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I always enjoyed the cursed/artillery combo. The artillery golem does so much damage it can actually just straight kill Eyes fairly quickly, although you rarely need to when you can just blap all the guard posts instead. I can't wait to see your reaction to the botnet in action. Sindai fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Feb 10, 2019 |
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Feb 10, 2019 05:58
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Given how powerful these golems are proving... I recall that when setting up the game, you mentioned there were options to balance the use of golems by giving the AI some advantages. What kind of advantages can offset these powerhouses?
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Feb 10, 2019 13:50
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Golems have three settings: easy, medium, and hard. On easy they come with no drawbacks but your score at the end of the game is halved (though nobody cares about score so it doesn't matter.) On medium they take a lot of energy to run and cause extra AIP when you reactivate them. Hard is like easy but the AI periodically launches large exogalactic waves against you regardless of whether or not you've activated any golems. The botnet golem is so powerful it has its own separate setting that works the same way. If you have both on easy your score is quartered, if you have both on hard you get twice as many exogalactic waves. There are other ways to balance things too. There's a hard AI type called Golemite that gets golems of its own, or you can just turn up the difficulty until the AI always outnumbers you several times over like RockyB did in his old LP.
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Feb 10, 2019 19:20
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 March of the Golems Although they do get interrupted by a third, larger CPA, the Golem group marches through three more systems. We have a second ZPG and with the energy it provides an even larger fleet, but with AIP well over 300 now that's somewhat of a two-way street. All Golems I plan on getting are now online including the BotNet, and all of the ships we can build. An Advanced Factory is finally ours, and with it we've almost finishd scouting. The enemy homeworlds have been located, and soon we will be moving to hit those. The end of this struggle approaches. Unlocks: Mk II Force Field Generator, Mk III Bomber, Mk II Sentinel Frigate/Electric Bomber Up Next We can't reach the AI homeworlds of Aedeona and TheOneAndOnlyT from where we are, so a couple more systems at least will need to be captured and some final preparations made elsewhere to prepare for that. Also a question now that we've basically finished with it - what does everyone think of the 'blind scouting'/unexplored planets option? Should I throw it in the ash-heap and never use it again or keep it as part of the rotation of options for future runs?
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Feb 13, 2019 22:09
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At its core, AI war is a game about risk management and choosing how and when to use your limited resources. Unexplored planets just make that take longer, they don't make it harder. I'd ditch it.
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Feb 15, 2019 06:35
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I don't know, not knowing where the chokepoints were at first has given *some* interest in this game. Maybe have it as an option in rotation, but no need for it to be a regular thing.
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Feb 15, 2019 13:28
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Superterminal, Bane of Framerate Two more systems fall to our Golems easily enough ... but then Dagobah is discovered as one of the last systems to be scouted. It houses the controversial Superterminal, which we can use to lower AI Progress ... but what it considers a modest, 'measured response' is truly horrifying and makes my PC whimper. On the list of stuff to do at some point is to show what happens when it really gets mad(negative AIP). Let's just say that I guarantee it would crash the game and winning would no longer be an option even if it didn't. Unlocks: Mk III Engineers Up Next I've got some cleanup to do but it is about time to take on the homeworlds. Let's see if this massive, by human standards at least, fleet I've assembled is enough for the task. We have a bunch more Hacking to use, but with all the Golems/Resistance ships out there not the energy to really build anything with it, and a few warheads are waiting should the worst happen. It's time.
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Feb 16, 2019 21:35
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My heart flipped when you took the cursed golem into an active mass driver, and then again when you started the ST hack without building turrets or repairing the cursed golem ahead of time.  I'm not sure if the regenerator can actually respawn other golems. I guess there's nothing specifically saying it can't as long as the conditions are met but I always assumed it couldn't. Sindai fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Feb 16, 2019 |
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Feb 16, 2019 23:16
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Warheads cause AI progress, don't they? So... warheads vs the superterminal would only be worth it if you used fewer warheads than you gain from the superterminal. And the superterminal just keeps sending more and more ships through. That sounds like it's STILL a balancing act of brinkmanship even if you use warheads optimally!
