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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Antifa Turkeesian posted:

Meteor Man is actually pretty fun. It's a really nice cultural time capsule of the 90s.

It has a lot of heart.

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Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

Because if I tell you, you'll tell your friends, your friends are callin' me on the horn all the time, I gotta show up at shopping centers for openings and sign autographs and shit like that and it makes my life a *hell*. Okay? A living hell.


Fan of Britches

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

and more like thinking "Will and Grace did a lot to mainstream acceptance of gay marriage, but also rich gay people still hate poor gays and I don't think Black Panther is gonna stop some racist cop from shooting an unarmed black guy in the back". I've never had anyone able to explain to me how representation is going to fix the issues that are tearing America apart

No one said it's going to fix all the issues? It was never intended to???? That was a weird take, duder.


There are MASSIVE systemic racial/minority imbalances in US society in terms of wealth, political representation, education, rate of incarceration, job opportunities, wages, medical access, media representation, and so on. The different types of racial imbalances all cross over into and reinforce all the others as well, it's all horribly complex but also horribly ingrained into the culture and the history and the art of the country. Each of them needs to be addressed individually but they also have to be addressed in tandem because if you leave just one of those imbalances in place it'll just keep reinforcing all the other ones in myriad subtle and not-so-subtle ways.

Open Marriage Night
Sep 18, 2009

"Do you want to talk to a spider, Peter?"

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

The 70s was full of awesome black heroes that made it well into the mainstream and were popular for a lot of the 80s and early 90s, then they got ditched and forgotten by the next generation. Also black people still have the same wealth they did in 1968.

Please don't read this as me saying "representation doesn't matter at all" - of course it does! - and more like thinking "Will and Grace did a lot to mainstream acceptance of gay marriage, but also rich gay people still hate poor gays and I don't think Black Panther is gonna stop some racist cop from shooting an unarmed black guy in the back". I've never had anyone able to explain to me how representation is going to fix the issues that are tearing America apart - the best I get is some line about "a postive role model" when in fact it's a power fantasy. The people "represented" are still largely gorgeous richies that validate our current economic order.

Just stop.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

SomeJazzyRat posted:

Why is it a stretch that a kid would be psyched as hell to see a cool rear end superhero, who reminds them of themselves and the people around them, getting complete center stage as opposed to 7th rank in the Avengers?

That's obviously not a stretch, and not the doubtful part of the claim. Of course the child is enjoying the children's movie, but to then say something like "that's because they've for sure never seen a black hero kid before in their lives!"? I dunno man, that does seem kinda reaching, like how do we know that?

If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but I just don't see how I've misread it

Grendels Dad posted:

"Black kids aren't poor under-represented in cinema, they have a refridgerator Black Panther" is a bad take, OP.

That would be a laughably bad take, dunno where you got it from?

I don't think the boy in question has seen BP, he's only 4. Unless his parents are goons there's no reason to assume he is being deprived of African-American children's media, Disney produced or otherwise.

I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be any more black main characters because there are exactly (insert number) enough or whatever, that would obviously be dumb!

Lol like I'm not even arguing Spiderverse was a bad movie (it's uneven but ok) this hostility seems misplaced

Artelier
Jan 23, 2015




To get hung up on YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE IF THAT WAS THE FIRST BLACK HERO THE KID HAS SEEN/IDENTIFIED WITH?!?????!? is a very weird stance to take.

SomeJazzyRat
Nov 2, 2012

Hmmm...


Okay, name one other Black Superhero like Miles that someone under the age of 12 could have realistically seen.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Static Shock, but he’s not got an amazing movie on the big screen.

Regalingualius
Jan 6, 2012


Hasn’t Static been off the air for a while, though?

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012
Hello I am a person doing a thing via buttons. It's amazing what electronic singnals traveling through space can accomplish.

Makes ya think.

Purple m&ms are the best.

a 4 year old american child has almost certainly seen teen titans go, featuring cyborg.

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



Broken Cake

Dwayne McDuffy’s been dead for nine years now. Static Shock was long gone before anyone under 15 was even born.

