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Gideon020 posted:Outta curiosity, is this taking place in the same universe as a certain group of Hayard-Gunes?
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Jan 14, 2019 09:54
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Vando posted:You mean the Hayard-Güniverse? That's the one !
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Jan 14, 2019 10:10
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Gideon020 posted:Outta curiosity, is this taking place in the same universe as a certain group of Hayard-Gunes? I didn't intend it to be. Just a diversion to keep me in the loop without getting burned out.
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Jan 14, 2019 14:09
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sincx fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jan 15, 2019 00:11
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I love that Val Helmethead has waited three months for this moment.
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Jan 15, 2019 19:36
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Have to admit, when we lost the Yasen I almost counted this unwinnable.
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Jan 16, 2019 02:29
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A nail-biter finish. Great work to everyone on both sides, and especially to Yooper for doing all this!
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Jan 16, 2019 02:34
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I demand vengeance! Arm the E-767s with nuclear payloads! Glass the loving island, you bastards!
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Jan 16, 2019 02:36
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Well, that was absolutely awesome and I'm really glad it ended exactly the way it did. It'd make a good movie as long as someone cut out the 15 hours in the middle where everyone just sort of farted around.
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Jan 16, 2019 02:37
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I was really bummed that I got detected and Bear'd. I was in an almost perfect position to intercept the convoy and get torpedoes on them until then. Ah well. Still, great game everyone, photo finish for sure. I wish I could've seen the look on Aphid's face when he realized I was tracking him throughout that whole goddamn sprint.
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Jan 16, 2019 02:45
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Blast it all, good game to the Russians. Congrats on the victory.
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Jan 16, 2019 03:08
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HOLY poo poo WHAT A GAME. As the person who pushed hardest for the first turn strafing run, I enjoyed this the entire way along. Even though you killed all my pilots.
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Jan 16, 2019 03:41
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That was an amazing round and a great LP. Still a little sad that my plan to use the Kashalot as a SAM battery didn't quite pan out, but the Bear getting the Eagle kill was awesome.
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Jan 16, 2019 03:51
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This was great Fun especially the Ace combat esque fight over the sea of okhotsk and the pacific
Tythas fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jan 16, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 05:18
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Tythas posted:This was great Fun especially the Ace combat esque fight over the sea of okhotsk and the pacific It never ceases to amaze me that for all of its groginess and emphasis on realism, Strike Commander's engine is probably the best possible way to simulate the massive and chaotic dogfights that are hallmarks of Ace Combat missions.
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Jan 16, 2019 05:36
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Dr. Snark posted:It never ceases to amaze me that for all of its groginess and emphasis on realism, Strike Commander's engine is probably the best possible way to simulate the massive and chaotic dogfights that are hallmarks of Ace Combat missions. I am gunna assume you mean CMANO's Engine, and yes CMANO is perfect for that Edit: That came off more assholish than I meant. I would love for someone to make an ace combat like scenario or campaign in CMANO Tythas fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Jan 16, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 05:43
