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Grevling posted:Thank you for the nutritional expertise, I just realized all those people posting in this thread were actually dead from not eating any meat. more hyperbole. i'm not suggesting veganism will kill you. merely wreck your long term health.
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May 25, 2019 10:26
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my stepdads beer posted:
"People have been wrong about nutrition in the past and therefore we should completely disregard everything accepted about nutrition today" sure is a take, but it explains how you come to brilliant conclusions like "vegetables and fibres are bad for you". my stepdads beer posted:depends how lazy. if you eat like your grandparents did and just eat meat with a couple of sides of veggies you'll be in great health. if you eat fast food, cereal and instant meals that's a different story. If you live in the western world (you do) you eat like three times more meat than your grandparents ever did. You clearly have very strong opinions about eating meat. That's fine. However, this opinion is not based on any kind of knowledge or facts. It is based on you wanting to eat meat. Again, that's fine. But please don't create bad pseudoscience to explain how not only do you enjoy eating meat, eating a loving ton of meat is in fact that only correct way to live.
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May 25, 2019 10:40
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where did this anti-fiber thing come from. I've seen it pop up a few times recently and its the most bizarre thing to be against. completely contradicted by consensus nutritional science too as far as i can tell
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May 25, 2019 16:24
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my stepdads beer posted:you haven't really engaged with me at all though, just called me a fucker and claimed I'm talking poo poo. This is the finest hypocrisy since you sagely declared that I have "metal issues" without engaging with me at all. Because you're either too stupid to recognize a joke, or too fixated on your preferred conclusion to accept that maybe, just maybe, someone can be vegan for over 20 years without suffering from the complete physical and mental breakdown you prefer to imagine would happen. Here's the thing, you are literally making the claim that I am unhealthy and/or dead, that I feel terrible, that I have run out of stored nutrients, and then you're surprised that I, the actual real person who actually feels fine, confident that I'm in above-average health for my age, would dare to assert that you don't know poo poo. To add stupid to already stupid, your evidence for your claim is assertions of biotruths nonsense that nobody in any sort of nutrition-related field wouldn't laugh at. You apparently believe the only effect of fiber is farts. Engaging with you would be exactly the same kind of pointless as engaging with a flat earther. And now I've just done it, maybe you're right, maybe my B12 is failing me because this was stupid as hell.
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May 25, 2019 16:58
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Squalid posted:where did this anti-fiber thing come from. I've seen it pop up a few times recently and its the most bizarre thing to be against. completely contradicted by consensus nutritional science too as far as i can tell Reactionaries like to make up pseudoscience to justify their nonsense, because they like to believe they are so rational and scientific. "We should really be eating less meat for environmental and ethical reasons" is a pretty pervasive message right now. It doesn't have to percolate long in a reactionary conservative's mind to become "actually, we should just eat meat". For instance, Jordan Peterson has been claiming lately that a diet consisting of literally just beef and tap water has cured him of some autoimmune disorder. There was a pretty amusing interview with him about it somewhere, where the newspaper felt the urge to add a disclaimer from a gastro specialist M.D which went "oh my god please don't do this, what the gently caress".
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May 25, 2019 17:21
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Geisladisk posted:For instance, Jordan Peterson has been claiming lately that a diet consisting of literally just beef and tap water has cured him of some autoimmune disorder. There was a pretty amusing interview with him about it somewhere, where the newspaper felt the urge to add a disclaimer from a gastro specialist M.D which went "oh my god please don't do this, what the gently caress". Framing it as beef diet cures a thing is dumb though, since "only lettuce diet" or "only buttered popcorn diet" would do the same, as would, more sanely, "reasonably balanced diet that doesn't include the specific thing that causes you problems."
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May 25, 2019 17:38
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He and his daughter claim it cured rhumatoid arthritis, and hís daughter claims it cured her depression as well.
