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BravestOfTheLamps posted:If you want to define tragedy broadly as a character suffering a reversal of fortune, there's still no tragedy to Miles Morales. Miles starts out miserable, things get worse for no fault of his own, but then he's better off than he started. Thus there's no tragic arc. Things working out happily is not tragic. At the end of the movie Miles has powers (but one of the challenges posed by the movie is "is it right to put this kind of responsibility on a teenager, probably not"), someone he cares about deeply is dead, and he has a secret to keep from his parents on top of protecting his identity because he's seen first hand (and heard plenty of examples about) how dangerous it can be when the wires cross between Spidey life and civilian life. That the movie ends on a positive, somewhat triumphant note is not a negation of various tragic occurrences. If you look at it from the angle of: - Aaron is directly responsible for Miles getting spider powers. Miles knows this, even if it never comes up between them. Miles would never be Spider-man if Aaron hadn't taken him into the tunnels -> if Miles is never Spider-man then Aaron would never have hesitated in taking out a Spider-person and therefore had no reason to be shot by Fisk (destruction of the universe notwithstanding). - Miles looks up to Aaron and relates to him in a way that (at the start of the movie) he doesn't with his father. - Aaron (as Prowler) is directly involved in the death of Peter Parker and is more than willing to carry out further violence on Kingpin's orders. - Mile's inability to hold his own when prompted by the other Spiders causes him to doubt himself, flee, and bring down the Sinister...Five (?) on the Spider gang - Mile's inability to fight off his uncle causes him to have to reveal his identity to save himself, and thereby dooms Aaron In the final fight with Kingpin, Miles finds inspiration in his father's encouragement, even though he thinks that his father hates Spider-man and possibly blames Spider-man for Aaron's death (representing a renegotiation of his relationship with an authoritative, previously antagonistic figure, that affirms his ability as himself and as Spider-man) . He draws on the strength of Aaron's memory and guidance to embrace his powers, put Kingpin down, and finish the mission (representing a reconciliation of the conflict with who his uncle was - someone that he loved who didn't deserve to die but could still be a role model for him even though in all likelihood he was a very bad guy working for even worse people). Like Spider-noir says, it's a heavy origin story. I don't know if it rises to the level of Greek tragedy, but it certainly hit the right "Spider-man is a hero, suffers for it, and gets back up anyway" buttons for me. Anyway, glad this lived up to the hype. If they're really going to do sequels it'll be interested to where they take the story and how they use the newness of the universe to do cool unexpected stuff. I loved the take on Doc Ock here, caught me completely offguard but it absolutely ruled, as did the little dialogue interaction between Ock and Aunt May . Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Dec 31, 2018 |
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Dec 31, 2018 02:43
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Inspector Gesicht posted:Does anyone have that comic cover of Aunt May marrying Doc Ock, and the Spiderverse equivalent? I saw it on twitter but couldn't find it again, maybe the artist deleted it.
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Mar 3, 2019 20:58
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The_Doctor posted:I love Aaron’s quiet ‘No no no no’ as everything suddenly unravels right in front of him. Mahershala Ali did a hell of a lot with very little time as Aaron. All the voice actors were great, but yeah that "no no no no no" just pushed the tragedy of the entire scenario over the edge. Probably been mentioned already, but I loved all the villain designs. I hope they bring back Doc Ock at least.
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Mar 7, 2019 20:23
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wdarkk posted:I was discussing superhero movies the other day at a party, and my host mentioned that he really liked what he saw of Spider-Verse, but he'd had to leave because it was too intense for his 4-5 year old daughter (although some of her peers were fine with it). He said he's hoping to try it again later. I can see that. A movie where the main hero gets capped in the first 10 minutes is pretty intense, plus the villain designs are legitimately scary. I tense up every time Prowler is on screen and I'm a veteran in my mid 30s. Kids movies can be weirdly jarring and intense and you never quite know how any given kid will react. A friend of mine took their kids to see the first Wreck it Ralph - one kid was fine, the other one had nightmares about the the Turbo-alien bug abomination for weeks.