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Here's my post-mortem including a lot of strategy talk and scenario design commentary. I've only briefly skimmed the Japanese thread so I'm probably missing a lot of depth on their moves. Introducing the Russian Team: Air and Naval Command: HabeasDorkus - The hotheaded commander of Iturup airbase and, technically, the theatre commander, although we shared strategic decision-making among our entire team. The radar strafe was his brainchild, and his fondness for gambits and all-in plays was clear throughout his command, right up until they were slaughtered in the first big air battle over the Sea of Okhotsk. Was fairly consistent in wanting to oppose enemy air presence, while FrangibleCover and TheDemon were willing to concede it if necessary. FrangibleCover - The cool-headed commander at Yelizovo, he gave us the Pacific gambit and accompanying maskirovka at the start of the scenario, and also kept up the deception that we had a bottomless pit of lovely planes (post-mortem apparently the Japanese thought the Foxhound was awesome and deadly, which is the opposite of how we felt about it), which meant we kept air superiority over the entire submarine engagement. A bit hot and cold on gambits he'd play, to varying results, but always trying to send misleading signals to the enemy. He also was responsible for our aerial sub-hunting and our AEW use, and gave many interviews to the Russian press. TheDemon - Originally a strategic and tactical advisory role, but was shifted to command Dolinsk-Sokol to replace Dylguy just one turn before the air battle went hot. Will possibly be known in history for breaking the F-15's undefeated streak in air-to-air. As tactical adviser for the entire team, helped check that our tactical plays would work and furnished the team with an understanding of our weapons and the potential capabilities of the opposing side. DandyWalken - The convoy commander on the FFG Sovershennyy whose main role was to hope everyone else didn't gently caress it up. Was an active contributor to strategic discussions. Submarine Command: koolkzev666 - Commanded the two Kilos Nurlat and Mogocha and the Akula-class Vepr until about the point of the big air battle. HabeasDorkus (again) - As theatre commander, commanded the Kilo-class Nurlat and the Akula-class Vepr after koolkzev666 bowed out. Aphid Licker - The commander of our lead Akula-class Bratsk, mostly know for dashing around at full speed and miraculously not getting shot for it. Arrived in the end zone first thanks to this. Was privy to most strategic planning but mostly stuck to plays with his own submarine. Cling-Wrap Condom - Originally commanded the Akula-class Kashalot before needing to bow out. TriggerHappyPilot - Originally the commander of our Yasen-class Severodvinsk, he was ingloriously sunk with all 32 Onyx missiles on board trying to sprint to the Pacific from his start location. To be honest we thought sinking the Yasen early would break our strategy, but we managed to pull out a miracle in the air battle. His clone commanded the Akula-class Kashalot after Cling-Wrap Condom bowed out. Was an active contributor to the strategic planning on Discord. Stago Lego - A surly submarine captain of the Oscar II-class Tver, with a penchant for crazy Ivans and doing his own thing. His primary contribution was to tell his crew to FIRE ZE MISSILES when he received the order and bearing on his Extreme-Low-Frequency radio. Claimed over 600 Japanese lives. Opening Strategy The two biggest early calls were to commit to a Pacific route for the convoy while maintaining heavy patrols in the Sea of Okhotsk as a deception, and to strafe the radars at start-of-scenario. Honestly I don't think strafing the radars had too much of an impact (as we had ARMs too that we could have used), but the Pacific gambit factored heavily. Additionally, I ran a series of tests on the Yasen's P-800s to determine if closing Chitose was viable (it wasn't) or if not, what was the best use for these 32 incredibly powerful missiles. With this information THP decided to make a run to the deep Pacific so as to get a good shot at Hachinohe, or to disrupt the CAP, as those were our best uses of the weapon. Air command was busy panicking over the difficulties in fighting the Type 99 missile. We figured most of our planes would end up spent in a climactic battle to protect the convoy at the end of the scenario. Early plans suggested we would have to surrender air superiority if the Japanese made a play for it. We also were ready to shoot our 32 P-800s and 24 P-700s to force the opposing CAP to spend missiles shooting them down, as this seemed our best shot at killing a strong F-15J CAP. Handling the F-15J was by far the biggest challenge in the scenario. Keep in mind at this time we didn't really understand the nature of the ASW effort. We also had absolutely zero idea that the Japanese could not use Surge Ops. Had this information been provided in the briefing or had we managed to deduce it at a later point, we would likely have pursued an entirely different strategy with far more attention to fuel and missile attrition. I would say the success of the radar strafe emboldened the team that we could actually pull fast ones off on the opposing teams. Had it failed we might have developed a more conservative mindset. Early Development Habeas spent a few planes feeling out our (in)ability to contest the air (post-mortem seems this actually managed to protect a bear which was probably worth), while the bears and foxhound patrols slid into position. As the boats showed up we weren't sure why the