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Dave Matthews Big Fan!
Nov 10, 2009
side b stuff: so snowgrave (the spell) is definitely going to play a part in upcoming chapters right? I wanted to see what would happen if you made it to the berdly fight but just used the regular ice spell on him to finish it and it just immediately switches over to the normal route. afterwards though you still have snowgrave learned and can go obliterate some mice and they fade away with a unique death animation instead of just freezing over. seems like an interesting thing to implement for something almost nobody will ever see

also I know it's 100% just so the scope didn't balloon out of control but it's very funny how everything returns completely to normal if you spare berdly, frozen enemies disappear, noelle plays her scared animations in battle again, the golden birdley/queen statue is there if you backtrack a bit. you can even go back to where spamton was and get the toby scene

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Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007
on further consideration, i'm more certain that ralsei's intentions are on the level, because it'd make the really unwholesome thing about him stand out even more. he's a sympathy trap. the kid is laser-calibrated to be appealing to players, especially ones coming from undertale, but it's become increasingly clear that kris doesn't particularly like them at all - and probably for the same reason the players do, ie his resemblance to asriel - and our well-meaning hugs and compliments to him are probably extremely unpleasant from kris's perspective

ralsei being a secret villain would undermine that. his "flaw" isn't that he has some nefarious agenda up his sleeve, it's that he's a perfectly sweet and decent guy that kris doesn't want to be around, while most players take every opportunity to shove them together while going "NOW KISS"


e: and it gets worse when you take into account ralsei's obvious infatuation with kris, if you stay dead silent during the boat ride he's still struggling to come up with ways to spin it positively. given the perspective tricks he's been playing on "us," i wonder if he's trying to suss out how much of his interactions with kris are actually of kris's own volition

Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Sep 24, 2021

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013





Oxxidation posted:

on further consideration, i'm more certain that ralsei's intentions are on the level, because it'd make the really unwholesome thing about him stand out even more. he's a sympathy trap. the kid is laser-calibrated to be appealing to players, especially ones coming from undertale, but it's become increasingly clear that kris doesn't particularly like them at all - and probably for the same reason the players do, ie his resemblance to asriel - and our well-meaning hugs and compliments to him are probably extremely unpleasant from kris's perspective

ralsei being a secret villain would undermine that. his "flaw" isn't that he has some nefarious agenda up his sleeve, it's that he's a perfectly sweet and decent guy that kris doesn't want to be around, while most players take every opportunity to shove them together while going "NOW KISS"


e: and it gets worse when you take into account ralsei's obvious infatuation with kris, if you stay dead silent during the boat ride he's still struggling to come up with ways to spin it positively. given the perspective tricks he's been playing on "us," i wonder if he's trying to suss out how much of his interactions with kris are actually of kris's own volition

The only dark, calculating thoughts that boy possesses are trying to figure out the best possible moment to kiss Kirs, and would it make him a dirty boy if he did so.


Also maybe being secretly evil. I dunno. That coin is still in the air

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.
ralsei's astral projection stuff and his "don't think about this" after the Spammy fight come across much more as like, almost a guidance councilor than a manipulator

Macaluso
Sep 23, 2005

I HATE THAT HEDGEHOG, BROTHER!
I think Ralsei is intentionally meant to come across as kind of suspicious but I feel like in the end he's gonna be genuine, it's just meant to throw you off

somepartsareme
Mar 10, 2012

Diggle Hell is a Real
(Swingin') Place
Yeah, he obviously has some kind of ulterior motive or eventual conflict with us, but having him just be secretly the bad guy feels way too shallow for this game

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

nine-gear crow posted:

The only dark, calculating thoughts that boy possesses are trying to figure out the best possible moment to kiss Kirs, and would it make him a dirty boy if he did so.


