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maltesh
May 20, 2004

TG: brought my phone and i also took my awesome katana with me in case things get too hot to handle
TG: and they always do


Voyager I posted:


- Shadow Weaver's act of redemption seemed a little forced? I know it's stortytelling tradition to have the most reprehensible antagonist commit a heroic sacrifice both to a) prove they really meant it and b) not have to deal with the consequences of what an rear end in a top hat they were previously, but Weaver hadn't really shown any signs of recrimination beforehand.


I don't think Shadow Weaver was committing an act of redemption. She's doing something that looks like an act of redemption so that she doesn't have to deal with the consequences of what she's done in the past, or live in a world where nobody in power has any further use for her as she is. To her, the writing on the wall is "Change or Die", and she picked "Die." and especially "Die in a way that makes Catra and Adora doubt what they thought about her."

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T-man
Aug 22, 2010
Probation
Can't post for 29 days!


I'm not sure how people missed the obvious catadora setups but I'm also very gay and have honed my shipping skills like a fine blade of Hanzo steel

Voyager I
Jun 29, 2012

This is how your posting feels.


T-man posted:

I'm not sure how people missed the obvious catadora setups but I'm also very gay and have honed my shipping skills like a fine blade of Hanzo steel

Apparently CIS men really are that dumb.

FWIW it was always intensely obvious that there was nothing and nobody in the world they cared about more than each other even after everything that had happened between them, I just didn't register that their relationship was anything more than platonic (and also didn't feel that it necessarily had to be romantic to be that powerful).

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



It's easy to read Catra and Adora as sisters, having grown up together and been raised by the same parent figure and even dealing with abusive family dynamics. While I like the way their relationship went, something more familial would make just as much sense.


I just finished watching the series myself last night, and the only problem I had with the ending was also one I had with previous season ends - there was basically no denouement. Each character got 3-10 seconds to say "this is how they are now" and a slightly longer scene for the main ones but that's it. It could really have benefited from some form of epilogue just to pay off how finally ending all the wars changes the setting and characters.

Nephthys
Mar 27, 2010


I was kind of obvious they were being teased at about the point Catra deep-dipped her at the dance and Adora stuck her knee between Catra's legs.

Theres a bunch of shots in that episode where it would look like they're dating in another context. Or just about to kiss.

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



It definitely seemed like it was being foreshadowed in s1, but then their romantic tension is pretty de-emphasised until s5. But it sounds like that's because there was significant pushback against the showrunners' desire to tell this story, and they had to fight for everything they got.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Android Blues posted:

It definitely seemed like it was being foreshadowed in s1, but then their romantic tension is pretty de-emphasised until s5.

As an Actual Gay, this is my read too. There was questionable flirting sorta kinda, like you could read it either way. But then it felt like they deliberately torpedoed it until S5 when it resurfaced as much clearer feelings.

Watermelon Daiquiri
Jul 10, 2010




Honestly I just saw that as Catra torpedoing -herself- due to adora's perceived abandonment and rejection. It takes a while to get through those kind of feelings and in the meantime reminders can hurt like gently caress so all you want is to make it go away.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I posted a 7 point defense of corporate wage theft because my brain is full of worms.

Tenebrais posted:

It's easy to read Catra and Adora as sisters, having grown up together and been raised by the same parent figure and even dealing with abusive family dynamics. While I like the way their relationship went, something more familial would make just as much sense.

Even in S1 it's obvious it's way more then just family from the sheer level of emotion Catra puts out specifically about Adora leaving her and getting other friends. The level of possessiveness alone is enough to go "wait, this isn't normal" no matter what you read off it.

It's like a reverse Superntural, it's very easy to figure out Sam and Dean are each other's only family and they don't have non-work friends, but they're 100% not gay for each other despite what the fan-base obsesses over.


Watermelon Daiquiri posted:

Honestly I just saw that as Catra torpedoing -herself- due to adora's perceived abandonment and rejection. It takes a while to get through those kind of feelings and in the meantime reminders can hurt like gently caress so all you want is to make it go away.

