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Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
I sort of feel like if Catra's redemption comes, it can't be based on her relationship with Adora. Her whole problem is that Adora is the only person she really cared for beside herself, and to become a hero, she has to develop a broader conscience and sense of empathy. Them patching up their relationship (assuming they don't just find healthier relationships with other people) seems like it would come after that, not before.

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Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
One thing to remember about Episode 11 is that Catra reached her decision after being bombarded by very specific memories in a very specific pattern by a Definitely Trustworthy And Not At All Sinister AI who really wanted Adora to abandon her emotional connections. Seriously, that shot of Light Hope telling her to 'let go' immediately after Catra walked away was shady as gently caress, and I really doubt that the parallels with Episode 7 were accidental. Just an over/under on how many episodes it is until we find out that Mara was totally right, I reckon.

In that context, Catra fell so hard and fast because she was subjected to a sustained and vicious emotional assault by someone very powerful and very manipulative who went after her psychological weak spots with a hammer, and because she didn't have a good enough, healthy enough support network to help her bounce back. In a show about the power of friendship. Yeah, I wouldn't write her off just yet.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Cockmaster posted:

At least there was some plausible explanation for it - it was stated that Entrapta's science project with the Black Garnet was starting to gently caress poo poo up all over the planet. Which would certainly alert each and every princess to the fact that something big was going down, such that sitting at home and minding one's own business was no longer a viable strategy against the Horde. Though you're certainly right in that it would have been nice for them to actually show that.

I mean, it was presumably sapping their runestones as well, which is a really good reason for them to sit up and take notice. I feel like the scene where they all sealed themselves away behind barriers created with their powers was decent setup for how things went down - no powers, no barrier.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
Imp looking more human makes it freakier/cooler when he opens his mouth and it turns out he really isn't. Seriously, giving Transformers Prime Soundwave's gimmick to a small demon child was a wonderfully awful idea.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
TBF, I never really felt during this season that Glimmer and Adora had that kind of chemistry. They really are just good friends, especially when you contrast their relationship to the gallons of tension Adora has with Catra. Like, it may well be that Adora/Catra doesn't work out at all in the long run, and they both find different people, but I feel like the writers have given themselves a pretty big uphill struggle if they want to make Gilmmer/Adora their endgame.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Libluini posted:

I want to believe you, but I have no idea what either of this means.

Meaningless buzzwords that we're going to look back on and cringe at in a few years' time. I mean, 'hopepunk' is already a pretty silly name.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

CuwiKhons posted:

There's a huge burst of fire escaping out of the doors as soon as they close so I'm not super surprised the princesses just assumed Entrapta got flame broiled. It's only a quick shot though and the show should have been more clear about it because I also had a friend watch the show and they were confused about why the princesses thought Entrapta was dead too.

What's weirder to me is that Entrapta apparently spent 2 days in the vents and never made any attempt at escaping on her own? I get that she thought her friends were going to come back for her but also she's obviously good at stealth. Just... leave?

Way too much cool tech lying around.

No, seriously, that's the answer.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
Incidentally, it's be cool if they take some animation tips from this scene in a future big Glimmer fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar7fHWRMNoE

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
This will be a very giffable season.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Gaz-L posted:

Netflix should really make it clear to Dreamworks that this is their plan, because DW are clearly making these shows with the normal 13-26 episode cycle in mind and building to season finales based on that. They try with these 'mid-season finale' episodes but they're almost always character studies that don't get paid off for months or years.

Also had to laugh at how :effort: they were with making Scorpia's crush on Catra deniably platonic.

Since they have an actual onscreen gay couple as central characters in an episode, I assumed that was more about Scorpia herself not quite getting it.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Labes for days posted:

Next time on She-Ra: the heroes must make a perilous journey into the Fright Zone to retrieve Entapta’s belongings because all her stuff is there now, so she’ll probably just stay.

A lot of my misgivings about the first season have really been cleared up in the second. A big annoyance of mine was that Hordak did nothing but yell at his subordinates in the first season, but I guess it makes sense that he can’t do much given that he appears to be either ill or decomposing.

Also, he just wants to get home, and they can't help him much with that.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Chokes McGee posted:

She’s an abused product of her environment that’s colossally in over her head and will ultimately be saved by the love of a good insectoid :hai:

Arachnid. :colbert:

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

twistedmentat posted:

Huh, never thought of that. Shadoweavers former student guy will probably come back at some point. Though I thought it was funny that the Wizard School people were all "Well, we can't actually fight against this army thats invading the planet, its not our business".