YggiDee
Sep 12, 2007




The Static Shock cartoon is old enough to drink.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017



There's legitimate conversation to be had in how the cycle of media tends to disproportionately erase and forget previous representation and progress for minorities. And a lot of attempts at new characters fail to catch on, or are flash in the pan and quickly forgotten. Spider-verse has been argued to be basically a take on the Ultimate Universe that actually lived up to its promises of a more modern and diverse cast.


ungulateman posted:

a 4 year old american child has almost certainly seen teen titans go, featuring cyborg.

They also added Bumblebee (not the Transformers one) in recent seasons iirc. That said, both are very different characters from Miles Morales besides being young and black.

Kind of the whole thing with Miles is he's defined not only through his own actions but his relationships with his family, as well as Peter Parker and the other spider-people and his enemies. Which of course is a very specifically Spider-man thing, from the start where most superheroes were orphans and/or adults with agency, a young hero who still has family he relies on and rely on him and the struggles from that make him compelling and relatable to a younger audience.

Regalingualius
Jan 6, 2012


https://mobile.twitter.com/Sony/sta...766152928358402

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


Let’s not forget that there’s a difference between “black kid watches a show about a black superhero” and “black kid watches a movie where Spider-Man, the second most popular superhero in America, is a black kid”

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



I talked before about how Miles being caught between worlds is a huge part of what makes the film work. He's a smart kid that has a bit of imposter syndrome (lottery admission) who has interests in elements that his father is concerned about (street art/friendship with Aaron), but he's not vilified for this.

Ghost Leviathan posted:

There's legitimate conversation to be had in how the cycle of media tends to disproportionately erase and forget previous representation and progress for minorities.
Right. And all this talk of "well what does *representation* really solve?" ignores that point.

FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 16:25 on May 8, 2020

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



Broken Cake

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

Let’s not forget that there’s a difference between “black kid watches a show about a black superhero” and “black kid watches a movie where Spider-Man, the second most popular superhero in America, is a black kid”

Also the movie is good and not just poo poo out with minimal budget, and is also not framed by marketing as being for the "urban" market.

ANOTHER SCORCHER
Aug 12, 2018

"I'll call now."


Spider-Verse also uniquely engages with (American) Black Culture through its setting, style, musical choices, presentation of family, and other cultural cues that most other black heroes don't get. Even Black Panther which was widely beloved very clearly identifies the hero as African, while the (cool, but still a murderous misogynist) villain is coded as African-American.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:

Spider-Verse also uniquely engages with (American) Black Culture through its setting, style, musical choices, presentation of family, and other cultural cues that most other black heroes don't get. Even Black Panther which was widely beloved very clearly identifies the hero as African, while the (cool, but still a murderous misogynist) villain is coded as African-American.

The single most groan-worthy moment in Black Panther is when Killmonger takes over Wakanda and this is symbolized by the music taking on ~dangerous hip-hop bass beats~

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

The single most groan-worthy moment in Black Panther is when Killmonger takes over Wakanda and this is symbolized by the music taking on ~dangerous hip-hop bass beats~

Also the bit where we're meant to cheer on a white CIA guy conducting drone strikes on a black population. It was a very confusing film.

All the afro-futurism in the sets and costumes was awesome, and I'd love more films that embraced that. Noughts and Crosses dabbles a bit in that, but being a BBC production the budget was about $17 per episode.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



Blood Boils posted:

That's obviously not a stretch, and not the doubtful part of the claim. Of course the child is enjoying the children's movie, but to then say something like "that's because they've for sure never seen a black hero kid before in their lives!"? I dunno man, that does seem kinda reaching, like how do we know that?

If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but I just don't see how I've misread it


That would be a laughably bad take, dunno where you got it from?

I don't think the boy in question has seen BP, he's only 4. Unless his parents are goons there's no reason to assume he is being deprived of African-American children's media, Disney produced or otherwise.

I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be any more black main characters because there are exactly (insert number) enough or whatever, that would obviously be dumb!

Lol like I'm not even arguing Spiderverse was a bad movie (it's uneven but ok) this hostility seems misplaced

Not as the main character/lead, no. I certainly didn't until...Hammerman...and then maybe Static Shock. Black kids are token sidekicks otherwise. This includes characters like Cyborg, who with there is still a sense of just being included for diversity sake as opposed to being written as a character that is the center of focus.

