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Teledahn
May 14, 2009

What is that bear doing there?




Pillbug

Please enjoy this analytic thesis about the core themes of a gay rainbow cartoon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uev-yywlBug


Seriously, it's really good (especially in 2020) and I think the best take I've seen.

E: Semi-related, the other She-Ra clip on that channel is also a pretty insightful take on an episode I should refresh my memory of. S5E3 "Corridors" and Catra. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZNY2QcodGg

Teledahn fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Aug 13, 2020

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MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




I love this cartoon for little girls and I want more dammit.

Pararoid
Dec 6, 2005

Te Waipounamu pride


Just finished S5 off the back of a full rewatch.

Easily the best show of the Netflix/Streaming era imo. Its exactly what the world needs, and even though it wrapped up nicely they should absolutely do something more.

Sio
Jan 20, 2007

better red than dead


https://twitter.com/gingerhazing/st...9149211652?s=21

https://twitter.com/gingerhazing/st...8677367810?s=21

haha well i guess it’s actually a good thing this show’s over

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I posted a 7 point defense of corporate wage theft because my brain is full of worms.


Is there an explanation or something? The comments seem to blame her for not hiring any black team members.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


there was a livestream where someone made a joke about the black kid picking corn in a field, i think

they just meant it to be a joke about him being a farmer but uhhh, very unfortunate implications

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


also a guy said 'dykes' but he was talking about a podcast with the word 'dykes' in the name, because one of the people on that podcast was in the stream, so that ones just dumb

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I posted a 7 point defense of corporate wage theft because my brain is full of worms.

Yeah, clicking around the twitter people screaming cancellation at the top of their lungs its a little over the top including the main one tweeting they broke down sobbing when they saw a clip of She-Ra.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






Endorph posted:

there was a livestream where someone made a joke about the black kid picking corn in a field, i think

they just meant it to be a joke about him being a farmer but uhhh, very unfortunate implications

Endorph posted:

also a guy said 'dykes' but he was talking about a podcast with the word 'dykes' in the name, because one of the people on that podcast was in the stream, so that ones just dumb

Ahh, yeah. Good on her for just apologizing immediately, that's not something you wanna double down on not being in the wrong about.

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



Twitter's format means (almost) every problem or issue gets boiled down into the most concise, inaccurate-yet-clickable form possible. It sucks!

cartoons123
Nov 7, 2013


Someone I follow on Twitter put it well when they said there’s a dissonance between the fandom and Black Animator Twitter, which is basically taking that Sow joke as, “How White is your crew did that slip past you?”

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I posted a 7 point defense of corporate wage theft because my brain is full of worms.

lol this is dumb as poo poo. The guy using a "slur" was reading off the name of a podcast crew who were in the chat, some of the other stuff was read off fan letters, and the whole "slavery" thing is all of Bow's brothers who have jobs that rhyme with Bow but are linked to their jobs, so the farmer is named Sow.

Awful lot of anime and furry avs on twitter quick to declare she-ra is dead forever and Noelle and her crew need to be driven into the sea.

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



pentyne posted:

lol this is dumb as poo poo. The guy using a "slur" was reading off the name of a podcast crew who were in the chat, some of the other stuff was read off fan letters, and the whole "slavery" thing is all of Bow's brothers who have jobs that rhyme with Bow but are linked to their jobs, so the farmer is named Sow.

Awful lot of anime and furry avs on twitter quick to declare she-ra is dead forever and Noelle and her crew need to be driven into the sea.

There are absolutely people who are desperate to leverage a well-intentioned desire for social justice into Mean Girlsing whatever's popular in SJ circles right now. The last thing was people trying to claim Steven Universe was racist.

side_burned
Nov 3, 2004

My mother is a fish.

Pyrotoad posted:

IIRC Glimbow was decided after one of the first script reads for the finale, where either Glimmer or Bow's VA asked if they were dating or not because they couldn't tell, and the response was 'eh why not', so that might factor into it feeling a little quick.