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Feb 17, 2019 06:31
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Sindai posted:I'm not sure if the regenerator can actually respawn other golems. I guess there's nothing specifically saying it can't as long as the conditions are met but I always assumed it couldn't. It can. I didn't think so either … until I took the wrong route to Bespin and … uh … it did. Another OMD system. Plopped a 1.9k-strong 'level 1' reprisal wave on my head for my trouble, and took the Regen Golem down over 40% in one swoop. I went from oh crap to cool to oh crap again in about 20 seconds. I thought about the fact that I should have used a mobile builder to get the turrets up AHEAD of time after I was done with things, and you're definitely right that a little more care would have been helpful. lunnrais posted:sounds like it's STILL a balancing act of brinkmanship even if you use warheads optimally! Yeah it is. One thing I didn't realize prior to this game is the description says Superterminal response is proportional to the hacking you've done in the game so far - and well, I'd already done a fair amount. That's the main thing I want to do better in the future, minimize hacking prior to getting to it. Which is sort of a catch-22 all on its own, because you need the strength to repel what it does produce … but still something to play around with. The early-game knowledge hacks I like to do etc. will probably not be happening as much now that this is a thing. I also think taking Mr. Botnet in would have been a better idea than I thought, since there were a lot more 'normal' ships - i.e. not zombie bots - produced than I expected. There would have been plenty of targets to turn against the enemy. FYI, though I wasn't around for the earlier iterations, the Superterminal went through a lot of changes over the development cycle of the game. I know at one point it was something that really good players were able to terribly abuse. It's been rebalanced multiple times and has reached a workable state according to most of what I've read. The double-edged nature of it though is very apparent.
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Feb 17, 2019 08:56
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This update, RIGHT HERE, is why I cannot conceive of beating a game with a few expansions on without leaning on golems. You hit a point where after eating through half the galaxy there's SO MUCH coming at you and fleet ships just cannot power through enough while rebuilding fast enough to handle it. It won't be so bad as that Super Terminal going forward, but it it'll be pretty bonkers nontheless.
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Feb 18, 2019 05:42
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CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. Though it'll be a while before I do such a setup, as there are more golem settings and such to explore before then.
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Feb 19, 2019 17:49
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Avenger, We Hardly Knew Ye This time the threatfleet does not wait around, but thankfully hits me somewhere where I am ready for it. On accident mind, but still ready. An interestingly-timed CPA dumps 2.2k more ships into the fray while I'm busy triggering more waves by mismanaging the assault on TheOneAndOnlyT to a degree - but I swear that Core Threatening Eye doesn't know how to count. See: late in the battle where it says 35 ships compared to 27 is too many when it's supposed to wait for 2:1. At any rate, the system goes down, the Avenger appears ... and the Hive Golem Wasps destroy it hilariously quickly. My carefully constructed beachhead in Bononia is now basically worthless. But hey, it was ready if I needed it! Unlocks: Mk III Hardened Shield Generator, Mk III & IV Heavy Beam Cannons. Up Next Hopefully the conclusion to this game as I take aim at the somewhat more well-defended homeworld in Adeona.