Everything about Adora from S1-S4 was Catra always acting irrationally as soon as Adora became a factor and borderline obsessed with showing her up or proving she doesn't need her. The constant attempt to go "look how great I'm doing now" feels like something you see 99% of the time when it comes to a romantic love relationship and not a broken platonic one. The kind of self destruction is linked to a lot deeper issues then "my sister has new friends"

Madurai
Jun 26, 2012



I had kind of assumed they'd had a relationship, but that it was effectively finished after Catra chose to destroy reality out of spite. I admit I was surprised to see it come back.

T-man
Aug 22, 2010
Probation
Can't post for 29 days!


Madurai posted:

I had kind of assumed they'd had a relationship, but that it was effectively finished after Catra chose to destroy reality out of spite. I admit I was surprised to see it come back.

The Ultimate Tsundre Move

Ironslave
Aug 8, 2006

Corpse runner


Madurai posted:

I had kind of assumed they'd had a relationship, but that it was effectively finished after Catra chose to destroy reality out of spite. I admit I was surprised to see it come back.

This was my feel of it. The first three seasons spent a lot of time emphasizing just how thoroughly Catra had burned that bridge with her need to show up and abuse Adora at every turn, and then how much she'd burnt all the other ones in her life after it.

Voyager I
Jun 29, 2012

This is how your posting feels.


Yeah I was reading their relationship as something like Nebula and Gamora.

EDIT: I definitely noticed the intensity of Catra's jealousy and abandonment issues, but I think I just figured they were emphasizing her emotions to make them more readable to kids.

Voyager I fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jun 17, 2020

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.


T-man posted:

The Ultimate Tsundre Move

I........it's not like I want to kiss so you so can save the world!!

Otherkinsey Scale
Jul 17, 2012

Just a little bit of sunshine!


Voyager I posted:

I don't think I loved Bow and Glimmer getting together. They kinda had chemistry, but I liked the show letting a boy and a girl be best friends without having to be romantic partners.

Earlier in this thread someone commented that Bow and Glimmer get the treatment queer couples always get, where their relationship is barely focused on, could be edited out without changing anything, there's no big kiss, and you kind of have to squint to see it. And I love it for that reason alone.

That said, having rewatched this season I actually enjoy that relationship more than I expected. Bow and Glimmer's arc is very much backgrounded, but when you know that's where they're going, you can pick up on it more. After paying attention to them more on the rewatch, the relationship felt earned by the end.

quote:

Shadow Weaver's act of redemption seemed a little forced? I know it's stortytelling tradition to have the most reprehensible antagonist commit a heroic sacrifice both to a) prove they really meant it and b) not have to deal with the consequences of what an rear end in a top hat they were previously, but Weaver hadn't really shown any signs of recrimination beforehand.

I wouldn't even call it an "act of redemption". Shadow Weaver's characterization is a gaslighting and abusive relationship taken to the nth degree. And part of that kind of manipulativeness is making these grand gestures to "prove" their love, which they can bring up any time someone tries to question the day-to-day lovely things they do.

When you put that kind of behavior into the context of a magic fantasy series, then of course you get literal self-immolation. That "you're welcome" was a really incredible line for this characterization.

(Noelle Stevenson talked about all this more in an interview, btw.)

Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017


I cheered when the manipulative bitch that ruined the lives of two kids died - shedding tears for her is a waste of good salt water

A Sometimes Food
Dec 8, 2010

Relinquish your foolish
delusions of control.





My reading was more wondering if they were together before the series and the show was dancing around it cause they weren't allowed to say it.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



I don't think shadow weaver was redeemed in the same sense that anyone's actually redeemed by death.


Her 'heroic sacrificial death' just happened to line up with her specific neurosis perfectly and that's really how abusive parents do be like. They're not intrinsically monsters they're just addicts and flawed people (shadow weaver being: both) who tear holes in those people who are forced to mesh with them by family ties or other structures till they either are compatibly damaged or distance themselves. Shadow-weavers whole heel turn was kind've a metaphor for 'distancing' in that she was dis-empowered without the power structure of the horde and held no sway over Adora or even Catra who were both officially over her poo poo but even than she was still trying to latch onto Glimmer because she is and always would be fundamentally herself.