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May 8, 2019 00:55
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Make an entire Spider-man movie but let that lady play every role. Especially J.J.J. The_Doctor posted:Spider-verse makes me tear up at multiple points. There’s something in its DNA that just makes me so emotional about Miles and his journey. It’s amazing. :’) There are so many heartfelt moments, even just in passing that the entire movie tugs on your heartstrings even while it's leaving you astonished.
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May 21, 2019 03:51
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waah posted:Nah, gimme more Gwen. I'd love to see their arc of movies be Miles and Gwen as just platonic friends since they have pretty good chemistry as friends and a good male/female non-romantic friendship isn't something you see often in movies. The movie made it pretty clear that their relationship was strictly platonic, which felt great and right. I'm not sure where they would've even found the time to shoehorn in a romance for one thing, and having Gwen as an obviously much more experienced, much more saavy Spider-person fall for Miles in the course of a handful of interactions over a week? 10 days? would've felt super forced. The movie built it up to be a big deal that part of Miles becoming Spider-man was breaking down the various barriers that the other Spider-people had (at least Pete B. Parker and Gwen) and helping them move on as part of him finding his own footing/identity. He earned Gwen's respect and got to be her friend, which is a GREAT message to send to young men and women. Validating platonic relationships, especially between men and women, as important, necessary, rewarding, and requiring mutual effort is something that's even rarer than interracial pairings. Of course, all that being said, they do end up together in the comics in some alternate timeline IIRC. So I would expect some of that to bleed into whatever sequels we get, but I hope they slow roll it and give us some time to see them develop as friends, along with fleshing out their relationships outside of Spider-people interactions. A lot of what sold the movie was that Mile's family and friendships felt real and lived in, ditto for what little we saw of the other Spider-people.
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May 22, 2019 04:43
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Darko posted:I'd disagree. White male + whatever exists a lot because of exoticism and imperialism, but black/Asian male + white woman is even rarer than that, I'd say. I don't think this is true anymore. I can think of like, 10 interracial couples on TV right now, in addition to whatever shows up in movies. Minority dude + WW is a pretty safe pairing as far as injecting representation/diversity in media right now, even though you get a lot of grognards on social media complaining about a Cheerio's commercial forcing miscegenation down their throats. It's not the 90's anymore where someone like Denzel Washington specifically avoided doing romantic scenes with white co-stars in order to reduce the risk of controversy. Not saying that media has reached the pinnacle of inclusion and representation or that it shouldn't be criticized but there's a lot out there. Anyway, I like the trend of there being space for relationships in media to be fluid and winding instead of just going straight from meet-cute to forever in love or whatever. If the thing about the women director's influence pushing that in Spider-verse is true then it just goes to show how much need there is for diversity and inclusion behind the scenes as much as in the finished product. Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 20:13 on May 22, 2019 |
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May 22, 2019 20:10
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dantheman650 posted:I checked this out on Netflix just now and loved it. I have one lingering strange thought/question though. What was Uncle Aaron’s motivation to be the Prowler? I felt like the movie took the time to show us he was basically an all right guy and his death was made less meaningful because we don’t know why he was helping Fisk. Was he just an evil dude and Miles’ innocence prevented him from seeing it? Was he a good dude compromised by something? Revenge? Grief? Was he being threatened? It just felt weirdly empty when it should have been a powerful moment. It's a pretty common trope in depictions of Black families that you have (at least) one kid that goes straight (joins the military, becomes a cop, goes into politics, etc) as a way to try to pull themselves up and shake whatever stigma comes with growing up in a poor, rough area and one kid that goes the route of crime (or at least behavior that in excessively criminalized due to racism) in order to get the "good life" they were denied and the tension comes from how those characters play off each other in their pursuits of similar ends while also unable to recognize the similarities in their distinct worldviews. Jeff and Aaron both respect each other, even if they don't necessarily understand why the other made the choices they made. They both love Miles, they both want to provide for their families in their