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The post about how the Fighter should be "the hero" still seems like the most reasonable change - - whoever it was that said a fighter should inspire and be a leader and an exemplar of their people. I don't know how to systematize it, but it's like the only idea here that has stayed on task in recognizing that Fighter needs more love in the other pillars more than he needs to be better at killing.
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Dec 27, 2018 18:34
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CJ posted:Give fighters an ability called Rallying Cry. I don't know what it would do but it should be called that. I'm not saying you should call yourself a hero, just be prepared when others start doing it
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Dec 27, 2018 18:34
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Nehru the Damaja posted:The post about how the Fighter should be "the hero" still seems like the most reasonable change - - whoever it was that said a fighter should inspire and be a leader and an exemplar of their people. There's already a Fighter that does all this and it's called Paladin.
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Dec 27, 2018 18:43
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Conspiratiorist posted:There's already a Fighter that does all this and it's called Paladin. I mean if that's the case there's no point in rehabilitating the Fighter.
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Dec 27, 2018 18:59
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CJ posted:Give fighters an ability called Rallying Cry. I don't know what it would do but it should be called that. BA, once a long rest everybody on their team within earshot can regain a hit die of HP or some poo poo.
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Dec 27, 2018 19:09
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I'm reminded of the recent Fist of the North Star game where the protagonist uses his gargantuan muscles to mix cocktails heretofor unknown to mortal man. I really do like the idea that the Fighter is widely hailed as an awesome hero or a scary ultrabastard more readily than other character types, but I think it has a bit of an issue in that it sort of thrusts the role of party leader onto the fighter, which wouldn't necessarily be what the fighter player actually wants. Dunno how you'd simulate it mechanically, take 10 on persuasion/intimidation like that Rogue ability, take 20 some x number of times per long rest? Similarly I like in principle the idea that fighters just loving slaughter stuff that's weaker than them, but mechanically what that probably means is less dice rolling for the player (either not needing to roll damage, or the DM is rolling the creature's save-or-die), and rolling dice is a key fun part of D&D for many people (i'd guess, especially people who pick Fighter as a class). There's a variant in the DM's guide for plot points (page 269) where the players can interject with actions or additions which the DM just has to accept as true. Maybe give high level fighters heroism points, where some number of times per long rest or per session they can just say stuff like "I smash through the dungeon wall" or "I'm going to arm wrestle this guy for the key" and that just happens, as long as it's related to their martial abilities or their imposing/inspiring demeanor.
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Dec 27, 2018 19:11
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doctor 7 posted:BA, once a long rest everybody on their team within earshot can regain a hit die of HP or some poo poo. Make it actually good. Everybody on their team can take the attack action or cast a cantrip.
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Dec 27, 2018 19:12
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I mean if that's the case there's no point in rehabilitating the Fighter. Bingo. It takes so much work to 'fix', it's easier to either refluff the Paladin or learn a different system.
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Dec 27, 2018 19:19
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Right now, apart from the not-dying stat, there are casters that care about their casting stat, partial casters that care about their casting and hitting stat, and non-casters (fighter/rogue/barbarian) that only care about their hitting stat. Maybe what non-casters need is a mental stat that defines their ability to do things besides just hitting? Rogues can have INT to define their quick thinking, and fighters and barbs can have WIS to show their gutsy, gritty experience. For one reason or another, party leaders in fiction are often also fighter types, so maybe fighters should have some abilities that support that fantasy. Casters already have spells that act as "I Win" buttons in various social and exploratory encounters, so giving the same to non-casters should be reasonable. At low levels, fighters should be able to build an instant rapport with soldiers, guards, and other enlisted grunts and charm/frighten them as an ability; at medium levels, this works on officers; at high levels, heroes; near cap, even kings should listen to their strongly-worded requests. This can even be another level of differentiation between casters and non-casters; important people have attending mages that can notice nearby magic, but there shouldn't be a magical defense against a really charming guy with a really sterling reputation. And then there's using WIS in combat as a "casting" stat for stabbing people's shins or pommel-striking their heads to inflict statuses or something. I dunno, 5e really doesn't do a good job of letting fighters fulfill any of their class fantasies.
