there personal heraldry, and anyone who knows anything about the SCA knows that - including you and the person writing the article. So since it was completely irrelevant - and not part of the ban - there was no reason to mention it unless you're deliberately trying to poo poo stir and imply that they're nazis. Which you are, because you're a pathetic little person. They explicitly stated that the outfit was based off of a historical trim - which not only was, but the article blatantly acknowledges before trying to immediately brush it under the rug with the same bullshit about heraldry that I just mentioned. quote:Their apology hinges upon two things: first, that the reproduction is an accurate reproduction of historical art, and second, that they did not mean offense by wearing it. So 1) The HH is not "heil hitler" as the article tries to claim at the beginning. The only way you could make the argument is if you were completely ignorant of the history of the symbol - which, hint hint, started long before the loving Nazis appropriated that poo poo, and was used in - you guessed it - the same time periods that the SCA covers. Wow! Incredible! It's almost like these things existed before Hitler. Secondly, even if you wanted to argue that they put the HH in there as a sneaky nod to Hitler (they didn't), it was in the loving design to begin with. They just copied the design, they didn't add it in, there's no hidden message. 2) The swastika was used long before Hitler ever appropriated it. You could argue that it could be used to secretly flash white power messages or something - or you could accept that something that was used for thousands of years was ruined very briefly by a single regime, acknowledge that it had a place in history, and allow it to be used - not blatantly, not without limit or reason - but as a reproduction of actual history, the thing the SCA is supposed to stand for. I'll acknowledge that I don't personally think now is a great time to be trying to reclaim the swastika from the Nazis (or maybe it is? maybe it's better to banish it from them then allowing them to skulk over it like the spectre of Hitler reborn), but trying to imply these guys were Nazis because they lifted a literal historical design from a historical artifact, and then twist it to accuse them of trying to sneak in "Heil Hitler" is loving disgusting. quote:Then this fall... well, Trimaris (the kingdom that covers Florida)got a new king. Said king is openly alt-right in his personal views, heavily into homophobia, transphobia, and white supremacist dogwhistles in his public social media presence. That would be enough to make some people uncomfortable with him, but people are allowed to hold whatever political views they wish. This is also the same king that started this reign with a sectarian prayer as part of the coronation ceremony in direct violation of Society law, but somehow skirted by on it by calling it "voluntary". Who gives a poo poo about the prayer that it was started with. Cringy? Yeah. Against the rules? Oh yeah. But in the fact of you claiming "Said king is openly alt-right in his personal views, heavily into homophobia, transphobia, and white supremacist dogwhistles in his public social media presence." you'd think you'd actually be able to provide some evidence of that. Both I and my friends have asked people to provide examples of this, back when it all happened, and the only answer we got was "well just check his facebook profile it's obvious". So we all took a scroll through his facebook page and found nothing that falls under that category for any reasonable person. Pretty standard conservative stuff, but nothing that could be construed as "racist, altright, homophobic, or transphobic" unless you were the kind of screaming far leftist that would have made Marx go "woah back up a second buddy". Since the article you posted was written by the exact same dogshit writer that did the first one, I think it's pretty safe to conclude that it's a bunch of bullshit. One would think if there was actually anything obvious or significant, it would have been posted - either by you, or by the article writer - and since nothing was, I highly suspect - especially since I saw nothing - that there was nothing of substance, they merely made the claim because the man was right-wing and the average leftist scrolling through his facebook would go "oh yeah sounds probable" and click away without finding anything. Basically you, and the article writer, are the kind of screaming, obnoxious politics I hate about the SCA. Loud noise without any thought behind it, running down people who oppose whatever your political beliefs are without anything other than mob outrage to back it up, accusations of racism and whatever xxx-phobia possible without any evidence provided. The deal with Caid is the first proof of that, and that both you (and that article writer) are the kind of outrage-based social justice activism that people are getting so tired of. I'll close by saying that none of this means that I don't think there could be a white-supremacy wannabe movement in the SCA. I'm sure there are people like that. I've never seen any, but I do rapier and not heavy, so I'm mostly insulated from moron with traumatic blunt force brain damage. But both of the examples you provided are terrible evidence of any of that, and - like I said before - the fact that you couldn't actually provide anything better than deliberately twisting a historical pattern and accusing people without proof makes me suspect that it's not as widespread as people like you would like it to be. Given the propensity of goons - and people like them - to start screaming Nazi at anyone that disagrees with them (I saw goons in the Tinder thread calling centrist Democrats Nazis lmfao), I'm going to keep assuming that's whats happening until hard proof is provided.
