|
ChubbyChecker posted:That link doesn't seem to work. Odd, fine for me, try this one: https://www.publicmedievalist.com/no-more-fairy-tales/
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 21:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 13:52 |
|
|
Oh, now it works. No idea what happened. Dem computers, huh.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 21:45
|
|
|
khwarezm posted:Is this thread more open to general history? I was wondering what more informed people think of this article series on Gender and Sexuality in the Middle Ages. I think it's also important to keep in mind that both series are explicitly for a general audience and intended to break down mistaken pop-culture notions. That pretty much requires engaging with modern conceptions of race and gender because that is part of what is incorrectly being projected backwards. It also has to grapple with some insidious goal post shifting in these arguments. As an example, routinely you will have arguments that there were no LGBT+ people in Medieval Europe, in the sense that only heterosexual relationships were recognized, tolerated, and understood. When counter examples to that are given, the return argument becomes that LGBT+ identities are modern concepts - which is true in a technical sense but is not what the original argument was proposing. I am in no way saying this is what you're doing. But it's important to be mindful of the kinds of bad faith arguments being pushed back against here. The way in which saying "there were LGBT+ people in Medieval Europe" is incorrect is a lot less misleading to a modern general audience than saying "there were no LGBT+ people in Medieval Europe" is, and ultimately is going to give you a stronger position to clarify what is going on in Medieval Europe.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 21:49
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:Guadalcanal is still the last time battleships on both sides scored hits, right? USN hosed up some poo poo at leyte
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 21:53
|
|
|
Does anyone have a handy link to Heygal's posts about gender in the 30 years war period? I think it was a perfect example of this sort of thing. "Gender is a spectrum" is a modern concept, but they had it back then! However that doesn't mean the 30 years war was some sort of lost age of progressive thought, and their version is uhhh, less cool than it initially appears.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 21:56
|
|
|
Splode posted:Does anyone have a handy link to Heygal's posts about gender in the 30 years war period? I think it was a perfect example of this sort of thing. "Gender is a spectrum" is a modern concept, but they had it back then! However that doesn't mean the 30 years war was some sort of lost age of progressive thought, and their version is uhhh, less cool than it initially appears. As a great example that I remember from one of their posts: People back then were pretty into the female orgasm. They thought it was super important and basically required for conception to happen. Which makes sense. It's pretty obvious that if the man doesn't cum you're not getting a baby, and clearly there's something going on there for the woman too, so why wouldn't that be necessary. On the surface this looks pretty loving sexually progressive. We're only just now starting to emerge out from the funk of Victorian sensibilities and suspicion of anything like female pleasure after all. Problem: this basically means that if someone gets pregnant from a rape it must not have been a rape because if she's pregnant that means she got off. And now she's a mother out of wedlock so I guess she better marry that guy who she clearly had fulfilling sex with or just accept society's judgment that she's a harlot. So like someone else said, not so much that they weren't just as lovely and awful as we are, just lovely and awful in different ways.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 22:05
|
|
|
Comrade Gorbash posted:I think it's also important to keep in mind that both series are explicitly for a general audience and intended to break down mistaken pop-culture notions. That pretty much requires engaging with modern conceptions of race and gender because that is part of what is incorrectly being projected backwards. I think that just ends up distorting history in similar kind of way though, and I find it very unsatisfactory to treat it with a light touch because it's for "good" reasons to oppose the alt-right, which is what kind of annoys me about the articles since it feels like they are being loose and not completely honest with some of the history to back points that mostly exist for the here and now. Honestly I've never really seen somebody argue that non-straight people didn't exist in the past, and when called out with examples as varied as Trajan to the Gala priests of Inanna resorting to going on about how it doesn't count for reasons that would undermine the rigid conception of heterosexuality they would have to be starting from, it seems like that would be a totally incoherent argument any way you slice it. But they haven't talked much about LGBT stuff in this series so far so I'm probably getting ahead of myself, its more that it feels sort of sloppy to me and not really talking about these conceptions in the Medieval period on their