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My Lovely Horse posted:Oh hey, there's a thread on this. I watched an episode yesterday and I dunno. The show's leaning hard on a female empowerment theme, which is great, but then it's using Satanism as a surrogate for traditional conservative Christian society, which feels kinda... off. Certainly like the show ultimately takes a quite traditional (I want to say, specifically traditionally American) and disapproving stance on its own subject matter. Know what I mean? Beats the real life Church of Satan which is basically just Objectivism. Harvey is actually pretty cool.
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Oct 27, 2018 11:52
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As I always say, subtlety is for the weak. One thing I kinda thought was distinctive about... nearly every incarnation of the franchise is how witches and warlocks are pretty casually amoral and do terrible, hilarious things with their power (Salem typically being a former supervillain under house-arrest and all. Incidentally, seems like they put that part of his character into Ambrose. Does he have precedent?) which casts even Sabrina's more questionable actions into a better light because at least she's well-intentioned. Blackwood is sure taking a while to learn 'you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar'.
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Oct 27, 2018 14:26
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Okay, this is definitely about cycles of abuse both familial and institutional. Which again, is actually hilariously in line with every aspect of witch society is portrayed in every Sabrina incarnation I've seen, including the cartoon.
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Oct 27, 2018 16:33
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cant cook creole bream posted:Yeah, it honestly is. Do you also skip ahead to the last page of a book, or watch the ending credits in the middle of a game? You don't hear much from Christian moral guardians anymore, I think they've realised that no one listens to them or they're used as punchlines and free publicity. Sometimes you see conservative Christian groups posing as feminist/progressive groups now.
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Oct 28, 2018 03:44
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Actually, the fun part about going Full Satan is that most of the complaining about the show will sound like the same made-up nonsense that the Christian Right bangs on about with everything, nobody who doesn't watch the show will believe them and nobody who does watch it will care.
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Oct 28, 2018 04:49
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I think it does a bit of the Harry Potter thing where witch society is really backwards and tends to have retro furnishings because they're so long-lived, rely on magic as much as technology, and don't fix what ain't broke. And Greendale is implied to be a pretty conservative area. The whole thing about Sabrina being infinitely more intelligent, capable and self-aware than your average teen protagonist actually seems to ring really true to what I've seen of the comics (which, at least early on, often play up how inhuman catches can be and are expected to be), and also that she can still easily find herself in over her head when it comes to the magical world where she's only a teenager. She's got a bit of a Dr Strange thing going on; in her own stories she's frequently up against long odds, but to everyone else she's an intelligent and powerful witch with real magical powers who can do things that even extraordinary mortals can't imagine. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Oct 28, 2018 |
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Oct 28, 2018 08:59
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The show's intro does have comics Sabrina appear with Archie briefly showing up on the TV screen in the background. But yeah, Archie, Sabrina, and Josie and the Pussycats all originate from the same loosely connected comics. (Archie generally has a much looser sense of continuity than other comics have shackled themselves to, with a lot of spinoffs and theoretical endings in alternate timelines and such, let alone stuff like Afterlife with Archie or the crossovers) Also, points on the vague timeline note: the mines seem waaaay old-fashioned and seriously outdated compared to the industrialised and mechanised complex you'd expect any modern mine to be. I can believe that the mines are very, very old, but I don't think you typically have wooden supports and individual miners going down into the tunnels with just pickaxes. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Oct 28, 2018 |
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Oct 28, 2018 10:21
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The demons on this show are all hamming it right the hell up. Interestingly, a lot about Sabrina's role and backstory is starting to remind me of some versions of Merlin; a child baptised before their soul could be promised to the Dark Lord, given the powers of a witch but the freedom to use it for the good of others, and standing outside both the paths of dark and light to do what she considers best.