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Feb 20, 2019 13:08
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Keep in mind assault transports actually have a pretty strong attack when full. They're super helpful in dealing with eye systems. I considered warning you the artillery golem was mostly useless on homeworlds, but I'm trying not to spoil you on everything and I figured you'd be fine with that many other golems anyway. It was really unlucky not a single armored golem spawned on this map since I think they can actually shoot core guard posts. Hive golem wasps can also hit core posts (but not the command station) so despite the eye it probably would have been much faster to just launch them once the strategic reserve was cleared. Threat is basically no threat at all when you have a botnet golem. The hive golem has incredibly high total DPS with all 500 wasps out, and on top of that they bypassed the Avenger's force field (the shield module has 4m HP so that's two-thirds of its total health). But it wasn't going to be a real threat anyway in a golem game since it's balanced to be killable without them. In fact hive golems are so powerful that the AI never gets them, even in circumstances where it can have other golems. Sindai fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 17:50
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Sindai posted:considered warning you the artillery golem was mostly useless on homeworlds, but I'm trying not to spoil you on everything Thanks - it really was just a simple matter of checking the immunities and I'd noted they couldn't be hit by artillery ammo last game when I wanted to plasma-siege the Electric ones. Unfortunately, I had it in my head that the artillery golem used an energy wave attack - because it looks the same as those do because reasons. - Assault Transports. I am aware of that but never thought of using them in that way. I think I'm always more worried that I'll lose them, won't be able to get my fleet out, causing more problems etc. - Botnet. I like it, but I don't think I like it as much as you do. When I first got it and tried the Auto-Scout thing, it was killed two systems away by a shockingly small force - it wasn't more than three starships and might have only been two. It's really good in the right situation (i.e. I screwed around with taking it up against a Parasite Eye, which it is basically a better, mobile version of) but it needs a proper screen of smaller ships to keep any big guns away from it. I still think it's better than any of the other golems, but right now it doesn't appear to me that it quite lives up to its press. I may try out that hive golem idea on Adeona just for the fun of it. I thought the wasps could only attack ships. I don't think they attacked guard posts when I tried it out earlier in the game, and the golem desc says they attack 'enemy ships' - though it does count guard posts as ships for some purposes.
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Feb 21, 2019 06:54
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Well, I did try it. This isn't a spoiler, since it isn't in the battle video - I had to record it a second time for technical reasons, though the outcome is pretty much the same - but since the idea was brought up, here's what happened when I deployed the Hive Golem on the homeworld: That's a lovely bit of hand-wavium by the AI. Their homeworlds apparently counter Wasps. It's a bit small - the message reads "In response to your wasp swarm on Adeona, the AI has utilized a Rectifying Arthopod-Inhibitor Device'. The Wasps stall, and are destroyed within a few seconds. So apparently somebody thought of that tactic, and decided it was too powerful to be allowed.
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Feb 21, 2019 11:36
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The Last Battle A few AI attacks later, the golem group smashes through enemy resistance and lays waste to Adeona. Victory!! AI War's 'adjusted score' system is unimpressed, ranking winning on 7.3 at Easy/Easy Golems as only slightly more impressive than our difficulty 5 success and quite a bit less so than our 7.0 loss. It's hard to really argue with that. Without them, this would have been a hard and quite possible failed struggle. Several new achievements were also unlocked. Up Next The next challenge is the 'micro-expansion' Children of the Neinzul. I have a special, shorter game in mind for that. Then things will get at least somewhat stranger as three of the final four expansions feature alternate victory conditions that I'll be attempting to explore … and the one that doesn't, has the Champion and all of it's special things to do. I've never seen any of that, so no spoilering of them unless they are in tags. The route we've seen for the first few games here though will get broken up at least somewhat by looking into all of that content. Post-Mortem The Vampire Claws caused some serious problems early, but eventually I figured out a better way via grav turrets and tachyon beam emitters to deal with them and other cloaked threats. The MK V Munitions Boosters were a massive acquisition as has been noted, and once I got the Golems and figured out what they could do, Easy Mode was definitely activated at least to a degree. The Zenith Bombardment ships also made an impression with their ability to out-range turret defenses. In significant numbers, they are a royal PITA that mandates a local rapid-reaction force. Human Colony Rebellions made their appearance, and we learned about the goodies of the Zenith Trader. The Devourer Golem aka Cookie Monster was mostly able to be avoided, but in some significant circumstances it was a pain and/or a helpful force. It's an interesting, if relatively minor, wild-card. SuperTerminal brinksmanship was explored, as well as the AI Co-Processor. And I learned a half-decent if imperfect way to deal with Astro Trains - use starships and keep your fleet ships the heck away from them. Not having a reasonably-placed Advanced Factory really sucks; along with the vampire claws that was probably the biggest issue in this game. And while it wasn't around for long, the Avenger was also finally seen in action. We took a sizable step into the larger world of AI War complexity, but there is so very far and very much to go. Coming soon: Neinzul Knife-fight!, a struggle that will be over more quickly than this one, one way or another …
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Feb 21, 2019 21:35
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I am sad to see that I did not put up as good of a fight as Slaan. 