own terms and in their own context but constantly referring back to the modern day. It also feels kind of sloppy and opening things up to lots of 'Yeah, but', the article on the idea of the medieval lady particularly feels like it's fighting a confused battle, I've already touched on it's use of race but also I don't think there's much appetite anymore for the idea that women of the past were squealing maidens waiting for their knights in the face of things like Game of Thrones, and even people with passing interest in Medieval history have probably heard of figures like Eleanor of Aquitaine or Margaret of Anjou, but the article ends up gliding over a lot of the nearly unimaginable sexism that was baked into Medieval society at a core level that can be seen with things as basic as how inheritance worked in the vast majority of Europe.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 22:31
|
|
|
Isn't there also a bit of an interchange when comparing social concepts like that where there's regional differences to consider as well as temporal? Like while the Germany and Britain are close to eachother, they're still separate enough for it to be fully possible for the specifics of one's cultural concepts to have come into conflict with the other's. Kinda like how comparisons between the culture of ancient and medieval western Europe need to take into account how there was a massive influx from out east of people with a separate, unrelated culture dominating everything.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 23:01
|
|
|
Chillbro Baggins posted:I've had "Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner" stuck in my head for days. What was going on with the actual conflict, why were they hiring mercenaries, etc.? Also apparently in the '60s there were still private mercs? You didn't have to join a PMC/one of Hey Gal's dudes' regiments to be a soldier, you could just sign up as an individual? Major Major Major posted:Here's a 3-part youtube compilation of clips from the Italian film Africa Adido for anyone interested: funny, I also recently saw this clip from Africa Addio with "Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner" playing over it, guess its going around. This led me to watch the film, and boy is it something. Here's the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apr6g_NK06Q You can easily find the entire thing on youtube. On the one hand, much of the footage really is amazing. The most important and shocking images are probably director Gualtiero Jacopetti's images of the genocide of the Zanzibar Arabs during 1964 revolution. Captured by helicopter, Jacopetti records as revolutionaries round up Arabs in the street, take them to open fields, killed the Arabs, and then carted their bodies away in flatbed trucks. No other photo records of these mass killings exist. The film includes rare images of many other important events in African history. On the other hand the film is at times obliviously racist, with an entire scene based around the idea African men were especially lustful towards white women. There were many other offensive ideas as well. Equally problematic, I'm almost certain several scenes were actually staged. In particular during one scene meant to illustrate the spread of modern trends and fashions among South Africa's blacks, extras on a film set dressed in traditional zulu attire bust out a jazz quartet in between takes for an impromptu dance session. It's not stated but my instinct is the film whose set they were on was actually Africa Addio's. Just a hunch, but when they wheeled the upright piano out from a grass-hut the scenario started looking a bit contrived. It waasn't even the worst example either. Staging scenes was not that uncommon for documentaries of the time but it still calls into question the integrity of the entire work, especially as the filmmakers denied they did any such thing. Still there's not much material willing to cover the same issues and events, so I would recommend it to anyone interested in African history. It's entertaining and stylish, and if nothing else a unique artifact of 1960s culture.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 23:27
|
|
|
Splode posted:Does anyone have a handy link to Heygal's posts about gender in the 30 years war period? I think it was a perfect example of this sort of thing. "Gender is a spectrum" is a modern concept, but they had it back then! However that doesn't mean the 30 years war was some sort of lost age of progressive thought, and their version is uhhh, less cool than it initially appears. Some people thought the Romantic model, in which women and men are different kinds of being, was less sexist--since now you can have a perfect woman as well as a perfect man, women can be 100% perfectly actualized. But what they're actualized as is completely different from men. Two totally seperate tracks of mental development. This is where the "seperate spheres" thing comes from. The early feminists do not push back against this as far as I know (the 19c is not my field), they think within it while arguing for more roles for women. "We deserve to participate in government as well as men because you need the voices of this different perspective on life." So neither system of thought ends up being "better than" or "worse than" the other, they're just different and then people figure out ways to live in both of them edit: this is what historians from the late 19th/early 20th century were talking about when they called the late 18th/early 19th century a period of the "discovery of woman." edit 2: if you can't find my old posts just look up an author named Walter Laqueur, he's where I got this from. Then read the responses to him because not all historians agree with him. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Oct 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 10:52
