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Dr.Radical
Apr 3, 2011


drat that’s a beauty. Hopefully he ate it. Madai are delicious

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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Pillbug

Silva/Takase
Silva/Chonan

Work or shoot?

Points in favour of work, for both:

1 - Journeyman Japanese underdog wins
2 - Come-from-behind submission
3 - Odd submissions
4 - Silva working but not really looking for kill
5 - Pride
6 - Yakuza

Points in favour of shoot, for both:

1 - Silva seemed genuinely upset by the losses
2 - ???

I haven't watched them for a while, but Fighting in the Age of Loneliness got me thinking about them, and I can't figure out how Silva could possibly go from beating then A-level opponents in Newton and Lee Murray to losing to those dudes like he did.

So - Works or Shoots?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



CommonShore posted:

Points in favour of shoot, for both:

1 - Silva seemed genuinely upset by the losses
2 - ???

Silva was not a well rounded fighter, and heavily a striker in the Pride era.
His TDD was fairly limited in those days.
His submission grappling skill back then is a big question mark.

Once Chonan got it to the ground, I'm not surprised that a knee attack completely freaked Silva out.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Pillbug

kimbo305 posted:

Silva was not a well rounded fighter, and heavily a striker in the Pride era.
His TDD was fairly limited in those days.
His submission grappling skill back then is a big question mark.

Once Chonan got it to the ground, I'm not surprised that a knee attack completely freaked Silva out.

Counterpoint - Carlos Newton and Jeremy Horn are both accomplished grapplers, especially for the era, and Silva beat them in the same phase of his career (though I haven't seen the Horn fight).

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009


It sounds like you didn't watch any of the fights and are mythologizing Silva based on what he did in the UFC. He was a flawed, aggressive striker which left him open to takedowns and counterpunches.

coconono
Aug 11, 2004

KISS ME KRIS

I can't remember if I saw the Takase fight but the Chonan one was totally shoot. Silva tried some spinning poo poo and it went badly.

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.


Also Silva was basically losing the Chonan fight the whole time, took more risks as the fight went on, and got subbed. Nothing about how the fight played out screams shoot to me.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



1st AD posted:

Also Silva was basically losing the Chonan fight the whole time, took more risks as the fight went on, and got subbed.
I would say it was pretty even. Chonan was getting marked up and was less active, but he was landing very efficiently. Would not have complained about a Chonan decision even though, iirc, Mauro was calling it like he was dead meat.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Pillbug

Tezcatlipoca posted:

It sounds like you didn't watch any of the fights and are mythologizing Silva based on what he did in the UFC. He was a flawed, aggressive striker which left him open to takedowns and counterpunches.

I've watched them both, just not for a long while, and never with the "work/shoot" question in mind. I don't really have a horse in the race here - I just got thinking about it and decided it was good thread conversation.

TheCool69
Sep 23, 2011


Didnt Chonan really mess Silvas knee up with that heel hook? I remember Silva screaming in pain after Ryo released the hold

TheCool69
Sep 23, 2011


Talking about "works" time to go through the list again.

I guess these are the verified works (Pancrase fights not included)

Macias vs Taktarov (UFC 6)
Frye vs Hall (Ultimate Ultimate 96)
Coleman vs Takada (Pride 5)

CarlCX
Dec 14, 2003

and she walked in
looking like dynamite




TheCool69 posted:

Talking about "works" time to go through the list again.

I guess these are the verified works (Pancrase fights not included)

Macias vs Taktarov (UFC 6)
Frye vs Hall (Ultimate Ultimate 96)
Coleman vs Takada (Pride 5)

Nathan Jones vs Koji Kitao at Pride 1, according to him.

I.N.R.I
May 26, 2011


CommonShore posted:

Silva/Takase
Silva/Chonan

Work or shoot?

Points in favour of work, for both:

1 - Journeyman Japanese underdog wins
2 - Come-from-behind submission
3 - Odd submissions
4 - Silva working but not really looking for kill
5 - Pride
6 - Yakuza

Points in favour of shoot, for both:

1 - Silva seemed genuinely upset by the losses
2 - ???