aggressive play. That said, testing made us confident our missiles could handle a test group (a Murasame and two Asagiris). We lost a Kilo because we forgot they ran on batteries. That was embarrassing, but not as bad as losing the Yasen without a return kill, and sending those 32 crucial missiles to the bottom. As this was key to our eagle-breaking plan morale was shook. At this point I began testing how to contest the skies with what we had and no micromanagement, although I kept this information close to the chest because matching the tactics I had developed was possible according to testing. Thankfully we learned how good air superiority was in ASW right after, managing to avenge both subs with bears. This also was the start of our very unrealistic combined-ops ASW strategy. We called our communication with the submarines and between our various weapons systems the ansible, after the fictional faster-than-light communications device. Basically, the bear or a creeping sub could get a MAD or passive sonar hit from in close, and then a trailing Akula could fire a rocket torpedo on top of the enemy without them even realizing what was coming. The passive sonar boat could maneuver away without giving itself away. This only happened once but it was hilarious to see in action. Mostly we just got MAD hits and torpedoed them from the air. At this point our strategic priority shifted to ensuring our ASW operation could continue, and we imagined that the Japanese wanted it to be ended given its effectiveness. Also given their probing northwards with eagles. Lines were drawn on the map where we'd attempt to trap any contesting aircraft in a close-quarters brawl, as this would give us about even odds if we could get in close... although we'd more likely get totally slaughtered inbound. I was shifted to Dolinsk-Sokol at this time and gave some contingent orders to support the foxhound squadrons if enemy planes were engaged on them. The key to the operation was to come late to the party and fire many missiles to disable late return fire. At this point we thought we were only facing the 4-6 eagles we saw in the barcap. The situation quickly spiraled out of control. As 13 eagles looked committed, along with 8 Foxhounds and 11 MiG-27s/SU-33s already engaged, I committed my entire force of 9 SU-27s. WRA: 3 rounds per aircraft, with "peel-off" orders as the missiles were fired (through doctrine, making it microless). This hopefully saved several aircraft from getting re-engaged on. I had noticed I had modern defensive jammers, which meant in testing Type 99s were sometimes evaded. On regular WRA the eagles seemed fairly contemptuous of the SU-27s and would only fire 2 rounds. Meanwhile 3 rounds confirmed the kill most of the time. Factors outside our control turned this "most" into "all" in the actual engagement. We were fairly incredulous at the scenario designer for putting the Japanese F-15Js under "cadet" pilots, which is ridiculous as the JASDF is one of the best fighter forces in the world. When the smoke cleared we had annihilated 14 eagles for only 4 SU-27 lost (+1 lost in the strafe earlier), although we had mulchled our entire lesser force. Unknown to the Japanese I had 2 more damaged SU-27, leaving me with 3 operational planes. Unknown to me, we had mission-killed much of the Japanese eagle force due to both the 14 dead and the "no surge ops" rule. Regardless, we were almost unbearably smug about this in our thread and Discord when the update broke, as we had achieved something we had thought was impossible and soundly trounced the F-15J in air-to-air. I started simulations to defeat a strike of ~12 phantoms with only 3 flankers. It didn't seem easy. Midgame Just before the big air battle our command staff had coalesced around Habeas, Frangible, and I. THP, Aphid, and Dandywalken provided input but us air commanders were the main strategic drivers. Thankfully that let us coordinate the air battle surprisingly well and we were able to hammer out what we needed to do to push our air superiority window to victory. Frangible was committed to maintaining his CAP in the middle of the Sea of Okhotsk as a necessary deception, and continued to feed foxhounds into it as the scenario progressed. We caught another sub basically at random with the MAD, and Aphid fired a RPK, giving us our first rocket torpedo kill and probably the first rocket torpedo kill in anger ever. Meanwhile our nuclear subs began the risky transit to the Pacific side. Strategic planning debated shaving the "dog-leg" off of the convoy path as we had done our best in the air and ramming the convoy home faster seemed a better option. Originally we had planned to take the convoy out deep into the Pacific to keep it off the radar for as long as possible. The final decision wasn't made until very late, but we eventually did call off the dog-leg in favor of a Pacific-side Kurils run. The opposing surface action group was detected again making a run on Iturup. We did not have its composition, but the idea that we had zero defenses against bombardment came up. Fortunately, in some kind of miracle of zigs and zags Stago Lego's Oscar