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Feb 21, 2019 21:41
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Neinzul will be what it is, but I'm really interested to see what's on deck for Spire. I got a few steps into that special branch, and.... well, y'know how I said earlier I would just get plain exhausted by the pace of the game halfway through? 
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Feb 22, 2019 22:59
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:I am sad to see that I did not put up as good of a fight as Slaan He would have gone down very hard against a Golem group such as that. There was really nothing you could do *sadface* Willie Tomg posted:'m really interested to see what's on deck for Spire. I got a few steps into that special branch, and.... well, y'know how I said earlier I would just get plain exhausted by the pace of the game halfway through? Sounds like 'fun'. I'm interested to see the 'alternate endings' myself. Assuming that I survive long enough to reach them!
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Feb 23, 2019 11:32
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 Neinzul Knife-fight Intro The action's going to be quick and fast in this one as we head to the smallest permissible sized galaxy and try out a couple of new options; Cross-Planet Waves and Nuclear Command. Of course the newly available Neinzul minor factions are coming along for the ride as well. Let's just say that after one session we are already definitely into the mid-game. Unlocks: MK I/II Grav Turrets, Mk I Spider Turrets, Tachyon Beam Emitters, Mk II Military Command Stations Up Next Taking over Ceres, more scouting, figuring out what the heck to do with our limited hacking resources. I'm going to have to make the most of what I have in order to mount any type of serious challenge to the AI homeworlds in this setup.
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Feb 23, 2019 21:26
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This is a neat idea, I've never tried a tiny map. Most things that aren't high-cap fleet ships are immune to nuclear explosions, so the description on that setting is actually really overselling it. The AI's shield bearers, for example. Oddly AI guardians aren't despite being roughly equivalent to starships in most respects. Unfortunately the hybrid hive settings you went with probably aren't what you really want, though it's not your fault because the descriptions are very unclear. The base setting controls how many hive spawners appear in the galaxy. 4 is considered average (if you do it on both AIs) and will probably form a swarm roughly even with the special forces/threat fleet's strength. The advanced setting controls whether the hybrids get access to some special plots, like constructing super hybrids and some other things mostly related to the Dyson Sphere. The number on it just unlocks nastier stuff the higher it goes. Since this doesn't do anything if hybrids aren't enabled in the first place, turning it on with hives disabled invisibly turns on hives at 1/10, so almost none of them will spawn. So what you ended up with was half of an average hybrid swarm with no access to advanced stuff, and a handful of hives with access to advanced stuff they definitely won't have time to do before you conquer the map. To really see what the hybrids can do I recommend turning on (for both AIs) hives 4/10, advanced 10/10, and dyson 10/10 in a future game. Don't bother in the Light of the Spire game though. The special parts of that campaign kind of completely overpower everything else and you'll barely notice the hybrids since they're balanced for a normal game. Sindai fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Feb 23, 2019 |
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Feb 23, 2019 23:30
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Sindai posted:Don't bother in the Light of the Spire game though. The special parts of that campaign kind of completely overpower everything else and you'll barely notice the hybrids since they're balanced for a normal game. Thanks for all the good info. I'll keep the hybrid suggestion in mind. I had no idea they were in any way related to the Dyson stuff. I'm curious what you think about Golem settings for the Light of the Spire? I was going to go on Hard/Hard for that, which I need to try out to show it eventually anyway - but I could just turn them off and save that for another game. I'm not at all averse to getting my butt handed to me, but I'm mostly just asking if you think that sort of chaos is better saved for Ancient Shadows and the Champion campaign - which as I understand it shouldn't conflict too much. I think I'm getting to the point now where I could really use the advice - without spoilering, which I appreciate everyone doing a fantastic job of so far - of yourself and other vets on how best to combine some of these things. I'm not trying to ignore the current Neinzul game either - it's just going to be quick one way or the other as mentioned so I figure I'd ask now.