I haven't watched them for a while, but Fighting in the Age of Loneliness got me thinking about them, and I can't figure out how Silva could possibly go from beating then A-level opponents in Newton and Lee Murray to losing to those dudes like he did.

So - Works or Shoots?

chonan worked (actual work rate.. not wrestling jargon) hard the whole fight .. i think silva just tapped quickly because of the injury risk. it was the most beautiful mma performance ive seen

I.N.R.I
May 26, 2011


i think i saw footage somewhere of silva crying backstage after the loss too .. or maybe it was chonan crying with joy.. one of them was crying anyway. so there was real emotion

I.N.R.I
May 26, 2011


i personally think silva is the best fighter mma has seen since mister gracie first showed everyone how its done, but he has had to work very hard in a lot of his victories .. and it only takes a top 10 guy on a really good day when you're on a mediocre day for them to get the better of you

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



I.N.R.I posted:

i think i saw footage somewhere of silva crying backstage after the loss too .. or maybe it was chonan crying with joy.. one of them was crying anyway. so there was real emotion

When I ready your post, I thought it was Chonan, but he doesn't tear up.
Silva's crying in pain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LLkTGsEwBQ#t=41s

Bluedeanie
Jul 20, 2008

It's no longer a blue world, Max. Where could we go?



Silva was crying and worried he had a serious injury. Chonan was calmly repeating how bqd Silva kickef his rear end while his face swole up like he was allergic to fists.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LLkTGsEwBQ

e;fb

coconono
Aug 11, 2004

KISS ME KRIS

uh Royce Gracie was terrible at MMA. He only looked good in those early UFCs because they were scams designed to make him rich. Gracie wagered(correctly) that given a field of wannabe ninjas and assorted striking disciplines, he could wrap them up and choke them out because they'd be expecting some bushido bullshit arm punching or whatever. Severn got into the mix because Gracie figured if he could handle Ken Shamrock, then Severn shouldn't be much of an issue.

Once dudes started figuring out how to properly fight multilevel fights, the advantages grapplers enjoyed in the early UFCs started to slip.

IMO dudes like Ken Shamrock or Guy Mezger were much better proto-MMA fighters since they could strike and grapple, which put them ahead of the game when most of the competitors could one well and sorta knew about the other.

I.N.R.I
May 26, 2011


coconono posted:

uh Royce Gracie was terrible at MMA. He only looked good in those early UFCs because they were scams designed to make him rich. Gracie wagered(correctly) that given a field of wannabe ninjas and assorted striking disciplines, he could wrap them up and choke them out because they'd be expecting some bushido bullshit arm punching or whatever. Severn got into the mix because Gracie figured if he could handle Ken Shamrock, then Severn shouldn't be much of an issue.

Once dudes started figuring out how to properly fight multilevel fights, the advantages grapplers enjoyed in the early UFCs started to slip.

IMO dudes like Ken Shamrock or Guy Mezger were much better proto-MMA fighters since they could strike and grapple, which put them ahead of the game when most of the competitors could one well and sorta knew about the other.

i never accused royce gracie of being good at mma.. and well thats really a bit like saying the ancient greeks were poo poo at medicine. i wouldnt want them in charge of my healthcare but they provided the foundation for modern medicine. the gracies opened the door for everybody else, not least by providing cheap grappling schools for the brazillians

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



coconono posted:

uh Royce Gracie was terrible at MMA. He only looked good in those early UFCs because they were scams designed to make him rich.
Gracie wagered(correctly) that given a field of wannabe ninjas and assorted striking disciplines, he could wrap them up and choke them out because they'd be expecting some bushido bullshit arm punching or whatever.

Not disagreeing with your general claim that the non-Gracie competitors would assume a guy in a gi would do some striking, but Rorion worked with Art Davies to set up the event. Rorion picked Royce over Rickson as part of the sales job for BJJ, and presumably made the money, not Royce. Wasn't this also in one of the Age of Loneliness episodes?