I know a few Asian people who tuned into Walking Dead because having an Asian guy that actually was treated as normal due to being presented as a character that a white woman would be attracted to was so different.

I absolutely hate Black Panther but I sympathize with all of the people that just loved the major tentpole film of the season being focused around black people, too.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

SomeJazzyRat posted:

Okay, name one other Black Superhero like Miles that someone under the age of 12 could have realistically seen.

Uh, making the kid older is only gonna increase the odds, like he's never seen a Jaden Smith vehicle?? I admit I'm not familiar with the careers of these kids
https://shadowandact.com/5-child-ac...-up-next-series for example, but I would feel kinda, well weird, to assume that a black person of any age would share my ignorance of African-American leads!

In addition to all the roles mentioned by others there are a ton of adult actors like Eddie Murphy or Beyonce who make children/family friendly movies where they and their kids are the heroes

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

Let’s not forget that there’s a difference between “black kid watches a show about a black superhero” and “black kid watches a movie where Spider-Man, the second most popular superhero in America, is a black kid”

Oh for sure.

I didn't read the initial argument as being so precise with the qualifications vis a vis popularity and canonical mainstream superheroes, but perhaps I was being too literal. My bad, I'll drop it

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



Blood Boils posted:

Uh, making the kid older is only gonna increase the odds, like he's never seen a Jaden Smith vehicle?? I admit I'm not familiar with the careers of these kids
https://shadowandact.com/5-child-ac...-up-next-series for example, but I would feel kinda, well weird, to assume that a black person of any age would share my ignorance of African-American leads!

In addition to all the roles mentioned by others there are a ton of adult actors like Eddie Murphy or Beyonce who make children/family friendly movies where they and their kids are the heroes


Oh for sure.

I didn't read the initial argument as being so precise with the qualifications vis a vis popularity and canonical mainstream superheroes, but perhaps I was being too literal. My bad, I'll drop it

Eddie Murphy and Beyonce? Good lord. Are you talking about Nutty Professor as something black kids looked up to as a character?

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Blood Boils posted:

I didn't read the initial argument as being so precise with the qualifications vis a vis popularity and canonical mainstream superheroes, but perhaps I was being too literal. My bad, I'll drop it
Heh, you know there are tons of heroic figures for black kids! Like Eddie Murphy or some kids in his films I don't know the names of and the smart girl from Blackish!

Wait why is everyone acting like I'm a jackass that won't let a loving BotL derail die?! It's merely a semantic misunderstanding concordant to the classification of

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



A good explanation for those confused is that when black kids played with Star Wars toys, they were picking Luke and Han, not Lando. Transformers, Optimus, not Jazz. Next generation, its harder to even think of black sidekicks. Let's see, Batman, not Mr Terrific. Goku, not Mr. Popo (in all seriousness, black people did tend to really like Piccolo). This lasts through every generation, kids tend to cycle around the main/major protagonist and not the fourth member of the team. Miles being the main character in a kid focused thing is a HUGE deal.

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002

Don't fuckle with Shuckle(s)

Like that other Shuckle, but different.


Strom Cuzewon posted:

Also the bit where we're meant to cheer on a white CIA guy conducting drone strikes on a black population. It was a very confusing film.

All the afro-futurism in the sets and costumes was awesome, and I'd love more films that embraced that. Noughts and Crosses dabbles a bit in that, but being a BBC production the budget was about $17 per episode.

https://twitter.com/CIA/status/1099847092221165569?s=20

literally funded by the CIA

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



Broken Cake

Another reason to like Spiderverse is that it doesn't include pro-US interventionism and military recruitment propaganda (apparently including the CIA) so that it can have free access to military vehicles and equipment, unlike all those Marvel movies Disney shits out every year.

Koalas March
May 21, 2007



Darko posted:

A good explanation for those confused is that when black kids played with Star Wars toys, they were picking Luke and Han, not Lando. Transformers, Optimus, not Jazz. Next generation, its harder to even think of black sidekicks. Let's see, Batman, not Mr Terrific. Goku, not Mr. Popo (in all seriousness, black people did tend to really like Piccolo). This lasts through every generation, kids tend to cycle around the main/major protagonist and not the fourth member of the team. Miles being the main character in a kid focused thing is a HUGE deal.