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Oct 28, 2018 11:39
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The Spellmans are fancy, they have golden cutlery for special occasions. (IIRC, gold isn't just super fancy but actually a very good material for cutlery; it's sterile, maintains a pleasant temperature, and soft enough to possibly reduce of risk of chipping teeth) ED: also contributing to the vaguely period piece note; is it just me or does the ambulance that shows up in episode 1x8 look like the Ecto-Mobile, which iirc was a modified 70s ambulance/hearse? Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Oct 28, 2018 |
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Oct 28, 2018 13:32
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1v8: My first thought on seeing the two-headed snail is that snails are hermaproditic, but the true comedy option to be is Blackwood is blessed with brothers... Venture Brothers. Also, seems fitting that Sabrina is absolutely no one to gently caress with when threatened, no matter who you are. She knows her goal and is getting started ASAP. My Lovely Horse posted:Hilda seemed so familiar all the time. It's been a while since Shaun of the Dead, hasn't it. The British mam we all wish we had.
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Oct 28, 2018 15:14
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1x9 beginning: We're going all Pet Semetary with this, aren't we? Also, this show is totally evidence towards my thesis that being devoutly Catholic is the highest form of being goth. It says something that at least according to TVtropes, this is one of the more heroic versions of the Spellman clan so far to date. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Oct 28, 2018 |
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Oct 28, 2018 15:22
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FastestGunAlive posted:Watched six episodes. Episode 1 was a fine intro but I was not feeling it until ep 5, which I loved and was what I expected going in from this show (although I've never read the comics). Like, I could not care less about not-Hogwarts and a half-blood fulfilling destiny UGH, just give me some more of that dark humor/horror vibe, let Sabrina find her way, and have the real world and supernatural slowly intersect I think the answer to about half of your complaints turns out to be that 'Witch society is fuuuucked and Sabrina is having absolutely none of both that and teen romance cliches'. Like, Sabrina's just taking zero bullshit from mortals OR witches and takes problems head-on with everything availaible to her, it's pretty great. Also, look like they do have smart phones. (they must be easy to film, really)
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Oct 29, 2018 04:20
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nessin posted:I think it just highlights how she gets away with it for purely plot bunny reasons. Kinda destroys all credibility of the character. I binged watched the rest of the series (actually just kept it on the background while doing other stuff today) and I think you can best describe the ridiculousness of the whole series by this point in the middle of episode nine when Sabrina is talking back to Zelda trying to justify her actions and she says she stands for doing whats right, when they're literally discussing an incident under which she killed someone and resurrected a flesh eating zombie. 'I learned it from watching you, Aunt Zelda! I learned it from watching you!' Incidentally, 1x10 shows that Zelda can actually be a pretty good parent when she needs to. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Oct 29, 2018 |
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Oct 29, 2018 04:38
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Boris Galerkin posted:And is there anything about this show's world that people who watched the old tv shows or apparently read the comic books (I had no idea this was a comic book, and I have no idea who Archie is) that would know that I don't? I mean I don't want to know about the spoilery stuff that might come up in the next seasons but any basic worldbuilding info would be neat. It's hard to say, between the comics, the TV show, the animated show and various alternate timelines and spinoffs there's been a lot of takes on it. I think I've mentioned that the casual amorality of witch society and Sabrina's thing of being stuck between two worlds (and that it's hard for witches to find love) have always been a key element, but usually played for comedy. Also, on 1x10: ahahaha oh my god I was right, Blackwood has twin brothers, twin Venture Brothers
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Oct 29, 2018 09:38
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Well, that's what I get for jumping the gun. And here I thought Hilda's nightmare was going to be prescient.
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Oct 29, 2018 09:51
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I kinda think of it more like Super Mario Bros of all things; the characters are basically a set of broad archetypes and characteristics with their own expected roles and stories that can be plugged into variety of genres and stories with some tweaking to fit, and they make no bones about putting them back in the box when it's done.
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Oct 29, 2018 11:16
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Paracaidas posted:The most telling moment for me was connecting that with Zelda's nightmare, where she cooks the chubby satanic Sunday schooler and gets chastened by the devil for doing so even with their numbers dwindling. I'm not usually a fan of dream episodes, but I did like they went right into the anxieties of each character with an unquestioning dream-logic. And it seems like a lot of it was foreshadowing of some kind... Zelda's nightmare was relatively low-key, but seems indicative that all the horrible and ridiculous things that witches do really are for nothing, especially since she's contrasted with Hilda's simple life skills. She's the more traditionalist of the two despite her pragmatism, and is seeing the contradictions; that witch society has become dangerously insular, exploitative and self-destructive, claiming to make these sacrifices in the name of the Dark Lord who may in fact not be impressed at all. And also ties in with how Hilda and Zelda immediately back up Sabrina with the Harrowings; even as much as cruelty is all fun and games for them, murder is something else entirely. In short, about everything we see of witch society seems to be in utter contradiction, and Sabrina, being a half-outsider who's already been dealing with the problems of mortal society, can see pretty plainly what's wrong with a society that has far more demands and threats for her than it has incentives. And Lillith is easily capable of taking advantage of all that.