was perfectly positioned, giving his Granits a perfect run down Iturup itself in the island's radar shadow. We assigned contingencies to detect the boats with our A-50 and with a Bear on opposite sides of Iturup if they slipped out of the A-50's range. They did slip our radar when they ducked behind Iturup, but the Granit was good enough to engage anyway, and much as we had no detection I presuming coming over Iturup's mountain at <5nm was super deadly with a sea-skimming missile. In the aftermath we figured out the composition was likely a Hatsuyuki and two Abukuma, which have barely any missile defenses, but it's not like there are other assets we could have fired Granits at other than to try to distract fighters. Also, some of those ships are literally decommissioned. What the heck scenario designer? We managed to bite off the two-eagle CAP that was pushing us a bit but the plan didn't call for the all-in engagement Yooper delivered, so to be honest we weren't very happy with the result. I would have at least liked to stay on the AEW as we were already sunk costed into a full engagement but the contingency said to abort. Of course the other contingency was to abort the entire strike which didn't occur. Endgame Aphid managed to complete his dash into the convoy goal area without being engaged. I was very surprised by this, but was confident he had at least been detected as you only have to pass into one 30nm convergence zone to draw attention. The poking with the Wedgetail more or less confirmed to us that our convoy had been spotted. We scrambled to find an air defense strategy that could kill the 6-12 eagles we estimated Japan might still have. I invented a forward defense that would hopefully let us slip SU-27s into the eagles from the side, tangle them up, and let us hit the phantoms while tangled. It was mostly hope and prayer, because we knew everything came down to eagle count. Note that SU-27s don't have refueling, so we had to reserve them on the ground until very late or until we saw something we could shoot. The random torpedo drops were to spook subs into going defensive, on reading post-mortem it doesn't look like we did, we probably hit a whale. On the other hand, the Soryu we got on turn 27 was spotted in a CZ, and air superiority once again let us punch it out. It was also then we discovered how silly our gecko launchers were, with a 6 second reload from the magazine. What the heck CMANO DB? As the Japanese appeared to be holding their strike until the last possible minute changes were made to the air plan to get a SU-27 CAP up, the idea being that the SU-27s would try to clear eagles and then the foxhounds would slam phantoms. We speculated that had to be something we were missing as to why the Japanese didn't clear the air much sooner, as it had been well over 5 hours since we last saw an eagle. Maybe they didn't have many eagles? Maybe they had very limited A2A ammo? Turned out it was the 20 hour surge ops limit. Had we known about that or deduced it the best move could have been to slam the convoy on a direct route the moment we won the air battle. That might have gotten us eaten by subs, so maybe this was for the best. The plan both worked and didn't work, the SU-27s did tie up some eagles but the most eagles that was ever meant to deal with is 6 or so and Japan had patiently waited for more. The Foxhounds got snookered by the P-3 group which was less of a threat than the Phantoms, but the Japanese tripped over the S-300 and took a suboptimal AShM engagement within range of land-based anti-missile batteries. Even 10 minutes earlier could have been deadlier. I suspect the reason we got average victory while losing 6 is because at least 1 of those lost arrived in the endzone and got killed after the fact. In the end I think we got lucky just enough times and were good enough just enough times to eek out a win. Miss one more sub and the whole convoy goes to the bottom. They make the call on killing Aphid and we might not ever make it to the Pacific side with our 3 subs. Kill less eagles in the big battle and the Japanese can spend a few to clear our bears out in the midgame. Have an extra 10 minutes on the eagle timer and they can launch early enough to avoid the S-300. Pick a 1h slower route or keep on convoy regrouping and we'd get slammed by eagles in the end. On the other hand, kill the last sub and we get a major victory. Yasen survives and there might not be any P-3s and so our foxhounds would spend themselves on something more useful, or possibly the missiles might bait F-15J shots at the end. Turn off convoy regrouping early on and we might get to the goal with only 6 eagles to contest. So it worked out in many ways to be just on a razor's edge. Scenario Evaluation I have many, many complaints with this scenario, but keep in mind it isn't designed for PvP. As a single-player scenario I still would appreciate some of these changes, but perfect side balance isn't necessary. Scenario Design Issues: - No ROE. Both sides can go full hog all out warfare from the word go. This makes little sense as the briefing suggests that most of each sides forces are standing