Now I am picturing Karen Fukuhara doing that script read and then later that same day getting emailed a script about clawing her way out of a sperm whale's carcass.

side_burned fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Aug 27, 2020

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

You can catch me just lion around the forums!


Android Blues posted:

There are absolutely people who are desperate to leverage a well-intentioned desire for social justice into Mean Girlsing whatever's popular in SJ circles right now. The last thing was people trying to claim Steven Universe was racist.

Guarantee none of the mouth-frothing cancel crew on twitter are even out of high school

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

You can catch me just lion around the forums!


This says it all

https://twitter.com/FreyjaErlings/s...5739954176?s=20

side_burned
Nov 3, 2004

My mother is a fish.

Hedrigall posted:

Guarantee none of the mouth-frothing cancel crew on twitter are even out of high school

Honestly, at this point I dislike people complaining about cancel culture more than cancel culture.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I posted a 7 point defense of corporate wage theft because my brain is full of worms.

thankfully this resolves itself almost immediately because the stream is being reposted endlessly on twitter and anyone can take 5 secs to find out the details.

It's not even cancel culture is just a healthy mix of terminally online people looking for their next flame war. Same poo poo probably happens in Hamilton fandom every couple of weeks.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


the farmer joke was poorly thought out and would have been caught by anyone who had talked to a black person about it for five seconds, which speaks poorly to the racial diversity of the crew

however, there's a loooong bridge between that and the entire staff being virulent racists

mycot
Oct 23, 2014


Hell Gem

Endorph posted:

the farmer joke was poorly thought out and would have been caught by anyone who had talked to a black person about it for five seconds, which speaks poorly to the racial diversity of the crew

however, there's a loooong bridge between that and the entire staff being virulent racists

The other animation thread referred to the incident as the cast being outed as homophobic racists, which kinda says everything about the level of conversation that's being had on this.

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.



Love to refer to a highly queer cast as 'homophobic', thank you twitter geniuses.

Also another thing I saw going around but didn't see brought up here - people are claiming Noelle and the crew 'joked about DT being a pedo'. Which they didn't. What they said was that DT studied children's behaviors in order to more accurately pretend to be a child for spying purposes. But 'pedo' gets a more outraged reaction than 'slightly creepy but well meant' so throw that on the fire too, I guess.

Asgerd
May 6, 2012






Grimey Drawer

Nobody will remember this bullshit nontroversy in a week, except for people who already hated the show and will use literally anything as ammunition.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


I saw a lot of replies in those twitter threads of 'I always felt she was racist' and 'i got a bad vibe from her years ago', like they've been gunning for one misstep to prove their gut theory.

al-azad
May 28, 2009





What was the actual "sow" joke? I get it's a reference to an internal piece of art making pun names of Bow's brothers, but did someone use Sow specifically out of context? I seriously can't find it because every search result is clogged by bad actors and people stupidly feuding with bad actors.

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



It's a clip of a livestream where a production team running joke is being described where Bow has a bunch of brothers with rhyming names who do things related to their names, like how Bow does archery.

So there's Gough, who is an artist with a missing ear, Oboe, who plays the oboe, and then a moment is described where a member of the team was like, "hey, which of Bow's siblings likes to till the fields?" "I dunno, who?" "Sow!".

That's the whole moment under discussion.

al-azad
May 28, 2009





I can't tell other people how they should feel about this but that is the dumbest thing to get mad about. Like there's definitely something to be said about the way Entrapta is handled, you can get mad about an a majority white staff, but I can't believe there's any true outrage except from people who had a personal bone to pick with a cartoon.

I ain't given that dude views to check but I would put money on The Quartering having a pinned post like "SJW DARLING CANCELED BY REGRESSIVE LEFT" and that's all the evidence you need that this is some manufactured bullshit by bad faith actors exacerbated by Twitter's inability to hold any real discourse.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!