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Feb 24, 2019 09:52
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Hard golems is probably fine. They'll still make a difference until the late game. None of the other special victory conditions completely change the late game the way Fallen Spire does. They also tend to be harder than just attacking the home worlds. If you want to keep turning the difficulty up every game you're going to need all the help you can get so feel free to keep whatever beneficial stuff you want turned on.
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Feb 24, 2019 17:08
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K - I'll hit an adjustment point at some stage, probably on Spire game or shortly thereafter, but that gives me a decent idea how to proceed. Also, next episode is delayed till Thursday due to the lovely fun of nature interfering with a 'cyclone bomb' - aka good healthy windstorm - that knocked out power for a bit over a day and threw off my groove.
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Feb 26, 2019 08:47
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Two for the Price of … Uh, Two This session didn't exactly go as planned. I misunderstood a couple of mechanics that make my life more difficult than it needs to be, but ultimately we are up to half the galaxy now. All the easy systems are now within our control - everything left is Mk IV or worse. The newly-available Neinzul Enclave Starship is pretty cool, and that makes an appearance - ours and some of the ones belonging to minor factions. Unlocks: Mk II Neinzul Enclave Starships, Mk II Engineer Drones, Mk I Spire Starship, Mk I Zenith Starship, Mk II Flagship/Plasma Siege/Bomber Starships Up Next Approaching the endgame and not having enough energy to do basically anything that I'd like to do, I've got some tough choices in terms of fleet composition and such.
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Feb 28, 2019 21:32
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So, negative hack score means the AI response is an order of magnitude higher. Is this only the AI response to the hack, or does having a negative hack score also increase any other responses/attacks/waves/threat/etc?
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Mar 2, 2019 08:05
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Nope, that's it - it's just not at all remotely safe to do any more hacking at this stage.
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Mar 2, 2019 18:20
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Release the Blasted Weapons! I decide that hacking is a moot point due to the energy situation and the fact that we have a lot more options already than we can build, and so the choice is made to go into Dagobah. Which is easier said than done as it turns out. A CPA helps turn it into another slog, and I eventually I go the warhead route to end it. Only core worlds and homeworlds remain, and all have now been scouted. On the other hand, all Core guard posts are immune to nukes … so that will be less useful from here on out. Up Next Time to decide what I want to do with the end-game fleets, knowledge distribution, etc. and that's a tough call. There's nothing else for it but to try and brute-force my way through and bring this cage match to its violent conclusion.
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Mar 2, 2019 22:20
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Core Resistance I made a strategic choice of necessity at the start of this; if I'm going to win this game, it's going to be with warheads. There's simply no other way to bludgeon my way through the Core worlds, to say nothing of the AI homeworlds. And unfortunately the core worlds are crap when it comes to metal, with 1 and 3 harvesting locations. I set off several of the things here, and eventually achieve part of my goal, which was to take down both core systems. One down, and one partially dealt with. Unlocks: Mk III & IV Zenith Starships Up Next Another major strategic shift that reveals I didn't really know what I was doing at all with early-game investments. But it's necessary to the point of being my only chance. 'Extreme brinksmanship' is not, IMO, an excessive term when it comes to how this endgame will be fought. At the moment, giving myself one chance in three would be generous I think.
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Mar 6, 2019 03:58
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Let's Play AI War: Fleet Command, or How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Bomb
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Mar 6, 2019 21:08
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Enough warheads solve any problem except for your AIP getting too high from using warheads and spending all your metal on building warheads.
