Milhist Thread Part The IVth: sir, my ass is flowing like Sun Tzu's army

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Milhist Thread Part The IVth: sir, my ass is flowing like Sun Tzu's army

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Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Ithle01 posted:

If anyone wants more detail on this Swords Around a Throne goes into uniforms in what I can only describe as exhausting detail. I swear, like half that book is about clothing.

Sounds great!

# ¿ Oct 30, 2018 19:44

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 13:20

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

HEY GUNS posted:

those are riding breeches my dude

have you seen mash

What's the difference between riding breeches and jodhpurs?

# ¿ Oct 30, 2018 20:10

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Cessna posted:

When you're that high in the Nazi hierarchy rules regarding uniforms don't apply to you.

Case in point:

Speaking of, did Hitler have some specific uniform?

# ¿ Oct 30, 2018 21:39

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

SeanBeansShako posted:

Since you've covered helmets and uniforms, what weird issues did Nazi boots and other leather accoutrements have? should also put everything together in one final mega post when your are also done.

What about their desert uniforms and winter gear? And I'd very much like to read uniform posts about other countries too.

# ¿ Oct 30, 2018 21:42

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

SeanBeansShako posted:

Wait, didn't Himmler always wear a black uniform despite that order?

Also, if anyone is curious the Freikorp choose black because most of them were poor weird radical nationalists dreaming some weird German nationalist dream and booze is clearly the priority when it comes to dye for your home made uniforms for camping in woods and plundering.

Wasn't black an expensive dye? Or was this only during the Early Modern era?

# ¿ Oct 30, 2018 21:44

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

MOA GSW?

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 15:52

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Cyrano4747 posted:

Gun Shot Wound

Minute Of Angle - a measurement for accuracy. The rule of thumb is that 1 MOA puts the shots in a 1 inch circle at 100 yards. This is considered very good mechanical accuracy. It is affected by both the rifle and the ammo.

Your typical WW2 era rifle was 3-6 MOA depending on the acceptance standard of the army getting them, to give an idea.

Phanatic posted:

MOA = Minute of Arc/Minute of Angle. Commonly used as a measure of accuracy for rifles. A rifle capable of shooting 1 MOA means that all the shots will fall within a ~1 inch-diameter circle at 100 yards, a ~2-inch diameter circle at 200 yards, etc.

GSW = Gunshot Wound.

thanks

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 16:05

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

What were the sniping distances of the pre-18th century rifles?

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 16:17

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

bewbies posted:

That all makes sense too...I guess what I find baffling is why no one did the math on the advantages of intermediate rounds once all of the other gear (machine guns and IDF and so on) came around to much more effectively engage stuff at longer ranges. I can kind of see wanting to finish out WWI with the old stuff just because of logistics and production concerns, but why on earth did they not make the switch in the intervening years? Pure organizational inertia?

What's IDF apart from Israeli Defence Forces?

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 16:51

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Cyrano4747 posted:

It�s a thing they trained. Same basic principle as volley fire just aiming at a patch of sky rather than a patch of ground.

Now is it super effective? Not really, but you get lucky sometimes and shoot down an airplane and at the very least it keeps them from just loitering and loving you up at their leisure.

Edit: the Japanese went so far as to put AA sights on their rifles to help calculate lead.

Were any planes ever actually shot down with just rifles?

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 17:04

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Finnish conscripts were still trained to do that poo poo 20 years ago.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 17:07

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

FrangibleCover posted:

Quite possibly with some of the same Mosins in the less well equipped formations. I also liked the Lahti AT rifle being kept around for anti-helicopter duties. The FDF were pretty keen on shooting rifles at aircraft overall.

Nope, the training was done with assault rifles. And the Lahti AT rifles were discarded in the 80s.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 17:33

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Nenonen posted:

But mind you, against helicopters which is actually a feasible target, or at least it can't just hover there idly. Shooting at a jet would be foolishness, you would be more likely to hit a nearby friendly that way when the bullets tumble down.

at planes too, and yes it wasn't very smart imo

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 20:45

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

HEY GUNS posted:

or tibet, which is why those guys have tripod-mounted black powder matchlocks for the longest loving time

i hate smokeless powder /hipster

pics

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 22:01

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

HEY GUNS posted:

1938, here are some musket dudes with their bipods flipped up

there's at least one other guy in this series of photos incorrectly identified as an "archer"
http://www.manchuarchery.org/photographs-tibetan-archers

here's one for sale. have a million quid?
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/2016/supreme-number-one-l16214.html

Thanks! Hah, unfortunately not.

So drat cool!

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 22:14

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

literal shipboard marines

those are magoons

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 23:21

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

HEY GUNS posted:

haha good lord, look at the fine print on those photos. The SS took 'em. Motherfuck.

gently caress

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Sch%C3%A4fer

so they did

# ¿ Nov 1, 2018 00:06

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

HEY GUNS posted:

Nope, he accused her of witchcraft. The fear and the impotence were supernatural in nature.