Taco Defender

Asgerd posted:

Nobody will remember this bullshit nontroversy in a week, except for people who already hated the show and will use literally anything as ammunition.


al-azad posted:

Like there's definitely something to be said about the way Entrapta is handled
Is there? As an autistic person myself, I adore how Entrapta was handled - she feels very realistic and most of the problems arising from her autism boil down to 'maybe don't assume the worst from someone who has different communication priorities and assumptions than you'(and also felt realistic in that regard - from the POV of an autistic person, non-autistic people can make a lot of incredibly strange-seeming assumptions about what you're doing and are apparently allergic to just asking what you're thinking or intending).

Carpator Diei
Feb 26, 2011


The_Doctor posted:

I saw a lot of replies in those twitter threads of 'I always felt she was racist' and 'i got a bad vibe from her years ago', like they've been gunning for one misstep to prove their gut theory.

It's probably also a somewhat political fear that people who appear to be allies and supporters might turn out to be traitors. I also saw replies like that, though more along the lines of "If this is what they feel comfortable with on livestream, imagine the stuff they're saying when the cameras are off!" And I'm willing to believe that that is a genuine worry that people have with regards to those who've ended up in publicly visible and therefore representative positions. Combine that with parasocial relationships and a medium of communication that makes it pretty much impossible to assess intent and to extend goodwill, and you end up with a situation where it's only logical for people to interpret every sign of problematic behaviour as the worst-case scenario; like, sometimes the pertinent question is not "Do I have reasons to not believe that this person has good intentions?", but "Can I afford to risk being wrong in assuming that this person has good intentions?"
I just hope that this will not end with a lasting rift, and that the She-Ra team can do something that will be interpreted as a genuine commitment to anti-racism (and yeah, hiring some poc staff members would obviously be a good idea in and of itself).

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I posted a 7 point defense of corporate wage theft because my brain is full of worms.

Thats a lot of words for "some queer teens flipped the gently caress out and grossly mischaracterized a 30 min live stream"

Carpator Diei
Feb 26, 2011


pentyne posted:

Thats a lot of words for "some queer teens flipped the gently caress out and grossly mischaracterized a 30 min live stream"

Uhm, that's a pretty lovely thing to say, to be quite honest; I mean, I even agree that things are getting overinterpreted and that all of this is a horrible situation, but it just can't be reduced to queer people "flipping out" (you probably didn't intend that, but it sounds a lot like the old trope of accusing marginalized people of being overly emotional when they're speaking out).
(Unless you're implying that that is what my post reads like; in that case, that was absolutely not my intention and I apologize for phrasing it badly).

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I posted a 7 point defense of corporate wage theft because my brain is full of worms.

Carpator Diei posted:

Uhm, that's a pretty lovely thing to say, to be quite honest; I mean, I even agree that things are getting overinterpreted and that all of this is a horrible situation, but it just can't be reduced to queer people "flipping out" (you probably didn't intend that, but it sounds a lot like the old trope of accusing marginalized people of being overly emotional when they're speaking out).
(Unless you're implying that that is what my post reads like; in that case, that was absolutely not my intention and I apologize for phrasing it badly).

That's why i said "some" not all.

Of the major 5 points they claimed as TW only 1 of them is even remotely accurate and then is a farming reference to a homophone name of a black main characters sibling which is being described as show cancelling racism and an assault against black animators.

A ton of people expressing opinions like only bipoc are allowed to talk and anyone else (I'm assuming also straight black people) arent allowed to have an opinion about it, lots of "I always knew they were racist" and a lot of "I speak for all X" in the tone of the discourse.

