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Yeah, you'll have to pry Frigid Apparition from my cold dead rat hands.
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Dec 21, 2018 17:32
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The proposed changes to starting items are good, though I think there's a case to be made to keep the Brute's minor healing potion and buy him a stamina pot at L3, though the Cragheart has a little healing to offer. A few general party tactical notes: The guards have ATK 2, but that means their potential damage range is between 0 and 5 hp of damage. The Mindthief has 6 hp at full health. Do not underestimate the lethality of these enemies. (Also, remember you can lose a card for the rest of the scenario instead of taking damage.) The Brute will want to be up close, while the Mindthief wants to dart in and out and the Cragheart has options. Do not undervalue the different ways of control available to these characters. The Mindthief has reusable stuns, for example, while the Brute has a disarm and the Cragheart immobilize. The initial action economy is not in your favor. The Cragheart has beefy hp and can afford to steal some focus from the Brute. Coordinating initiative will be useful to spread focus and protect the Mindthief, although I'm unsure with turns this frequent whether you'll have the time to pull off any finesses. Some procedural matters for That Italian Guy to think about: 1. Please provide monster stats for the whole scenario prior to the start. It's impossible to select cards properly without knowing them and they are known at set-up. That means all monsters that will appear, not just the monsters in the first room. 2. Think about what players should know about the map. There's a lengthy discussion in the Gloomhaven Games thread about what you set up at the start of the game; I was convinced by the argument that, except in a few specific scenarios that clearly indicate otherwise, you set up all the map tiles (A3a, I2b, etc) at the start. Arguably, there's precedent for setting up terrain at start, too, and only withholding the monsters until you enter a new room. Knowing how much real estate a given scenario has matters for initial card selection, especially later in the game. 3. Players must know what the scenario objective is before selecting cards. A few scenarios demand entirely different card selections and would be very frustrating to play without that knowledge. 4. I have my doubts about not having a two stage system where players put down their cards, then see what the monster actions are and decide what to do. The Mindthief has 6 hp and can make multiple attacks in a round. There's a card in one of the monster action decks in this scenario that will nearly kill the Mindthief on his turn if he executes a multi-attack focused on a guard enemy like the six in this first room. Your current system all but demands that players know all the cards in the action decks and give you contingencies based upon each set of significant variations, while punishing them severely if the wrong card comes up. This problem is only going to get worse as the campaign progresses.
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Dec 21, 2018 17:33
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Yeah, one of the biggest issues people have in scenario 1 is they immediately move up and engage 6 guards only to be swarmed and severely punished. A very important tactic to learn is to use your knowledge of enemy threat ranges to avoid damage. Since enemy cards flip before you take your turn, you can determine what the monster's turns will look like and play accordingly. For starting hexes, I would like to start in one of the "back" hexes, i3 or i5, and I think we should huddle up on one side of the starting area to minimize the number of guards that can reach us if they draw a move +0 or move-1, so hexes g3/i3/h2 or g5/i5/h6. If it starts to get troublesome with player turns, I would be okay as a volunteer being held to two responses a day: the first being cards+initiative, and second being my turn. Honestly, I'll probably have my next turn cards already in mind when I take my current turn, so I could provide both of them at the same time. Reik fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Dec 21, 2018 |
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Dec 21, 2018 17:44
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Regarding the current system for orders... it's a bit of an experiment to expedite gameplay, but I too foresee a two days update cycle (with an initial card commit, followed by an updated plan once the monster cards are revealed as well) in case this doesn't work out. Map info: revealing everything ruins a bit of mistique, but I agree it allows for more informed decisions. If the thread is up for it, we can go in knowing the room layout (but not their specific content) plus the full creature list and abilities. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Dec 21, 2018 |
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Dec 21, 2018 17:45
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In our personal game I lay out the rooms ahead of time but don't populate them with monsters, obstacles, or traps until the door is opened. I think that's a good compromise between being able to plan for the scenario and keeping the mystique. I tell my players which monsters will be in the scenario but I don't tell them what those monsters can do unless we've fought them before; again, a compromise solution. I do agree that the scenario objective absolutely needs to be revealed at the start. There are some scenarios which strictly require that the players take certain types of cards which they might not otherwise take and they need to know that. Not this one, they kept the goal simple for scenario 1, but down the line the goals can get really varied and can dramatically change which cards the players want to bring.
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Dec 21, 2018 17:53
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Zurai posted:In our personal game I lay out the rooms ahead of time but don't populate them with monsters, obstacles, or traps until the door is opened. I think that's a good compromise between being able to plan for the scenario and keeping the mystique. I tell my players which monsters will be in the scenario but I don't tell them what those monsters can do unless we've fought them before; again, a compromise solution. I like this solution and I'll implement it on the next update. Edit: the lack of scenario objective and stats for the monsters in the starting room is, ofc a goof on my end. The stats have been provided above; the goal for this initial scenario is simple: KILL ALL ENEMIES 
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Dec 21, 2018 18:04
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I want to be in the back hex that the Mindthief isn't in.