Rorion vetoed a few competitors who might have been harder to beat for UFC 1. It wasn't a wager that bullshido dudes could be tapped easily -- they already experienced that kind of dojo challenge at Gracie schools.
I don't think they ever fully discounted in-shape wrestlers.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Pillbug

I'm going to rewatch em both right now because right

coconono
Aug 11, 2004

KISS ME KRIS

I thought Royce was the one dealing with Art. I'm going on old podcast interviews with Art Davies when Art was doing the rounds shilling his book. lovely Memory Hell Yeah.

Haven't actually seen that new Join Bous or whoever's youtube podcast thing.

But yeah, watch more early MMA, there was some absolutely crazy poo poo happening. Like dudes getting tapped out because the other guy was feet squeezing their balls and stuff.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Pillbug

Hahaha holy poo poo the English-language commentary on the Takase fight is loving ridiculous. Bas and other dude are like "Silva is definitely 100% going to KO Takase."

Silva easily avoids the first two takedowns, but Takase gets it on the third by chain wrestling a bit. Silva's bottom defensive game jits looks ok in this fight. Some weird poo poo happening with Takase's gloves. Takase has a key lock closed in the first round from side control and Silva escapes. If Silva wanted to tap he could have tapped there. Takase is doing a pretty good job of grinding Silva down, and Silva's defensive jits is falling apart here as Takase easily holds on to side control.

Wow Takase's triangle was really loving slick on that one - stepped over into the triangle as Silva was trying to bridge out of side control.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Pillbug

The Chonan fight starts off with Silva being really passive, but he lights up Chonan about a minute in. He takes Chonan's back and secures a body triangle. Silva throwing some strikes from the rear and holding the back ride for a while, attempting the choke but unable to secure it. Silva gives up the triangle and Chonan pretty much immediately explodes into Silva's guard. Pretty heavy shots being exchanged. Chonan pretty much Sonnening Silva now in the second half of the round.

Both of these fights have way more activity in them than I remember from last time I wached them, which was years ago.

Silva gets a yellow card and the ref stands them up. Chonan throws a garbage backfist and he ends up with Silva in his guard. The ref stands it up. Some heavy shots exchanged. Chonan lands a big ROH on Silva. Round ends after a few more exchanges.

The biggest difference between this and UFC Silva is that Silva is showing no defensive head movement (I think someone said that above but I'm not scrolling up to confirm).

Bas notes that they're breathing because you need to do that to live. Thanks, Bas.

Round 2 opens at a slower pace than round 1 ended. Silva landing lots of punches on Chonan. Silva slips to the back in a scramble and suplexes Chonan. Reset to feet and action slows again. Silva just standing in front of Chonan for long periods as Chonan lands low kicks. I agree with Bas that this is a very good fight. Chonan is winning the feeling out periods, but Silva is winning the exhcanges when he decides to exchange. Chonan seems moderately hurt by a few heavy strikes but he keeps coming forward. Chonan gets a single off of a knee and we're back to Silva's guard, where Silva is pretty much just playing guard monster and keeping Chonan's posture down. Round 2 ends with Chonan just working as best he can against Silva's stalling/defensive guard.

Round 3 opens with Silva being pretty passive on the feet again and Chonan chipping away from the outside. Some trading. Chonan avoids some high kicks. Chonan does a good shot with deep penetration but Silva side steps it and gets Chonan to stand back up. Silva is being really passive and the commentators are noting it. Lands a few stiff rights to Chonan's jaw. More heavy low kicks from Chonan.

Here comes the heel hook. Camera angles get really lovely here. Chonan has a good grip on the foot but lovely leg position in the heel hook. Silva wincing and tapping before Chonan really starts to crank it but that's not unusual for heel hooks. The alternate angle makes the leg positioning look better but the early tapping/wincing looks stranger.

One thing is for sure, Chonan takes it quite some distance after Silva first taps. I could see Silva having a sore leg after that.