It's awesome that a show as gay as this was able to do an episode about coming out that was also really good.

That was Glimmer's now-dead dad, King Micah.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

BIG HEADLINE posted:

Scorpia would more likely switch sides because once she realizes Catra is never going to acknowledge, let alone *requite* her feelings for her, she'll realize at long last that toiling for The Horde does nothing but sacrifice everyone else's dreams for Hordak's ambitions. She's a starry-eyed NCO who hasn't been made to "embrace the suck" yet and still thinks she's ~making a difference~.

She's likely got a really :smith: story arc coming. Probably culminating with her stealing the Black Garnet back.

But I don't see Entrapta deciding to go genocidal so long as Hordak agrees to bring her to other planets. She might be *tempted*, but nope.

There does need to be a skosh more "dark" on this show, though. Not enough to traumatize kids, but enough to reflect/mirror some of the horror of our world. Hordak needs to be all but branded into an example of what unchecked neofeudal corporatism will do to a planet. They're already halfway there with Adora letting her strategist out and saying "we need to stop being reactionary and be proactive or poo poo's never getting done."

Horde Prime seems like a better candidate for that. Hordak is just done with this poo poo and wants to go home, far as I can tell.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
I'm still thinking that Mara was a hero and the Ancients were up to something terrible that she stopped. It feels like the obvious setup.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Regy Rusty posted:

It's an 80s cartoon so the concept of an ongoing storyline hadn't yet been invented by animation scientists

Ironically, the anime that a bunch of 80s cartoons plagiarised from/were inspired by did have fairly involved ongoing stories.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
Wow, it really is just parent issues all the way down, isn't it?

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

nerdman42 posted:

3x02: Just rewatching that Hordak flashback scene a million times, its so GORGEOUS. I need that music so bad and Keston John's guttural but desperate "I am not a defect. I am WORTH something" is so raw.

Also I thought they weren't allowed to use Horde Prime?


I also liked how that episode fleshed out Hordak's relationship with Imp. The little guy's very obviously a failed clone, and yet Hordak treats him with nothing but kindness. :unsmith:

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Labes for days posted:

Holy crap I didn’t even put two and two together on that. :3:

This “season” has been amazing. I hope the next one has a happy ending, though. I have faith that Hordak will work with Adora to get Entrapta off Beast Island, right after Scorpia tells him about what Catra did. Because she’s too nice, but not so nice that she’s going to allow Catra to hurt a friend.

The next season (or seasons, depending on how they chop it up) will be the third quarter of the story, setting up the final conflict. I would be quite surprised if it has an especially happy ending. Hordak is firmly in Catra's Abuse Victims Making Terrible Decisions Club, and I'd assume he'll stay there for a while, at least until he gets some time to interact with Horde Prime again. If a Horde member does help get Entrapta off Beast Island, I'd expect it to be Imp. He likes her, he doesn't like Catra, and he sees everything.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
I think this is why Shadow Weaver remains the worst person in the show (excluding Horde Prime, who we haven't really met yet). She always had a choice. She was the start of her particular cycle of abuse - she just woke up one day and decided that what she really wanted to do with her life was manipulating children into doing terrible things for her ambitions and leaving them with permanent psychological scars from the experience.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Carlton Banks Teller posted:

Isn't Entrapta guilty of this as well? I know she has a massive fanbase here but I just don't get it. Sure, she's "blinded by science" but she is such in so ethically-blind a way that I don't find her sympathetic at all.

I feel like she's just severely clueless, and is slowly (very slowly) starting to get it (thanks to Hordak, of all people). She's not a manipulator, she just likes science and is learning that sometimes, not all science is good because it leads to her friends getting hurt. Shadow Weaver, on the other hand, is fully aware of what she's doing, and carefully plans out every awful thing she does.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Laughing Zealot posted:

Perfuma hugging Shadow-Weaver in the last episode :xd:

I wonder what role the latter's gonna play now. Prior history with the group and all that.


Shadow Weaver's a serial child abuser who just got introduced to a whole new crop of kids. She's already started using one of them as a battery, and said battery's mum just disappeared so she's dangerously short on healthy adult guidance. Things are going to get a lot worse in Brightmoon before they get better.

