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Surprised to see there hasn't been a thread for this already - I'm actually not sure when Season 2 came out, but I just finished it tonight and was hoping to find some good discussion of it like we had going last season. Not that there's a whole lot to discuss. America is still a disgusting shithole with a judicial system to match. No hope left for Brendan besides a pardon, a long shot under any administration but particularly not this one. Very little hope for Steven. It's infuriating, particularly Brendan's case. I don't know how any of the officers or judges involved in Brendan's case sleep at night. I found this season a bit more aimless than the first, though I think that's a bit inevitable. S1 was filmed (and released) when there was hope for these two men getting any justice whatsoever. This season just documented that fire being steadily dampened over the years. I'll edit this post into a better OP once I'm at a computer but... right now I just needed a place to let out a nice long "gently caress this country."
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Nov 15, 2018 14:58
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I came away from the first season pretty convinced that Steven was guilty, anything in Season 2 that might change my mind? Brendan was completely railroaded though, that much was obvious.
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Nov 15, 2018 15:05
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Basebf555 posted:I came away from the first season pretty convinced that Steven was guilty, anything in Season 2 that might change my mind? A fair bit, honestly, though if you came out of S1 thinking Steven was guilty I feel like we watched different shows. Personally, I came out of S1 thinking Bobby did it and S2 only confirmed it, but that's a question we'll never know the answer to unless someone breaks down and confesses - unlikely seeing as there's no statute of limitations on murder. What we do know is the state did not prove Steven did it to any reasonable standard.
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Nov 15, 2018 15:09
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TXT BOOTY7 2 47474 posted:A fair bit, honestly, though if you came out of S1 thinking Steven was guilty I feel like we watched different shows. Oh yea I certainly agree that Steven could never have been convicted under any sort of just system. I'd have voted to acquit had I been on the jury, that's a totally different standard than just forming an opinion on my couch after watching a t.v. show. But for me Steven was by far the likeliest candidate, and I'm very very convinced that someone on the property killed her. So while your theory is of course a possibility, when I weighed the two possibilities Steven seemed much much more likely than the other family members, just based on his behavior before and after her disappearance. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Nov 15, 2018 |
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Nov 15, 2018 15:34
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I very much enjoyed Season Two. I left season one feeling unsure whether Steven was guilty or innocent but after season two I really believe he had nothing to do with it. Zellner is an incredibly engaging attorney and they most interesting aspect of S2, for me, was literally watching her go through building her defense. To those who haven't seen it, this isn't some lady talking you through what she's doing - you're actually watching these tests occur, seeing what these experts are doing and how they feel and building the case in favor of Avery's innocence with Zellner. It's a wild ride and well worth it. Also, Kratz is a loving piece of poo poo and I hope he burns in hell.
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Nov 15, 2018 15:47
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Wasn't a huge fan of S2. S1 had its moments but it kind of felt like a poor mans 'The Jinx'. Which i admit is a bit unfair, because 'The Jinx' sets a really high bar. S2 came off as very self indulgent early on, from both the filmmakers and the attorneys. Too much of the season alternated between what felt like a documentary 'faces of meth' feature and some sort of odd CSI show. I struggle to find Steven Avery's case all that compelling, i was far more interested in the mechanics of appeal and the case of Brendan and while S2 was focusing on that side if things i thought it was at its best. Dassey's case is the far clearer miscarriage of justice in my opinion, its a very affecting story. It's hard to fault the filmmakers too much, i assume there was an expectation by them that more would have happened with both cases over the last three years. gently caress Kratz tho, holy poo poo what a thunderous oval office that man is.
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Nov 16, 2018 10:20
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That season felt like being incarcerated myself. Big bowl of nothing happens for 10 hours. Except you get blueballs when Dassey is about to be let out and eventually doesnt because...? He could sue the state?And that happens two times. I'm not sure if that was the intent of the filmmakers, to make a season so frustratingly slow and meandering, giving you dashes of hope and eventually feeling like being hopeful is just as good a way to waste time until the end. Luckily for us its the end of the show, not that of a life sentence. I believe these guys have been falsely accused and will never get out on account of how much the justice system owes them and how little they are considered by it. In a way the first season could be credited with putting them in the spotlight. This second season makes their redemption (by way of being pardonned or whatever) only more unlikely, because of how dramatic it would be and how public opinion would be split on it. In 2018, in the face of some public outrage, we prefer the status quo. 