off in the Sea of Japan, so we aren't exactly going to Pearl Harbor Chitose with Onyx missiles without going beyond limited war elsewhere. - A ROE in each briefing and set up by default would be extremely helpful, as would a large number of civilian AND third party contacts. Explaining what kinds of risks are acceptable would go a long way to prevent shenanigans, or rather, to make shenanigans a large enough risk to consider carefully. For example, Chitose being an international airport might make it an unacceptable target, and then you could bring in the assets at Mikasa if the Russians strike it. There should probably be penalties to losing assets - maybe losing the whole Japanese surface group would be a score penalty that's balanced on how much of the convoy dies? Or flushing 40 fighters down the drain like the Russians have to do might push the score down enough that the victory would be qualified. - Under AI control, exclusion zones would mean more realistic target identification (and make managing civilian traffic easier), whereas under human control the "H" key is way too powerful. Both sides can basically free fire on MAD contacts (and contact their subs to do so) when realistically you are going to identify the target with sonar before marking it hostile so you don't accidentally an American nuke boat. This is also a reason why we need helicopter dipping sonar. Both sides should have plenty of ASW helicopters and those units should be available. - SUBS SHOULD BE NOCOMM. I can't emphasize this enough. It's a basic facet of submarine warfare in CMANO and having subs with magical ansible datalinks shouldn't be a thing in a submarine-focused scenario. When you can detect a sub on the Magnetic Anomaly Detector and then torpedo it with rocket torps from 35nm that reacquire upon another MAD hit, that's stupid. - I think the lack of surge ops for the Japanese is pretty silly. Interesting single player challenge, but terrible PvP and also terrible if you're the Russian player in single player. - Very little military intelligence in the briefing. For example, it's crucial to know that both sides are already operating submarines in the Sea of Ohkotosh and that contact can be expected within minutes to hours. It would be useful to explain aircraft movements by both sides in the lead-up to the conflict. For example, you could say that the MIG-29SMTs were a formation reconstituted of old Algerian Flankers due to the emergency and assigned to the VMF to justify their presence. If you get MIG-29Ks from the 100th OKAIP like the Japanese briefing suggests then referencing the Kunetsov makes sense, and should be done in both the Japanese and Russian briefings. A new version of the scenario could reference that the Kunetsov's dock sank and the fighters have nothing else to do. Inexplicable unit choices. These include: - Surplus Algerian MIG-29SMTs, but no good weapons on them. There are perfectly good MIG-29s that have usable weapon loadouts (Russian Navy MIG-29Ks for one), and the scenario even references their air group. But the MIG-29SMT isn't one of them. Honestly, this is a DB problem as much as a scenario problem, but the hard weapon limits of the scenario exacerbate it. - Anti-Radiation Missiles (ARMs) but no Anti-Ship missiles. Literally the only anti-ship assets the Russians have are their Oscar and Yasen submarines, other than the Kedge which are pretty worthless in the AShM role. Perhaps the Krypton Cs were meant to be Krypton As, but that would require a MIG-29K or SU-30s. If the Oscar and Yasen die, or if either missile barrage is intercepted, the Japanese surface group has total free reign. - SU-33s despite there being no carrier - the 279th is a shipborne regiment only. Note that the same would apply to MIG-29Ks but at least those make some sense due to loadout. Yeah, the Kunetsov is in refit (or now, disabled entirely) but tell me that in the Russian briefing or something! Why the Japanese get to know but the Russians don't is silly. - Lack of helicopters from both sides, which are crucial to ASW. There should be a full squad or more of helis on both sides. This would alleviate the issue that nothing but the MAD can detect Japanese submarines, and make contesting air superiority more important. - JASDF F-15Js are "Cadet" while all Russian units are "Regular" - why? The JASDF is one of the best fighter forces in the world. They really should be on equal footing with the VVS and VMF. - Japan's SAG includes literally decommissioned ships. This is inexplicable and either should be explained in the briefing or replaced with less horrifically outdated units. Adding a small number of Russian AShMs would let you escalate to units that can handle missiles to a small degree. - The submarine placement being right in range was impossible to know about without some meta deductions. Furthermore the Russian Kilos are useless unless you can predict exactly this. Unit Commentary: - The 10 SU-27s the Russian player has can essentially be expected to face all 30 F-15Js on their own. The MIG-29, MIG-31, and SU-33s with short-ranged SARH missiles (note that in CMANO, you won't get a SARH lock