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Mar 6, 2019 21:18
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Most problems for sure - but I'm not certain it'll solve dealing with the combo of Core Warhead Interceptor halfway across the system, planetary tachyon coverage, and almost everything being immune to nukes. So I'll have to do more than blow up warheads on the homeworlds.
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Mar 6, 2019 22:29
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I sort of fell away from this thread partway through the Vanilla Medium Difficulty run, but this Neinzul Knife Fight run has been riveting. I'll have to backfill some of the other videos as I go along to get up to speed with the mechanics you've already explained.
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Mar 8, 2019 05:04
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Welcome back! Glad you've found this particular run interesting - from all reports the next one will be worth paying attention to as well. The Maginot Line, in SPAAAACE Some intense fighting breaks out at both core worlds. The AI is stockpiling defenses for a last stand, while I've fortified that pair of chokepoints as best I can - and there was amble evidence of it not being enough in this session. In any case, final preparations are underway for the first homeworld assault. I've got a strong economy behind me for the first time, but I'm not sure if it'll be enough. Unlocks: Heavy Beam Cannons, Mk III Grav Turrets Up Next I find out what I'm made of as the attack on Haumea, the 'easy homeworld', commences. Almost nothing in this game has gone according to plan, and I need that streak to cease.
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Mar 8, 2019 12:38
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It's Go Time If you like lots of ships blowing up at once, you'll like this update. The use of warheads continues, and after an uncertain start Haumea, the first AI homeworld, falls. It is not without danger though, and somehow I managed to trigger Ariel despite never attacking the system, at least not intentionally. Between that and AIP now being north of 300 and going nowhere but up, along with at least theoretically a tougher system to crack in the last battle, the outcome is still very much in doubt. I'm feeling more positive about it than before. We also get a look at the Warbird Starship and Experimental Engineer Drone. Up Next It's us or Ariel, and the clock is already ticking on a second exo-wave. Carnage is assured.
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Mar 11, 2019 05:32
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I didn't notice - did you use the teleporting drones? Were they useful?
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Mar 11, 2019 07:22
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I really want to know what happened during that timeskip where the exowave changed from one homeworld to other. Did you save and reload? It looked like a genuine bug. Remember that almost everything but certain turret types gets -75% damage inside static forcefields. You left the cursed golem under an FF on defense and that really hurt your damage output. You usually don't need armored warheads unless the target fleet has a few super ships you specifically want dead or you really need the toughness to make it into blast range. Since transports get treated as separate ships by the lightning warhead damage cap they're good enough for most cases.
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Mar 11, 2019 16:22
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Sounds like on the final homeworld assault, there's no reason not to use ALL the warheads. Just slam warheads at the AI over and over again. I don't see a downside at this point... there's not a lot that AI progress can do to you anymore.
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Mar 12, 2019 09:44
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 23:30 |
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Neophyte posted:did you use the teleporting drones? Were they useful? Yeah, used them on Haumea to get my fleet back to full health quickly. They are somewhat faster at repairing/building that Mk III drones, but the biggest difference is that with teleporting and not having the 4x damage vulnerability that the other types of engineers have on enemy planets they are much better at operating in hostile territory. Sindai posted:You left the cursed golem under an FF on defense and that really hurt your damage output. Thanks for the warhead advice. I forget how far away the golems can shoot sometimes, esp. that one, and wanted to keep it out of the line of fire. lunnrais posted:here's no reason not to use ALL the warheads. Just slam warheads at the AI over and over again. I don't see a downside at this point... there's not a lot that AI progress can do to you anymore. Definitely agree with this, but there are two complicating factors: ** Core Warhead Interceptor negating them. ** Warheads are blind, so they need other ships to spot for them even after taking care of that first problem. We're starting to see just how much I miss the MK IV Scout that we don't have this time around. It's the only thing that can safely chill on a homeworld.
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Mar 13, 2019 07:36
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