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Nov 16, 2018 14:20
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Basebf555 posted:I came away from the first season pretty convinced that Steven was guilty, anything in Season 2 that might change my mind? Felt the same way after S1, still feel the same way after S2.
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Nov 19, 2018 01:39
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The snakey lawyers defy belief,if you saw them on a tv show or movie you'd be like "man these loving guys are hamming it up this is ridiculous". but it's real,fuuuck.
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Nov 20, 2018 00:54
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I think it's interesting that everyone online who thinks Steven did it can't put forward a clear timeline of what exactly he did and how that matches the evidence and timeline.
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Nov 20, 2018 03:41
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Alastor_the_Stylish posted:I think it's interesting that everyone online who thinks Steven did it can't put forward a clear timeline of what exactly he did and how that matches the evidence and timeline. agreed,and now it comes to light that a person who was possibly right in the thick of it had a computer full of hosed up poo poo but it was deemed not important??
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Nov 20, 2018 18:51
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Alastor_the_Stylish posted:I think it's interesting that everyone online who thinks Steven did it can't put forward a clear timeline of what exactly he did and how that matches the evidence and timeline. The reason that can't be done is because police tampered with evidence and the various officials involved are/were corrupt as hell. So therefore Steven should never have been convicted, but that doesn't stop me from making a judgement of my own based on the facts that are available. But that kind of guesswork and conjecture has no place in a jury, which is I think where some people don't get the distinction.
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Nov 20, 2018 19:14
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So glad you made a thread for this. I actually really liked this season and if I’m ever arrested for something someone needs to get me Kathleen Zellner as my attorney stat. By the end of season 2 I completely bought her story of Bobby doing it. It all makes so much sense. But I know it’s still a tv show and they are going to do what it takes to frame it that way. Regardless, I still don’t believe Steven is guilty. Brendens case just makes me livid. How anyone can watch those interrogation tapes and now see how he was coerced is beyond me. I really liked his lady lawyer. You can tell how passionate she is and I hope time doesn’t dull her belief in her work. I feel like if someone just interrogated Bobby with a little pressure, he’d break. He’s not exactly a genius. I feel bad for his mom though. She’d get one son out only to put another one in. Ma and Pa Avery will never not be entertaining to me. How they can have entire conversations consisting of nothing but “yeah?” In different tones can only be accomplished through 50 years of marriage.
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Nov 21, 2018 03:50
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I really think debating the guilt of Steven Avery or anyone else is entirely missing the point of this show.
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Nov 21, 2018 04:05
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Lurdiak posted:I really think debating the guilt of Steven Avery or anyone else is entirely missing the point of this show. A lot of people have trouble with cases that boil down to "I really think that guy did it, but he shouldn't be convicted because the justice system doesn't work on hunches" To say nothing of people who legit believe jurors should ignore the burden of proof and vote Guilty anyway because it's "the right thing"
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Nov 21, 2018 04:20
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Really cool seeing the police not make any serious note of a computer full of horrible images including child porn(?) because they desperately wanted to get Avery back in jail. The ingredient missing from the documentary is a focus on class and the justice system, but either the documentaries can't or wont play that angle when it's pretty clear why the Averys were targeted.
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Nov 21, 2018 05:55
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Lurdiak posted:I really think debating the guilt of Steven Avery or anyone else is entirely missing the point of this show. Well this being season 2, I felt like I knew everything I needed to know about Brendan's case from Season 1. He was railroaded, and he'll probably spend his life in prison for something he didn't do. End of story. Steven's case was much murkier and so it's possible Season 2 clears up some of those lingering questions I had. But yea obviously the question of whether or not they should've been convicted was emphatically answered already in Season 1.
