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I suspect you're going to find this run fairly easy. Easy/easy golems is a super strong buff in your favor and you've only increased the overall difficulty a little bit from the first game. On the other hand, miners + trains + devourer + no wave warnings adds a lot of extra plates to spin, and your harsh AIP over time means you need to be pretty efficient about spinning them. I never tried settings anything like this so I'm really curious to see how it plays out. Sindai fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jan 16, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 01:51
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I've been watching your runs from the start of the thread, but haven't commented yet. Thanks for all the tutorials, I played some AI war (maybe a demo version?) a number of years ago, but couldn't figure out how it worked at all, so this has been really instructive. Question: why are you continuing to use auto AI progress when you've admitted that even the top players of the game tend to leave that off? Why are you still doing so when you lost the last game?
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Jan 16, 2019 09:14
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lunnrais posted:why are you continuing to use auto AI progress when you've admitted that even the top players of the game tend to leave that off? Why are you still doing so when you lost the last game? Glad you're finding this useful in understanding the game! As to the question here: ** As discussed I don't think AIP is why I lost the last game. Obviously it contributes but several exo-galactic waves into a cycle they would have started getting painful regardless of the AIP, and it never got above 300 - it was barely into tech level 2. ** AI War is designed so you can do whatever you want, so a lot of this is preference and I try not to be too heavy-handed about it. Having said that, I quite strongly prefer to have some form of AI Progress over time. How much it should be is debatable but I think it's important to have that time pressure. A lot of players prefer to have more control over it than, IMO, the player should have in this setting. Going back to the pest analogy, if you have an infestation of rodents or insects in your home, the longer it goes on without you being able to eradicate it the more concerned you're going to be - even if it's not causing additional problems. I.e. you'd probably start by making sure you aren't attracting them with food laying out, close off any obvious easy access points, etc. Then you'd progress to traps, and eventually you're probably going to hire an exterminator etc. Similarly, the longer the game goes on with the AI not being able to eradicate the remnants of the pesky human resistance, it makes a lot more sense to me that the AI would become increasingly concerned by this. Accordingly, I'd rather (numbers are hypothetical here and just used for sake of discussion) peak at being able to beat the game at 8.3 or whatever with a decent level of auto-AIP than play it at 9 difficulty with none. I think the recommended settings are close to where I'd like to stay, though you can make an argument for somewhat different levels you'd probably have a hard time convincing me that the game is better with it off completely. I simply have a difference of opinion/preference with most of the AI War community on that point.
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Jan 16, 2019 22:04
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AI War is probably an objectively better strategy game with some form of time pressure, since that makes metal into a precious resource instead of something you effectively have an infinite amount of by turning the game speed all the way up and waiting. It gets especially bad if you start heavily using matter converters. It's worth noting that it doesn't have to be AIP over time, though. Since most sources of exogalactic attacks escalate over time they count too. But given a choice most people like to decrease their stress level by not having that pressure. I think that's fine as long as you house rule yourself against abusing matter converters. Sindai fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Jan 17, 2019 |
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Jan 17, 2019 17:35
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 Traders, Mirrors, and More The Zenith Trade Ship shows up VERY early, so we take a look at its wares before turrets are even in place. Then we find something new nearby, a Distribution Node, while facing the first couple of AI waves. One of them gets way too close for comfort - a Plasma Siege again, naturally - but we also run into some new ship types. I think it's safe to say one of the AI foes is the Zenith Descendant, and the other one definitely isn't a turtle. More salvage, but also more attacks to deal with. We'll see how that shakes out. It's time to decide where my first expansion moves will be. Up Next There are no good and easy systems to take here; it's either one or the other. Still, it's time to get moving.