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Dec 16, 2018 04:50
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Hey guys, I've been thinking about starting my own historical fighting club, but I want my club to stand out! I've been thinking about maybe having some radical uniform or face-paint; how about everyone paints their face black, like they did in the Netherlands? Also, I really love these old sun symbols, so I've been thinking about using them as our official logo, perhaps in black, white and red; really make it pop! As for the period we want to study, how does 1488 sound? I dunno, but that number just speaks to me.
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Dec 16, 2018 13:34
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I gotta say a paragraphs long screed about those evil Marxist SJWs is not really convincing me the people wearing swastikas out and about in public in 2018 aren't Nazis.
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Dec 16, 2018 14:30
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feedmegin posted:I gotta say a paragraphs long screed about those evil Marxist SJWs is not really convincing me the people wearing swastikas out and about in public in 2018 aren't Nazis. You could try reading the post to actually understand, but since you responded with a tl;dr in the year of our lord 2018, you might not be smart enough.
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Dec 16, 2018 15:24
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Counterpoint: Wearing a costume, post 1944, embroidered with HH and swastikas, and claiming historical ignorance/naivety is
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Dec 16, 2018 15:46
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inscrutable horse posted:Counterpoint: Wearing a costume, post 1944, embroidered with HH and swastikas, and claiming historical ignorance/naivety is I don't think it's a good idea, but what's disingenuous is the article flat out saying they were putting Hell Hitler on their outfit when the Hs were part of the original design. Like they said themselves - they thought it was divorced enough from negative context (due to being an actual literal historical pattern) that they thought it would be fine. Stupid, sure. But trying to make them out to be nazis is some gross poo poo.
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Dec 16, 2018 16:23
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your friend a dog posted:I don't think it's a good idea, but Is not a good way to start a defense of people wearing paraphernalia emblazoned with Nazi symbology. I mean, if you don't want people to think you might be a Nazi sympathizer then don't wear Nazi poo poo. This isn't the 90s and people claiming it's just a big misunderstanding should be met with skepticism. The hobby already has a reputation for being friendly toward fascist and racist groups, so if anything we as practitioners need to be extremely on guard against anything that supports those negative connotations.
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Dec 16, 2018 17:16
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Unzip and Attack posted:Is not a good way to start a defense of people wearing paraphernalia emblazoned with Nazi symbology. The proper response to something you don't think is appropriate is not to start deliberately twisting facts and insinuating (well, let's be honest - in this case, flat out calling) people are nazis.
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Dec 16, 2018 17:23
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Unless you are literally a space alien, you can't honestly claim that your costume embroidered with swastikas and HHs doesn't recall the loving Third Reich and its associated atrocities, above and beyond any other historical connotations. To claim otherwise is dishonest to the extreme. Unless you are a native of the Sentinel Islands, you don't get to say that "Oh, I thought the Nazi genocides were water under the bridge by now". These people live in the US, and have had access to untold amounts of information and stories of the Holocaust; their excuses are feeble and insulting. Christ, of all the hills to die on, what on earth made you choose this one?!