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Dec 27, 2018 19:23
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So rehabilitate Purple Dragon Knight, and make *that* belong to every Fighter.
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Dec 27, 2018 19:34
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Conspiratiorist posted:There's already a Fighter that does all this and it's called Paladin. No? The paladin is a fanatic who's devoted to their cause and their order. They get a normal reason to raise Charisma and can have social skills as their main skills, just like the bard. That doesn't mean they're the sort of assigned "protagonist" class, no more then the bard or sorcerer is. They already have their schtick of their order and their cause. People can like and trust a paladin, but they'll always have a degree of separation from other, normal folk. At this point you're assigning stuff to the paladin that doesn't exist just to deny it to the fighter.
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Dec 27, 2018 19:49
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ProfessorCirno posted:No? The paladin is a fanatic who's devoted to their cause and their order. They get a normal reason to raise Charisma and can have social skills as their main skills, just like the bard. That doesn't mean they're the sort of assigned "protagonist" class, no more then the bard or sorcerer is. They already have their schtick of their order and their cause. People can like and trust a paladin, but they'll always have a degree of separation from other, normal folk. Mechanics.
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Dec 27, 2018 20:02
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Conspiratiorist posted:Mechanics. That's definitely a word. Got more words to add to it?
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Dec 27, 2018 20:04
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ProfessorCirno posted:That's definitely a word. Got more words to add to it? Paladin as a class: - Uses weapons and armor. - Has Fighter HP. - Has built auras that protect and inspire allies (bonus to saves, condition immunities). - Have numerous buff spells. - Possess innate team HP recovery abilities in addition to said spells. - Did I mention spellcasting utility? - Has a whole set of abilities that key off Charisma so it's mechanically beneficial for them beyond skill fodder. So for the question of how, mechanically, you'd describe a Fighter that inspires, leads, and supports a group, the answer is Paladin. Who cares the fluff says poo poo about religion and causes and orders and whatever? We're talking, and have been talking, game mechanics for the past 3 pages.
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Dec 27, 2018 20:19
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That has been one of my problems with the skill system and the background system. I think it would work better to limit full casters to Arcana and Region/History and maybe one more depending on your class and subclass. But anyone can pick a skill intensive background and load up on skills with backgrounds. If you're looking for out of combat extras for fighters I would add a Warfare skill that fighters get expertise in. They could use that in place of history, insight or perception checks if the situation called for it. Also give fighters a "Brother in Arms" type ability that gives them advantage in social situations against military and paramilitary people. They can naturally schmooze up the guards on duty for a bit of info because they can connect easily with guys standing watch all night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjbna_5eL6s Instead of Honor you get a Military/Martial score and use that for anything military related.
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Dec 27, 2018 20:19
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You can make a charismatic fighter leader but you'd need to roll stats instead of array or point buy I actually like that different classes operate on different resource recharging so there's extra tension between players but it certainly makes things harder to balance if balance is something you think should exist between classes
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Dec 27, 2018 20:30
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That's not a source of healthy tension.
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Dec 27, 2018 20:33
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Give fighters a "heroic admiration" ability. Whenever someone sees a fighter do something heroic/dangerous that the witness wouldn't have done himself (too afraid, too risky, etc...), and the fighter succeeds, he makes permanent allies. Whether it's a king or an enemy bandit or a guard platoon, the fighter charms them into admiration and loyalty. How about something like that?