with Russian SARH until well within your weapon range) are essentially fodder for the Type 99 missiles the Japanese field. With extremely heavy micromanagement the SARH-slingers can go about 1 kill for 2 losses, 1:4 is realistic with basic micro, without micromanagement they will be wiped out. This is probably a fine challenge for the Russian in single player, no challenge at all for the Japanese in single player, and definitely unfair in PvP. - Replacing the MIG-29SMT with MIG-29K (and restricting their weapons, for example removing the AS-20 but leaving the AS-17) would solve this issue as it would equalize the number of usable aircraft at about 20 each with the Japanese having the superior platform and far superior missile (AAM-4B "Type 99" vs AA-12 "Adder B"). It would also enable the possibility of AShM strikes without making them broken, and you can set a long rearm and you'd be taking crucial aircraft off of the CAP. The SU-33s can be removed, and the MIG-31s remain in a "plentiful but difficult to wield" role given the long-range tanking necessary to deploy them and the extreme difficulty in using their anti-bomber missiles in a fighter engagement. - Note that the SU-27s are rebased from Dzemgi (5th Aviation Group 6983rd AFB), and that there are no MIG-29s in the Eastern Military District at all. Even 10 ready SU-27s at each of the two forward bases would make more sense as the 5th Aviation Group has 30. - The exact unit quantities can probably be massaged to be fair, and if so then the Japanese surge ops restriction can then be lifted. If the two parties can reasonably joust with ARM missiles, then a Japanese vs AI player can use their skills to come out on top, and they don't need a 20 hour turnaround handicap. - The Kilos need to be in a different position or replaced with something more modern. - Same for the Japanese SAG, it needs to be more modern. - Grishas are probably broken but that's a DB problem. - Some air defense on the Radars and Hokkaido coast, just basic stuff, although ROE would take care of this too. Conclusion: - Game was fun but felt really hard given how good the Type 99 was and how even one sub leaker kills the convoy very well. - Scenario should even up the asymmetric parts of the air battle. - Add helicopters. - Add NOCOM and civilian and 3rd party and ROE. This would make it a hell of a lot more interesting and force more measured play. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Jan 16, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 06:30
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This isn't over yet you Ruskie bastards! I have three E-767s loaded with nuclear warheads ready to kamikaze your lovely little island back to the Edo period! You can't get away with this!
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Jan 16, 2019 08:37
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I'm pretty sure we could have shot you down over the Pacific if Yooper had been a bit more aggressive with the disengage conditional 
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Jan 16, 2019 08:54
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I don't own the game so I don't know how it was programmed, but should the Bears have had so many MAD hits? What little I've read about them says MAD isn't great at detecting subs because they essentially need to fly directly over them. And can't modern subs undergo some sort of degaussing process like WW2 ships did? But that Eagle dying to the Bear's tail cannons? loving LOL. 
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Jan 16, 2019 11:15
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I agree, Neophyte. Which is why I have 3 E-767s loaded with armed thermonuclear warheads ready to suicide dive the loving landing zone for these Ruskie bastards! It's not over until it's over! And if we have to carve a new path in Earth's history just to do my comrades justice? Then so be it. Moscow can be the new center of anime on the globe.
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Jan 16, 2019 11:24
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My dash was about 50% trying to get to the end zone early, which may have sorta worked out since I seem to have gotten both RPK and sensor hits there in the last update so I did end up doing something, and half the suspicion that my horrid boat, which I love, was useful chiefly as a means to get someone to reveal their position by firing at it. I was having nervous breakdowns at a rate of like five per update throughout the sprint though and considered a couple times getting up in the middle of the night to give last-minute orders to drop to creep before Yooper could run the turn. I haven't read the Japan thread yet so idk how important my giving up the convoy route with the dash turned out being in the end but they knew where we were headed so overall no ragrets. I guess the alternative would have been to park the convoy while we do a proper quiet sweep and I'm glad we didn't do that because things dragged on a bit in the mid-game as-is. Wanna say thanks again to Yooper and all of Ruscrew, 5/5 would boat again with all of you.