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Jan 17, 2019 22:23
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Practically everything the Trader has is worthwhile except ion cannons, but since they're all limited to 1 or 2 you need to create a wave target system to put them all in. About the mark 2 jammer - unlike the mark 1, it only reduces enemy range. So the mark 1 is generally not very useful, but mark 2 is fantastic. Black Hole Machine - useful in chokepoint systems with more than one exit wormhole (so you can't just put your command station and forcefield stack on the exit) and to prevent very large waves from giving up and retreating to become threat before you kill them all. Also more salvage.
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Jan 18, 2019 01:48
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Is there any indicator on the map if you've explored all the wormholes in a system or not? If not, I can see exploration getting really annoying...
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Jan 18, 2019 12:27
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Edit: Actually forget all that because it isn't true. Just realized that one of the galaxy map filters is 'Unexplored Wormholes' which works well for identifying systems that have them.
Strategic Sage fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jan 19, 2019 |
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Jan 19, 2019 00:39
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A Series of Unfortunate Golems Too much to really put it all into a short summary. A regular pattern of scout-pause-expand-pause-scout-pause etc. continues as I uncover a number of things about this particular AI War cocktail. A few different versions of Golem are discovered - or discover us - and much exploration happens as well. By the end of it most of the systems adjacent to Laetitia are under our control, and we have more of both questions and answers. Also seen for the first time here are the following AI Structures: Zenith Reserve, Alarm Post, AI Co-Processor, Astro Train Station, and Core Warhead Interceptor. Along with that, we run into our first Astro Train, thankfully some distance away. Welp, that's a nice appetizer for our first half-hour of AI War, Zenith Remnant version. I'm thinking just now that my brain may explode before I make it through all the expansions. One thing I am planning on starting to do is prioritize acquiring ships we haven't yet seen, just for diversity's sake. In some cases it might be sub-optimal, but I wasn't a big fan of the Autocannon Minipod until it became a hero of the fleet either so I may end up with more similar surprises. Unlocks: Mk III Scout Drones Up Next That beachhead on Prokne needs to happen yesterday, and energy is still tight so grabbing Aspasia soon will be important as well. Beyond that, I have yet to formulate a coherent strategy.
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Jan 19, 2019 22:21
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Hmm, no clue on what the second AI is yet. Probably one of the more or less vanilla ones like Bully or Assassin.
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Jan 20, 2019 17:58
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Neither of those are correct. The answer to that question is coming up in the 5th session … unless you guess it first.
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Jan 23, 2019 06:48
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Vampire Claws SUCK I was quite annoyed at myself for a basic error in this one. I spent much of this spinning my wheels, which is never a good idea in this game. That's because I misdiagnosed the treatment for Vampire Claws, which decided to cause me a significant amount of pain. They are cloaked bastages that only de-cloack to attact, and heal by doing damage. Not only that, but the AI was pretty tricky here in only using them to attack vital structures. Lessons learned: Read the Bloody Fine Print and Always Be Ready for Cloaked Enemies! Frankly, I was lucky that things didn't get worse than they did. Up Next I finally decide on a strategy to get into the midgame. I'm not positive it's the best one, but at this point any plan I stick to is better than not having one at all, and I think it'll do.
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Jan 23, 2019 06:52
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I think you're seeing why going over 80 systems actually increases the difficulty - all the goodies are further apart, which means taking more systems just to clear paths, which means more AIP. My guess is your random scout deaths are caused by tachyon trains, since they give system-wide coverage. Now I see why trains are regarded as super annoying. Your main goal should probably be to get at least one golem, since so many are nearby. They're generally capable of soloing a whole fleet or most systems without a mass driver. The botnet in particular makes ordinary AI fleets a permanent non-issue. Sindai fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 08:24
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You're right on the astro trains - that thought entered my mind but I didn't mention it in the video. I did find a goal to pursue, but I think going for the golems is premature right now. My reasoning for that is I need 30 million metal to repair them before they are of any use. That will take FOREVER early-game, and I expect the time (in game hours) of this effort to be longer than the other two, win or lose, for that reason. I also think that for energy purposes, getting the Zenith Power Generator up is really my next big thing to pour metal into. That'll give me the resources to hopefully maintain defenses, a fleet, and power Golems/OMDs/whattheheckevers at the same time.