CarlCX
Dec 14, 2003

and she walked in
looking like dynamite




CommonShore posted:

the life and times of daiju takase

People sleep on Takase because his MMA career amounted to nothing, but he was an incredibly loving legit grappler. Dude had extremely competitive grapplefights with Elvis, Brennan, Mach, Newton and Rodrigo, he was not the kind of guy you could make mistakes with, and Silva had not quite learned not to make those mistakes yet.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Pillbug

CarlCX posted:

People sleep on Takase because his MMA career amounted to nothing, but he was an incredibly loving legit grappler. Dude had extremely competitive grapplefights with Elvis, Brennan, Mach, Newton and Rodrigo, he was not the kind of guy you could make mistakes with, and Silva had not quite learned not to make those mistakes yet.

on his grappling. His control was really tight and methodical in that fight.

Dr.Radical
Apr 3, 2011


A thing I thought was interesting about the Jon Bois/Felix Biederman mma doc as a pretty casual mma watcher who never went too deep into stuff was how it illustrated how the Gracies have always been assholes who take losing really poorly. All the stuff I had heard about the legendary Helio Gracie/Kimura fight made it sound like it was some pitched battle and then finally Kimura got the arm lock and the rest is history but no actually Kimura wiped the floor with Gracie’s rear end the whole time, repeatedly getting him in various controlling locks, one of which knocked out Gracie, and then finally in the second round decided to end things with the arm lock. But because Gracie was a weirdo, he refused to tap and got his arm broken, saying later that actually in his mind he didn’t lose, it was a “moral victory.” Lol sure dude, sure.

Basically stuff I heard in the earlier days of mma was all Gracie propaganda for the most part.

CarlCX
Dec 14, 2003

and she walked in
looking like dynamite




When Royce Gracie got his poo poo completely hosed up by Matt Hughes, the official Gracie Academy website posted a self-congratulatory article named "Royce Gracie Loses but Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Wins!" It was almost a thousand words long and only 1/4 of them were actually about the fight, and they were, unedited:

quote:

On May 27, 2006, Royce Gracie would return to the UFC to face the current welterweight champion Matt Hughes. When the bell rang and the fight started, Matt and Royce got into a clinch and went to the ground. Matt was able to pass the guard (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) and establish the sidemount (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) from which he was able to attempt a Kimura lock (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) from which he transitioned into a straight arm lock (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu). Royce was able to untangle his arm and in an attempt to get to a better position, he went to his knees. At this point, Matt quickly spun to a backmount and with his hooks (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) in controlled Royce enough to be able to end the fight with an array of punches to the back of the head.

When the fight was over, the crowd was shocked, Royce lost but Gracie Jiu-Jitsu won.

The Gracie Academy would like to congratulate Mr. Hughes on his ability to recognize the importance of incorporating Gracie Jiu-Jitsu into his arsenal of techniques and on his dedication to achieving such a high level of proficiency in these techniques.

Since 1925, the objective of the Gracie Family has been to show the world the importance of knowing Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. The Gracie Family would like to thank Mr. Hughes for his commitment to the “Gracie Cause” through his continuous demonstration of the effectiveness and efficiency of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in real combat.

Speaking as someone who deeply enjoyed learning at a Gracie academy: They have always been and will always be this way.

Freudian slippers
Jun 23, 2009
US Goon shocked and appalled to find that world is a dirty, unjust place



TheCool69 posted:

Didnt Chonan really mess Silvas knee up with that heel hook? I remember Silva screaming in pain after Ryo released the hold

I read an interview with Silva years ago, where he claimed he went into the fight with a leg injury. Might explain the panic and quick tap.

coconono posted:

I thought Royce was the one dealing with Art. I'm going on old podcast interviews with Art Davies when Art was doing the rounds shilling his book. lovely Memory Hell Yeah.

Haven't actually seen that new Join Bous or whoever's youtube podcast thing.

But yeah, watch more early MMA, there was some absolutely crazy poo poo happening. Like dudes getting tapped out because the other guy was feet squeezing their balls and stuff.

Rorion set the entire thing up as a showcase for Gracie BJJ. They chose Royce because he was the smallest and least intimidating and thus better suited to prove that BJJ would easily beat bigger, stronger men.

forkboy84
Jun 13, 2012

I thought the redtext someone dumped on you was in bad taste and a bit much so here's a corgi instead.