own way, they both are dedicated to their vocations to the point of extremism despite the risk to themselves (we see more of this in Aaron's case, but Jeff running towards the exploding universe shatter machine instead of, you know, helping people evac or even responding to his radio strikes me as the same impulse). They both worry that the lessons the other is teaching to Miles are failing to properly prepare him to fulfill his potential, or even be content with his life. Aaron's motivation is that he understands the law and the way the world works, but probably feels that he can never really succeed on those terms. So he goes from whatever low-level nuisance stuff he and Jeff used to do, to something more serious, at some point gets the Prowler gear and starts taking jobs for Kingpin, enabling him to live on his own terms and live the lifestyle he wants. If people get hurt along the way, well, that's just how the world works. He was a bad guy, but he didn't strike me as "evil". He just made choices that took him down the path from random kid boosting cars or whatever to being the Prowler, and he has to live with that. Part of what makes Prowler work so well IMO is that up until "that scene", he's not conflicted. He never hesitates when Fisk orders him to kill someone, shows no remorse about chasing down and threatening what is obviously a child, etc. When he finally is put in a situation where there's an internal conflict, we can see him taking stock of everything that he has ever done and how it brought him to that point and being forced to break all the rules that those choices would've taught him were unbreakable if he wanted to keep what he'd earned. I think leaving his backstory vague works in the context of the movie being about Miles having to make choices and proactively go towards something. Aaron is one pole, Jeff is another, Peter A is one, Peter B is one, etc. He has to take his perceptions of those people and what their lives mean and the ramifications of the choices they made and figure out how to make his own choices and live with them. That's the lesson. It's not about pegging any one person as evil or irredeemable. Sleeveless posted:My headcanon is that the kind of black household that would create an authoritarian cop despite living in and presumably growing up in a lower class New York family was also super conservative in other ways and Aaron being estranged from Jefferson is because the family rejected him due to being gay, queer, or otherwise not traditionally cishet enough for them to accept him. Being rejected and feeling outside of society made it that much easier for him to fall into a crowd of baddies who were living that way for their own ends and made him feel less obligation to live under the laws and standards of the society that had rejected him. Aaron is even conspicuously shown without a love interest or partner and Prowler's entire getup has a bright purple motif and is generally more showy and flamboyant with its fluttering cape and huge collar and long claws and fluid exaggerated movements compared to how relatively simple and sleek the other villains and heroes are, you could totally take it as some sort of coding if you wanted to. I'm all for reading some queer subtext into the movie but this is....a lot.
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Jul 2, 2019 04:01
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Vakal posted:The Michelin Man style arms was a nice touch as well. The way the arms pulsated and throbbed and what not made me wonder if her arms conferred some kind of physiological bonus in a way that other Doc Ocks wouldn't have, since Liv took a shitload of damage from various Spider-people throughout the movie and generally bounced back pretty quick each time up until the big battle. She got three-hit combo'd and then just shook it off! Just another example of great design and great characterization that provokes you to think about the movie more deeply. Also having her voiced by Kathryn Hahn was just *chef kissing fingers meme*.
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Jul 6, 2019 02:42
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Blood Boils posted:Going by those links provided, it reads more to me that he expressed skepticism of the claim that a black 4 year old would have never seen a movie starring an African American child. Yeah no. I think representation politics are pretty meh but even I will admit that Miles Morales being the star of the movie is a huge loving deal for young Black kids (and even other minority children) who rarely get to see themselves and someone near their age portrayed not only as the hero, but as someone with complex feelings who is allowed to make mistakes and still succeed. I recall that situation with BotL and it was gross on every level. Why do you feel the need to defend any aspect of his argument?
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May 7, 2020 05:04
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CelticPredator posted:So for toy people, a while back Young Rich toys made a bootleg Miles figure. It's pretty dope actually. Def a good hold over before the Hot Toys comes out next year. Wow this is great. Any chance of the official product looking this good while also being somewhat affordable?
