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 incoming.Been posting around... thinking about getting a consultation from an employment lawyer because of bad situation at work. I am a dining room manager in a CCRC. I think (hope?) I may have a hostile work environment because after I told my immediate supervisors about what I’m going through with my spouse (I am now a caregiver for recently disabled adult) things have steadily gotten more terrible. My department has trouble firing people (HR won’t let them, HR seems terrified of wrongful termination lawsuits). After 3 months I had a great review. 5 months later I spewed about what I’m going through. 5 months later I am on a PIP that seems unfair. Having a hard time with  advice due to 1. being in a competitive college town. I mostly manage college students working as servers. 2. Unable to look for work in neighboring cities due to wife being recently disabled, must be close 3. Cannot move easily from reason 2 4. On a PIP and they’ll tell that to employers, and as I learned from this weeks HR meeting (I was the only one from my department who bothered to show up) that poo poo will follow you from site to site so I’m afraid to apply for my job at another site in another state where my job is on the market. 5. Afraid to go to HR due to almost openly hostile relationship between them and my department (constant contradictions, HR is the enemy speeches behind closed doors). I wanna quit. Bad. I almost walked out. They keep piling stuff on top of my usual duties, I work 9 hour days as a matter of course (you must be here from 11 am to 8 pm, asked about taking an hour break in the middle, said no). I told them I have anxiety issues behind closed doors, no documentation. The thing is I think they need me. My position was vacant for half a year before I got in. Everyone is stretched. Today I was there from 11am to 10 pm. Hiring is difficult, according to my bosses it is because hr is dragging its rear end. They post the ads I do everything else. Weird huh? How to proceed? I’m going to keep applying around and ditch them first opportunity but it’s hard day to day since the last write up and a lot harder since the PIP. I have a prescription for medical marijuana (they do not know) but I stoped using it to get to sleep because since the PIP I’m on the job hunt again. New employers may drug test and use is not necessarily smiled upon. Smoking cigarettes again. Never near campus (what we call the CCRC). The PIP meeting was vague and contradictory. Stay focused on the task at hand but multitask at all times. Manage time efficiently so you get out on time but deal with problems as they arise and prepare for the next day before you go home. I’ve been advised in threads to apply for an Oregon job at the same company and hope my managers’ opinions won’t matter. I worry my work situation will get worse if I do that and that the job won’t pan out. Can an employment lawyer help? Even to tell me what my options are or how to proceed? Does my anxiety make me a member of a protected group? My wife’s disability (severe anxiety and depression)? Thanks for reading all that. Gonna hit the sack, in at 9am tomorrow to have some hope of performing well. Off at 8pm. On a salary that’s barely breaking even.
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Oct 28, 2018 08:13
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 05:57 |
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Hostile work environment is a very specific legal construct and does not mean that your employer does not like you. You are not a member of a protected class.
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Oct 29, 2018 18:59
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Hate to break it to you, but a PIP generally means "we're going to fire you, but we want a paper trail to justify it in case you try to sue us." Your PIP will have a deadline on it, which you better bet is going to be your last day. If that deadline has passed, then congrats they're desperate and can't fire you yet. But don't think for a second that you have job security, it just means that they haven't found a replacement. If you don't have anything on record (written, phone call, etc.) where your company has said, "we're going to fire BBQ Dave because of BBQ Dave's sick family member," you don't really have a case. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that they illegally fired you. Nobody dumb enough to fire someone illegally is going to put together a PIP and string you along for a while.
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Oct 29, 2018 21:09
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As stated the whole point of what your employer is doing is designed to prevent you from prevailing in any legal or DOL action. I would try to find a better job before it comes to that if possible.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:07
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Just piling on so it’s clear that this is the norm, not just a here and there mind of thing: a PIP is an official Declaration of Intent to Terminate from an employer who has no intention of paying a dime in unemployment comp.