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Dec 16, 2018 18:12
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inscrutable horse posted:Unless you are literally a space alien, you can't honestly claim that your costume embroidered with swastikas and HHs doesn't recall the loving Third Reich and its associated atrocities, above and beyond any other historical connotations. To claim otherwise is dishonest to the extreme. Unless you are a native of the Sentinel Islands, you don't get to say that "Oh, I thought the Nazi genocides were water under the bridge by now". These people live in the US, and have had access to untold amounts of information and stories of the Holocaust; their excuses are feeble and insulting. You realize that this was a historical pattern, right? And the Hs don't stand for hail Hitler? The Nazis appropriated a lot of poo poo, you can't start purging history just because someone used it for something bad thousands of years later. These are historical hobbyists. They tend to get excited about poo poo they find without thinking it through all the way. Calling them Nazis for using a real pattern from thousands of years is disgusting and disengenuous. your friend a dog fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Dec 16, 2018 |
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Dec 16, 2018 18:42
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For the person up thread that asked about this problem in the community and some examples of it, this is a pretty appropriate snapshot. "Hey you shouldn't wear those symbols that are associated with extreme racism and if you do people will suspect that you harbor racist ideas" is a controversial statement in SCA/HEMA.
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Dec 16, 2018 18:48
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Unzip and Attack posted:For the person up thread that asked about this problem in the community and some examples of it, this is a pretty appropriate snapshot. Nah,. blatantly calling people Nazis and saying they embroider heil hitler on their clothing is controversial. E: and fortunately, bc it stops kneejerk reactionaries like.you and lightning knight from gaining power. I live in a super liberal state and even then, while kingdom SCA people thought that it was probably a good idea not to wear those symbols, historicity or no, no one thought the king/queen were bad people, and a lot of people were concerned about modern events being used to color purely historical stuff. The Nazis appropriated a gently caress ton of Norse culture. Is every Vikings fan who thinks runes is cool a nazi now? your friend a dog fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Dec 16, 2018 |
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Dec 16, 2018 18:57
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your friend a dog posted:The Nazis appropriated a gently caress ton of Norse culture. Is every Vikings fan who thinks runes is cool a nazi now? If the runes they like are 'SS' then people are going to give them side eye, yeah. That this needs to be explained to you kind of boggles my mind tbh. It certainly doesn't encourage me to go within a mile of the SCA.
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Dec 16, 2018 19:10
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No, you nitwit, a Vikings fan is not automatically a goosestepping storm-trooper of the Reich, nor were the Viking space probes an attempt to spread the light of Nazism beyond the cruel confines of our atmosphere. That's because, outside of isolated neo-Nazi subcultures, the Nazis weren't all that successful in appropriating Old Norse culture. But guess where they were successful?! That's right, in associating the swastika and HH with their ideology - and guess which symbols people have issues with! Someone call the physicists at CERN, because we've finally managed to create something denser than the core of a neutron star, right here on Earth!
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Dec 16, 2018 19:12
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feedmegin posted:If the runes they like are 'SS' then people are going to give them side eye, yeah. That this needs to be explained to you kind of boggles my mind tbh. It certainly doesn't encourage me to go within a mile of the SCA. You realize they used more runes than that and HH, right?
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Dec 16, 2018 19:13
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inscrutable horse posted:No, you nitwit, a Vikings fan is not automatically a goosestepping storm-trooper of the Reich, nor were the Viking space probes an attempt to spread the light of Nazism beyond the cruel confines of our atmosphere. That's because, outside of isolated neo-Nazi subcultures, the Nazis weren't all that successful in appropriating Old Norse culture. But guess where they were successful?! That's right, in associating the swastika and HH with their ideology - and guess which symbols people have issues with! So in other words you care more about whatever popular history of Nazism has trickled down to you. You're not offended by the reality, just what you think popular culture knows about it. Interesting take.
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Dec 16, 2018 19:14
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feedmegin posted:It certainly doesn't encourage me to go within a mile of the SCA.
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Dec 16, 2018 19:41
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HEY GUNS posted:the weapons they hit one another with are not real It's more the people I'd be hanging out with than the weapons, tbh.
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Dec 16, 2018 20:04
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HEY GUNS posted:the weapons they hit one another with are not real Only the heavies, which brings me to the real problem with the royalty system: in a supposedly historical society that prides themselves on accuracy, their highest office is determined by lovely stick fighting that's literally one level above boffers.
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Dec 16, 2018 20:07
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SoldadoDeTone posted:I am incredibly envious of you all. I wanted to pick up HEMA, but it is virtually nonexistent in Maryland. I drove to a class in VA once, but a 2 hour drive on a weekday is a bit much...