Also maybe being secretly evil. I dunno. That coin is still in the air

i keep trying to find sneaky ways that he can be nefarious and the train of thought gets derailed halfway in

for example: consider that he's not actually interested in kris at all, but in us. all his niceness to kris is just him taking advantage of the player's perception of kris as a player-insert, so that he can "befriend" us through them. but then what about susie? ralsei is over the moon for that girl, as he should be. if he was only interested in reaching out to people who exist in reality - like, real-reality - then he probably wouldn't lavish so much care and attention on her as well

there's also his castle and the way he tailors it to the party. ralsei might not want lightners opening up more dark worlds, but he could be interested in keeping them in his dark world, where he's able to control things...except he has no actual authority over any of his "subjects" and mostly runs around catering to their needs while they do their own thing. a few of them say outright that they just ignore when he asks them to do stuff. all of his actions, seen and unseen, point to motivations no more complicated than Friends and Fun, and not the spooky kind either

somepartsareme
Mar 10, 2012

Diggle Hell is a Real
(Swingin') Place

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013





Oxxidation posted:

i keep trying to find sneaky ways that he can be nefarious and the train of thought gets derailed halfway in

for example: consider that he's not actually interested in kris at all, but in us. all his niceness to kris is just him taking advantage of the player's perception of kris as a player-insert, so that he can "befriend" us through them. but then what about susie? ralsei is over the moon for that girl, as he should be. if he was only interested in reaching out to people who exist in reality - like, real-reality - then he probably wouldn't lavish so much care and attention on her as well

there's also his castle and the way he tailors it to the party. ralsei might not want lightners opening up more dark worlds, but he could be interested in keeping them in his dark world, where he's able to control things...except he has no actual authority over any of his "subjects" and mostly runs around catering to their needs while they do their own thing. a few of them say outright that they just ignore when he asks them to do stuff. all of his actions, seen and unseen, point to motivations no more complicated than Friends and Fun, and not the spooky kind either


I think Ralsei is probably gonna be Deltarune's version of Sans for its narrative: a good friend who's in your corner if you do everything right, and the final emergency valve to keep everything from going to hell if you, the player, turn out to be a murderous destructive psychopath. He's just a lot more active and timid compared to Sans. Because the big threat to all existence is the Roaring, and he does not what the Roaring to occur under any circumstances and proves to be his most flat out assertive when Queen, Noelle, and Berdly all come within inches of kicking it off.

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

I honestly I have no idea who cannibal[SIC] is and I do not know why I should know.

syq dude, just syq!
Doesn't the dialogue between queen and ralsei imply that darkner leaders have some kind of intrinsic duty to make lightners happy?

It gets glossed over, but implies something a little bit hosed up deep down.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!
The whole "I don't think what just happened means anything better to not think about it" to me felt like some ol fashioned toxic positivity more than anything

dmboogie
Oct 4, 2013

ikanreed posted:

Doesn't the dialogue between queen and ralsei imply that darkner leaders have some kind of intrinsic duty to make lightners happy?

It gets glossed over, but implies something a little bit hosed up deep down.

there was a bit like that between ralsei and lancer in chapter 1 that was similarly off-putting yeah, it even weirded susie out

I Am Just a Box
Jul 20, 2011
I belong here. I contain only inanimate objects. Nothing is amiss.

Blockhouse posted:

The whole "I don't think what just happened means anything better to not think about it" to me felt like some ol fashioned toxic positivity more than anything

This is what I take away from Ralsei. The first two chapters already seen to have presented us with three prominent darkners who seem tailor-made to appeal to and build the self-esteem of specific lightners. Lancer exists to be what Susie needs. The Queen exists to build Noelle up. And Ralsei will bend over backwards at any opportunity to try to make Kris happy, even if that's actually an unhealthy coping mechanism in that situation. Of course, it's interesting that we're getting these clues now that in Kris's case, they don't actually seem to like Ralsei doing any of this.

Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011

Muldoon
If that's how you're supposed to feel about Ralsei my experience is way off. I really don't care about him all that strongly, one way or the other. In Chapter 1 I was all for Lancer and Susie's shenanigans, which Ralsei also fully supported, so that was cool. In Chapter 2 I just wanted to look out for Noelle while also being on board with anything Queen got up to, and I was happy Queen eventually relented, let Noelle go, and took up residence as Lancer's dad. I was actually kind of annoyed Noelle loses the party slot when you reunite with Ralsei.

Then I saw nobody else caring about him, either, with Queen flat out forgetting he exists, Lancer learning Kris' name but not Ralsei's, and nobody liking Ralsei Tea other than Susie, who likes everyone, because she is the best, and I kinda felt bad about it. Sorry Ralsei you're the fourth wheel.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011

I certainly dont have deep-seated issues involving birthdays.