Really this. Also yeah Piccolo and Vegeta really resonated with black kids ime.

Movies about and starring white folks are pumped out on the regular and the idea that someone could point to some side characters and less than a handful of other movies and claim that's enough is infuriating.


To bring it back to Spider verse: There's another level where black characters are only very rarely allowed to be love interests. Candice Patton (Iris West, The Flash tv show) is still going to panels and having to tell people that Iris is there to stay and stop being racist TO HER FACE about interracial relationships and Grant Gustin (Barry Allen) made an Instagram video a few months ago to tell people to stop being so loving racist about it, seeing as this has been going on for five years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAhXKBvFwvk

ANOTHER SCORCHER
Aug 12, 2018

"I'll call now."


Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

The single most groan-worthy moment in Black Panther is when Killmonger takes over Wakanda and this is symbolized by the music taking on ~dangerous hip-hop bass beats~

KM also wears the panther suit with gold bling on it that T’Challa passed over for being too ostentatious. And has dreads in comparison to T’Challa’s cropped hairstyle. And is loud and aggressive in comparison with this regal and stoic cousin. A lot could be said about it.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017



Darko posted:

Not as the main character/lead, no. I certainly didn't until...Hammerman...and then maybe Static Shock. Black kids are token sidekicks otherwise. This includes characters like Cyborg, who with there is still a sense of just being included for diversity sake as opposed to being written as a character that is the center of focus.

Do you mean in Justice League? Because in Teen Titans he is definitely a main character and has a lot of focus episodes, including one arc specifically around him starting when he goes undercover in the villain school. He's basically the team's jock and nerd.

Also from all I've seen, Dragon Ball Z is mad popular with black guys in general. Killmonger's outfit in Black Panther is actually designed as a nod to Vegeta iirc. The anime art style is notoriously ambiguous with racial features, and the Saiyans in-universe are a tiny minority that's explicitly the target of racism from at least one galactic superpower. (albeit one who was using them as eager weapons of genocide before genociding them himself, but still)

Does remind me of a post I once read with a black person who as a kid really identified with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and it brings up some more interesting questions about how having explicitly non-human protagonists can actually make them easier to identify with, especially with the Turtles being a close-knit family that's explicitly mixed cultural influences, given they have a Japanese rat adoptive father, Italian names and raised in American culture.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



Ghost Leviathan posted:

Do you mean in Justice League? Because in Teen Titans he is definitely a main character and has a lot of focus episodes, including one arc specifically around him starting when he goes undercover in the villain school. He's basically the team's jock and nerd.

Also from all I've seen, Dragon Ball Z is mad popular with black guys in general. Killmonger's outfit in Black Panther is actually designed as a nod to Vegeta iirc. The anime art style is notoriously ambiguous with racial features, and the Saiyans in-universe are a tiny minority that's explicitly the target of racism from at least one galactic superpower. (albeit one who was using them as eager weapons of genocide before genociding them himself, but still)

Does remind me of a post I once read with a black person who as a kid really identified with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and it brings up some more interesting questions about how having explicitly non-human protagonists can actually make them easier to identify with, especially with the Turtles being a close-knit family that's explicitly mixed cultural influences, given they have a Japanese rat adoptive father, Italian names and raised in American culture.

In Dragon Ball, black people identify most with the green guy as a whole, secondarily, and still center around main character Goku who, while anime-ambiguous, is certainly not brown in any way. This spreads to stuff like Naruto and other anime as well, which became a major kid-focus but don't really have any black characters at all.

In Teen Titans, Robin is most definitely the main character, and is such in Go! as well. I mean, the Go! movie focuses almost entirely around Robin, the original show had major season arcs either focused on Robin - Slade or Raven - Trigon with Cyborg having a few episodes to himself but never a major focus overall. Justice League has the 4th or 5th most focused on person on the team as black. Batman Beyond has a black female sidekick that shows up every once in a while. X-Men had Storm, who had like 2 whole focused episodes (compare to Wolverine, Jean, Cyclops). Spider-man had, uh, I have no idea, Blade wasn't even black on there.