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Dec 16, 2018 20:55
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Over time words and symbols can take on a new meaning, for better or worse. I’m into Buddhism so I get the defense that the swastika is not just about Hitler. However, the very long history of the swastika has been essentially erased in the minds of most people because that symbol represents killing millions of people in death camps among other things. There’s no going back from that - in some places, like temples, homes and so on I’m sure people can still appreciate it for what it was but the symbolism has completely shifted to being a Nazi symbol and that’s all there is to it. Put HH next to it and even if it was a picture representation of something out of pre Nazi history and you will certainly get people calling you a Nazi if you wear it and present it publicly, and there is a good reason to guess that the person doing so believes in those values. Or they are so autistic that they expect to tell everyone “well ACTUALLY” *pushes up glasses* “the history of the symbols” blah blah blah. Don’t get me wrong, I wish it wasn’t like that (and there is a time and place for that history) but it is, and even with me respecting that history I think anyone who chooses to wear or present that is a probably a Nazi sympathizer. There are way more of them than there are people dense enough to not see that as a problem in how it would be perceived and if then you were to dig into that person’s life and they are posting alt right poo poo as well? It’s possible but extremely unlikely that someone with that background chose that with no intention of the more modern meaning and is using the history as a very thin justification to do it.
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Dec 16, 2018 23:53
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inscrutable horse posted:Hey guys, I've been thinking about starting my own historical fighting club, but I want my club to stand out! I've been thinking about maybe having some radical uniform or face-paint; how about everyone paints their face black, like they did in the Netherlands? Also, I really love these old sun symbols, so I've been thinking about using them as our official logo, perhaps in black, white and red; really make it pop! As for the period we want to study, how does 1488 sound? I dunno, but that number just speaks to me. Yeee ouchhh....
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Dec 17, 2018 00:27
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EvilMerlin posted:Yeee ouchhh.... Nonono, it’s totally cool because it’s historical, and we’re super excited about it! Jeez, I don’t see why you’d bust my balls over this - it’s not our fault a few extremists did some bad stuff later on, which gave it all a (wholly undeserved) bad reputation! Hey your friend a dog, back me up here!
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Dec 17, 2018 00:40
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Lol that's totally the same as calling people white supremacists and saying that they embroidered hail Hitler into their clothes when all they did was use a historical pattern I don't think it was smart to use the pattern, but these, again, are history nerds. They have a tendency to see something cool and jump on it without really thinking of the consequences. That's basically what their apology boils down into - a sad little "we found this pattern and thought it was distinct enough that it wouldn't cause trouble". Using that to call them an example of the white supremacist problem in the SCa or Nazis is disgusting, and what both the original article and lightning knight were doing. They're not bad people, they're history nerds that made a dumb mistake. your friend a dog fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Dec 17, 2018 |
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Dec 17, 2018 00:51
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Of course, in order to understand that concept, you'd actually have to realize that the design has history from far before the Nazis. Hence the original post, and hence their apology.
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Dec 17, 2018 00:52
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Can we kindly keep the Nazi bull poo poo out of this thread please. If you wanna make a thread about the far-right in the SCA, go right ahead.
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Dec 17, 2018 04:05
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rio posted:I didn’t know you were in the east as well - I’m in central NJ. I haven’t found any HEMA groups to learn from yet except one but it’s on Friday nights and I can’t make that work regularly with my schedule so I’m still practicing alone. However I’d be really interested in watching others at tournaments or any other relevant stuff in the area - is there a place online that lists events and when they are happening around here? The only thing even remotely related I’ve ever been to here is the NJ Renaissance Faire and that was before I knew HEMA existed but I’d love to watch other people do their thing at tournaments if there are any within a decent driving distance. I know a group in Jersey city if you’re down for the commute, and I think there’s at least one other (northern) jersey group as well. Let me know and I’ll put you in touch. your friend a dog posted:*really obvious bad faith arguments* Lol. It’s important to note that Your Friend A Dog Whistle has been probated/banned more times than I care to count for blatant racism (take a peak at his post history), and routinely argued against you if you brought up the obvious examples of racism within the hema/sca communities. Really glad he’s perma’d. Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 27, 2019 15:23
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