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Apologies if this sounds like the ultimate in first world problems, but as someone with bad anxiety making large decisions this is eating me up and I figured I'd ask for advice. I'm a senior Computer Science student from Canada looking at two competing job offers, both with companies I've done 4 month internships with before (one last winter, one which just ended). The first company is a medium-large sized firm in NYC (~1000 people in three offices wordwide), that is very highly respected in it's field. It's well known as one of the hardest jobs in the industry to land, pays incredibly well (starting at 250k USD/yr + 401k matching and an incredible health plan with lots of potential to grow, and a 50k signing bonus), is stable and growing, with free lunch and gym and all the usual crazy tech perks. It's also only a 7 hour drive or 2 hour flight where I grew up and where all my family is. I found it a pretty good place to work. I also like to cook and have a lot of cooking equipment that I could easily move to NYC and have a nice setup. The second company is small (~10 people) stock trading firm in Tokyo. It pays very well for Tokyo (~175k/yr), but might not be the most stable company in the world (plus a good chunk of the pay is tied to firm performance) and has limited growth potential (as all the employees except the owner are effectively equal and paid the same with some slight tweaks to the bonus structure). It's also 12 hours by an expensive plan ride away from my family and existing friends, and I'd imagine making new friends and finding other jobs in the future will be harder there given the language barrier. However, I just worked there, and absolutely fell in love with Tokyo and Japan. The city is amazing, the general way of life feels like a better fit for me, and the transit, infrastructure and food give an incredible quality of life. My university program involves finding a lot of 4 month internships, meaning I've been able to live in NYC, London, SF and Tokyo, and this is the first one I've reached the end of and not had any real desire to return home. I also quite enjoyed the freedom of the smaller firm, both in terms of the work done and the working style (you could order whatever setup you like to work on, you could work from home most of the time if you want, or come into the office, hours were mostly flexible). Part of me thinks that I'm giving up an incredible opportunity if I don't take the NY firm, and that the foreignness of Tokyo may grate on me eventually (even if it didn't at all in the 4 months I was there). It's an insane amount of money, a highly prestigious job that I enjoy doing, and a world class city near my family where I speak the language. The other part of thinks I'm being too conservative taking that job, and should take the risk and return to Tokyo, which has been by far my favourite place to live.
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Dec 26, 2018 22:12
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Is it worth the ~$100k a year difference to live in Tokyo instead of just vacationing there occasionally? I mean, there's way too many things we don't know to tell you for sure, so if you're just looking for validation that yes, you can live on $175k, I'm here to assure you that you can. If you want to retire at 30, take the extra money. Do you want to get married/have kids? There's a million things to consider but the salary difference is preeeeeeetty big. 250k a year plus bonus/etc is a stupid amount of cash and if money is important to you take the (significantly) higher salary. To expand on that, the salary difference is like, $300 a day. Is it worth $300 a day to get to grab an onigiri from the konbini on your way to the yamanote line instead of having to uber through manhattan or whatever? edit: i know that last sentence sounds dismissive and possibly condescending, i didn't mean it to be. Your lower offer is more than 4x my salary, I can't begin to fathom the actual decisions that go into deciding to take a cut of that amount and I don't know how important it is to live somewhere you'd prefer. If you're genuinely going to be happier in Japan, go for it. Spokes fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Dec 26, 2018 |
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Dec 26, 2018 22:43
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You're young, and possibly not going to have a lot of opportunities where you're this untethered to be able to move to another country and work there. You've already dipped your toes in the water (four months is a healthy amount of time), so you at least know it takes quite awhile for the homesickness to get the better of you (if it ever does). Not going to Tokyo is taking a pass on a big opportunity cost, and it sounds like a lot less work, so you'd have more personal time, which is important. That being said, that's a big difference in salary, and a big culture shock that you could avoid as far as the language and things go. From what you've described, neither option screams "yeah, you should totally take this over the other one," and depending on what you want to accentuate, either could be justified. Personally, I'd love to have an opportunity that might let me emigrate from the U.S. eventually, even if it was to someplace semi-fascist like Japan.
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Dec 27, 2018 01:52
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For me, a stable job that paid well would allow me to travel sufficiently to scratch that itch. The Japan job sounds flimsy at best, and if I were in your shoes, it would be too flimsy for me. If I were you, I'd go to the NY job and get some real world experience and then transfer to an exotic office when I have enough experience to land a solid, real job that isn't some flimsy dinky hole in the wall. But, the way you describe it, it sounds like you are standing on a fence and the grass is green on both sides of the fence. You literally can't make a wrong decision. This is not a problem. Not even a first world problem.