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Nov 1, 2018 23:20
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Echo'ing all of these comments. You don't seem to be in a protected class like a minority, female, etc and actively discriminated against for that reason and unless you're in a state like California, you likely have little protection (even so, probably limited for what's going on). The fact that they even took the step of a PIP shows they're aware enough for CYA. A colleague of mine (woman in her 50's) was in a similar situation to what I describe below re PIP and suggested I talk to an attorney - I paid like $400 since I was sure my righteous anger and bitterness about how I was treated meant I was entitled to something but ultimately there wasn't much to do unless I wanted to fight a losing battle for the possibility of a few grand. IANAL but I wouldn't waste your time and money on one given what you've described. E/N of personal context: not long ago, I was also in a toxic situation at a goddamn HR-oriented company who are regularly in the "Best Places to Work" lists so presumably would be more attuned to personnel issues. That very much turned out to not be the case. In 2016, new management came in and for whatever reason, we didn't click. I had never had formal quarterly annual reviews as warnings, but regulary I was put on a pretty comprehensive PIP in October; I somehow completed the PIP but I was naive and thought that since I "passed it" I could get past it. Despite all the BS, I ended up overachieving on total year's expectations, to the degree I was a top performer in the region despite being relatively new and variety of other obstacles. Then, two days after Christmas, I was told I had 30 days to find a new job at the company or I was out. Then I basically accepted a demotion to stay on since I wanted to get a sizable commission check and free trip to Hawaii but the toxicity eventually caught up with me plus my new boss was probably the worst manager I've ever dealt with. I was put on another PIP in July which REALLY should've been a warning to jump ship - I didn't and was eventually terminated in August, 2 years to the day I joined. In short: the best thing you can do is be as active as possible in finding a new gig and leave on your own accord - I'm sure it's very difficult now given your caretaker situation and I feel for you. Don't be dumb and naive like I was and think because you're doing everything management asks, you can get through it. Even if management seems to view them as the enemy, HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND either. Their charter is to protect the company. That's it. I'd strongly suggest you leave ASAP; at least that way, you control the narrative around your departure to the next employer rather than answering harder questions around why you were terminated. I wish I'd done things much differently in my situation but learned some tough lessons, happy to discuss in more detail via PM if you're like.
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Nov 2, 2018 19:33
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I mean the critical thing that most people have to learn the hard way is that the title Performance Improvement Plan is a lie. They're not interested in improving your performance; they've already decided to fire you, and also that they don't want to pay any unemployment comp (or, if you're a protected minority, expose themselves to a lawsuit), and the PIP's purpose is to officially tell you to hit the road.
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Nov 2, 2018 21:13
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Eric the Mauve posted:I mean the critical thing that most people have to learn the hard way is that the title Performance Improvement Plan is a lie. They're not interested in improving your performance; they've already decided to fire you, and also that they don't want to pay any unemployment comp (or, if you're a protected minority, expose themselves to a lawsuit), and the PIP's purpose is to officially tell you to hit the road. Yeah, absolutely this. I'm definitely one who learned the hard way. It's at best a stay of execution, not a potential pardon; the end result is inevitable. BBQ Dave posted:I’ve been advised in threads to apply for an Oregon job at the same company and hope my managers’ opinions won’t matter. I worry my work situation will get worse if I do that and that the job won’t pan out. Applying to a new job within the same company might not necessarily work out either IMO - they'll very likely want to speak with your current management to understand why you're looking to move and/or they'll need to approve the transition. They probably won't give a glowing review just to get you out of their hair as they already have the PIP process in place and unlikely to want to do you any favors. Even if you do move somewhere else, you've already been put on a PIP once at that company, you will likely be under extra scrutiny and thin ice regardless of where you land and who knows for how long. BBQ Dave posted:I told my immediate supervisors about what I’m going through with my spouse (I am now a caregiver for recently disabled adult) things have steadily gotten more terrible Given the significant burden you're dealing with, you might be eligible for that so I'd suggest researching that (there's usually a corporate handbook that covers all of this somewhere and/or it might be in a contract you signed). It won't resolve your PIP but if you're already a dead man walking there, this could potentially buy you some time to take care of yourself/SO and look while still receiving some income. If you do this, I strongly suggest you DO NOT TELL HR that you're considering it or ask for info from them; just complete and submit the paperwork and associated documentation when you're ready. Otherwise, I could absolutely see HR tipping off your management and they deciding to cut you loose anyway. There could be some murky legal stuff you could pursue potentially if they did this after you've documented and notified them you intended to do so but you probably don't want to risk it. I don't have PM's but you can email me at v e l o c i r a p s t a r 1 at gma1l
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Nov 2, 2018 22:34
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velocirapstar posted:Yeah, absolutely this. I'm definitely one who learned the hard way. It's at best a stay of execution, not a potential pardon; the end result is inevitable. It's much more analogous to a sentencing. The date of execution is still future, but it's settled.