The 7th Guest
Dec 17, 2003



the problem is the joke came from someone very high up, if it had come from a color checker or a storyboard revisionist it would have upset people but it would've been a different upset than hearing it come from the showrunner and creator who ostensibly makes creative hiring decisions

then you multiply that by queer fandom which is constantly having to learn how people who make the things they like are shitheads (noelle isn't a shithead in this case obviously), then multiply it by covid quarantining making everyone stir crazy and always online

Booky
Feb 21, 2013

chill bug


the other stuff is real big misinformation for the most part, but the farming 'joke' imo, just kinda shows the issue with homogeneous, all white crews on stuff and having inside jokes in that vein.

there's also the general societal issue with how racism can spread unnoticed to even people who would never describe themselves as a racist and see themselves as allies cause we all grow up in, and absorb, racism in our communities and societies. everyone's gotta really work to unlearn it, i feel like. this thread about racism is pretty interesting, and i particularly liked this point about engrained racism: https://twitter.com/sapphicsirena/s...853140289093633

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




...America is so incredibly hosed with race jesus.

It's a dumb pun about farming, but because of the centuries of oppression of black people it awakens a lot of scars. This is horrifying.

al-azad
May 28, 2009





Haifisch posted:



Is there? As an autistic person myself, I adore how Entrapta was handled - she feels very realistic and most of the problems arising from her autism boil down to 'maybe don't assume the worst from someone who has different communication priorities and assumptions than you'(and also felt realistic in that regard - from the POV of an autistic person, non-autistic people can make a lot of incredibly strange-seeming assumptions about what you're doing and are apparently allergic to just asking what you're thinking or intending).

The issue stems from She-Ra being a children's show with low stakes and bumbling villains so you have this adult woman who is presented as childish and naive happily build weapons for an evil empire. The one outwardly neuro-divergent character is tricked into working for the obvious bad guys which some people find to be a tired trope and I can see where they're coming from although I totally treasured every second she was on screen. People talking about She-Ra sequels, give me Scorpia and Entrapta road show wandering from town to town cleaning up after the Horde.

MonsieurChoc posted:

...America is so incredibly hosed with race jesus.

It's a dumb pun about farming, but because of the centuries of oppression of black people it awakens a lot of scars. This is horrifying.

It really is. A family friend (white) was jokingly describing me to his wife and he said something like "Yeah, he's some kind of government spook" and she was horrified and he got super embarrassed once he realized.

In the Aggretsuko community there was a real to-do over human depictions of Gori because her English actor is a woman of color and she's presented in a similar manner to a strong black woman archetype whether that was intentional by Sanrio or not but the association of black people with monkeys is an entire cargo ship of worms.

Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

al-azad posted:

The issue stems from She-Ra being a children's show with low stakes and bumbling villains so you have this adult woman who is presented as childish and naive happily build weapons for an evil empire. The one outwardly neuro-divergent character is tricked into working for the obvious bad guys which some people find to be a tired trope and I can see where they're coming from although I totally treasured every second she was on screen. People talking about She-Ra sequels, give me Scorpia and Entrapta road show wandering from town to town cleaning up after the Horde.

Hard agree. I'm autistic and I will defend my fictional neurosister with my last breath

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






Entrapta's weird because I feel like I've seen characters like her before but gently caress if I can actually name anyone.

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



Totally irrelevant to her status as autistic representation, but I always thought it was dumb how Entrapta totally embraces being an amoral, omnicidal weapons developer because she's apparently just too oblivious to realise she's hurting people?

Like, the thrust of the early seasons is more "Entrapta is totally amoral and cares only for science" but then she gets a half-hearted demi-redemption in the back half where actually she was never really bad at all, just naive. But it also doesn't really acknowledge that she ever did bad things, or actively developed a planet-destroying superweapon and then attempted to use it.

Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

I think that Entrapta is similar to Catra, Hordak, etc. in that their bad actions are easily forgiven because 1) a broad section of the audience sees them as sympathetic; 2) their crimes are understood as Not That Bad because it's a kid's show that's trying to model how we should understand and treat people in our everyday lives, not convey the realities of war. It would be less awkward if the show wasn't about a war, but Noelle and Co were kind of constrained by the She-Ra source material and I think they did a pretty good job overall.

Pththya-lyi fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Aug 28, 2020

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Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



Yeah, that's pretty much right I guess.

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