Basically abusive people suck and its up to you how you deal with them because they'll rarely change fundamentally especially if they're old. But its also ok to continue to have a relationship with them if re-contextualizing works out but also than they die and its almost a waste of time trying to decide weather they were good or bad because ultimately they just Were and now Aren't. Death doesn't do narrative or closure it just takes

Sio
Jan 20, 2007

better red than dead


pentyne posted:

Everything about Adora from S1-S4 was Catra always acting irrationally as soon as Adora became a factor and borderline obsessed with showing her up or proving she doesn't need her. The constant attempt to go "look how great I'm doing now" feels like something you see 99% of the time when it comes to a romantic love relationship and not a broken platonic one. The kind of self destruction is linked to a lot deeper issues then "my sister has new friends"

Yeah. Adoraís feelings are a lot less blatant and she has a separate, more pronounced interest in a different type of woman entirely that I could totally see someone reading her side of the relationship as sisterly. But Catra? I have a hard time understanding people who can watch her act out and obsess over Adora for four seasons and not see it as her being in crazed romantic agony.

Maybe itís something you need to have lived to pick up on.

Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.


Sio posted:

Maybe it’s something you need to have lived to pick up on.

I'm a cishet dude and it was extremely obvious to me

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






I have never known or given love so I assumed it was a self-destructive obsession that would've ended with one of them either dead or comatose at the end after things escalated to attempting to blow up reality in season 3.

But between me being bad at reading media and a couple or few trans people (I don't remember if I should be using a space for it or not, sorry) saying something along the lines of 'Yeah, being melodrammatic enough to blow up the universe is a mood' I was kinda willing to accept any direction the show went so long as it wasn't weird comic book directions like Adora climbing out of a husk of her own body like a molting crab.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I posted a 7 point defense of corporate wage theft because my brain is full of worms.

Honestly not picking up on Catra's feelings in the show is like the least problematic reading of the show I've seen in this thread.

Someone calling Shadow Weaver not that bad because she was a mother and all mothers abuse their kids was a real moment.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






Honestly, CATra suddenly becoming aggressively single-mindedly obsessed with Adora the second she stops paying attention to her makes a ton of sense in hindsight.

Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 23 hours!


Nap Ghost

RareAcumen posted:

Honestly, CATra suddenly becoming aggressively single-mindedly obsessed with Adora the second she stops paying attention to her makes a ton of sense in hindsight.

Adora didn't "stop paying attention to" Catra. She left the Horde because the Horde sucks. Adora even asked Catra to go with her but Catra refused. Adora absolutely hated leaving Catra behind but she was thinking of the bigger picture and Catra was only thinking about herself.

SardonicTyrant
Feb 26, 2016

BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&





Hey look, I found a recap of She-Ra that summarizes the entire plot:

http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=327

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


SardonicTyrant posted:

Hey look, I found a recap of She-Ra that summarizes the entire plot:

http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=327

Itís going to be the Nemesis comic isnít it?

Ironslave
Aug 8, 2006

Corpse runner


Elephant Ambush posted:

Adora didn't "stop paying attention to" Catra. She left the Horde because the Horde sucks. Adora even asked Catra to go with her but Catra refused. Adora absolutely hated leaving Catra behind but she was thinking of the bigger picture and Catra was only thinking about herself.

Yeah, the last season trying to insert this whole idea that Adora doesn't stay because she left an abusive situation to do something decent with her life, and that Adora takes on too much when she's spent the entire series relying on all of her friends in the Princess Alliance, fell pretty drat flat to me. "For once please stay" is a ridiculous request because the only real time she didn't was when she abandoned the Horde, and when she did that she tried to bring Catra with her. And by the time Catra is saying this, she should probably have realized that would've been the better choice.

Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 23 hours!


Nap Ghost

Ironslave posted:

Yeah, the last season trying to insert this whole idea that Adora doesn't stay because she left an abusive situation to do something decent with her life, and that Adora takes on too much when she's spent the entire series relying on all of her friends in the Princess Alliance, fell pretty drat flat to me. "For once please stay" is a ridiculous request because the only real time she didn't was when she abandoned the Horde, and when she did that she tried to bring Catra with her. And by the time Catra is saying this, she should probably have realized that would've been the better choice.