How did the case end?

# ¿ Nov 2, 2018 00:04

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

# ¿ Nov 2, 2018 11:32

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Nenonen posted:

So that answers the question of what that part of this meme is about, and at the same time it doesn't.

(I'm 2)

taking someone's dick is p. chaotic neutral

# ¿ Nov 2, 2018 17:20

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Chillbro Baggins posted:

Dig in for the the first shot and then scoot/"dig in" in the general sense of "come and take it, but we will make a tactical retreat", yes. I was phoneposting, so to properly summarize the post mentioned. It had a secondary driver facing backward for that, even.

That was the point I was trying to make. Also, the most-sloped frontal armor ever! So in the rare chance that you can see more than the gun tube, your shot's going to skip off like a rock off a pond.

In other news, there's an episode of this stupid TV show on, in which they're looking at a WWI German U-boat supposedly sunk by the Kraken or some poo poo. Yeah, turns out the cable powering the captain's space heater blocked the hatches from closing when they dove to escape a British escort ship, and the captain (maybe, or it may be an internet-era urban legend) made up the sea monster story in an attempt to save his career. Edit: Another story of hilariously incompetent Germans. See also the WWII U-boat that was almost lost when somebody hosed up flushing the toilet while submerged. I made an effortpost on that incident in either a previous incarnation of this thread or the PYF Historical Fun Facts one.

I remember reading about some Italian submarines that gassed their crews when they dived.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2018 23:18

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

What were the specifications of the first tank? What job was it made for? Cross-country capability, trench crossing capability, ability to pass through at least some barbed wire, enough armor to protect the crew against small arms fire, and some weapon or weapons to destroy enemy infantry with?

# ¿ Nov 5, 2018 09:20

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

gradenko_2000 posted:

AFAIK it had to be able to cross trenches, it had to be able to pass through barbed wire, and it had to be able to protect its crew from small-arms fire

The "cross-country capable" tank came later in the form of the Mark A Whippet, which moved at a blazing 13 kph after designers realized that the Mark I/V tanks, with their 3 kph speed, would never be able to exploit breakthroughs. The Whippets weighed about half as much as the Mark I/V's, and (IIRC) their track designs may have been less capable of getting through trenches, but they were, as intended, that much faster.

I'm not quite sure what the specific intention for the cannons on the tanks were, but these first tanks had both machine guns and cannon, with some variants having only machine guns to maximize anti-infantry capability. These variants were called "females", as they were supposed to operate as "consorts" to the cannon-equipped "males" to protect them from massed infantry.

The first tanks must have had cross-country capability, otherwise they could have only used roads.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2018 09:51

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

HEY GUNS posted:

in the 17th century: flags are much bigger than you probably think they are, every company has (ideally) three drums so every regiment has (ideally) about thirty, and there's yelling.

i took part in regimental drill at a big reenactment: i was in the first rank in my company as is customary which put me smack in the middle of the big block and i couldn't see a drat thing, but every time the officers way up at the front yelled something, eventually it was picked up by the officers directing the companies.

haha, that noise must be really something

how wide would a company and a regiment be?

# ¿ Nov 5, 2018 16:45

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

LatwPIAT posted:

Depends on the tank, even. (Tanks are designed to army spec, granted.) This is very noticeable if you compare the West German Leopard 1 with the US-built M48A2C in West German service. In the M48A2C, the commander selects a target from his cupola, directs the turret onto the target, climbs into the turret to use the rangefinder, estimates range, and tells the gunner to engage, then climbs back up into their cupola to observe, direct, and find new targets. The gunner, after being told to engage, lays the gun on target and fires.

In the Leopard 1, the commander selects a target from their cupola, directs the turret onto target, and tells the gunner to engage. Then they continue to direct the battle from their cupola/hatch and find new targets. The gunner, meanwhile, operates the rangefinder, estimates range, and engages.

Same army, same number of crewmembers, in operation at the same time, essentially the same technology, but the tanks are designed for very different workflows.

Which was better?

# ¿ Nov 8, 2018 01:22

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

yeah i thought it quite strange how the commander has to climb up and down like a drat santa

# ¿ Nov 8, 2018 02:06

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

# ¿ Nov 8, 2018 03:15

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

# ¿ Nov 8, 2018 15:52

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Milo and POTUS posted:

I imagine that a projectile even that small compared to the diameter of the barrel still probably has enough energy to whiz through a few ranks. I don't know the scale. I always imagined they'd be musketball sized but those look about like an inch or so.

If i've understood correctly, the canisters with musket balls were called canister shots, and the ones with bigger balls were called grape shots. The grape shots were used mostly by naval guns. I'm not sure if the musket balls went through many ranks.

