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the new testament is actually very cspam because its a collection of documents written by a group of people who thought their society was hosed and that the world would end within a generation
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Dec 8, 2018 05:54
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Mel Mudkiper posted:christianity has never been more than the severely malleable principles needed to keep the ruling classes in power op That's not true, it's just a coincedance that the leaders of the faith have always been the ruling class throughout all human history.
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Dec 8, 2018 06:16
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Every slave owning white southerner was a Christian. Coincidence?
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Dec 8, 2018 08:02
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Mysticism is really the only spiritual tradition that can not just thrive, but be useful to a leftist society.
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Dec 8, 2018 08:13
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If you arent going to cut out a chud's heart on top of a ziggurat to please the sun and stop global warming then your religion has no place in polite society.
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Dec 8, 2018 08:35
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power word- Jeb! posted:that passage gets misread a lot. it was explicitly a trap question and so his answer is ambiguous. it was an obvious trap but its pretty clear from other parts of scripture that jesus considered divine politics and earthly politics to be two different spheres. jesus is the original proponent of separation of church and state lol.
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Dec 8, 2018 08:44
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That's some Council of Nicea poo poo right there because the messiah King of Israel was supposed to be a king here on Earth too so... Like that's the entire point he is the deliverer come to free them from Rome. Otherwise why would the Romans mock him with a "king of the Jews" sign or whatever it'd make 0 sense. Why would the Romans even care if he was 100% just talking about some spiritual afterlife stuff? Why would Herod care? If you didn't gently caress with Roman rule they basically let you get up to whatever. They only cared about Israel for its trade and strategic positioning anyway. It's kind of impossible to separate out Christianity in the Roman Empire from secular politics. Moridin920 has issued a correction as of 09:08 on Dec 8, 2018 |
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Dec 8, 2018 09:01
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Anyway yeah he says "why are you trying to trap me" when he is asked should we pay taxes so that much at least should be clear.
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Dec 8, 2018 09:10
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chicktracts taught me that america is full of christians who have never actually heard of jesus
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Dec 8, 2018 09:15
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Moridin920 posted:That's some Council of Nicea poo poo right there because the messiah King of Israel was supposed to be a king here on Earth too so... the romans cared about jesus because they cared purely about political stability in the region so they cared when other entities saw him as a threat because of his radical and blasphemous ideology. pilate didnt think he was a threat, obviously, because he tried to let him go. the religious leaders wouldnt have it though, as their political power was tied to their status in religious hierarchy, which jesus definitely threatened by being a major challenger on the spiritual front (and he talked major poo poo about them). the romans wanted to avoid unrest and had jesus killed bc of that. so jesus was called the king of jews by those condemning him, because it (claiming a title of royalty) represented a clear threat to local political structures existent at the time; the romans basically only recognized rulers in their pocket as legitimate, and anyone else was an enemy of the state. that's why they put the sign on him, it displayed the charge for which he was being put to death. jesus, for his part, didn't dispute it because he did consider himself the spiritual king of jews as the son of god and knew it would result in his martyrdom. this is all basic, basic stuff, hardly 'council of nicea'.
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Dec 8, 2018 09:49
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Muscle Wizard posted:it was an obvious trap but its pretty clear from other parts of scripture that jesus considered divine politics and earthly politics to be two different spheres. jesus is the original proponent of separation of church and state lol. Muscle Wizard posted:this is all basic, basic stuff, hardly 'council of nicea'. well alright then which parts e: not trying to be snarky ee: I say council of Nicea because there's a lot of other people saying what Christianity is or quoting Jesus in there and poo poo tons of it is directly contradictory. Like you could read Romans as to be all "divine right of kings is good" but then Corinthians says " “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything." which is nearly anarchist. eee: Also this is all ignoring the history of the anti-Roman groups such as the Zealots who very much were about an independent kingdom from Rome? Simon the Apostle was a Zealot, probably Paul also? quote:The Zealots were a political movement in 1st-century Second Temple Judaism, which sought to incite the people of Judea Province to rebel against the Roman Empire and expel it from the Holy Land by force of arms, most notably during the First Jewish–Roman War (66–70). quote:in the year 6 CE against Quirinius' tax reform, shortly after the Roman Empire declared what had most recently been the tetrarchy of Herod Archelaus to be a Roman province, and that they "agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord." (18.1.6) (which Corinthians basically affirms in the bit I quoted) quote:the religious leaders wouldnt have it though, as their political power was tied to their status in religious hierarchy This is kinda my point actually though - you can't really separate out Jesus from secular politics and by "kingdom of heaven" his supporters very much meant a secular kingdom free from Roman rule? Moridin920 has issued a correction as of 10:30 on Dec 8, 2018 |
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Dec 8, 2018 10:07
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Moridin920 posted:well alright then which parts i think your understanding of biblical literature is fundamentally flawed, because you dont seem to know that jesus didnt actually say anything to anyone after acts. corinthians and romans are both letters from paul the apostle to his followers. theres nothing from jesus in them, just interpretation from paul. they carry biblical authority but personally i take what jesus said more seriously than what paul said. if you wanna say paul is kinda screwy, well, no argument there. im not trying to be mean but i honestly dont know where to begin in addressing what you're saying. how are the zealots being ignored?