As for Catra, while she does have a big problem with blaming other people for her own mistakes, she's also right that Shadow Weaver completely broke her mind. She's not going to willingly change sides at this point, but she's probably the most extreme abuse victim in a story for kids about child abuse, so I think that she will end up being treated somewhat kindly in the end. Treating her as completely beyond salvation doesn't seem responsible given the target audience, some of whom may see themselves in her.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

tsob posted:

I'm probably in the minority here, but I actually find Catra to be a shittier person than Shadow Weaver. Sure, she's a lovely person because of Shadow Weaver, but she's a lovely person that has done more (at least obviously) awful things to people close to her. She not only tried to kill her best friend and sister of years on multiple occasions, but has gone out of her way to make her miserable at every opportunity. She's also lied about and screwed over other friends and allies constantly in order to enable more chances to gently caress up Adora's life. The main reason Entrapta is in the Fright Zone in the first place is because she lied to her about Adora having abandoned her, even though she had to know that wasn't true. And now she's lied to Hordak about Entrapta being the source of his latest set back too.

I suspect the main reason why though is simply that Shadow Weaver is too cold and impersonal to really hate, while Catra is human enough that you can empathize with her in a way you can't with Shadow Weaver and hate both her mindset and actions on a lot more emotional level. That, and the fact that Catra has constantly poo poo all over the protagonists life and tried to kill her, while Shadow Weaver has mostly been in the background as a motivation for Catra herself.


She's not entirely blinded by science though, just mostly. The biggest example of that being this season's finale, where she knew the portal wasn't working and suspected that using She-Ra's sword would gently caress things up, so she wanted to run tests and experiments first to determine the risks; then, when she saw that the risk was "blow up the loving world", she no longer wished to do it. She noted at one point that risk is an inherent part of progress, and she's kind of right about that. She's not entirely careless about risk or her pursuit of science though, so it makes her more sympathetic. Additionally, she actually gives a poo poo about (some) people. Hordak being the best example; immediately trying to find a way to make him feel better when he's falling apart from angst/pain. Not just physically by building him a new armor, but emotionally by talking about how imperfections are beautiful, because they allow you to learn and grow. She's a crazy, hosed up person; but you can see she has some redeeming qualities.


Would it actually have prevented anything though? She hates that Adora is the one that gets Shadow Weaver's love, that everything seems to go right for and that always wins in the end; I doubt having slept with her would change that anymore than growing up alongside her did.


That's basically true of season one's finale as well, to be fair. Entrapta made it pretty clear that using the machine would have major implications for the entire world, and Catra just ignored her to go straight to using it simply for the chance to one up Adora; and then tried to kill Adora multiple times in the process. The real change this season is that she hosed over an apparent friend in Entrapta to get her way, not just an apparent enemy. Entrapta and Scorpia each know something of what she did in the finale too, so I suspect that while Scorpia won't have given up on Catra, she will have realized that Catra needs more than just her love and that all she was doing is enabling her. Catra has pushed away everyone who liked her in an obsession with being more than Adora, and is only left with Hordak at this point. Who doesn't like her anyway, and will definitely turn on her the second he finds out she lied about Entrapta. Catra will presumably shift allegiance to Horde Prime at some point, but she's running out of friends and allies to burn. It's loving weird to feel more sympathy for and see Hordak as more redeemable than Catra at this point.

Shadow Weaver is worse because her entire life's work is using and breaking kids. Any one of them could be the next Catra, and the ones who aren't still end up permanently scarred. Catra is tragic because the person who raised her and shaped her entire being taught her to value her approval more than anything else in the world, and then made sure she would never get it because she only ever saw interest and value in one of her daughters, and only needed Catra around so she'd have someone to be better than. It was only ever a matter of time until she realised the game was rigged and went full nihilist because her horrible mother never thought it would be useful for her to care about other people, but did give her a master-class in how to manipulate them. Seriously, pretty much every nasty, mind-gamey tactic Catra uses was pioneered by SW.

Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Aug 4, 2019

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Madurai posted:

Wait... do we know that?

She expressed disappointment that she wasn't the last She-Ra, implying there were multiple people before her who held the title.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

AlternateNu posted:

See, I got the impression that Imp was one of the Hordak's failed attempts to clone himself a body. But he kept Imp around because he's clearly sentient and relatively intelligent.

And because he's not going to be his clone-dad - on that level, at least.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Ups_rail posted:

Eh this show is alittle odd. I feel like theirs too many characters but the only one that is compelling is you guessed it catra.

I wonder how much is somewhat janky writing and the other budget issues the hordak just breaking character to explain stuff was weird and he just doesnt come off as a threat how does he keep the frightzone in line?