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Nov 2, 2018 22:37
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Thanks all. I got out. You were all right on the money. Because I couldn’t make the transfer without a recommendation I asked the chef and she told me I had to talk to the guy who wanted to fire me. I spoke with him alone and couched the whole thing as a positive for my family that I wanted. Not sure if he was eager to get rid of me or actually cared or some combination but he climbed on board and told me to get going on it immediately. He emailed the department head to let them know my application was coming and coached me on the interview like three or four times. Told me not to mention the PIP either. Drove up for the interview, aced it, and even managed to negotiate for a little more money. That week the PIP was due. Boss man said it was my last week and my relationship with the company had to end before the PIP counted down or he’d have to fire me. I had an offer letter in hand so I cooperated. On my last day he told me that the PIP was gone, out of my file and nobody at the new site knew about it. I do not believe this, but there is cause to. The PIP was a mess on paper and I demanded meetings with a lot of people and took careful notes during the meetings. Lots of dirt on my department and hr to throw around on my way out. Not sure if it mattered but the clients and employees (outside of the iron inner circle) loved me there, I could have made a lot of trouble if I wanted. I made no threats, but they knew I had nothing to lose. I’ll never know what happened behind closed doors but I think what happened is I presented them with a better option than firing me, so they helped. Simple as that. I’m at the new site for a week now, mobilized family to help move fast. Things are going good. I’m not breathing easy until my two month probation period is up. Thanks for all the advice, all of you. I nearly went off the rails every day for a month, doubting this kind of outcome was possible. A narrow thing to be sure, but possible. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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Jan 22, 2019 18:14
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:You are not a member of a protected class. velocirapstar posted:You don't seem to be in a protected class like a minority, female, etc There is no such thing as a person who is not a member of a protected class. Anyone can be a victim of discrimination, and if that discrimination is on the basis of race, gender, etc. then it is illegal. The only exception is age, because age discrimination is specifically defined as applying to people 40+ years old.
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Jan 22, 2019 21:28
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BBQ Dave posted:
Absolutely positively none of this matters. Even IF you had decided to act like a child and try to throw around dirt after you got fired, nobody would believe it. It's your word against theirs unless you have concrete proof, which would involve lawyers, subpoenas, and recorded material (audio/video, e-mails, etc.). On top of it all, absolutely positively none of that would have helped you. Unless someone did something illegal, it'd only end up looking bad for you after you were gone. MAYBE it would have made you feel better, but you'd have burned all the bridges. Even if you had some friends left over, they'd have seen the mess you tried to kick up and thought less of you. Glad you got out in one piece, but drat dude you got some growing up to do. Just to be reiterate, in the vast majority of cases you can be fired for any reason, or for no reason. Most states are "At-Will" employment, which means that barring some sort of actual legally binding contract (for contract workers, unions, etc.), either party can end the relationship at any time for any reason (except as prohibited by law, i.e. discrimination). As mentioned several times, a PIP is used by employers to make the firing process cleaner. It provides a paper trail that can be used in the case of a wrongful termination lawsuit as evidence that you were fired for just cause. It can be literally made up, vague, generic bullshit and it doesn't matter. Unless you can provide hard evidence that you were illegally fired, you have no case. Honestly the PIP was probably the best thing that could have happened to you because it gave you the opportunity and time to find something else. Devonaut posted:There is no such thing as a person who is not a member of a protected class. Anyone can be a victim of discrimination, and if that discrimination is on the basis of race, gender, etc. then it is illegal. OK so technically you're right, but the point was that BBQ Dave wasn't apparently being fired for any reason that would apply to a protected class. Even though you may be part of a protected class, you would have to be discriminated against BECAUSE of that. His suspicion for the reason he was being fired had nothing to do with protected classes as defined by law.