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Nov 21, 2018 15:05
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Dreylad posted:Really cool seeing the police not make any serious note of a computer full of horrible images including child porn(?) because they desperately wanted to get Avery back in jail. At one point I commented to my wife about i wondered if the halbechs were well off or had any power. They kept getting paraded and mentions by the states. I'm also curious how someone got the written calendar. I will say, while zellner was great and the appeals stuff was awesome i had to fast forward through the Avery family parts. Tell me more about Jinx...
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Nov 24, 2018 09:16
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Optimus_Rhyme posted:Tell me more about Jinx... You're better off if you watch it without knowing anything about it.
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Nov 24, 2018 20:59
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nooneofconsequence posted:You're better off if you watch it without knowing anything about it. I would also recommend doing this for Long Shot if you haven't seen it.
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Nov 24, 2018 21:06
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So glad Schimel and Walker lost their elections. Probably too late for Brendan but at least the possibility of a pardon exists unlike under that scumbag Walker.
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Nov 25, 2018 07:28
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KilGrey posted:
Because people (like the one appeal judge) thinks that you have to literally threaten someone to coerce them into confessing to a crime. In Norway the police actually changed their interrogation techniques because they realized how flawed the methods that the cops in Brendan's case are: https://translate.google.com/transl...3%2F&edit-text=
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Nov 25, 2018 14:15
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TXT BOOTY7 2 47474 posted:America is still a disgusting shithole with a judicial system to match "gently caress this country." Tell us how you really feel. There people outside the showrunners who think Avery didnt do it? Lol Alastor_the_Stylish posted:I think it's interesting that everyone online who thinks Steven did it can't put forward a clear timeline of what exactly he did and how that matches the evidence and timeline. Im curious why the defense cant be bothered to name another suspect. Wee this is fun.
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Nov 25, 2018 20:52
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Despera posted:Im curious why the defense cant be bothered to name another suspect. Wee this is fun. SO. MUCH. FUN. quote:Yet, as the defense attorney Jerry Buting lamented in the documentary, the judge used Wisconsin’s so-called Denny rule (State v. Denny, 120 Wis. 2d 614 (Ct. App. 1984)) to prevent the defense from arguing that a specific third party, other than Avery and his codefendant, had killed Halbach. Sure, the defense team was free to contend that Avery wasn’t responsible for the crime, but they were prevented from telling the jury who they thought had committed it. From: https://wislawjournal.com/2016/06/06/critics-corner-convicting-avery-and-overturning-denny/
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Nov 25, 2018 21:14
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Despera posted:Tell us how you really feel. His new lawyer named other suspects. Didn't you watch the new season?
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Nov 25, 2018 21:19
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nooneofconsequence posted:His new lawyer named other suspects. Didn't you watch the new season? First season was so one sided i checked the reviews for the second.
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Nov 26, 2018 04:48
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Honestly what kind of dumb motherfucker moves back to the jurisdiction of the people who framed them and then get caught with a dead girl who they had the creepy hots for on their property?
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Nov 26, 2018 04:56
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Season 2 didn't do much to shake my position of "it's highly probable Steven Avery did it, but good lord there's so much reasonable doubt that I would never convict him if I was on the jury" That one dude's 'brain fingerprinting' seems like an incredible breakthrough in forensic science (if it actually works), but strikes me as at least a few decades from being accepted in a court (...if it actually works and isn't just quackery). The Brendan Dassey confession tape is so clearly contaminated that it should have been thrown out day one. I couldn't help myself, I looked up Ken Kratz on twitter - surprise surprise, he and his wife are big time own-the-libs chuds. gently caress that moist-lipped shithead. Matinee fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Nov 27, 2018 |
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Nov 27, 2018 01:22
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I watched S1 and like everyone, thought Steven was framed. Then I read more about it online, and read transcripts and trial exhibits and can't see how he's anything but guilty. The entirety of evidence against Bobby is just "he's not Steven," and picturing him breaking into Steven's trailer with a pipette to steal blood from a sink for planting was absolutely ludicrous. I've read parts of this new lawyer's filings. They're incredibly disingenuous and I don't think she has a hope of getting Steven out. I waver on Brendan's involvement, but I feel like he was there for a lot of it. Steven has a history of abusing women and younger relatives and I think he threatened Brendan into a lot it. (His younger brother Earl claims that when he was 15, Steven would call him from prison and order to him have sex with his wife, Lori. Then he'd use this as blackmail in his letters to Lori.) Brendan is hosed now, but he should have taken a plea deal instead of having his family try to get him acquitted.