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May 25, 2019 17:50
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Geisladisk posted:"People have been wrong about nutrition in the past and therefore we should completely disregard everything accepted about nutrition today" sure is a take, but it explains how you come to brilliant conclusions like "vegetables and fibres are bad for you". I was pointing out 'generally known' nutrition facts have tended to be disastrously wrong and hey maybe this one needs to be properly questioned. vegetables are not generally bad for you. only vegetables probably is. they're not especially good for you either though, and hardly a nutritional powerhouse. sure fibre has been shown to be good when it displaces the normal junk food most people eat. aside from that you can't digest it and you can't ferment it. what's it for again? Geisladisk posted:If you live in the western world (you do) you eat like three times more meat than your grandparents ever did. You'd be surprised at how much meat your grandparents actually ate, especially the creative ways they ate organs or less desirable cuts. It's good though that when questioned why someone thinks pasta and vegetables is a healthy meal and asking exactly why fibre is considered healthy it's 'pseudoscience' and I'm a 'conservative' 
cowboy beepboop fucked around with this message at 22:43 on May 25, 2019 |
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May 25, 2019 22:41
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my stepdads beer posted:sure fibre has been shown to be good when it displaces the normal junk food most people eat. aside from that you can't digest it and you can't ferment it. what's it for again? https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food-and-ingredients/dietary-fibre.html?limitstart=0
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May 26, 2019 03:09
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my stepdads beer posted:aside from that you can't digest it and you can't ferment it. what's it for again? 1. birds swallow stones 2. it is beneficial for them 3. birds can't digest or ferment stones Time works the same way.
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May 26, 2019 04:14
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Squalid posted:https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food-and-ingredients/dietary-fibre.html?limitstart=0 quote:Originally it was thought that dietary fibre was completely indigestible and did not provide any energy. It is now known that some fibre can be fermented in the large intestine by gut bacteria, producing short chain fatty acids and gases (methane, hydrogen and carbon dioxide). The fatty acids are absorbed into the blood stream and provide a small amount of energy It's a tiny amount. It's something like 2% (at best) of your energy intake. To compare, a gorilla is up near 60%. Cows and other ruminants are an incredible 80%+. We get our SCFAs directly from food instead of fermenting plant matter. roomforthetuna posted:Here's a little set of facts that will blow your mind: what benefits does fibre confer for humans? cowboy beepboop fucked around with this message at 08:00 on May 26, 2019 |
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May 26, 2019 07:58
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Can you explain to me in some detail just how more co2 in the atmosphere warms the planet?
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May 26, 2019 08:01
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My sources are mostly from the book "food pharmacy" but my understanding is that fiber is essential for healthy gut bacteria by facilitating the transport of nutrients to the large intestine. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_fiber I've been vegan for many years but I wouldn't say we know enough about human nutrition to conclusively say whether it's better than other diets. I do take supplements and take blood tests to make sure I have the right values, though I don't think you strictly need to do this to thrive on a vegan diet, as people have been for thousands of years. We have enough facts on the topics of animal welfare and climate change that I feel comfortable recommending a vegan diet for everybody. If you don't care about those things I think you can be perfectly healthy despite eating meat.
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May 26, 2019 14:42
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Mata posted:My sources are mostly from the book "food pharmacy" but my understanding is that fiber is essential for healthy gut bacteria by facilitating the transport of nutrients to the large intestine. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_fiber the intestine is perfectly capable of transporting and digesting food without fibre though. Mata posted:I've been vegan for many years but I wouldn't say we know enough about human nutrition to conclusively say whether it's better than other diets. I do take supplements and take blood tests to make sure I have the right values, though I don't think you strictly need to do this to thrive on a vegan diet, as people have been for thousands of years. no society has even been vegan, it's a totally new and untested way of eating.
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May 27, 2019 03:00
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my stepdads beer, have you considered that you should listen to the advice of doctors, instead of just inventing your own rules for nutrition? It's really not that hard to get your recommended fiber intake. . . https://www.ucsfhealth.org/education/increasing_fiber_intake/
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May 27, 2019 04:00
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my stepdads beer posted:no society has even been vegan, it's a totally new and untested way of eating. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study
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May 27, 2019 04:09
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my stepdads beer posted:the intestine is perfectly capable of transporting and digesting food without fibre though. You have been misinformed regarding the large intestine: I suggest you do some quick research on your own instead of repeatedly asking this thread and then not reading the links people helpfully provide you with. It does seem like the world will end before we ever see a vegan society, but it has been tested successfully by millions around the world (myself included) and by some historical figures who were particularly woke.
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May 27, 2019 08:21
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Hold up- people seriously watch slaughterhouse videos to work themselves up into going vegan? Did Morrissey and Ian MacKaye get you all to do it to prove your edge or something? I have been easing into a vegan diet from vegetarian for awhile and didn't know that was part of the deal. One day I looked up the rates of cancer and heart disease across the board for different diets and figured it might be good to do it. Hell, it turned Kevin Smith around after his heart attack.
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May 27, 2019 08:42
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Mata posted:You have been misinformed regarding the large intestine: I suggest you do some quick research on your own instead of repeatedly asking this thread and then not reading the links people helpfully provide you with. Do you really think that if you consume no fiber you will stop digestion? None of the links show this. Unlike veganism, there are societies have consumed a very high meat diet for thousands of years and thrived on it.