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Oct 29, 2018 13:21
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Boris Galerkin posted:Huh, that’s the scene I was thinking of. I think I got it confused. The Archie comics can get pretty silly. They had a crossover with the Punisher of all things, and more recently kinda milked the crack crossover well dry. (Archie vs the Predator has a hilariously bugfuck ending) There was a Sabrina cartoon in the 00s that had the same voice for Salem (he's also Norbert in Angry Beavers) that went for a while. Was pretty average.
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Oct 29, 2018 14:45
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This is heading towards Sabrina being the legendary Super Satanist isn't it
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Oct 30, 2018 05:21
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(I'm not sure how you figure Mr Satan into that terrible joke I insist on pushing at every opportunity) Also, here you go: https://twitter.com/sisterb24/status/1056737428415877120 Comments are mostly dunking on her. I was right that Christian moms have zero credibility and are basically quaint in this hellworld day and age. (no less that the Satanic church is basically a riff on American Christianity)
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Oct 30, 2018 10:55
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Connor was mentioned to be from outside the coven; an orphan adopted by mortal parents. Either he's self-taught, or from another coven... or something else is going on. It's mentioned that other covens of witches exist- Wardwell claims to be from one- and they may do things differently to the Church of Night we've seen. There's a few possibilities; given the mention of witch hunters (and it's uncertain whether that's simply a title witches give to those who hunt them and their descendants, or has other implications to it) a lone warlock is a likely easy target for them. Might be simply a case where insular and self-obsessed warlock society can't see threats under their very noses while they're busy killing each other for fun and religion.
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Oct 30, 2018 13:28
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Apparently the latest season of Riverdale has a literal D&D cult going on, I wonder if they're revving up for a crossover. Harvey is kind of a dork but that's always been kind of a thing with him. (I remember the cartoon Harvey was basically actually pretty nerdy but the girls were all over him anyway)
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Nov 2, 2018 12:07
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EvilTaytoMan posted:Sabrina absorbed her evil twin while in utero and now that she's a full witch her evil twin will try and take over her body. Or something like that I'm sure we're not going to finish this show without someone going all Venture Bros.
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Nov 3, 2018 06:01
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FeastForCows posted:Final point before I disappear again until I finish the show: How the hell does Sabrina not notice that the teacher lady acts and looks like a different person? Or anyone else, for that matter. I strongly get the impression that the original Mrs Wardwell was a tragically lonely, shy person who no one paid much attention to.
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Nov 3, 2018 18:29
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I knew that statue looked familiar. CAN you copyright what you claim to be a religious icon, though?
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Nov 4, 2018 14:43
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Thing is... it all kinds comes together if Nick Scratch really is the Dark Lord in human guise, since Wardwell said that Sabrina is being groomed to be the Dark Lord's bride, a position Wardwell wants for herself and prefers Sabrina to be a footsoldier. There's a whole bunch of plotters with various levels of information working at cross-purposes and a bunch of people with their petty whims and schemes running into each other.
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Nov 4, 2018 15:12
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BioEnchanted posted:Well maybe they just know that the devil is a lil' man-kid who can't even handle onions, let alone rebellion, without having a fit and threatening punishment. That was a hilarious part of Zelda's dream, the devil being such a picky eater. What, onions too spicy for the lord of hellfire? He has the palette of a white american southerner. The whole "obligate carnivore" thing has always seemed more childish than anything, given he's supposed to be very powerful yet can't handle veggies or dairy without getting the farts. The show will end with him getting recommended a therapist who'll help him unpack his toxic masculinity. The thing about onions is iirc actually a very old superstition or something that the Devil can't abide onions, some relation to how vampires are meant to be weakened by garlic. There's a shitload of bits of obscure lore casually mentioned in the show, at least if you've read a lot of Discworld. It all seems so fitting, too. The Dark Church is just running on so many levels of irony I can't help but love it.