Strategic Sage fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 06:30
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I want to say repair costs are actually only a fraction of build costs shown in the ship tool tips, because I remember getting golems fairly early in a campaign without excessive time waiting for metal. They're expensive, but I'm 100% sure they aren't superfortress expensive. You're right about the ZPG though. It's always top priority when it comes to trader goodies. Sindai fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 07:31
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Anything else you can do for your power situation other than take new systems or buy from the trader? You're in a huge crunch with power
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Jan 24, 2019 13:35
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This LP got me to start putting hours into the sequel; unfortunately I keep getting stuck without being sure how to approach a given situation. In particular the game seems to lack transports which makes targetting specific locations a great deal harder. This seems to result in a much slower pace of advance as you have to slowly grind through planets between you and your destination so you can actually get there reasonably unmolested... though I'm probably just doing it wrong.
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Jan 24, 2019 19:08
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As far as power goes, the only other option I know of is the one I used last game: Economic Command Stations w/Matter Converters. And that means tanking my metal supply, which given how much I'm going to need for the megaprojects this game - per Sindai's point about golems not being as much as they appear to be, it's a matter of how many craptons I need but I'll still need them. I am curious about the golem thing though, and looking forward to doing the !SCIENCE! mandated. Re: AI War 2 - unfortunately I can't be helpful there as I've not dipped my toe into that pool yet. It is still early access, but I'd be surprised if there really was no transport option in the final version.
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Jan 24, 2019 20:31
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A Plan Finally Emerges I settle on a way to expand further, and the energy situation is far from great but sees some relief. The vampire claws are still out there being troublesome, and Zenith Bombardment ships, what with slightly outranging missile turrets and being immune to snipers, become an annoyance in both attack and defense. Still, progress is now happening even if it's not entirely of the smooth variety. I've also begun investing in the Zenith Power Generator. Unlocks: Mk II Bombers, Mk II Flagship, Zenith Starship, and via a captured Fabricator, Mk V Munitions Boosters Up Next Upgrading the defenses, continuing to beat a path to malkav11 and what will be our first Golem - eventually. Those tasks will probably sideline the work on the power generator for now.
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Jan 24, 2019 20:37
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Thotimx posted:Re: AI War 2 - unfortunately I can't be helpful there as I've not dipped my toe into that pool yet. It is still early access, but I'd be surprised if there really was no transport option in the final version. Ah, sorry. Probably should have prefaced that with "trip report" or something; unfortunately there really isn't a general purpose AI War 2 thread... or for that matter, as far as I could tell, an active AI War 1 thread aside from this LP so er. Well, was kinda related I guess.
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Jan 24, 2019 21:25
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Ah, I'd never seen Tag Teamer so I didn't know what to look for. I bet the first attack on its homeworld is going to be very exciting. 
Sindai fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 01:36
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Sindai posted:Ah, I'd never seen Tag Teamer so I didn't know what to look for. I bet the first attack on its homeworld is going to be very exciting. Will they follow you out of the system? Maybe you can kite them into coming into an adjacent place with a beachhead so you can have turrets on your side vs the Mk V core world fleet.
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Jan 25, 2019 05:15
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Akratic Method posted:Maybe you can kite them into coming into an adjacent place with a beachhead so you can have turrets on your side vs the Mk V core world fleet. I don't think so - they'd just turn into normal threat ships at that point I presume. Also, while Sindai suggested such a move in the last game and it has its merits, beachheading an adjacent system means putting the homeworld on alert - and having it get more reinforcements at a point in the game when they are coming pretty frequently. I tend to favor not putting homeworld or even core worlds on alert if I can avoid it - though admittedly I don't know if that is tenable on this or higher difficulties due to the way their strategic reserve and special forces freak out and how large they will be at that point. Hadn't thought about it, but the point about the initial foray into the Tag Teamer homeworld being 'fun' is definitely very likely ….