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May 27, 2019 11:16
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Squalid posted:my stepdads beer, have you considered that you should listen to the advice of doctors, instead of just inventing your own rules for nutrition? It's really not that hard to get your recommended fiber intake. . . I prefer to take a pragmatic view of food - did humans really rely on eating huge heads of brocolli and other man-made vegetables, fresh fruit, huge amounts of nuts, algae, tonnes of rice and beans year round? I don't think so. It's not our natural diet no matter how much we wish it was. You might as well raise your dog a vegetarian. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 27, 2019 11:21
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You have no scientific backing for what you're saying and rely on commonsensery pulled out of your rear end, all the wishful thinking here is coming from you.
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May 27, 2019 11:40
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my stepdads beer posted:Do you really think that if you consume no fiber you will stop digestion? None of the links show this. Unlike veganism, there are societies have consumed a very high meat diet for thousands of years and thrived on it. No, you need to read up on the different functions of the small vs large intestine, then I think you will have an easier time understanding the mechanisms of dietary fiber. I'll keep pretending like you're arguing in good faith and really trying to learn, and give you a good starting out point: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27385119 I don't know which historical society have thrived on a very meat high diet, but I know our current society (populace and environment) is being absolutely destroyed by it. Mata fucked around with this message at 11:59 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 11:54
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Mata posted:I don't know which historical society have thrived on a very meat high diet The Inuits are the classic example.
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May 27, 2019 12:12
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my stepdads beer posted:I prefer to take a pragmatic view of food - did humans really rely on eating huge heads of brocolli and other man-made vegetables, fresh fruit, huge amounts of nuts, algae, tonnes of rice and beans year round? I don't think so. It's not our natural diet no matter how much we wish it was. You might as well raise your dog a vegetarian. What the hell are you talking about? We also used to poo poo in the same river we drink from, but once we advanced past that in our societal development and people stopped dying all the loving time from cholera, we didn't keep doing it. I mean, maybe there's that one guy making GBS threads in the well telling everyone that their ancestors did it and it's natural. Our ancestors were nomadic, relying on looking everywhere for berries and game to hunt, but once agriculture came about, that wasn't necessary anymore, and they could settle down and start a real civilization. Except one guy insisting on roaming around looking for blueberries because their ancestors did it and it's natural. I stopped eating meat a decade ago because I live in a first world country that allows one to. Just because our dipshit ancestors lacked the foresight of all the things that would come doesn't mean they were right and we are wrong. We constantly move forward, even though with every breakthrough there are people trying to halt it because it isn't what the past was like. Anyway, I guess to chime in, I've been a vegan a decade and until three years ago I was running marathons. I believe my stomach or whatever down there lacks the enzymes to process meat or cow tit secretions. There is that; that's a genuine flaw to being a vegan that could cause some trouble if we suffer some kind of apocalypse and grocery stores aren't available anymore. I also live in a town with lots and lots of vegans, and they are usually the most active and healthy looking people around. Maybe it just goes with that culture, though; vegans riding bikes, volunteering everywhere, protesting everything. credburn fucked around with this message at 12:15 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 12:12
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Ras Het posted:The Inuits are the classic example. True, though I googled this real quick out of curiosity and it seems like thriving might be overselling it.
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May 27, 2019 12:51
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my stepdads beer posted:I prefer to take a pragmatic view of food - did humans really rely on eating huge heads of brocolli and other man-made vegetables, fresh fruit, huge amounts of nuts, algae, tonnes of rice and beans year round? I don't think so. It's not our natural diet no matter how much we wish it was. You might as well raise your dog a vegetarian. I prefer to take a pragmatic view of dentistry - did early humans really rely on good dental hygiene and access to dentists? I don't think so. It's not our natural state no matter how much we wish it was. *dies painfully over a period of months from an infected molar at 32*
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May 27, 2019 15:28
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Mata posted:True, though I googled this real quick out of curiosity and it seems like thriving might be overselling it.
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May 27, 2019 15:38
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Geisladisk posted:I prefer to take a pragmatic view of dentistry - did early humans really rely on good dental hygiene and access to dentists? I don't think so. It's not our natural state no matter how much we wish it was. If you ate as little sugar as early humans did, you could probably get away without dentistry for longer than that. I'm not going vegan, or even vegetarian, but for the past month I've been working on completely eliminating all non-fruit and vegetable sugar from my diet and even that is tough, as I get insane cravings for brownies, ice cream, etc. They're not complete vegans, as they'll at certain times of the calendar eat fish and some other animal products, like butter, but the monks of Mt. Athos are a good example of people living healthily on a diet which is vegan-adjacent over a very long term. http://globalphilosophy.blogspot.com/2008/03/half-vegan-monks-who-are-worlds.html As for me, I could see myself potentially going pescatarian or vegetarian, but vegan... no.