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Nov 27, 2018 01:50
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Despera posted:Tell us how you really feel. What even is this? Are you being smug about sure you are that Avery did it? I think everyone here thinks he's the most likely suspect, but that's basically irrelevant. The point is that the prosecution didn't make their case.
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Nov 27, 2018 06:36
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Optimus_Rhyme posted:At one point I commented to my wife about i wondered if the halbechs were well off or had any power. They kept getting paraded and mentions by the states. This is what bothered me most. If I lost a close relative to murder, a false conviction would give me no sense of peace at all, yet their sorrow somehow justifies maintaining a conviction (two of them!) beyond the supposed reach and rule of law. It is more sickening to me that they use Theresa in this way than the facts of the miscarriages of American justice that happen daily. Which brings another thought: presuming both men are innocent, is this level of publicity and awareness worth the loss of their free lives? I'm torn on that one.
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Nov 27, 2018 06:40
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MorgaineDax posted:I watched S1 and like everyone, thought Steven was framed. Then I read more about it online, and read transcripts and trial exhibits and can't see how he's anything but guilty. The entirety of evidence against Bobby is just "he's not Steven," He also had tons of child porn and pics of decapitated women on his computer.
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Nov 27, 2018 13:11
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Yeah, he didn't have tons, which is where I really dislike Zellner. 1) She hasn't proved the kiddie porn searches belonged to Bobby and not to of the other boys in the house. 2) Nobody's said if there was actual child porn found, or just the searches. None of them seem smart enough to figure out how to find the real stuff. 3) You can read all the searches on the Dassey computer she's using in her case. The gore consists of about 3 or 4 sets of searches over the span of an entire year where someone is searching for for either diseased/deceased women or drawned/drowned women or pussy. There's a good argument that it's supposed to "drawn" here because then they go on to search for cartoon porn after it. And all the images I've seen in the filings are cached Google search thumbnails. So if she's claiming there's tons of gore and an obsession with death, there's no evidence of that in her filings. There are however a ton of regular porn searches like "mijits" "boobs" "granny sex" "Paris Hilton", but she lumps everything into "thousands" of violent murder porn kid rape searches.
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Nov 27, 2018 15:35
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MorgaineDax posted:Yeah, he didn't have tons, which is where I really dislike Zellner. So you're saying the guy with that poo poo on his computer whoever that may be should just be ignored because.....reasons?
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Nov 27, 2018 15:47
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Searches that aren't conclusively linked to him, maybe 4 violent searches, and searches for kiddie porn that probably didn't come back with any results? What's to link him to a murder? They interviewed him, took his blood, fingerprinted him, took photos of his entire body to check for signs of a fight. They did investigate him. There's nothing else there. It doesn't get Steven's blood out of the RAV and it doesn't get the bones out of his fire pit.
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Nov 27, 2018 16:07
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Brazilianpeanutwar posted:So you're saying the guy with that poo poo on his computer whoever that may be should just be ignored because.....reasons? Like the previous poster said, they didn't ignore him at all. They did all the basic stuff and nothing came of it. Now, of course if you want to say that those doing the investigating can't be trusted, well I'm with you there. But you can't say they flat-out ignored another suspect, at least on the surface they did look into the guy and got no results out of it. Meanwhile Steven has like three or four extremely damning pieces of evidence on the record against him(again, if you think the evidence was planted, that's another can of worms).
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Nov 27, 2018 17:07
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Alastor_the_Stylish posted:I think it's interesting that everyone online who thinks Steven did it can't put forward a clear timeline of what exactly he did and how that matches the evidence and timeline. http://stevenaverycase.com/timeline-of-halbach-case/#sthash.NmDOvGGg.dpbs There's tons out there but I'll link this one because it has court transcripts. It would blow my mind if anyone read the complete transcripts and came away thinking Stephen didn't do it. I know this sounds like a huge, "LOOK IT UP FOR YOURSELF" cop out but I don't know how else to convince anyone. He's a sick gently caress and I was thinking the doc would be more about how being falsely imprisoned the first time "made him" a murderer but they didn't go that route.