Still look forward to see what happens next.

He's opening up because he's finally got someone who will understand what he's talking about. The entire core of Hordak's character is that he is lonely as gently caress. As for how he keeps the Fright Zone functioning, it's the same reason he's so lonely - he's the only person who understands how all the immensely advanced, deadly technology he's built works. Also, Imp is a really good spy.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

pentyne posted:

Is the prevailing message that Catra should get a happy ending because she was a victim too?

Trauma or not, causing the death of people isnt something that gets wiped off the slate because of regret. I would hope its not some 80s cartoon fairy tale ending where Glimmer goes "got my mom,killed, nbd we all know SW was cruel to you"

SW getting 'accepted' into the friend group is pretty dumb but thats clearly a set up for her to influence the cause in nefarious ways and hurt more people.

Angella got imprisoned between dimensions in a wormhole that we as the audience know is going to get reopened at some point (so Horde Prime can drop by and say hi). She very specifically did not die.

Catra, meanwhile, is a character in a kids' show about surviving and moving past parental abuse, and there are going to be kids in the audience who will identify with her. The writing team aren't going to say 'nope, sorry, Susan, your mother broke you forever and you're beyond redemption'.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
Yeah, there are two characters in the show who are almost certainly irredeemable - Shadow Weaver and Horde Prime - for the exact same reason that Catra will likely never be completely beyond hope. This is a kids' show, and it's not the responsibility of kids to redeem the adults abusing and manipulating them.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

HorseLord posted:

You can say that she treats her kids in lovely indefensible ways but I mean yeah, she's a mother, they all do that, it's baseline human behavior. Part of being an adult is deciding which way you pretend it didn't happen to you.

:stare:

You, uh, might wanna see someone about that one, chief.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

SardonicTyrant posted:

I can't believe She-Ra is a retelling of Evangelion, complete with Catra starting Third Impact.

So, what you're saying is that Scorpio is going to bite off Shadow Weaver's head?

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Saucy_Rodent posted:

Is it possible not to get so deeply, personally offensive when criticizing someone’s bad takes on a TV show? Not all dumb posts are signs of mental illness.

I feel like reacting to a literal cartoon supervillain whose power is child abuse with 'I don't get why people think she's evil, seems like a regular mother to me' is a bit more revealing than your average bad take.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
Yes, the cartoon supervillain who latches onto powerful children and emotionally abuses them until they want to blow up big chunks of the planet to help her/hurt her is, in fact, bad and evil and not a perfectly normal parent. Quit universalising your awful childhood, dude.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
Besides, they never said what she was doing would kill her. It would just trap her between dimensions on a way they didn't know how to reverse.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
Again, the show explicitly said that Angela didn't die. She just imprisoned herself between dimensions. Entrapta should be able to get her out of that eventually.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

T-man posted:

she has the nerd voice and nerd accent

See also, Professor Frink.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Cool, not too far away then.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Captain Oblivious posted:

Horde Prime

On the one hand his vestigial side eyes make me instantly think "okay who's the mutant defect here?" but on the other hand it would cheapen Hordaks arc for Horde Prime to need to fail at his own philosophy to be owned. I dunno.

Either way though this season was a loving rollercoaster and I desperately need the finale season


I assumed Prime's extra eyes exist for the same reason as all of his clones - he's tried to make himself the ultimate life-form through unethical experiment after unethical experiment, with a significant failure-rate. He's probably on, like, his hundredth body by now. If he didn't have impossibly, unreachably high standards for himself, he wouldn't have turned himself into an entire hive-minded species.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Moon Slayer posted:

So, they never actually said it, but it was pretty strongly implied that Glimmer let Double Trouble out and hired him to sow chaos in the Fright Zone, right? That's why he just up and revealed what happened to Entrapta. I'm not just imagining this?

Yeah, they spelled it out when they signalled Glimmer to give her the go-ahead.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
Yeah, the First Ones basically turned Eternia into a Death Star with a genocidal AI. It's bad news because it's designed to eliminate anything that isn't a First One planet, and oh look whoops the First Ones are extinct.

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Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Doctor Reynolds posted:

Flower Girl can magically generate food and building material and herbs and spices! Bright Moon can teleport stuff! Robots with functionally infinite energy exist! Magic! I just don't see how money would even form in such a society.

Star Trek has money, and conveniently answers most of these questions. In a post-scarcity society, money is used for the trade of luxuries, and serves as a useful fallback for when the tech that keeps you post-scarcity goes on the blink.

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