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Dec 8, 2018 10:36
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Moridin920 posted:This is kinda my point actually though - you can't really separate out Jesus from secular politics and by "kingdom of heaven" his supporters very much meant a secular kingdom free from Roman rule? didnt see this edit. i don't see how followers of jesus wanting to be free of roman rule implies that jesus himself said that.
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Dec 8, 2018 10:38
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Muscle Wizard posted:i think your understanding of biblical literature is fundamentally flawed you're probably right Muscle Wizard posted:how are the zealots being ignored? What I'm getting at is if people very important in Jesus' organization are Zealots then I don't see how it can be possible that Jesus' followers didn't care about secular matters at all. e: Muscle Wizard posted:didnt see this edit. i don't see how followers of jesus wanting to be free of roman rule implies that jesus himself said that. Ahh okay. Well yeah ok.
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Dec 8, 2018 10:39
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Moridin920 posted:you're probably right i don't think i ever made the argument that jesus's followers don't care about secular matters. jesus himself absolutely did say that they shouldn't give a gently caress about secular stuff though.
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Dec 8, 2018 10:41
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you are killing me with these edits
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Dec 8, 2018 10:41
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The thing is that religion is effectively just cultural glue. In the end, everyone will just go quote poo poo out of context to make it sound like their religion supports their point of view.
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Dec 8, 2018 10:43
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Muscle Wizard posted:you are killing me with these edits sorry it's a bad habit
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Dec 8, 2018 10:44
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Moridin920 posted:sorry it's a bad habit well i appreciate the discussion
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Dec 8, 2018 10:47
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suck my woke dick posted:The thing is that religion is effectively just cultural glue. In the end, everyone will just go quote poo poo out of context to make it sound like their religion supports their point of view. people use all sorts of crap from the bible to justify their lovely actions, but jesus didn't actually say and do that much relative to the size of the book. what he did say was basically, treat people good, share your poo poo, and gently caress the people that would take advantage of others. this is, of course, completely incompatible with capitalism.
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Dec 8, 2018 11:24
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Muscle Wizard posted:people use all sorts of crap from the bible to justify their lovely actions, but jesus didn't actually say and do that much relative to the size of the book. what he did say was basically, treat people good, share your poo poo, and gently caress the people that would take advantage of others. this is, of course, completely incompatible with capitalism. Jesus also said that it's good to be victimized and you should not seek to better your situation because the suffering will be rewarded in heaven, that thought-crimes are equal to real crimes, and that divorce is a sin. This is, of course, completely incompatible with leftism.
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Dec 8, 2018 12:00
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i think christian socialism is pretty cool but the title of this thread is blatantly false, history shows us that Christianity is in fact insanely compatible with capitalism its a monotheist religion with a spiritual reward system so it meshes well with "keep your head down and do what the loving king says. dont worry about the real world, you'll get to do everything you want after you die"
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Dec 8, 2018 14:23
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Who What Now posted:Jesus also said that it's good to be victimized and you should not seek to better your situation because the suffering will be rewarded in heaven, that thought-crimes are equal to real crimes, and that divorce is a sin. This is, of course, completely incompatible with leftism. it's almost like a 2000 year old belief system isn't a 100% fit for a modern society
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Dec 8, 2018 15:10
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Taintrunner posted:hail Satan, though
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Dec 8, 2018 15:17
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sorry Jesus you had your chance bro, we all know you meant well
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Dec 8, 2018 15:18
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Feldegast42 posted:
Bullshit mythology of the Abrahamic religions is incompatible with bullshit philosophy of full socialism? Oh no, that's horrib... wait, why do I care again?