This is spread to movies as well. Black people didn't have starring action family roles unless they happened to be a rapper/comedian first (aka Will Smith), otherwise, they were pretty much sidekicks until Dwayne The Rock Johnson. Even in PG-13/R rated films that kids would care about and that got toylines, sidekicks. There is a large gap in minority lead representation in general, but particularly so when it comes to what gets filtered down to black kids. That's also why black cosplay and Halloween were SUPER hard before everyone could be Black Panther. Nobody wanted to be Bishop or Cyborg, they wanted to be Wolverine or Batman.

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



Broken Cake

I think Bishop was kind of cool. Especially on the cartoon with that signature kind of bluesy slide guitar and harmonica musical theme while he yelled at people about the future. Although he was not actually at any point a member of the X-Men, so point taken I guess.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017



You must have missed the later arc (don't blame you since Cartoon Network hated that show) where Cyborg has his own nemesis in Brother Blood who goes to the point of imitating Cyborg trying to beat him. Starfire's the one who didn't really get an arc to herself. Not much argument on the rest, but I feel Cyborg gets a bad rap for basically made up reasons despite being a pretty awesome, multi-faceted character with a neat and distinctive visual design. (I recall one article that called him 'castrated'; he's disabled, and one of his focus episodes is about his personal angst in not being able to be an athlete anymore)

Feels like another problem with media that does make legitimate progressive strides is that even people who aren't chud-adjacent try to tear it down for poorly defined reasons, (the real one usually being clout-chasing) to the point of actively contradicting themselves, making poo poo up and usually being very offensive in other ways in the process, and a lot of people automatically go along with it without actually examining what they're agreeing with.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

Darko posted:

Eddie Murphy and Beyonce? Good lord. Are you talking about Nutty Professor as something black kids looked up to as a character?

I was actually thinking dr Dolittle :p and no if that was my argument I would have just said so.

I actually cut out less famous names and a whole statement how it wasn't an exhaustive list but then I thought, no that should go without saying

And to think I was worried I was the one reading things too literally, egg on my face!

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



Blood Boils posted:

I was actually thinking dr Dolittle :p and no if that was my argument I would have just said so.

I actually cut out less famous names and a whole statement how it wasn't an exhaustive list but then I thought, no that should go without saying

And to think I was worried I was the one reading things too literally, egg on my face!

The issue is that your list pretty much stops where you did and you were making a point without realizing it. You have dudes who used to be comedians and dudes who used to be rappers as black people who became headlining stars for the most part, and only one really led movies that would reach to kids (Will Smith). There aren't major video games modeled after Eddie Murphy or Beyonce movies, there's no Dreamgirls: the toy run.

waah
Jun 20, 2011

I AM THE WORST FANTASY FOOTBALL PLAYER IN TFFNFCS.





Look black people had M.A.N.T.I.S. as a super hero so why are you all bitching.

Also Piccolo and Vegeta own because they both are always talking mad poo poo, and if you grew up riding the bus and playing the dozens, you know talking poo poo is mort important than winning.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Blood Boils posted:

I was actually thinking dr Dolittle :p and no if that was my argument I would have just said so.


Threadban him plz.

waah posted:

Also Piccolo and Vegeta own because they both are always talking mad poo poo
Spanish dubs kept this and it was awesome.

Papercut
Aug 24, 2005

The quickest substitution in the history of the NBA

Blood Boils posted:

I was actually thinking dr Dolittle :p and no if that was my argument I would have just said so.

I actually cut out less famous names and a whole statement how it wasn't an exhaustive list but then I thought, no that should go without saying

And to think I was worried I was the one reading things too literally, egg on my face!

How are you still doubling down on this? You couldn't even come up with more than a few black leads, most of whom weren't even super heroes, and then just tossed your hands up and said well I'm sure there are more who black people would know about. All to try to make some weird point that a black spiderman wouldn't be that special to a black 4-year-old.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017



waah posted:

Look black people had M.A.N.T.I.S. as a super hero so why are you all bitching.

Also Piccolo and Vegeta own because they both are always talking mad poo poo, and if you grew up riding the bus and playing the dozens, you know talking poo poo is mort important than winning.

Also they're better dads than Goku.

mycot
Oct 23, 2014


Hell Gem

Blood Boils posted:

I was actually thinking dr Dolittle :p

You can't be real.

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Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer

mycot posted:

You can't be real.

It's no Norbit.

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