Oxyclean posted:

Then why would there be anything about him coming back? Keeping Kris out of the loop? It doesn't feel like that subject is particular sensitive when it comes up.

It would create parallels with Noelle & Dess.

But I do almost think there is something that feels suspicious about Asriel's absence.

It also kinda feels like Kris is taking 'Hes gone to college' a little hard, right?

Son of Thunderbeast
Sep 21, 2002
If darkners are what happens to lost or forgotten toys, what happens to a lost or forgotten darkner? :ohdear:

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

Son of Thunderbeast posted:

If darkners are what happens to lost or forgotten toys, what happens to a lost or forgotten darkner? :ohdear:

Horror movie.

Snake Maze
Jul 13, 2016

3.85 Billion years ago
  • Having seen the explosion on the moon, the Devil comes to Venus

Son of Thunderbeast posted:

If darkners are what happens to lost or forgotten toys, what happens to a lost or forgotten darkner? :ohdear:

They turn into an optional superboss.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011

ikanreed posted:

Doesn't the dialogue between queen and ralsei imply that darkner leaders have some kind of intrinsic duty to make lightners happy?

It gets glossed over, but implies something a little bit hosed up deep down.
It really makes Spamton even more pathos-inducing, since even before he got his artificially-induced big break he wasn't even able to successfully fulfill that "duty" because no one ever interacted with his ads.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

Motherfucker posted:

It also kinda feels like Kris is taking 'Hes gone to college' a little hard, right?

more like Asriel leaving was the last straw in a long line of lovely things happening to Kris’s family that drove them to do some questionable things

we know that they were initially just googling when school lets out and waiting for him to come home like any other kid, all this eldritch nonsense is a recent development

Nep-Nep
May 15, 2004

Just one more thing!

Motherfucker posted:

It also kinda feels like Kris is taking 'Hes gone to college' a little hard, right?

Kris, having never died, is simply not prepared to pay 9999g for the armor Asriel will learn to craft there.

Digamma-F-Wau
Mar 22, 2016

It is curious and wants to accept all kinds of challenges
okay this is probably going full :tinfoil: but Wingdings is one of the fonts designed by Charles Bigelow and Kris Holmes

repiv
Aug 13, 2009


https://twitter.com/taffybuns/status/1440206093653712911

Catgirl Al Capone
Dec 15, 2007

I think Ralsei is some sort of face-stealing demon who took his appearance from what Kris wants to see most to try to keep them engaged after the first adventure, but he's doing it out of loneliness and not malice.

Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

~Groovy~



Susie has powerful big sister vibes.

Ralsei is her little brother now, society must come to accept this as truth.

Flesnolk
Apr 11, 2012
Is there an equivalent to holding down C to skip dialogue on PS4?

Augus
Mar 9, 2015


Motherfucker posted:

It also kinda feels like Kris is taking 'Hes gone to college' a little hard, right?

Kris is a weird, quiet kid. It’s natural that they’d be really attached to their brother, he was probably one of the only people they really felt comfortable around.

Terper
Jun 26, 2012


ikanreed posted:

Doesn't the dialogue between queen and ralsei imply that darkner leaders have some kind of intrinsic duty to make lightners happy?

It gets glossed over, but implies something a little bit hosed up deep down.

Not just the leaders, but all Darkners. Going by the intro, when Ralsei asks you to collect all the things from the abandoned playroom (and then the librarby), they're literal objects designed to entertain. Playing cards, toys, plushies. The King berates the Lightners for abandoning them - no one had played with them for a long time. In this chapter, a computer without internet, and in the next, seemingly a TV that has been unplugged for a long time, gathering dust. And potentially even How To Draw Dragons, left on the bottom shelf, never to be touched or returned to the Librarby.

Son of Thunderbeast
Sep 21, 2002

Snake Maze posted:

They turn into an optional superboss.