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Dec 8, 2018 15:24
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, which is why the left needs to push a set of morals and values that aren't the worship of wealth and power. Christianity can be a part of that.
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Christianity is a historically reactionary movement.
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Dec 8, 2018 15:26
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Muscle Wizard posted:people use all sorts of crap from the bible to justify their lovely actions, but jesus didn't actually say and do that much relative to the size of the book. what he did say was basically, treat people good, share your poo poo, and gently caress the people that would take advantage of others. this is, of course, completely incompatible with capitalism. this is ignoring two major things about jesus: his preaching is apocalyptic, everything is about an event that will come soon and sweep away current society he was crucified for trying to start a riot of course people can use a text however they wish but if you ignore these facts a bunch of his parables just straight up make no sense
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Dec 8, 2018 16:30
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I wonder how much the presence of churches in the Civil Rights movement was due to some essential element of faith as much as the fact that churches were one of the few forms of social organization open to black people in the south
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Dec 8, 2018 16:31
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Muscle Wizard posted:you are killing me with these edits edit: sad, low energy, a total waste  beautiful, flawless, much greater than you would understand
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Dec 8, 2018 17:06
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suck my woke dick posted:it's almost like a 2000 year old belief system isn't a 100% fit for a modern society Well, yeah, that's why it needs to be violently purged.
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Dec 8, 2018 18:57
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I wonder how much the presence of churches in the Civil Rights movement was due to some essential element of faith as much as the fact that churches were one of the few forms of social organization open to black people in the south The latter, African churches were literally the only place black people could congregate and speak freely without provoking a race riot
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Dec 8, 2018 19:23
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Who What Now posted:Jesus also said that it's good to be victimized and you should not seek to better your situation because the suffering will be rewarded in heaven, that thought-crimes are equal to real crimes, and that divorce is a sin. This is, of course, completely incompatible with leftism. yeah pretty much
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Dec 8, 2018 19:25
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I wonder how much the presence of churches in the Civil Rights movement was due to some essential element of faith as much as the fact that churches were one of the few forms of social organization open to black people in the south not sure if i know what you mean by essential element of faith, but i'm pretty sure it's the latter. the church is still the dominant form of social organization for black people in the south but that speaks more to its historical embeddedness and a continual lack of viable alternatives that don't result in you getting murdered
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Dec 8, 2018 19:54
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double negative posted:not sure if i know what you mean by essential element of faith, but i'm pretty sure it's the latter. the church is still the dominant form of social organization for black people in the south but that speaks more to its historical embeddedness and a continual lack of viable alternatives that don't result in you getting murdered I wonder how much longer that'll remain true as social media makes it easier to organize not only locally but also nationally or globally.
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Dec 8, 2018 20:40
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double negative posted:not sure if i know what you mean by essential element of faith, someone earlier was arguing that faith can lead to progressive action and pointed to the civil rights movement and I was basically pointing out it wasn't the faith of the church that made it a powerful tool, it was the organizing.
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Dec 8, 2018 20:49
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Jesus is good, the Sermon on The Mount is beautiful in a lot of ways, and people emulating Jesus and the New testament teachings would be a good start honestly it's the fuckres in charge with all the land who want to cherry pick old covenant poo poo who commodify faith and crystallize religion into a system of various oppression enablers
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Dec 8, 2018 21:08
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The sermon on the mount actually sucks rear end.
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Dec 8, 2018 21:18
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aside from the sex stuff*
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Dec 8, 2018 21:22
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Who What Now posted:I wonder how much longer that'll remain true as social media makes it easier to organize not only locally but also nationally or globally. social media provides a means to organize and communicate but it doesn’t substitute as an actual irl social organization or community like the church or the divine nine or something, so it might be a while. it’s really entrenched
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Dec 8, 2018 21:23
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