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:you'd think that "women and men are the same kind of being" would be less sexist than the victorians but you'd be wrong: the kind of being everyone is, is men. Women are the less perfect version of that. This was, incidentally, immensely helpful for me when I was trying to figure out whether or not I was trans my first few years of my PhD program, but I can see how it would make a woman feel lovely. What do you mean by that exactly?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 11:22
|
|
|
khwarezm posted:What do you mean by that exactly? edit: i feel like this is a mental system that can only occur to a society where there are a whole lot of eunuchs around HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Oct 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 11:34
|
|
|
Is this based on the 'women are made from Adam's rib' idea?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 12:17
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Is this based on the 'women are made from Adam's rib' idea?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 12:22
|
|
|
Cessna posted:I'm not looking for an Osprey level uniforms guide, but more more of an overview. I'd be especially interested on the Italian army in the USSR. "Handbook on the Italian Military Forces, 1943" does a pretty good overview of what the US could inform themselves about the Italians before decades of research could be pored over and collated. Most modern reproductions of this TM have a cover that make you think you're about to read a book on uniforms, but it has a decent amount of information for its size, and price. "DEFENCE AND FALL OF GREECE 1940-41" is not a book about the Italian Army, per se, as its about the invasion of Greece by the Italians, told from the viewpoint of the Greeks. That being said, it does offer a look at how they were viewed by one of their main enemies, at a time and place that isn't spoken of quite as much as, say, North Africa. "Sacrifice on the Steppe: The Italian Alpine Corps in the Stalingrad Campaign, 1942-1943" I've heard good things about this book, and have it sitting on a pile of books, but have yet to clear through my backlog.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 12:38
|
|
|
Geisladisk posted:People in the past had a lot of immensely hosed up attitudes towards gender - I think trying to paint medieval Europe as more progressive by modern standards is a mistake - But they had hosed up attitudes to gender in a very different way than we do today. Our views on gender roles, especially the stay-at-home housewife, are codified and solidified in the 19th and early 20th century. Where 'our' is still defined by class and race, too. Working class women didn't get to stay home and do the housework, even back in the 50s.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 13:09
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Is this based on the 'women are made from Adam's rib' idea? My gut reaction on reading it is that it's looks like 'you have no idea what hormones are or even have a concept of biology that can include them but you can kinda observe (via eunuchs) that there's some sort of link between people's bodies and how they tend to act'.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 13:21
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:All human beings start out at a child's level of development. People with more "vital heat" develop into men--they grow more hair, their penises get bigger, they get taller, and their bodies feel warmer and drier to the touch. (How "moist" your body is thought to be is a huge deal with these people. It reminds me of traditional chinese medicine, kind of. There's all sorts of "fluids" inside the human body, doing things.) People with less "vital heat" stay at a kind of arrested level of development, with soft, cool, damp bodies. Those people are women, or castrated men. Most people end up as one or the other--but theoretically it should also be possible to "stall" at any level of this process. Which is where my confused wonderings about what kind of person I was come in. It's just that it sounded a little bit like you were saying that your decision to transition was influenced by that archaic idea that women are just imperfect men.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 13:26
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:"Handbook on the Italian Military Forces, 1943" does a pretty good overview of what the US could inform themselves about the Italians before decades of research could be pored over and collated. Most modern reproductions of this TM have a cover that make you think you're about to read a book on uniforms, but it has a decent amount of information for its size, and price. Very helpful, thank you! To the library!! (Or inter-library loan, as the case may be...)