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Nov 4, 2018 18:20
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The soundtrack is a little too obvious, but then again, there's just so many good songs about witches.
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Nov 5, 2018 04:16
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I hope it ends up with a love triangle between Sabrina, Satan and Cthulhu.
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Nov 5, 2018 05:35
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Edmund Lava posted:The one complaint I have about the show it they actually toned it way down from the comic. I get it, but having Sabrina be okay with the devil worship and cannabalism until it affected her friends was a better angle. I still can't wait to see the reaction of her mortal friends to finding out witch society is absolutely everything their crazy-rear end preachers told them it was, at least technically. And Sabrina seemed okay with the signing until she actually heard the technical details rather than the marketing copy. The cannibalism seems like something controversial even among witches, and basically only continues because even most of the would-be sacrificial victims genuinely consider it an honour. I wanna see more of the other teenage witches hanging out with mortals, that's always hilarious.
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Nov 8, 2018 14:20
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Point there.
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Nov 8, 2018 15:50
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:Right, but it shows how Zelda thinks in regards to cannibalism, and she is not one to rock the boat when it comes to church tenets. Zelda's definitely the more old fashioned of the family, but given her reaction to the feast it's implied she preaches a lot more than she'll practice, and her dream came off as basically a caricature of witch society in dreamlike fashion. It seems implied that the current high priest of the dark church is a heavy traditionalist, but Sabrina's father was a reformer and not necessarily unpopular. A small religious community, especially one with living memories of active persecution, is likely to go with whoever's in charge simply because there's no one else with the clout to make changes.
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Nov 8, 2018 18:56
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LongDarkNight posted:Having a good laugh right now imaging Blackwood trying to do normal people poo poo like buy groceries. He's rich, he probably has a personal shopper. They definitely aren't Harry Potter witches, indications from the with hunts actually catching real ones seems to be that they can't do much without prep time.
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Nov 9, 2018 04:54
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Y'know, I was gonna make jokes about the Dark Church being basically bizarro Catholics, but on further thought, they seem to be a lot more heavily based on American Protestants, not just because their coven is self-sufficient and doesn't seem to be directly connected to any higher heirarchy than the High Priest and of course their Dark Lord. Especially with their strongly insular nature and narrative of persecution and martyrdom.
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Nov 9, 2018 12:10
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I get the impression that witch magic can be very powerful but easily interfered with if you know how, often has unintended consequences, and just kinda tends to rub off on people. Like that family curse that causes hereditary blindness but activates The Shinnin', which appears to be something that even witches can't normally do. Also being a friend to witches in rough times might have its perks down the line as well. ('magical non-binary person' is nearly as played out and dubious as 'magical negro', but then again it might be coincidental and possibly an interesting thing to explore.) I also kinda get the impression that 'witch hunter' isn't just a job title or role but a family trait.
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Nov 10, 2018 09:16
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I do like that Sabrina puts it in the terms of 'witches hurting witches', Hilda and Zelda are instantly on board, that they have a justified fear of persecution that easily turns to inward threats, even their own traditions. Ironic that Zelda's dream version of Satan might actually be her own conscience trying to speak to her.
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Nov 10, 2018 11:38
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I imagine the higher-profile warlocks are likely the ones that have the least interaction with mortals. (because they have people to do that for them)
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Nov 12, 2018 22:58
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Phenotype posted:Or arguing with the permit board and the home-owner's association when he wants to add another bedroom for the It doesn't seem like the Spellmans have to worry about money, between living for centuries (or at least a very long time) and having literal magical powers it probably isn't hard for witches to function in mortal society. The mortuary just seems to be a job that suits them well. (and lets them enjoy long pig on occasion) Blackwood is definitely old money, though.
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Nov 13, 2018 06:11
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They did make a thing about how Salem was specifically recruited by Sabrina with the deal of being equal partners rather than expecting servitude, which you'd think should come into play at some point.
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Dec 3, 2018 11:35
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Salem gets food, a house to sleep in, and pets and scritches. Basically,Mymla posted:So, Salem is literally just a cat. To be honest, it's actually a little less weird than him being a warlock who's treated like a housecat because he's in the body of one.
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Dec 4, 2018 10:45
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