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May 27, 2019 15:51
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My point was that appealing to the "natural" state of humanity, i.e pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers, as an argument for ideal modern dietary habits is inane. Also, if modern surviving HG societies are any indication, HG societies usually get a quarter of so of their caloric intake from meat. Meat is supplementary to their diet, not the primary food source. Still vital, because for HGs meat is their only significant source of protein. For modern computer-touchers, getting a nutritionally complete vegan diet is entirely feasible. The few micronutrients that are hard to come by are easily fixed with suppliments. I'm not vegan either - I'm gradually cutting down on meat, but I can't see myself going full vegan. Geisladisk fucked around with this message at 16:10 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 16:07
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I'm also not vegan even though from a moral point of view I really think I ought to be, I just hate the mental gymnastics people get into to disparage people who go vegan.
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May 27, 2019 16:19
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Geisladisk posted:My point was that appealing to the "natural" state of humanity, i.e pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers, as an argument for ideal modern dietary habits is inane. My biggest problem with this style of argument is that the evidence suggests there is no "natural" state of humanity. When we look at extant hunter-gatherers it immediately becomes obvious that in terms of diet these communities varied enormously, and almost all generalization is impossible. When my stepdads beer asks if humans really ate this or that the answer is YES. Some humans ate every kind of diet imaginable. Tons of hunter-gatherers had diets based around grains. A huge proportion of the diet of San peoples was mongongo nuts. The diets of hunter-gatherers like the Hadza of East Africa is characterized by huge daily intakes of dietary fiber that just dwarf modern recommended values, primarily in the form of fibrous wild tubers. High fiber tubers are also the traditional staple food for many Mbuti groups, and of several tribes on the American great plains as well. I am not aware of true veganism existing before the modern era this being one of very few generalizations that do hold, but as I understand it the reasons for this are well known. We know what nutrients are difficult to get from plants and anyone who puts even the minimal amount of thought into their diet can easily manage those limitations with supplements or w/e. The literature clearly paints a very positive picture of the effects of a vegetarian diet, although as far as I know vegan diets are less well studied.
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May 27, 2019 16:40
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Geisladisk posted:I prefer to take a pragmatic view of dentistry - did early humans really rely on good dental hygiene and access to dentists? I don't think so. It's not our natural state no matter how much we wish it was. This is an interesting argument - you're aware our teeth went to poo poo when we started eating grains right? Why are we the only animal that seems to need dentists and regular cleaning to maintain a healthy mouth?
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May 28, 2019 02:54
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Mata posted:True, though I googled this real quick out of curiosity and it seems like thriving might be overselling it. This is a bit of a dishonest article. The first piece of evidence is that heart disease was discovered in a single mummy from 500 years ago (she was apparently buried alive too, brutal). He doesn't mention that when they examined the Egyptian mummies (who have famously consumed a grain based diet along the river nile): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/14901619_The_paleopathology_of_the_cardiovascular_system quote:Severe aortic atherosclerosis was seen in the Pharaoh Merneptah,' 8'9 and Ruffer4 found involvement of all arteries, large and small, to be very common among the hundreds of mummies he examined. The next piece is from the 1970s when some researchers examined Eskimos eating a normal western diet and not their ancesteral one.
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May 28, 2019 03:11
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Squalid posted:My biggest problem with this style of argument is that the evidence suggests there is no "natural" state of humanity. When we look at extant hunter-gatherers it immediately becomes obvious that in terms of diet these communities varied enormously, and almost all generalization is impossible. When my stepdads beer asks if humans really ate this or that the answer is YES. Some humans ate every kind of diet imaginable. Tons of hunter-gatherers had diets based around grains. A huge proportion of the diet of San peoples was mongongo nuts. My point was modern veganism is totally unnatural - not that various group didn't or don't eat diets that might be high in fibre. Some did, some didn't. It doesn't appear to be essential. By the way, meat is an important part of the Hadza diet. I'm not sure about the other groups.
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May 28, 2019 03:25
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Can you define what you mean when you say "unnatural"? I think I am having trouble understanding your argument because we may have differing interpretations of this concept. I'm confused, because, say, vaccines are "unnatural," but I don't think you are opposed to that. I mean, I know some people are, but they are a comparatively small group.