Freudian slippers posted:

I read an interview with Silva years ago, where he claimed he went into the fight with a leg injury. Might explain the panic and quick tap.


Rorion set the entire thing up as a showcase for Gracie BJJ. They chose Royce because he was the smallest and least intimidating and thus better suited to prove that BJJ would easily beat bigger, stronger men.

But Royler was smaller than Royce?

Freudian slippers
Jun 23, 2009
US Goon shocked and appalled to find that world is a dirty, unjust place



Good point. I shouldn't have said smallest. He was smaller and/or less intimidating than Rickson/Rorion.

https://www.mmafighting.com/2013/11...created-the-ufc

"The major issue inside the family at that time was "why Royce Gracie?" He was one of the most inexperienced fighters in the clan and clearly not the best option to put into an openweight "Vale Tudo" tournament.

"Why not?", Rorion Gracie replies.

"Everybody told me to pick Rickson Gracie," he said. "He would be a huge success, he would obviously beat all of them, but the reason why I picked Royce is because he’s a tiny, skinny guy, and that would prove that jiu-jitsu is a better martial art no matter who you’re fighting. If Rickson goes there and wins, big deal! He’s huge. It would be like a tank running over everybody. The idea was showing that even a small guy could beat a bigger opponent using jiu-jitsu.
"

Freudian slippers fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Dec 4, 2018

Dr.Radical
Apr 3, 2011


I get that Royce is thinner but he’s still 6’1. Not exactly tiny.

I remember sitting in a waiting room once waiting to take a drug test for a job (gently caress American labor laws) and some hick dude sitting close by talking to someone else about an upcoming fight (this was probably in like 2007 so whatever big was going on then) and the guy he was talking to saying something like “Royce Gracie? He’s pretty strong right?” and the hick guy responding “Oh no, he’s an itty bitty guy.” This dude was probably like 5’8 and he thought Royce Gracie at 6’1 was a tiny dude. Compared to some huge heavyweights he was fighting, sure, but to some average dude I wouldn’t say 6’1 is tiny.

willie_dee
Jun 21, 2010
I obtain sexual gratification from observing people being inflicted with violent head injuries

http://www.espn.com/mma/story/_/id/...promotion-japan

This could be cool, Bellator/Rizn

LobsterMobster
Oct 29, 2009

"I was being quiet and trying to be a good boy but he dialed the right combination to open the throw-down vault and it was on."

"Walter Foxx is ten times brighter than your bulb at the bottom of the tree merry xmas"


Scotty Cokes is mad he never got a Strikeforce vs Bellator card, and Im glad hes doing this

Seltzer
Oct 11, 2012

lego ass bitch

I just read the entire OP and am shocked that KSW did not get mentioned. KSW has the best card names and promo videos on earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDZ5tg98Ak8

Bushmeister
Nov 27, 2007
Son Of Northern Frostbitten Wintermoon

KSW is also gonna have this guy



fight this guy



and while Hong-Man Choi vs Yi Long was good, I think the Asian promotions are really gonna have to dig deep if they want to overcome this on the Freakshow Scale next year.

Seltzer
Oct 11, 2012

lego ass bitch

Bushmeister posted:

KSW is also gonna have this guy



fight this guy




When?

Also despite being less muscular the first guys body is 100 times more baffling

Bushmeister
Nov 27, 2007
Son Of Northern Frostbitten Wintermoon

No date set yet apart from "2019", but I am praying to the MMA gods that the fight goes through.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Bushmeister posted:

and while Hong-Man Choi vs Yi Long was good, I think the Asian promotions are really gonna have to dig deep if they want to overcome this on the Freakshow Scale next year.

Wow, I'd forgotten that they put HMC in against Fedor.

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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Pillbug

Bushmeister posted:

KSW is also gonna have this guy



fight this guy



and while Hong-Man Choi vs Yi Long was good, I think the Asian promotions are really gonna have to dig deep if they want to overcome this on the Freakshow Scale next year.

Added it - this is the exact kind of thing I want to add!

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