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Nov 13, 2020 15:11
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The MSJ posted:This is more about the recent game but I cannot stop laughing, but also cringing. https://twitter.com/thepeoplevsJuju/status/1324737621835321344
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Nov 16, 2020 16:35
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Magitek posted:lol some editor signed off on this The editor actually tried to defend it on Twitter - I can't find the post now but basically the defense was "well actually the reviewer is Black, therefore it's okay for them to talk about Black teenagers in embarrassingly pathological ways". Had they just said "Miles is psyched to be a superhero" or w/e it would've been fine.
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Nov 17, 2020 02:22
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The next MCU Spider-Man movie seems to be pretty Peter focused but I'd love to see this idea included somehow. https://twitter.com/marcbernardin/status/1342245852975300608?s=19
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Dec 25, 2020 02:10
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Yvonmukluk posted:https://twitter.com/mukumuks/status/1675140714374762496?t=UNBbnkw8jz9by0Vu9pUrMQ&s=19 Yeah the score was absolutely amazing, feels like so many subtle aspects layered in that get stuck in your head and also amplify the emotional notes of the whole movie. Caught a matinee over the weekend, still somewhat astounded that this lived up to the hype AND had a ton of surprises even thought it seemed like the marketing gave away a lot. Feel like I need to see it a couple more times to really pick up on everything. Regarding the sequel - seems pretty clear that Miles's spider-powers being derived from a bite from an interdimensional spider is going to factor pretty heavily into how Spot gets defeated. Some kind of powered up venom strike while glitching, or just getting closed enough to Spot to drain him/cut off his connection to the multiverse. Of course that is so straightforward that they might avoid it just because, but there was so much foreshadowing can't imagine it doesn't factor in to the big win/conclusion somehow.
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Jul 3, 2023 22:17
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The_Doctor posted:Gwen’s a terrible person because she’s clearly doing it/bringing up Hobie to get a rise out of Miles. Yeah if I have one nitpick with the movie is that Hobie is a little too passive/accepting, in part because narratively they need him to be the chill mentor to Miles that shows him how to get out of a jam and be a supportive ally in the overall drama after everything goes to poo poo with Spider Society. I get why to some extent and maybe if it was just the once that would've been fine but they do it twice , because they also need Hobie to play sort of a Jiminy Cricket role to Gwen by creating opportunities for the audience to see that she is inwardly conflicted (i.e. Hobie asks Gwen if she told Miles everything, knowing that she probably hasn't, and doesn't press it when she gets shifty). That said, it feels a little incongruent for Hobie to be so against what Miguel is about that he is the ONLY spider-person to not take part in the big chase, yet he still takes proactive steps to make sure Gwen can lead the rescue for Miles in part 2. Gwen takes part in the big chase, clearly trying to delay/catch Miles so that she can convince him to accept the "canon" willingly rather than be detained by Miguel. It isn't until after the big showdown that she is actively opposed to Miguel's vision. I know there's an argument that all of that makes sense because Hobie is just so anti-authority that he immediately saw through Miguel's facade or has gotten to know Gwen so well that he knew she would eventually end up making the right choices, but I don't think that nullifies all the other stuff. Some of the underpinning themes of the movie are clearly guilt and trauma response and self-imposed burdens in an attempt to assert (false) control. In particular, the ramifications of people getting trapped into shaping their entire identity or worldview around traumatic experiences. Miguel had to make his own sacrifices to be Spider-man, tried to buck the canon, and in doing so (as far as he knows) caused the destruction of an entire world. He has completely bought into the circular logic of "I made a sacrifice and I can't stand the idea that it could've gone differently or that it was the result of things beyond my control, so therefore this larger rationale has to be the reason for my sacrifice and now I have to make sure others make the same sacrifice in service of that rationale, no matter how different their circumstances are or what other possibilities might exist". It is the same argument you hear from anyone who paid off their student loans and now opposes student loan debt relief - if they could do it or at least survive it then there must be some intrinsic value to that experience that is worth preserving, no matter how much harm it does to them or others, because otherwise what will they have to hold onto as a rationale for their identity, beliefs, etc. Miles lost both his world's Spider-man and his own uncle, and then refuses to accept losing his father as yet another "sacrifice" that