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Dec 21, 2018 18:30
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Some Numbers posted:I want to be in the back hex that the Mindthief isn't in. Oo, i3 + h4 + i5 would be a good 3-man starting position, unless the guards get a Move +1 only 4 of them will be withing range.
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Dec 21, 2018 18:41
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Actually, I can take a hit better than you can, so maybe I should be in H2 and Brute can be in G3. Brute, your thoughts?
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Dec 21, 2018 18:46
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Some Numbers posted:Actually, I can take a hit better than you can, so maybe I should be in H2 and Brute can be in G3. Sounds good to me! I'm trying to decide how I want to start.
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Dec 21, 2018 19:04
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Once all orders for the round are in, we'll try and see how the current system for orders works out; in my experience the game is balanced around fully utilizing your resources (especially at the beginning, I would say) so if we feel this system is not sustainable (or simply not fun to play with), we'll move to the other potential systen suggested in the Trad Games thread before the start of the LP - that is also more closely similar to the game when played irl, even if the update speed would be halved.
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Dec 22, 2018 00:06
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This is the start of my 3 and 1/2 day weekend. I would have everything in soon
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Dec 22, 2018 00:35
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I'm on a three day weekend too. I will be playing board games for a lot of tomorrow, but I should be able to at least program my cards.
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Dec 22, 2018 02:05
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I have not received orders from SalTheBard yet; once those are in, I'll see how much of the actual decisions I have to make for the players with the current system and decide if we are to move to a 2step round. Gloomhaven is a game about making meaningful decisions and smart resources management and I feel like it would be unfun for the players if I end up being the one making those choices instead of them.
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Dec 22, 2018 09:00
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Sorry working on it now!
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Dec 22, 2018 09:06
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SalTheBard posted:Sorry working on it now! No worries, it's cool  got orders from everyone, I'll start on the update and, if this first round shows what I was talking about in my previous post, we'll switch the system around for the next ones.In my experience round1 of the Black Barrow is a bit of a hit and miss no matter what even in the TT game (it may work fine or both the heroes and the enemies may stand around without doing anything) so it was probably the best place to start the current order system.
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Dec 22, 2018 09:15
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Black Barrow, Update 2 EDIT: if you have any kind of feedback on the LP (especially on anything I could improve...is the update cycle too fast? Are the images and the battle log understandable?) please let me know! First thing first we're going to save that pupper! (or die trying) Road Event 12 posted: Rocky must be allergic to dogs, and Next, our starting item choices, per popular opinion are going to be the following: Mindthief: Cloak of Invisibility (Item 005), Minor Stamina Potion (Item 013) Cragheart: Boots of Striding (Item 001), Minor Stamina Potion (Item 013) Brute: Boots of Striding (Item 001), Minor Stamina Potion (Item 013) Then, let's have some more information about the Black Barrow itself. This is the full map layout (I'm visiting my parents's place for the holydays and their computer is...not very high end. That's the reason if some of the images from TTS look badly in need of some anti-aliasing!):  In this scenario we'll be facing the following creatures: Bandit Guards (elite stats) HP 5 (9) Move 2 (2) Atk 2 (3) Range - Special: None Bandit Archers (elite stats) HP 4 (6) Move 2 (2) Atk 2 (3) Range 3 (3) Special: None Living Bones  (elite stats)HP 5 (6) Move 2 (4) Atk 1 (2) Range - Special: TARGET2 (TARGET2) But for the time being, our heroes are locked in combat with a bunch of Bandit Guards:  PLAYER'S OVERVIEW All the decks the players have chosen are available as a (mobile friendly) spreadsheet in separate tabs. The cards that have been selected for the current round are marked in yellow. Discarded cards will be marked in light red, while lost cards will be marked in deep red. Cards in the active slot will be marked in green in turns following the one they are played in. Available items are also shown there. Bullwinkle the Brute leads with initiative 54. He'll use Leaping Cleave (top) and Trample (using bottom for a move 2). code:code:code:All the players are going slow in this first round, so the Guards have initiative, with 50. There is no Dungeon Master or competing player in Gloomhaven: creatures act according to an AI flowchart and their actions are resolved by following it. Each creature of a given type follows the same ability card and act at the same initiative; all Elite creatures of a group act first, then all normal monsters do; multiple creatures in the same group act in order of standee, from lower to higher. Creatures only attempt an action (IE: move, attack, etc) if it's present on their ability card for that round. An important part of the monster AI is called Focus. Every time a creature acts, they identify an enemy player as their focus - normally it's the closest player; in case of multiple players at the same distance, the one with the lowest initiative. In this case, the Guards's ability card for the round is a simple MOVE2, ATK2. Every Guard will act in order of standee, take focus, try to move closer to the focused enemy and attack. Let's take Bandit Guard 1 as an example: Bullwinkle the Inox Brute is the closest enemy, so it becomes