Looks like Brawlsei's back on the menu

FZeroRacer
Apr 8, 2009

Oxxidation posted:

on further consideration, i'm more certain that ralsei's intentions are on the level, because it'd make the really unwholesome thing about him stand out even more. he's a sympathy trap. the kid is laser-calibrated to be appealing to players, especially ones coming from undertale, but it's become increasingly clear that kris doesn't particularly like them at all - and probably for the same reason the players do, ie his resemblance to asriel - and our well-meaning hugs and compliments to him are probably extremely unpleasant from kris's perspective

ralsei being a secret villain would undermine that. his "flaw" isn't that he has some nefarious agenda up his sleeve, it's that he's a perfectly sweet and decent guy that kris doesn't want to be around, while most players take every opportunity to shove them together while going "NOW KISS"


e: and it gets worse when you take into account ralsei's obvious infatuation with kris, if you stay dead silent during the boat ride he's still struggling to come up with ways to spin it positively. given the perspective tricks he's been playing on "us," i wonder if he's trying to suss out how much of his interactions with kris are actually of kris's own volition
i think to add onto that there's a sort of really interesting contrast when you compare how Kris treats Noelle when they're goofing around. The reactions Kris can take and the way they can act ends up being a lot more genuine than most of their reactions to anything that has to do with Ralsei. If I recall a lot of the choices you have w/ Ralsei tend to deal with how 'you' react (in the ambiguous way) versus how Kris reacts.

In many ways Ralsei is the exact same sort of sympathy trap as Asgore. The difference is that you get much stronger indications that people don't like Asgore for the act he's doing, including from Kris.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

Flesnolk posted:

Is there an equivalent to holding down C to skip dialogue on PS4?

on my xbox controller for pc it's holding down Y so I'm assuming Triangle on PS4?

Nostalgamus
Sep 28, 2010

Terper posted:

And potentially even How To Draw Dragons, left on the bottom shelf, never to be touched or returned to the Librarby.

Oh god, that's probavbly going to come up in Chapter 3.

Anyway, I read on the wiki that the Rouxls Kaard battle has some unique actions if you made a duck in chapter 1 (Apparently the duck falls in love with the swan boat and refuses to attack), but I couldn't find any video of that on youtube. Does anyone have a clip of that?

I did find this video of what happens if you lose, which is pretty funny:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAKxoNEzbJo

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

Blockhouse posted:

on my xbox controller for pc it's holding down Y so I'm assuming Triangle on PS4?

It’s triangle, yeah. Also is it just me or are there some weird moments of slowdown in the PS4 version?

Flesnolk
Apr 11, 2012
Tried triangle, nothing happened

Jen X
Sep 29, 2014

To bring light to the darkness, whether that darkness be ignorance, injustice, apathy, or stagnation.
Ralsei seems desperate to please kris, entirely aware of the player, and obviously concerned about his role and the role of other darkeners. I figure that he’s not evil, he was just somehow made/given life by kris without our intervention (possibly by accident) and is currently trying really hard to figure out how to placate the player, help his creator, fulfill his role in the prophecy, and, along the way, make kris adore him back. A darker interpretation would be that he wants kris to love him and will happily accept the player’s adoration as transmitted through the questionably willingly controlled Kris in lieu of the real deal.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

Flesnolk posted:

Tried triangle, nothing happened

You have to hold it to skip through dialogue

kaleedity
Feb 27, 2016



comedy option is ralsei seeking to cover the world in darkness as the earth is destroyed re: his prophecy but this is literally what all affected or involved want anyway so it remains unironically good. The only tricks are to ensure the darkness is his so that others don't mess it up

Son of Thunderbeast
Sep 21, 2002

Flesnolk posted:

Tried triangle, nothing happened

Try holding B

Flesnolk
Apr 11, 2012

Larryb posted:

You have to hold it to skip through dialogue

Did

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Electric Phantasm
Apr 7, 2011

YOSPOS

Nostalgamus posted:

Oh god, that's probavbly going to come up in Chapter 3.

Anyway, I read on the wiki that the Rouxls Kaard battle has some unique actions if you made a duck in chapter 1 (Apparently the duck falls in love with the swan boat and refuses to attack), but I couldn't find any video of that on youtube. Does anyone have a clip of that?

I did find this video of what happens if you lose, which is pretty funny:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAKxoNEzbJo

"You lose"

"Battle won!"

Is a real good joke.

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