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Dec 27, 2018 20:39
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Xae posted:That has been one of my problems with the skill system and the background system. Yep. To casting spells. If you're a full caster, that's your meaningful background. Lean into the "but but but it's really very hard to learn and only for the smartest of smarty smarts" nerd power fantasy and make wizardry the kind of super specialised skill/knowledge that means you didn't get to do anything else with your life since age 12 or so. If it's not about casting spells, they were never interested enough to learn it at even a middle school level. Think of them as the kind of person who's proud that they haven't read a novel since the last time they had to because that's the Arts, but for everything not directly adjacent to casting spells. "Haha, that's adorable but when would I have had time to learn to sew? I could have learned it faster than you, but you can't cast Mending and I can, so... "
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Dec 27, 2018 21:22
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More stuff like the Wanderer background feature (Which is my default pick for most characters of any class) just bolted onto fighters by default would be nice? Wanderer feature in particular has two aspects. Fantasy GPS: Always know north, none of this 'only on the prime material plane' bullshit. Instantly memorize any map you see. Built in automap with perfect memory for it. (Flavor text for 'things most groups take for granted anyways'). Auto forage: You automatically forage enough food and water for "Five medium creatures" per day, if there is even the least excuse to find anything. (Again, 'Things many groups take for granted') This doesn't step on Ranger's gimmicks because ranger is much better at tracking, careful navigations rather than "I just walked out of the desert, it's not hard guys". And most important to a friend of mine worried about it, the forage is JUST food. You can't auto succeed on salvaging that sweet poison sack or dragon hide somebody wants for crafting or loot reasons. Though I just like the idea that one of the reasons fighters don't "Interact with skill challenges" is that they think "Oh, this is easy stuff everyone can do.". So previous comments about free take 10's or other baked in successes on basic interactions could at least be a nice touch for more options. You turn to the party bard to swing for the fences in diplomacy (or just cast charm). You turn to the ranger to stalk a manticore through a forest. You turn to the Fighter for immunity to poo poo rolls. That and just pile on the BG features that have any actual value. Need to cross a large body of water but the module or GM forgot to include HOW? Ship's Passage feature has you covered. Wizard hosed up their lore role? Researcher means you happen to know a guy who could answer the question or heard some rumor of a convenient abandoned tower of exposition. Throw in "Me and the party travel double speed in cities out of combat" City Secrets because why the gently caress not? Infinite Karma posted:Give fighters a "heroic admiration" ability. Whenever someone sees a fighter do something heroic/dangerous that the witness wouldn't have done himself (too afraid, too risky, etc...), and the fighter succeeds, he makes permanent allies. Whether it's a king or an enemy bandit or a guard platoon, the fighter charms them into admiration and loyalty. How about something like that?
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Dec 27, 2018 21:27
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Conspiratiorist posted:Paladin as a class: Ok, but all you've listed here are combat options. We've also been talking for three pages on how what the Fighter needs is more out of combat options, not in-combat options. The Fighter inspires and leads because they literally get that ability as they level, under this idea. At low levels they get a scaling bonus to social actions, at mid levels they get essentially a passive diplomacy/intimidate score to represent them becoming more famous and obviously battle worn, and at higher levels they get, I dunno, a permanent Charm Person effect on everyone who falls under their passive diplomacy/intimidate score, just to spitball some stuff. The paladin already has "semi-divine warrior with spells," the ranger already has "wilderness warrior," the rogue has "is a thief." The fighter gets to be John Videogames, the designated protagonist. The fighter doesn't need the paladin options because the paladin is already serving Good King John Videogames the First. Or is best friends with John Videogames, Former Hero, Now Retired Innkeeper, who's everyone's friend. Or because they have past history with John Videogames the Grim, or because they trained in swordplay alongside the famous and renowned swordmaster, or because...you get the idea. Paladins have to put points into being social. Fighters become famous by default.
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Dec 27, 2018 21:40
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I think a big problem is the ability proficiency system is dumb and isn't capable of differentiating between the war hero making a plea to the king for support in a war and the jester bard doing the same thing. in fact the jester bard will probably be better at it.
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Dec 27, 2018 22:20
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Humble Bundle has some 3rd-party 5E... ish? books.