comes with the mantle. He (and Hobie and probably Pavtr) are the only Spider-people to believe that maybe there isn't one way to be Spider-man and that the canon doesn't have to shape their lives or require a tradeoff between having relationships or personal life as themselves and saving the city/world/multiverse as Spider-man. Miles and Pavtr both say the same thing - I can do both (save the world and save my friends/family). Eventually Gwen gets there too, but even that is complicated in her case. Gwen lost her world's Peter Parker, knows that her own father is likely a target of the canon, and on top of that clearly worries enough about the fate that the canon spins out for any Gwen Stacy who gets too close to a Spider-man (at least the Peter Parker ones) that she won't get romantically entangled with Miles. A huge existential mindfuck in of itself. Beyond that, she and Peter B. betray Miles because they have internalized the belief that one person's sacrifice is a small price to pay for the safety and protection of the many, and that if you are a Spider-person who is gifted with great power and great responsibility then that obligates you to make as many sacrifices as it takes no matter what it does to you or your family or your ability to connect with other people. That raises one other nitpick, which is that I wish they would've done more with Jessica Drew and Peter B. Parker, as Spider-people who have (in my opinion) broken the canon by becoming parents. What does Peter B. think about the idea of Spider-man as being defined by sacrifice now that he has a daughter with Spider-powers who will likely become a superhero when she grows up? How does that conversation go when he is trying to explain to Mayday why she has to let someone she cares about die (which might include himself one day) and she gives him the same argument as Miles? Did Jessica Drew tell her husband that by being with her that he might be putting a target on his back, or their child's? Not in terms of risk from some supervillian, but literally marked by fate or destiny to die so that she can save other people. From the way she rubbed her belly during Miguel's speech about the canon I can't help but think her husband is probably a cop. Does Miguel's algorithmic projection of the Spider-verse include predictions about what happens to Spider-parents or Spider-children in terms of making sacrifices? I think Jessica Drew and Peter B. Parker are maybe the most interesting for those reasons (acknowledging that I am biased because I am a parent), and the questions their existence/actions provoke with regards to the bigger ethos and cultural influence of Spider-man. Going to quote a bit of a review of No Way Home to clarify what I mean a little bit: [url posted:https://letterboxd.com/eatdrinkdeath/film/spider-man-no-way-home/[/url]] Obviously they've moved away from the vision of Spider-man as an eternal mopey sad-sack, can't get ahead loser but the core bits about sacrifice, responsibility, fear, etc are still all over the modern stories and arcs. Introducing Miles Morales and Gwen Stacy is clearly meant to complicate the idea of who wears the mask and who has what it takes to be Spider-man and all that. But what does a Spider-man not defined by sacrifice look like? I expect they will only answer that partially in Part 2 but even so that's a huge swing for a kid's movie to take and I admire the effort despite any nitpicks (which are super minor and honestly will not stop me from watching this movie 100 times). Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Aug 12, 2023 |
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Aug 12, 2023 20:53
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:One thing sort of bothers me while rewatching. If Miles doesn't know about the significance of the canon events then he will obviously try to stop it - as evidenced by his actions in the Spider-Man India universe - and if it is his father he will definitely drop everything else to intervene. From Miguel's perspective the best case is Miles' dad dies anyway, worst case is Miles get himself killed and now there are two universes without a Spider-Man, plus powered up Spot still on the lose. Too many things could go wrong to just let Miles run free. The point of revealing the information wasn't to actually give Miles any additional agency, the whole point was to rationalize the course of action that Miguel wanted to take anyway, especially given that he already saw Miles as an aberration and the reason why he had such a burden in managing the Spider-verse already.
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Aug 28, 2023 03:42
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The venom convenience store lady cameo did nothing for me because I haven't seen those movies, but I thought the Don Glover one was a nice nod to the Sony/Marvel stuff without being too hamfisted and it reinforced that Miles' narrative wasn't some one off thing in the bigger spider-verse. That said I could see how they could be off-putting to some people. Different strokes and all that. The archival footage stuff seemed fine? I barely noticed it in the midst of the big confrontration/intervention given the weight of everything else happening in those scenes.
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Oct 1, 2023 15:52
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