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Jan 16, 2019 12:29
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Oh my loving god first thing I see as I open the JSDF thread is that the Japanese had FOUR boats starting out around our destination I'm screaming
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Jan 16, 2019 12:34
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It was really hard to not justify your nervous breakdowns
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Jan 16, 2019 12:44
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Radio Free Kobold posted:It was really hard to not justify your nervous breakdowns Is okay, had dashcam running  In the end isn't nothing else quite as quintessentially Russian as getting up to dangerous shenanigans? aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Jan 16, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 12:55
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A huge amount of credit goes to FrangibleCover and TheDemon for the Russian strategy. I'd follow those two, happily, in any future engagement.
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Jan 16, 2019 13:05
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Neophyte posted:I don't own the game so I don't know how it was programmed, but should the Bears have had so many MAD hits? What little I've read about them says MAD isn't great at detecting subs because they essentially need to fly directly over them. And can't modern subs undergo some sort of degaussing process like WW2 ships did? The Bears got so many MAD hits because Modern subs can undergo some sort of degaussing procedure and that is modelled in the game if they have it, which some of the Russian submarines do (The Yasen and I think some or all of the Akulas) or can be built entirely from titanium like the Alfa class were, which is ruinously expensive but makes them nonmagnetic and also hilariously strong. Many a CMANO player has watched in dismay as an air dropped torpedo hits an Alfa and it just motors on at 40 knots and blows up their whole convoy. Additionally, gently caress yeah Bears. They carried so hard and I'd command 310 OPLAP again in a heartbeat.
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Jan 16, 2019 14:51
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I am 100% up for a goon v goon rematch in a Yooper generated scenario where we can get up to hijinks like actual maskirovka and using what's actually on the field of play (like, the planes at Iturup were located at the old mid-cold war airbase instead of the much newer one, and I didn't have the option of starting two of my MiGs at the Kunashir airport for an even faster attack on the eastern radar stations. Also, if we have plenty of third parties, what happens when one side sinks an old DPRK Romeo? Or a Type 214? Or a Jin that didn't get out of the conflict area in time?! Having potential for AI intervention would really mess with our heads, if Russia could end up getting SK and Japan on the same side, or prompting the US to step in, or if the ROK decides they need to act and sends their own convoy to reinforce Dokdo/Takeshima with sea-denial assets. Or we could end up somewhere else in the world, for example a border war starting between Venezuela and one of their neighbors, where the planes and missiles wouldn't be quite so deadly and we could throw some real junk at each other.
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Jan 16, 2019 15:12
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habeasdorkus posted:I am 100% up for a goon v goon rematch in a Yooper generated scenario where we can get up to hijinks like actual maskirovka and using what's actually on the field of play (like, the planes at Iturup were located at the old mid-cold war airbase instead of the much newer one, and I didn't have the option of starting two of my MiGs at the Kunashir airport for an even faster attack on the eastern radar stations. One of my suggestions earlier in the thread was both of y'all picking up a Chinese SSN lurking in the area without being told there's someone else in the area and waiting to see if either side would attack the Chinese. Still, I don't blame Yooper for trying to keep things simple on the first outing. I felt before and still now that this is a very rough scenario for the Russians, but it's a first stab at running a scenario like this in this format, so some jankiness is only to be expected.
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Jan 16, 2019 15:24
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The 20 hour (really?!) cycle for the F-15s was a huge difference-maker. Convoy travel time was just shy of 26 hours. That meant the Japanese didn't have many options as to how they'd come at us... and once we won that initial engagement (even at the cost of all my poor
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Jan 16, 2019 15:50
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Hell Yeah, we did it! Thanks to the sacrifices of so many good men.
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Jan 16, 2019 16:54
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Yeah, the 20-hour cycle time on the Eagles means that, effectively, they're single-use assets and needed to be rationed accordingly. The Japanese side would really, really, really have benefited from having a tanker to keep a constant CAP flight airborne rather than exchanging them every so often. One thing that I think would have made a real difference there was if we had gotten eyes on the convoy really early on, like sprinting a suicide AWACS forward or a satellite pass or something just to get an idea of which area they're going for. Like, if we had figured out the Russians were going the pacific route in the early game we wouldn't have had to reshuffle our subs at the last minute which would have made a significant difference I think. As well, we didn't get eyes on the convoy until they were about four hours out; that was a big misplay I think and resulted in the sort of "okay just throw everything at it" scramble we had at the end. Both Oscar and I had to make 10 knot/3hr cruises to get into torpedo range which wound up being our downfall. Radio Free Kobold fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jan 16, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 17:00
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Radio Free Kobold posted:Yeah, the 20-hour cycle time on the Eagles means that, effectively, they're single-use assets and needed to be rationed accordingly. The Japanese side would really, really, really have benefited from having a tanker to keep a constant CAP flight airborne rather than exchanging them every so often. All of this is absolutely right, but you and Oscar weren't pinged by sonobuoys or sonar--you got detected by MAD, which slowing down wouldn't defend against.