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Nov 27, 2018 20:56
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The most damning thing for me about Steven's behavior is the *67 thing. He calls Theresa twice when she was late, using *67, but then once she was already dead(or at least her phone had been powered off/destroyed), he calls her again and leaves a message without using *67. Seems like what happened is that he knew what he was going to do, and when she was late he got antsy and called her but didn't want it to show on her phone records so he used *67. Then when he had already abducted/killed her he decided it would be a good idea to leave a message on her phone implying that she'd been there and left without incident, so he calls without using *67. Why use *67 the first two calls and then not the third if he wasn't trying to give a false impression of what happened when Theresa was on his property? What's the motivation there?
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Nov 27, 2018 22:05
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Alastor_the_Stylish posted:I think it's interesting that everyone online who thinks Steven did it can't put forward a clear timeline of what exactly he did and how that matches the evidence and timeline. As opposed to the other theory which is Bobby gets all hopped up on midget murder porn, bolts out of his house when he sees Teresa leave the yard, chases her down in his car, and convinces her to go to a sketchy dead end to get raped and murdered. Also Scott, his mom's new boyfriend, shows up at some point and joins in. Then they burn her body in the quarry, pick up every bone, and then dump it in Steven's bonfire while his back is turned. They burn her phone, camera, and palm pilot in Barb's burn barrel on the salvage yard. Then I guess Scott takes the body again to his workplace and burns it in an aluminum smelter. Ryan, Teresa's ex-boyfriend, finds the RAV at some point and decides, "wow, my ex was surely murdered in here. I need to use this RAV to frame a stranger for the murder of my friend." So I guess he calls up crooked cop Colburn to hand him a day planner and key out of the car? And then Colburn just calls it into Dispatch to make himself look real dumb. I guess then they sneak it in the salvage yard somehow. Except the RAV battery dies and instead of jumping it, the crooked cop goes back to police HQ, gets a battery out of a Crown Vic, and switches the battery out like an idiot. Ryan then deletes a bunch of Teresa's voice messages that would in no way be incriminating. Just because. At some point Zellner claims he's sneaks on the salvage yard search parties under a fake name. Also just because. Meanwhile, Bobby is sitting at home wondering how to get away with this murder and decides to ninja into Steven's house, and with the most amazing luck, sucks up a bunch of wet blood in a pipette he must be carrying around at all times for an occasion such as this. Then he plants the blood in the RAV, making sure to leave the key and day planning page for Ryan to find later. Zellner also changes her theory multiple times in her filings and in one motion claims Ryan is actually the murderer and the one who both plants the RAV and steals the blood all on the same night. But who cares. As long as we're blaming anybody but Steven! Then I dunno, Colburn and Lenk plant the key and put sweat everywhere, and bingo, we've made a murderer. That is literally what all of Zellner's court filings and tweets have said. All you have to do is read the filings up on http://www.stevenaverycase.org/ to realize she's throwing whatever she can at the wall, hoping something sticks even when it makes absolutely no sense. RaspberrySea fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Nov 28, 2018 |
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Nov 27, 2018 23:15
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kittenmittons posted:I would also recommend doing this for Long Shot if you haven't seen it. Thanks for recommending this. It was amazing. Such luck on where they were shooting Curb that day. My heart jumped when he walked onto the screen. Then the PA they were interviewing getting teary. You can tell he’s just thinking of the enormity of what happened on what was just a regular seeming day to him at the time. It was also heartbreaking watching him watch his daughter testify. Any other recommendations from you guys? My boyfriend and I have watched: Paradise Lost (all three) Staircase 🦉 Jinx Long Shot The Crazy Pizza Lady Bomber (forget what it’s called but if you’ve seen it, you know) Witness ...my Netflix and Prime searches probably look really suspect. KilGrey fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Dec 10, 2018 |
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Dec 10, 2018 23:10
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