To be fair to Catra, she hadn't seen what Adora saw. To Catra, Adora was suddenly saying and doing crazy things that made no sense. It's easier for Catra to think that the Princesses had somehow tainted Adora than to question the Horde.

The first season is incredibly well written and both Catra and Adora's perspectives make sense.

And no, Adora's whole thing was running off on her own trying to save everyone by herself. She never listened to anyone trying to hold her back because she wanted everyone to just stay out of danger. It was by far her biggest flaw and she paid for it numerous times. Catra asking her to stay, just once, made perfect sense.

Sio
Jan 20, 2007

better red than dead


Elephant Ambush posted:

To be fair to Catra, she hadn't seen what Adora saw. To Catra, Adora was suddenly saying and doing crazy things that made no sense. It's easier for Catra to think that the Princesses had somehow tainted Adora than to question the Horde.

I think itís more that Catra wasnít willing to question herself and her role in the world. She never shared Adoraís naÔvetť when it came to the Hordeís true nature, and so there was never any big moral revelation for her in the first season. She already knew the Horde was evil (she laughs when Adora tries to present this as breaking news) and had deeply internalized her abusive upbringing to the point where she didnít think she could do better.

T-man
Aug 22, 2010
Probation
Can't post for 29 days!


The "gently caress it nothing changes" response to abuse is both the easiest and the most toxic option. Adora, himbo as she is, never lost her sense of control over her life. Catra, quite clearly, had that taken from her by SW.

Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 23 hours!


Nap Ghost

Sio posted:

I think it’s more that Catra wasn’t willing to question herself and her role in the world. She never shared Adora’s naïveté when it came to the Horde’s true nature, and so there was never any big moral revelation for her in the first season. She already knew the Horde was evil (she laughs when Adora tries to present this as breaking news) and had deeply internalized her abusive upbringing to the point where she didn’t think she could do better.

That's also true!

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






Elephant Ambush posted:

Adora didn't "stop paying attention to" Catra. She left the Horde because the Horde sucks. Adora even asked Catra to go with her but Catra refused. Adora absolutely hated leaving Catra behind but she was thinking of the bigger picture and Catra was only thinking about herself.

I was just making a joke about cats wanting nothing to do with you if you seem excited to see them.

Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 23 hours!


Nap Ghost

RareAcumen posted:

I was just making a joke about cats wanting nothing to do with you if you seem excited to see them.

It is okay

Pyrotoad
Oct 24, 2010




Illegal Hen

Shadow Weaver's end makes perfect sense to me - she's lost all control over Catra and Adora, so she does and says the one thing guaranteed to let her live rent-free in their minds forever.

As for me I don't not like Catradora, and it was obvious as hell, but the whole 'Shadow Weaver's scapegoat/golden child pet project' mechanic puts a bit of a sour note on it for me, won't lie. Maybe I spend too much time reading the estranged parents thread, I can't help reading that as more familial than a traditional rivalry relationship. More a 'me' thing than a 'the show' thing, I think.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012


https://twitter.com/igaratara/statu...947408343240704

Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 23 hours!


Nap Ghost


Pyrotoad
Oct 24, 2010




Illegal Hen

That future came true

Hipster Rooster
Feb 7, 2012

I only eat organic grain



I donít remember the last time I was still thinking about a show 3 days after I had finished it. Guess I will need to do a rewatch sooner then I anticipated.

Are there any good analysis/essays talking about all the stuff I couldíve missed as a cishet, that I could read in the mean time?

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Hipster Rooster posted:

I donít remember the last time I was still thinking about a show 3 days after I had finished it. Guess I will need to do a rewatch sooner then I anticipated.

Are there any good analysis/essays talking about all the stuff I couldíve missed as a cishet, that I could read in the mean time?

Honestly, I'd say the most easily missable stuff if it's outside your personal experience is about the inner workings of narcissists and narcissistic parental abuse, which shapes a significant part of the show.

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Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 23 hours!


Nap Ghost

Hipster Rooster posted:

I donít remember the last time I was still thinking about a show 3 days after I had finished it. Guess I will need to do a rewatch sooner then I anticipated.

Are there any good analysis/essays talking about all the stuff I couldíve missed as a cishet, that I could read in the mean time?

Go back and re-read this whole thread along with each season as you watch it.

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