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Jan 23, 2019 02:06
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DaveSauce posted:Absolutely positively none of this matters. Even IF you had decided to act like a child and try to throw around dirt after you got fired, nobody would believe it. It's your word against theirs unless you have concrete proof, which would involve lawyers, subpoenas, and recorded material (audio/video, e-mails, etc.). I agree, thanks. It was a good thing and I have growing up to do. That’s why I came here to get some outside perspective. I moved from the kitchen to management. The learning cure was challenging. Most advice from friends and family was go loud don’t let them mess with you.
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Jan 23, 2019 17:56
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DaveSauce posted:Absolutely positively none of this matters. Even IF you had decided to act like a child and try to throw around dirt after you got fired, nobody would believe it. It's your word against theirs unless you have concrete proof, which would involve lawyers, subpoenas, and recorded material (audio/video, e-mails, etc.). This is critical. I had to learn all of this the hard way myself. Ultimately, you can have pages and pages of notes, screenshots, paperwork, etc. showing how your supervisors are bungling the process, lying to HR, not giving you a fair shot, being untruthful, screwing clients or colleagues, and so on. They will still fire you. This isn't politics, you're not going to convince them of anything by showing them you have "dirt" on them. The big exception is if what they're doing is illegal, in which case you need to jump ship instead of blackmailing them and making yourself complicit. Unlike in a lot of spheres where this note-taking and politics matters, business has the ultimate trump card of showing you the door and severing all ties with you. Boom, you're no longer a problem for them. HR might be miffed that your manager is a jerk and cut a bunch of corners in the process, but they're also going to view you as a problem for collecting all that info and ruffling so many feathers. And forget about the customers and vendors and clients and how much they love you. HR views that as the result of skills which are readily found in the general labor market. And let's be honest: those outsiders will keep coming back if they replace you, won't they? Anyway, it sounds like you made the right move.
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May 27, 2019 21:07
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Glad it worked out for you, I just wanted to say that HR works for the company and not you anyway, they will pull the rug out from under you when you least expect it unless your proof of misconduct(s) against you are ironclad v.s their whatever they want to declare as your faults for firing you and they are scared of you. It took owing taxes on 1099 and joining a union to see all the ways i'd been screwed over throughout my working days. Thousands of dollars and drama.
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Aug 9, 2019 02:46
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Hey all just checking in to say thanks again for the advice. I played it right thanks to your advice and things are going great at my new site. Getting there was a narrow thing but I went great guns, negotiated for a small raise and all the PIP bs magically went away and stayed away. I worked through covid, clients and coworkers love me and I’m three weeks from getting my MBA, I went to school alongside my new boss. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. BBQ Dave fucked around with this message at 05:59 on May 9, 2021 |
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May 9, 2021 05:50
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BBQ Dave posted:Getting there was a narrow thing but I went great guns, negotiated Interviewer: "Why should we hire you at our company?" You: "Actually, you can't afford not to!" *pulls back coat to reveal 9 mm*
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May 10, 2021 07:56
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 05:57 |
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SpelledBackwards posted:Interviewer: "Why should we hire you at our company?" "Head of personnel, kid."
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May 11, 2021 03:46
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