# ¿ Nov 8, 2018 17:51

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Grand Prize Winner posted:

To my understanding, grape shot had fewer but larger projectiles (like 12 at half the barrel's diameter) compared to canister. Small enough to not cause too much damage to a ship's structure, but still large enough to cause spalling. Canister/case shot packed like 50 to 100 musket size balls instead since they couldn't rely on the extra fragmentation you'd get from hitting a wooden ship.

Of course both terms have been used almost interchangeably for like 100 years so ehhh

Yeah, I read about some battery in the Finnish War (part of the Napoleonic Wars) that had received ammunition supply from Sveaborg (a costal fort) and they therefore had grape shot instead of normal canister shots. I can post more about it next week, if I find the source.

# ¿ Nov 9, 2018 01:29

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

lmao at santa track

# ¿ Nov 9, 2018 01:45

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

chitoryu12 posted:

Also on brass, it's probably going to stick around for cartridge casings for a very long time because it's the ideal metal for it. It expands upon firing to obturate the bore and prevent hot propellant gases from leaking backwards into your face, but then shrinks down after the pressure drops so it can easily be extracted from the chamber. The brass cartridge casing was likely the biggest invention that revolutionized firearms and allowed for breechloaders to completely overtake muzzleloaders.

And it really does have to be brass, or steel if you really need to save a few cents per round. The US tried using copper cartridges after the Civil War to save money, only to discover that the soft copper would get stuck in the chamber or even break when trying to extract the casings. A lot of men died in Little Bighorn because of their rifles jamming and needing to be cleaned out with a knife or cleaning rod before they could be reloaded.

Did anyone else try copper cartridges?

# ¿ Dec 18, 2018 16:09

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

aphid_licker posted:

Excuse me??

a neckbeard is still a neckbeard, even if it's made out of gems

# ¿ Dec 18, 2018 16:37

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

HEY GUNS posted:

the line that the armies entered the war shouting "santa maria!" and exited it shouting "viva espana!" is a direct quote from wedgewood. her argument was that the 30yw was not only the last great religious war but also inaugurated modern nation-states and national armies. this was a tenacious belief, but imo the complex of relationships that we call a "state" took a very long time to develop and involved a lot more private military enterprise than we used to think.

the argument that the 1640s was characterized by "shattered remnants of armies" that moved around "purposelessly" in a "lawless" situation is entirely wrong. there were few resources in the 40s, yes. this is indeed why armies got smaller--much smaller. but these little armies weren't "shattered," they were highly adapted to their environment (and might have been able to continue operating indefinitely if the war hadn't ended and they weren't disbanded in '51). their movements weren't purposeless; instead they exchanged information back and forth with their heads of state frequently, and reacted to directions from home base. And they weren't lawless--the military legal system was highly developed and continued to function, except in the army of Brandenburg.

What happened with the Brandenburger army?

# ¿ Dec 18, 2018 22:33

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Neophyte posted:

The best defenestration is a good offenestration.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2018 01:50

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

# ¿ Dec 21, 2018 00:22

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Don Gato posted:

My friends tell me that going drinking with me is like drunk history except with a sliding scale of what language I'm speaking.

I kind of assume that comment also applies to most of this thread.

haha, mea culpa

# ¿ Dec 21, 2018 00:57

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Vahakyla posted:

Also today officers lead the smallest units ever, down to a section or platoon level, from 12-to-40ish guys at the bottom.

Back in the day the junior officer of Roman infantry 80-100 dudes. In ACW, a captain led the company while 1LT took the first half of it and 2LT took the other half. In addition, as mentioned, staff size was smaller and some countries had a very direct line from the regimental commander to the rifleman, the with the commander basically organizing it all alone, until the birth of a modern staff system.

Enlisted ranks had far less ranks, too. To this day, brits have a corporal, sergeant, and staff sergeant. That�s it.

Romans did dabble in some staff-like functions, and they did have a lot of officer ranks and various NCOs but their organization was somewhat unique for a millenia.

I've understood that all but the highest ranking centurion would have been technically ncos.

# ¿ Dec 21, 2018 18:52

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

I hate the lisping Anglolatin.

# ¿ Dec 21, 2018 18:56

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 13:20

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Vahakyla posted:

No. A centurion�s first assignment was something of a Captain Commander/XO/2IC.

He then proceeded up to other commands and staff positions.

Under a centurions Centuria there were lots of NCOs, Optio (kind of a First Sergeant), Tesserarius (kind of like a Ops Sergeant) and lots of Decanii (staff sergeants maybe roughly) who led tent groups of then men. This was the smallest fighting element, but in work duty could divide further.

The Immunes had their own long term specialized NCOs for each sub-branch.

What I meant was that the centurions didn't have comissions.

# ¿ Dec 21, 2018 19:02

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Milhist Thread Part The IVth: sir, my ass is flowing like Sun Tzu's army

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