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Dec 27, 2018 22:41
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ProfessorCirno posted:Ok, but all you've listed here are combat options. We've also been talking for three pages on how what the Fighter needs is more out of combat options, not in-combat options. Yeah. "Hero" rather than religious sword guy. Most people including myself seem to see a Hero or a General for the fighter. What about Veteran as the third archetype? The guy who, at the start of the game, has been there, done that, looted the tshirt. Just knows a bunch of stuff. It's so rare for him to come across something where he'd be able to say "I've never seen anything like that" that it's (mechanically) reserved for Antagonist level threats. He's seen every kind of trap there is. He knows all kinds of nasty tricks and how to play or avoid them. He'a met a whole lot of people over the years, and usually knows a local shibboleth or two - and maybe has a local enemy. Mechanically: The Veteran is hard to surprise, doesn't get lost, turns out to have prepared for exactly this, hardly ever gets tired, nearly always knows a local, and knows a pertinent detail or two about nearly everything. "Ha, you call this a Forest of Doom? When I adventured in the east with the Five Farstriders, now THAT was a proper forest of doom. Not like this rubbish. You could see the giant spiders from a hundred yards away, they were that big. Here you have to practically step on them. ...you mean you didn't see 'em? You always get giants spiders in any forest east of mountains! These ones lurk in the ferns. Watch this..."
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Dec 27, 2018 22:45
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I'd honestly love to see an actual superhero-style fighter of the kind that Mearls talked about during 5e development - the Cu Chulainns, the Beowulfs, the Gilgameshes, the Achilleses. People who can literally wrestle a river into changing course, knock down a wall with a firm headbutt, pick up the king by the scruff of the bneck and threaten him into submission and NO ONE WILL TOUCH HER because she is THAT loving SCARY. Someone who you piss off and you instantly feel like something's passed over your grave because they were THAT close to killing you that you loving FELT it. Someone who can roar so loudly that a RIOT simply... pauses for thought. Someone who can step out onto a bridge in the face of an opposing army and hold that loving bridge until kingdom come. it's not just about combat, thoguh a lot of their responses to any situation will involve violence, the threat of violence, or the liberal application of (near meta-)physical strength, because... well, Fighter. But someone who can actually have an equivalent narrative impact to a Wizard of the same level casting his best spell. I do like the 'bored veteran' archetype, too. Soomeone who just wanders apparently aimlessly through everything, and JUST ducks at the right time, JUST slides to the side as the axe swings down, just quirks an eyebrow and makes a gesture and the master of the thieves' guild gulps and hands over the loot he'd been planning to keep on a technicality, etc etc. But again, it comes down to narrative impact.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:01
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CJ posted:I think a big problem is the ability proficiency system is dumb and isn't capable of differentiating between the war hero making a plea to the king for support in a war and the jester bard doing the same thing. in fact the jester bard will probably be better at it. I read this thread and swear that y'all don't have DMs. Like, I get that RAW are bad sometimes, but that's literally the point of having a DM - you can alter the rules as you wish, whenever you want, and nobody is going to complain that you gave the hero of the battle a bonus to talking w/ the king or whatever. The rules in the books are supposed to be the starting point for your games, not the final word.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:05
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thespaceinvader posted:I do like the 'bored veteran' archetype, too. Soomeone who just wanders apparently aimlessly through everything, and JUST ducks at the right time, JUST slides to the side as the axe swings down, just quirks an eyebrow and makes a gesture and the master of the thieves' guild gulps and hands over the loot he'd been planning to keep on a technicality, etc etc. Gonna dig up my copy of White Wolf's "Adventure!" tonight and see if any daredevil knacks translate to dnd well. The preternaturally lucky hero fighter could be fun.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:08
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Skyl3lazer posted:I read this thread and swear that y'all don't have DMs. Like, I get that RAW are bad sometimes, but that's literally the point of having a DM - you can alter the rules as you wish, whenever you want, and nobody is going to complain that you gave the hero of the battle a bonus to talking w/ the king or whatever. Saying a DM can arbitrate a solution is not an excuse for a mechanic not existing if there is good cause for it to exist.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:12
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Skyl3lazer posted:I read this thread and swear that y'all don't have DMs. Like, I get that RAW are bad sometimes, but that's literally the point of having a DM - you can alter the rules as you wish, whenever you want, and nobody is going to complain that you gave the hero of the battle a bonus to talking w/ the king or whatever. Yes but we're talking about DnD not a game i made up.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:19
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My advice is to do the things that are fun, and not do those things which are not.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:20