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May 28, 2019 04:23
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my stepdads beer posted:This is an interesting argument - you're aware our teeth went to poo poo when we started eating grains right? Why are we the only animal that seems to need dentists and regular cleaning to maintain a healthy mouth? Damage to the teeth is a major source of mortality in many species. For example, a large proportion of tiger attacks are performed by older individuals whose canines have been broken or lost. Without their canines they are no longer able to inflict killing blows on their usual prey and instead go after weaker options like humans. my stepdads beer posted:My point was modern veganism is totally unnatural - not that various group didn't or don't eat diets that might be high in fibre. Some did, some didn't. It doesn't appear to be essential. The thing is we have a very poor idea of what a "natural" human diet even looks like. Most existing hunter-gatherers live lifestyles radically different from those of humans before the migration out of Africa. The Mbuti of the central African rainforest at first seem like they might live lifestyles approximating those of our common ancestors. They are hunter-gatherers who traditionally ate a high fiber diet of wild fruit and tubers, with as much game as they could catch in their nets. Honey was the favorite food and consumed in large quantities in season. Fat was scarce and the most valued part of any meal. However archaeology shows us something curious, there's no evidence of any humans living in the dense, moist forests of central Africa until 50 kya. It seems likely humans only colonized the home of the Mbuti after they had already migrated into Australia and Ice Age central Asia, despite it being geographically close to the center of human evolution. The picture is not fully understood, but the best explanation for this is that tropical moist forests were too hostile for the proto-humans, whose habitat was confined to the open dry savannas of East and North Africa. What enabled the colonization of wet forests was technological and cultural advancement. If their environment and technology is radically different from those of the human ancestor, it doesn't make sense to assume they would have comparable diets. The same issue is also true for arctic hunter gatherers like the Inuit, only more extreme. Inuit like cultures only begin to appear in the high arctic around 4,000 years ago, and their lifestyles are nothing like that of our ancestors, who obviously lived in the tropics. They were able to colonize regions like Greenland because of their highly sophisticated technology that opened up rich new sources of food. Their subsistence culture is younger than agriculture, and just as derived from the ancestral form. The issue of what is essential or not is also a strange diversion. Meat is obviously not an essential part of a human diet. There are many cultures with strict vegetarianism that have existed for hundreds of years without issue -- primarily several groups of high caste Hindus. Even you will not dispute this, I am sure. Modern nutritional consensus is also clear that no animal products are "essential" for life, and that with some care vegans can live perfectly well. This discussion is not really about what nutrients are "essential." What you are trying to talk about instead is what is OPTIMAL for a healthy diet. It's pretty clear that the consensus of nutritionists is that in the optimal diet, you should be consuming dietary fiber.
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May 28, 2019 05:37
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my stepdads beer posted:This is an interesting argument - you're aware our teeth went to poo poo when we started eating grains right? Why are we the only animal that seems to need dentists and regular cleaning to maintain a healthy mouth? And even aside from that we're still not, dogs and cats get hosed up teeth all the time and they mostly don't even live for 20 years. Vultures don't get tooth decay though, which is obviously due to their meat-heavy diet.
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May 28, 2019 06:42
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roomforthetuna posted:Because we're the only animal with teeth that doesn't just grow new teeth and also lives longer than about 20 years. Elephants live for a very long time, but they die when the molars finally wear out. It's a major cause of death for ageing elephants. Many mammals live for a long time, and we all only get two sets of teeth. The most long-lived mammals never grow teeth at all, Baleen whales, who can live to be over 200 years old.
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May 28, 2019 08:54
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I mean carbs do cause your teeth to rot if you don't clean them, that's not really worth denying. The upshot is that carbs are extremely energy efficient and there's a reason they form the basis of diets of all known agricultural societies. It's only been a few generations since the introduction of a new, even more energy efficient carb into Europe caused a sharp increase in the continent's population, that of the potato
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May 28, 2019 09:04
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Squalid posted:The issue of what is essential or not is also a strange diversion. Meat is obviously not an essential part of a human diet. There are many cultures with strict vegetarianism that have existed for hundreds of years without issue -- primarily several groups of high caste Hindus. Even you will not dispute this, I am sure. Modern nutritional consensus is also clear that no animal products are "essential" for life, and that with some care vegans can live perfectly well. You point to cultures with strict vegetarianism, and then make the claim that because of this, vegans can live "perfectly" well. Vegetarianism and veganism are two very different things. I have a lot of respect for vegetarianism. The idea of a world dominated by pure veganism concerns me, as many species would cease to be valuable to humans as anything other than hobby animals. I have raised chickens for eggs, and done so in what I consider an ethical and forthright manner. A universal veganism seems to me throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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May 28, 2019 13:32
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