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Jan 16, 2019 18:20
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Radio Free Kobold posted:Yeah, the 20-hour cycle time on the Eagles means that, effectively, they're single-use assets and needed to be rationed accordingly. The Japanese side would really, really, really have benefited from having a tanker to keep a constant CAP flight airborne rather than exchanging them every so often. Japan only has four tankers in real life, so it's a realistic issue. Whether any of the rest of the scenario is realistic is another question entirely.
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Jan 16, 2019 18:26
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Our only sonar worth anything at all went down with the Yasen  My submarine detection strategy for basically the entirety of the game was 100% "try to get someone to shoot at me".
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Jan 16, 2019 18:28
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TheDemon posted:- Some air defense on the Radars and Hokkaido coast, just basic stuff, although ROE would take care of this too. I agree that the scenario wasn't very well thought out overall and I'd add another thing to the list of changes: SSM Batteries on Iturup, Sakhalin and Kunashir instead of the Oscar. As was the Japanese SAG would have been able to run in and flatten Iturup uncontested had the Oscar not survived the initial clash which is simply ridiculous in reality. I'm not necessarily advocating the addition of the giant stack of Oniks they have in real life but a couple of Redut batteries wouldn't go amiss, Not enough to annihilate the SAG but enough to have a decent chance at sinking it. The Kunashir one would also be out of the SA-20's bubble meaning that with some proactive moves the Japanese player can hit it with GCS-1s from the Phantoms (note: add these to the magazines) and allow their SAG to break out into the Pacific if required. The absence of the Oscar means that the Russian player must preserve the Yasen, or else have to take on the SAG with MiGs, Kh-35s and eventually guns instead of simply waiting for it to stumble into the Oscar's five hundred thousand square nautical mile engagement envelope and then squashing it like a bug. We can assume the Pacific Fleet's Oscar force is being held back by command for use against the actual Japanese invasion fleet and their giant stack of AEGIS equipped destroyers instead of being released to clown on DEs.
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Jan 16, 2019 18:52
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Radio Free Kobold posted:Yeah, the 20-hour cycle time on the Eagles means that, effectively, they're single-use assets and needed to be rationed accordingly. The Japanese side would really, really, really have benefited from having a tanker to keep a constant CAP flight airborne rather than exchanging them every so often. I mean, we chose that convoy route because we thought it might make it difficult for you guys to re-position. And we did end up forcing you to dash in so if we had positioned one of our remaining Akulas on the SOO side of Urup we could have nailed you coming in - we didn't realize you guys were so slow I guess and thought you were all hanging out at Iturup already. So in that sense, the tactical choice to go Pacific was deliberately made and had the exact effect we thought it would, we just failed to exploit it.
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Jan 16, 2019 20:01
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Obviously the follow-up to this scenario should be the liberation of Hokkaido's oppressed Ainu population by way of a full-scale Russian invasion.
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Jan 16, 2019 23:21
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TheDemon posted:I mean, we chose that convoy route because we thought it might make it difficult for you guys to re-position. And we did end up forcing you to dash in so if we had positioned one of our remaining Akulas on the SOO side of Urup we could have nailed you coming in - we didn't realize you guys were so slow I guess and thought you were all hanging out at Iturup already.
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Jan 17, 2019 01:53
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 10:50 |
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That was awesome, thanks for running this Yooper, it was a blast to see! I'm really surprised by how effective the MAD was for the Russians, speaking with some of the P-3 guys at my squadron a lot of them have mentioned how...spotty the MAD can be, most of the time they just used it to mark the location of sunken ships off in the North Sea rather than actually find submarines.
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Jan 17, 2019 02:06
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