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Jan 25, 2019 06:39
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Seizing the Initiative Between deploying the Munitions Boosters, expanding our territory, and upgrading defenses pretty much across the board, there's no question after this episode that the early problems have been put in the rearview mirror. I can now focus on hurtling headlong towards the later problems that are most assuredly awaiting us. Due to a small but important change in our setup, I no longer even fear vampire claws unless they come in very large numbers. malkav11 did prove to be quite a pain to acquire though, and plays a significant role in the story of this run, along with pushing this update to the longer side of things. Unlocks: Heavy Beam Cannons, MK II Turrets (Sniper, Missile, Lightning, Flak, Needler, Laser), Mk III Grav Turrets Up Next We appear to have neutered the AIs immediate threats - next is expanding as quickly and efficiently as possible while investing in our megaproject toys as well. I definitely want a more complete picture of the galaxy for multiple reasons, not the least of which is those astro trains. FYI I did a test with the Broken Regenerator Golem and it does indeed require every last inch of the 15 million metal the tooltip indicates - the 30 million figure was the more fearsome Botnet Golem I believe. That's a little under two hours worth at current production rates, though we will continue to increase those over time of course. Still, activating all the golems will definitely take several hours of dedicated effort.
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Jan 26, 2019 22:08
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Maybe you just want to fully upgrade metal collectors when you play with superweapons and AIP over time. On normal settings they're generally considered a waste for the relatively high knowledge cost but for you getting 3x the golems over time is a big deal.
Sindai fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 23:05
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That is a good idea, but I think for this game I'll just try out a somewhat longer and higher-AIP run. Venus Convention The Zenith Mining Golems show up, and their bark is worse than their bite in the two of our systems they targeted. However they have also descended upon one that doesn't belong to us - and I don't know how many others that we haven't reached yet. The slow scouting with no Advanced Factory yet to give us the Mk IV could come back and bite us since we don't know how many more are out there destroying whatever. First CPA hits and is swatted aside, and the Bombardment ships continue to be an annoyance. It was real nice of the AIs to conveniently descend upon our Venus beachhead when we were ready to deal with them though. Don't often get that lucky. And I eventually discover a better way to deal with the astro trains later in the video - basically keep all the fleet ships away and use starships* * Not shown is something that happened while I was just screwing around and experimenting with stuff. A Widow Train showed up, tractored a bunch of my ships, hauled them out of the system, took a fairly unused path to Europa which has Nuclear Eye and had recently been visited by the Devourer Golem. Some of my ships were destroyed, and I had like one or two over the limit when the timer went off just as the train was about to jump out. But close doesn't count. The nuke went off, +50 AIP for that in itself, +20 AIP for the planet, putting me at almost 260 and making the CPA 400 ships stronger -- yeah, that was not going to be a whole lot of fun. Lesson learned on not screwing around with astro train pathways though. Up Next More gradual expansion and scouting I think. Our defenses are going to be weaker than I want them to be till that power generator is online, and as mentioned I'm more and more concerned about finding the advanced constructor buildings and getting more of a galactic picture as time passes with not-fast-enough progress. The astro trains are quite effective in limiting the picture of how/where the threatfleet is, which is going to become more and more of a problem. I'm not worried about the right now, but I'm thinking more and more that I will need the golems for the endgame. Huge difference between this and the quick acquision of the advanced factory in the previous run. .