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I feel like i'm experienced and intelligent enough to do the fun things. The problem is there are plenty of people who aren't. I have played with them at the local game shop and at the adventure league club.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:27
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Skyl3lazer posted:I read this thread and swear that y'all don't have DMs. Like, I get that RAW are bad sometimes, but that's literally the point of having a DM - you can alter the rules as you wish, whenever you want, and nobody is going to complain that you gave the hero of the battle a bonus to talking w/ the king or whatever. You mean that you'd alter the rules? Gasp! Surely nobody ever thought of doing that before! Certainly nobody has been talking about doing just that in the several pages of pointless whining that preceded your incredibly insightful post! Skyl3lazer posted:My advice is to do the things that are fun, and not do those things which are not. Wow thanks I can't believe nobody thought of that thank you for your service.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:29
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CJ posted:I feel like i'm experienced and intelligent enough to do the fun things. The problem is there are plenty of people who aren't. I have played with them at the local game shop and at the adventure league club. Skyl3lazer posted:My advice is to do the things that are fun, and not do those things which are not.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:31
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ProfessorCirno posted:No? The paladin is a fanatic who's devoted to their cause and their order. They get a normal reason to raise Charisma and can have social skills as their main skills, just like the bard. That doesn't mean they're the sort of assigned "protagonist" class, no more then the bard or sorcerer is. They already have their schtick of their order and their cause. People can like and trust a paladin, but they'll always have a degree of separation from other, normal folk. My dude, have you seen the Order of the Ancients Paladin? Pretty much you don't even need a deity, you just live to protect and enjoy life
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Dec 27, 2018 23:32
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We're actually talking about the thread's topic and title - the rules of 5th edition - but hey, you can start your own thread on cool homebrews if that's what you're interested in!
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Dec 27, 2018 23:33
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GoGoGadget posted:My dude, have you seen the Order of the Ancients Paladin? Pretty much you don't even need a deity, you just live to protect and enjoy life I like the Order of the Ancient Paladin because it is the exact opposite of your typical Holier-than-Thou Paladin. Hes the guy who stays up drinking and partying all night and still wakes up in the morning to kick evils rear end and save the village. Its great for people who want to play a Paladin and don't want to either have a stick up their rear end or a Batman (Oath of Vengeance) fetish.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:37
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ProfessorCirno posted:We're actually talking about the thread's topic and title - the rules of 5th edition - but hey, you can start your own thread on cool homebrews if that's what you're interested in! Look, to be non-antagonistic for a post or two, all pen&paper systems have issues of one sort or another. In D&D, it's part of the DM's job to adjust the play experience to make the game as fun as possible for themselves and the players. That definition of "fun" is going to be different for everyone, so the books are never going to perfectly describe the system that a given playgroup is going to enjoy playing the most. All the players can do is try to express what they find fun to WotC, in the hopes that more of the commonly-thought-of-as-fun rules are what become core.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:44
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Skyl3lazer posted:Look, to be non-antagonistic for a post or two, all pen&paper systems have issues of one sort or another. In D&D, it's part of the DM's job to adjust the play experience to make the game as fun as possible for themselves and the players. Yes, and our discussion is there because the game doesn't give advice on those matters. You will find nothing in the books about increasing the Fighter's narrative power. Not in the mechanics, not in the GM advice, nowhere. It is a failing of the game. Just sitting back with arms crossed going "eh people will figure it out or they won't" solves nothing. Besides that, we are literally doing what you said. We're making homebrew and houserules to solve that problem! We're making the GM advice you want! You seem to mostly just be upset that people are posting about the game, which is absolute madness.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:51
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ProfessorCirno posted:Besides that, we are literally doing what you said. We're making homebrew and houserules to solve that problem! We're making the GM advice you want! You seem to mostly just be upset that people are posting about the game, which is absolute madness. No, people were complaining that their homerule isn't in the book, so actually playing by that rule didn't solve the problem.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:53
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Xae posted:I like the Order of the Ancient Paladin because it is the exact opposite of your typical Holier-than-Thou Paladin. I feel like there's some dissonance between the tenets and "this is the nature /fey/elf Paladin" mechanics. When I first started I wanted to make an Ancients Paladin that I think someone here shorthanded to "beer knight" but the mechanics would take some substantial reskinning to fit.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:53
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