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 14:29
|
|
|
khwarezm posted:It's just that it sounded a little bit like you were saying that your decision to transition was influenced by that archaic idea that women are just imperfect men. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Oct 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 16:22
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:My gut reaction on reading it is that it's looks like 'you have no idea what hormones are or even have a concept of biology that can include them but you can kinda observe (via eunuchs) that there's some sort of link between people's bodies and how they tend to act'. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Oct 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 16:29
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:A lot of science before really good instuments has a sort of...puzzling-it-out aspect. Assume these people are just as smart as we are, just they have no idea what chemistry is and they've just invented the microscope. What are they going to think? What would we think if we were them? There's also a whole load of having to rely on what other people claim to be true/have observed without any peer review or having the resources to check yourself.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 16:47
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:There's also a whole load of having to rely on what other people claim to be true/have observed without any peer review or having the resources to check yourself.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 16:49
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:aristotle and herodotus are the best for this Humans are a type of large ant https://twitter.com/danhett/status/1055715221996748800 Someone in another thread says this is a 3rd SS Panzer Division uniform zoux fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Oct 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 16:54
|
|
|
I love the persistence of the idea of spontaneous generation from antiquity through early modern times - it's the perfect example of observation without regards to experimentation. Need bees? Kill an ox! Want scorpions? Place basil between bricks!(?). Scallops appear in sand! Eels from that gross goop eels always seem to be in! Etc.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 17:01
|
|
|
zoux posted:https://twitter.com/danhett/status/1055715221996748800 Surely that is a fake/edit? Surely?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 17:15
|
|
|
I like Eva Braun with fairy wings, it's an interesting touch
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 17:17
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:Surely that is a fake/edit? Surely? https://www.facebook.com/bryant.goldbach 
Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Oct 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 17:28
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:Surely that is a fake/edit? Surely? It happens 
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 17:31
|
|
|
Our world is apparently an old old rear end episode of South Park these days.
SeanBeansShako fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Oct 26, 2018 |
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 17:33
|
|
|
i mean, if you're making a monster costume for halloween, it's gonna be really loving hard to top that 
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 17:35
|
|
|
zoux posted:It happens Need a last-minute costume, quick, what do we have lying around the house? Here, use my swastika armband.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 17:35
|
|
vyelkin posted:Need a last-minute costume, quick, what do we have lying around the house? Here, use my swastika armband. "Dammit I threw my Chaplin black bowler hat last week! gotta think fast!"
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 17:37
|
|
|
zoux posted:Humans are a type of large ant dad... are we the baddies?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 17:39
|
|
|
Neophyte posted:Want scorpions? No, not really. Please keep your basil away from me. I want to say that this dad is just genuinely a clueless moron, because he seems to be genuinely surprised and shocked at the reception, but on the other hand, dude has a full Waffen-SS officer uniform complete with swastika armband, so...
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 18:00
|
|
|
Your standard clueless moron isn't going to make a spiel about the Tolerant Left.
Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Oct 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 18:05
|
|
|
SeanBeansShako posted:"Dammit I threw my Chaplin black bowler hat last week! gotta think fast!" lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 18:06
|
|
|
it took me months to get the materials and patterns together to make a 17th century outfit, and a longass time to make it as well, this is not just something you happen across
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 18:14
|
|
|
zoux posted:Humans are a type of large ant Nope. SS Panzer troops would wear black uniforms with skulls and runes and other associated poo poo. But that's not what he's wearing. - 3rd SS would have replaced the "SS" runes on his collar with a skull. - They would have worn a feldgrau (grayish-green) peaked cap. - The cut and insignia of the uniform jacket is completely different. They would have worn what is called a "wrap" by uniformologists. It folds over and buttons like a double-breasted jacket. It would never have had the red armband. It would have the Nazi eagle insignia on the left sleeve. (The guy in the photo's insignia are an a-historic mess, and they NEVER would have worn a cross on their uniform.) These assholes are SS Panzer troops. No, not 3rd SS, but from another Division whose uniforms would be identical:  No, what the guy in the photo is wearing is the uniform of the Allgemeine SS. ("General SS," sorta.) These was the NON-Waffen SS. That is, party and political bureaucrats, not soldiers. The black Allgemeine SS uniform is also pre-1940; during the war they were ordered to stop wearing them. Make no mistake; that is not the uniform of a common soldier - that's the uniform of someone making sure the camps are running. Edit: Now I feel bad for his kids. Cessna fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Oct 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 19:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 13:52 |
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:it took me months to get the materials and patterns together to make a 17th century outfit, and a longass time to make it as well, this is not just something you happen across This is also not the sort of thing a reputable reenacting vendor sells.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 19:56
|
|