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Feb 1, 2019 08:13
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Power, Unlimited POWER! The planet at Yavin isn't there anymore (no word yet on Mon Mothma) due to the Mining Golems, and who knows where else. Starting to turn the corner on scouting, and we take down the AI Co-Processors to relieve some AI pressure. The Zenith Power Generator is up and running, solving all economic issues for the near future - and among our discoveries is another one on an AI world if we need more. And even more Golems are found, along with an Advanced Starship Constructor - but still no factories. Another ability of the science lab - 'spying' on ARS capabilities - is also demonstrated. An interesting combination including our first close look at the Arachnid Anti-Starship Post slows us down a bit in Thule, but it's only temporary. And a major, perhaps final upgrade of our defenses to Mk III. Unlocks: Mk II Tractor Beams, Mk II Heavy Beam Cannons, Mk II Hardened Force Fields, Mk III 'core' Turrets (Sniper/Missile/Needler/Laser/MLRS), Spire Starship, Mk II Human Raid Starship. Don't think I've ever gone above 20k Knowlege before, and then snap your fingers and it's almost all gone again. In a good cause, of course. Up Next I'm finally secure in what we've got guarding our planets now between the improved turrets and Munitions Boosters. We've got the resources to be more focused on attacking and expanding - acquiring and repairing those Golems, and pushing through the remains of the galaxy.
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Feb 2, 2019 22:25
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Now that I look at them bombards are pretty nasty. Between their range and sniper immunity fixed defenses other than fortresses pretty much can't hurt them. Their one saving grace is that they can't hurt force fields at all. I imagine the handful in every schizophrenic wave sit around shooting turrets until the rest of the wave dies and they become threat. I didn't realize it earlier but munition boosters are probably the single best core fabricator find in the game. You got incredibly lucky there. Sindai fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Feb 3, 2019 |
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Feb 3, 2019 02:41
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Sindai posted:I imagine the handful in every schizophrenic wave sit around shooting turrets until the rest of the wave dies and they become threat. Yeah that's what happens most of the time. Sometimes they don't become threat, and then I get to go hunt them down with that small 'extras' group I have hanging around our homeworld. And you're definitely right about the munitions - getting out of the trouble I was in early-game would have been a LOT rougher without them.
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Feb 3, 2019 09:21
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Ambush at Geonosis After a 'special surprise' at Geonosis by the AI, eventually that system falls and later another Golem hideout. Meanwhile some semi-successful threat hunting also happens, and more scouting. We continue to have no shortage of targets, and it looks like I can keep AIP from staying above the second tech-level for a bit longer. Also, the Regenerator Golem is now online! Up Next I need to do some !SCIENCE! on the golem repairs, because it doesn't seem to be consistent between them how much they cost. Either way, continuing to expand while finishing up more of those is definitely on the menu. I expect the next serious resistance to not come until we hit the homeworlds at this point - but there may yet be more pitfalls coming.
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Feb 6, 2019 06:12
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Wouldn't the regenerator golem be useful on pretty much any assault, by staying near the back and just replenishing ships? Why not use it for every system you want to take?
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Feb 6, 2019 08:50
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If nothing else it'll free up metal to get other golems up faster since it regenerates and self-repairs with vampirism.
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Feb 6, 2019 09:08
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Huh. I thought vampirism referred to the ability to resurrect ships, which is sort of the answer to lunnrais' question: I assumed that would be a waste of metal due to needing to repair the golem again. I was wrong. This thing is now definitely OP as far as I'm concerned. I'll spoil the next episode just enough to say that between the Regeneration Golem and the MK V Parasites, my 'secondary fleet', composed only of ships I can't build myself(plus one flagship), is now approaching the size of my primary fleet of those I can directly reproduce. And if plans hold, I have not yet begun to flagrantly abuse the combination. I may well end up capturing another ZPG system for the sole purpose of having enough energy to capture more of them and go even more in that direction.