the focus for this monster. Bandit Guard 1 can only move 2, though, so their not close enough to attack. Now, let's play through the first round: Black Barrows, Round 1 posted:50. BANDIT GUARDS 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  With the first round over, I have to say the current system has worked out better than expected. I was able to carry out the active players's orders without having to take decisions on my own (not more than I would have had to do with the potential new system). With the game being played in an asynchronous way, I still have to take some decisions (IE: I have elected to move Bullwinkle 0 since SalTheBard's intentions were to attack 5 and 6 and to block for his companions). Otho, if see that the current system is not fun/viable or we have a disastrous outcome due to it, we'll take a decision. I'll post a screenshot of each character's and the party sheet once the first scenario is over! I'll also start collecting these kind of resources in the second and third post of the thread, then. Reik, Some Numbers and SalTheBard, please submit your orders for round 2! - Specify two plans, using the two possible combinations of top/bottom. PLAN A is your preferred one. - Select one or more preferred target(s) for your attacks. (IE: "n.3"; or "n.4 if it's still alive, otherwise n.5") - Select one or more preferred final location for your movements. - Specify the maximum enemy focus threshold you will tolerate: if your selected orders move you in a place that puts you into N+ enemy focus, I'll try to accomodate that into your orders. This is to avoid potential suicide rushes, since you will operate without full knowledge of potential enemy positions. - (OPTIONAL) add your intention for the round. This will allow me to better understand and execute your idea (IE: I want to grab focus from the enemies trying to kill PlayerX). DEADLINE FOR EVERYTHING IS: TONIGHT, 3AM EST  Everyone is free to take part in the planning for the round, even if the last word is reserved for the current active players. Also if you have any kind of feedback on the LP (especially on anything I could improve...is the update cycle too fast? Are the images and the battle log understandable?) please let me know! That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Dec 22, 2018 |
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Dec 22, 2018 12:28
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That went way better than I expected.
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Dec 22, 2018 14:18
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Was Bullwinkle planning to use just the basic move bottom of Trample or the actual card? If it's the actual card, you can do a circle to move through the enemies and end up in the same square you left but with attacking them as well. If it was the basic move, can you indicate that it is being used as a basic 2 move when you do the writeup?
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Dec 22, 2018 14:38
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I imagine it was basic, rather than using a Lost card on the first turn against some generic enemies, but I could be wrong.
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Dec 22, 2018 14:45
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Italian Guy specified it was a move 2 when he posted Bullwinkle's card selection. (I just got Gloomhaven for Christmas, so I'm going to check out of the thread soon for spoiler reasons, but I'm going to follow some of this first scenario to get s better feel for how the game plays.)
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Dec 22, 2018 15:13
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If you didn't know, the Bandit Guards were set to level 0. Also, in the spreadsheet I only see 9 cards for Rocky and Bullwinkle? Reik fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Dec 22, 2018 |
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Dec 22, 2018 15:13
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PMush Perfect posted:I imagine it was basic, rather than using a Lost card on the first turn against some generic enemies, but I could be wrong. I find a loss card can greatly speed up the first room and lead to a great benefit overall (especially for those with a larger hand size), and this would pretty much be the optimal use of Trample (circling around would let the brute hit 6, 2, and 5)
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Dec 22, 2018 15:16
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Reik posted:If you didn't know, the Bandit Guards were set to level 0. That means you're playing level minus 1, not level plus zero as was indicated. And didn't the level 1 bandit stats get posted? I do see that the archer/bones stats are L0. (No elite stats?) It is so strange seeing Living Bones without shield. That's a fine choice--we lost our first game on normal and then played the first two scenarios on "easy" when learning the game--but this first turn would have gone much differently with L1 guards.
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Dec 22, 2018 15:48
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Piell posted:I find a loss card can greatly speed up the first room and lead to a great benefit overall (especially for those with a larger hand size), and this would pretty much be the optimal use of Trample (circling around would let the brute hit 6, 2, and 5)
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Dec 22, 2018 16:07
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I wanted to ease the players into the game as I found out that Scenario1 is surprisingly punishing if you're not familiar with Gloomhaven; in this case I think everyone has played it before, but I wasn't sure about it so I kept the difficulty on easy. If the players want me to, we can bump it to LVL1 monsters from the next room on! As Narsham has mentioned, lvl1 Guards have MOVE3 instead of 2, with five of them - instead of 2 - beign able to strike our heroes. I've mentioned Bullwinkle's move using trample was a basic one in the breakdown but not in the actual combat log; I'll do that in the future, thanks for the advice! I'll also post stats for Elite Bandit Archers and Living Bones asap! Some cards have probably lost their lives in a copy/paste mishap in the spreadsheet! Rats! I'll fix that as soon as I'll be back at a computer.
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Dec 22, 2018 16:09
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Level 0 works fine with me. My initial plan is to go quickly and finish off bandit 6 while stunning either bandit 2 or 5. Reik fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Dec 22, 2018 |
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Dec 22, 2018 16:15
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Elephant Ambush posted:That went way better than I expected. Same. The first room is a meat grinder, and some Bandit cards can surprise the party and make the room very difficult on turn number one.
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Dec 22, 2018 17:36
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My plan is to go medium fast and try to damage at least 3 at once
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Dec 22, 2018 17:41
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Can we discuss why I ended up with all the -1s? Whatever, I'm going drop some rocks on the guards, so you guys should watch out. You're in the splash zone.
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Dec 22, 2018 17:58
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I imagine he just picked a character at random? It doesn't looks like we're able to spread them out. Would you be opposed to throwing the rocks at the guards we're not currently engaged with, and seeing if the Brute can finish them off? Reik fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Dec 22, 2018 |
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Dec 22, 2018 18:11
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I'm throwing rocks to maximize damage. That's the most I can say without breaking the table talk rules. Or wait. Am I able to say card names?
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Dec 22, 2018 18:30
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Some Numbers posted:Can we discuss why I ended up with all the -1s? The card text says "One starts scenario with [-1] x3" and the cruel RNG has chosen you. Fate and are fickle mistresses.Also: - Bullwinkle's card usage has been clarified in the combat log; - Basic stats for Elite variants have been provided (elite skellies gotta go fast); - The Card list sheet for Rocky & Bullwinkle have been fixed! Some Numbers posted:Or wait. Am I able to say card names? EDIT: clarifying since the policy has somewhat been unclear at first (I went back and edited my posts to make this more clear)...We'll do it the normal way - especially since we're playing on LVL0 for this Scenario. And per Isaac clarification: As long as you avoid specific numerical values and card names, you can say whatever you want. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Dec 22, 2018 |
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Dec 22, 2018 18:31
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Some Numbers posted:I'm throwing rocks to maximize damage. That's the most I can say without breaking the table talk rules. No, card names and all numbers aren't supposed to be allowed.
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Dec 22, 2018 18:33
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Cool. I'm maximizing damage.
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Dec 22, 2018 18:41
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If we're all good with card selection, do we want to try and clear 2 rounds today?
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Dec 22, 2018 18:49
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^^^^^^^^ That won't be possible today due to timezone differences (I'm in EU, so it's almost dinnertime here and I'll be out for the night - I normally work on the update and release it in the morning GMT so that both EU and US players will have a full day to send their orders in). If I'm staying home, can work on the update and we have a fast round - and if all the active players are good with it - we may be able to play a double-round at times in the future. Standard update rate will be 1/day to allow everyone to catch up with the thread; also what I really really want to avoid is for one of the active players to feel overwhelmed with the updates frequency, if this becomes higher than the expected one. As a general rule for new players...As long as you avoid specific numerical values and card names, you can say whatever you want. So, Things you are allowed to say: - Your general plan for the round; - The "speed" you'll act on (IE: I'll be fast, slow, very slow, etc) - note that this could mean different things for different characters! - Things like "I'll go fast and try to kill that guy" - "I'll STUN this monster, so you can ignore it for this round" - "I'll do light damage to this, this and that enemy" - "Don't move near me or you'll get damaged". - "Push that guy onto that trap" - "I need someone to generate FIRE and I'm going medium speed" - "If you stay near me and go slow I can buff you" - "I will move into that hex and attack that enemy" - And so on. Things you are NOT allowed to say: - "I'll act at initiative 15." - "I'll do 6 damage to that guy." - "I'll play Trample and Skewer this round." - And so on. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Dec 23, 2018 |
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Dec 22, 2018 18:52
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I'm going fast and doing a lot of damage.
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Dec 22, 2018 19:04
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Just my opinion as an observer but the 3 -1s should have been decided between the players. It won't really make a huge difference but I don't think it should be RNG in the future.
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Dec 22, 2018 21:25
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 23:45 |
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quote:50. BANDIT GUARDS 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 I enjoy two thirds of the guards offloading their work onto their buddy. As for the road event, I'm not sure of a way to put the penalty choice in the player's hands without adding an extra processing round.
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Dec 22, 2018 22:29
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