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Feb 6, 2019 22:36
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And the regenerator is generally considered one of the less powerful golems! It didn't occur to me how well it would pair with a parasite-heavy strategy, though. Sindai fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Feb 7, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 23:37
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All Their Ships Are Belong To Us The Regeneration Golem and Hive Golem are seen in action, helping face down our second CPA among other things. I also deploy an important new ship I've never used before, the Decloaker. Does pretty much what it says, and I need it to deal with cloaked threat ships. It's rather impressive that even with well over 2k threat at one point, they still don't want to attack my systems much with the threatfleet. A most impressive deterrent is in place - except when they really gang up as in Kallipo. Unlocks: Just the 1k for the Decloaker. Up Next We still have no shortage of targets but the claws/infiltrators floating out there undetected was really the last even nagging concern I had about things prior to the endgame. ** By the way, it appears we are getting about a 90% 'discount' on Golems compared to the tooltips - I need to check the Regen golem once I get the next one to confirm whether it's true for them as well. That would work out to a repair price of about 2.25 million metal each for most of these (75% of 3 million, instead of 30 million). I don't know if there are any settings that affect that or if it's just the standard. Weird to me for the golems to have a set price and then not cost that much - but I'll try to continue observing how it goes and this and future runs. Perhaps it's just to give a larger impact for things like reprisal waves if you lose one. Strikes me that having one die in hostile territory would probably be … unpleasant.
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Feb 8, 2019 12:46
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Does the threat-fleet have to consolidate before attacking a planet of yours? Does it have to consolidate before actually posing an ACTUAL threat? Because when you're hunting down the threat, they don't seem to be consolidating that much, and as such, don't seem to be all that threatening.
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Feb 9, 2019 05:04
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The threat behavior is probably the most complicated part of the AI. This is a fairly high level overview: http://wiki.arcengames.com/index.php?title=AI_War:Threat Basically, it's intentional that the threat moves somewhat slowly and gives the player a chance to deal with it piecemeal. Keep in mind that the AI's ship count increases rapidly with difficulty. Starting at around difficulty 8 the total threat will regularly be larger than the player's fleet if you don't cull it constantly, and a late game CPA can suddenly bump it to several times that size. I didn't realize the "no wave warnings" applied to CPAs. That's potentially really nasty if you're not paying attention to the threat count late in the game. I wonder if it applies to exogalactic waves too. I guess we'll find out eventually. Sindai fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 06:20
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I'll just add that the threat will attack wherever it thinks it has an advantage. Having strong defenses makes it seems less threatening - until it masses up into a several-thousand ship ball of fun like Sindai is alluding to. Then it can just overwhelm you with numbers, and it will. If it thinks it needs 1500 ships to have a chance of success though, it won't attack with 500 (or whatever, numbers there just for demonstration). Also, on the CPAs, I do get a message telling me they've formed even without wave warnings. It doesn't give you the 'ships are massing for a cross-planet attack' but it does tell you when it's actually generated. Last one was 525 ships freed from reserve, 525 mK ii ships joined CPA or whatever it says, for just over 1k added. That still gives me a little bit of time to react before it starts smashing things.
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Feb 9, 2019 11:24
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A New Rebellion The long-range firepower of the Cursed and Artillery Golems takes center stage, having seen quite a bit of the other two previously. Those two make one heck of a pairing*. Then our first Human Colony Rebellion happens, and it forces me to go somewhere I already wanted to go soon anyway. All in all, we take three more planets and the Golems appear, for now at least, to be decisively winning the arms race. Unlocks: Stealth Tachyon Emitter, Mk II Munitions Booster, Mk II Zenith/Spire/Leech/Plasma/Heavy Bomber Starships. Up Next I'm leaning towards Themis next to get a second ZPG and end our current energy shortage. I also need to start doing some logistical things to prepare for the endgame, and of course finally grabbing an Advanced Factory is still a thing that's out there as a goal. * I don't think I'll soon tire of one-shotting Guard Posts from across the system. That and the 'demotion' of my best starships to screening duty was quite hilarious to me.
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Feb 9, 2019 22:20
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These Golems ain't loving around. It'd be hard for you to lose with so many of those up now
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Feb 10, 2019 01:15
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