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Dec 27, 2018 07:14
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Money aside, it sounds like the nyc job will give you a ton of clout if it's respected in the field a much as you're saying it is. That's worth a lot, a lot more than cash-in-hand in the short term. It just sounds more stable in general. I know there's a ~take the road less travelled~ factor that could lead you to the Tokyo but that is completely offset by the extra 150k you'd be making in NY. You could use the salary bump to take a lavish trip to Tokyo every month and still have cash left over. This doesn't even sound like a choice to me, it's like your brain hasn't caught up to the fact that you're in the big leagues now and you're entertaining a gap year fantasy that doesn't reflect reality. Take the new york job!!!
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Dec 27, 2018 08:09
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Thanks everyone for the input. I'll admit I'm likely overthinking things, but I have an anxiety disorder so this decision has been weighing very heavily on me for the last few days. The actual salary in Japan might average somewhat higher that I first indicated - it's $130k + some bonus bonus that's highly dependant on firm performance. They had a good year this year, and if I was there I probably would have made similar amounts to the NY job overall (where the bonus for your first few years is entirely dependant on your performance), maybe even slightly more. However it is quite variable. My bigger concerns honestly have to do with location. I adored Tokyo for my 4 months there, but I'm unsure how much of that is novelty - unlike the other cities I've worked for 4 months in (SF, NY, London), Tokyo is big and different enough the novelty may not have fully worn off by the end. It's a long way from home, and the language barrier might make it difficult to make friends.
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Dec 27, 2018 18:57
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It's perfectly reasonable to be torn about this choice, that's a big anxiety inducing decision so don't feel like you're overthinking or anything. Even in your couple of posts here it sounds like you know what to do, but feel like you'll be missing out on some valuable life experience if you pick the "safe" choice. Just remember that you're opening doors for the future and will probably be secure enough to move to japan for shits n giggles if you want to later. Plus you're talking about new york city, not omaha or edmonton or something. Even if the novelty is gone since you've worked there before, you can still have a really fun life in nyc (especially with all the disposable income), and might not regret skipping tokyo as much as you think. Take a lyft to JFK and fly direct to Tokyo if you want, the flight will cost you a single day's salary lol.
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Dec 27, 2018 19:27
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life is a joke posted:Even in your couple of posts here it sounds like you know what to do, but feel like you'll be missing out on some valuable life experience if you pick the "safe" choice. Just remember that you're opening doors for the future and will probably be secure enough to move to japan for shits n giggles if you want to later. This may be part of it. I waffled back and forth quite a bit on whether to take the Tokyo internship or a more traditional one in the Bay Area. Trying out this company in Tokyo was quite a risk to begin with, they are a small firm without much information out there about them, so I came close to chickening out on flying halfway around the world for a small company I'd never heard of. It turns out I definitely made the right choice in the end there - I loved my time in Tokyo, and the company was amazing, with the boss being impressed enough by my work that he's cutting me in on the bonus pool this year to a pretty significant amount despite that not being something negotiated ahead of time. For some reason the Japanese way-of-life seemed to click with me, but I'm unsure if that is still partially do some novelty that hasn't fully worn off. I almost gave up on this great opportunity and went for the safe choice because I was anxious about the risks, and don't want to make the mistake I narrowly avoided there.
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Dec 27, 2018 19:46
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You are a college senior about to make 250k out of the gate? gently caress you OP. Take the quarter million you stupid gently caress.
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Dec 28, 2018 00:27
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:You are a college senior about to make 250k out of the gate? Maybe hes converting to Canadian loonies or something so it's really like $40k
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Dec 28, 2018 01:20
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It's USD, but 250k in NYC isn't all that different from 175k in Tokyo once you factor in cost of living - especially rent and restaurants. Though think the NY job has a more definite path to increasing that (the Tokyo bonus pay is tied to firm perf, so it could be even higher if the firm does well, but it is relying on the performance of the firm - flip side is if the firm does insanely well it could make absurd amounts of money).
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Dec 28, 2018 05:07
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Take the NY job holy moly. Do you think, given what has happened to the markets in the last, say, month, that 10 folks in Tokyo have a rock solid grasp on what will happen in 2019? Wound you be willing to bet more than 150k that they will be wildly successful?
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Dec 28, 2018 07:42
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Feisty-Cadaver posted:Take the NY job holy moly. Do you really think the NYC job is gonna stick around if the markets tank? Everyone seems to be focused on the money, but there is something to be said for the extra free time.
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Dec 28, 2018 17:35
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Japanese markets will tank too, and a 10-person startup sounds less likely to weather that storm than a bigger firm here. While six-figure salaries aren't uncommon in tech, quarter mil offers and being headhunted across the globe right after graduation are not, so I assume the OP has some kind of really special skills and would probably be fine in the event of either opportunity not working out.
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Dec 28, 2018 19:48
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mmm11105 posted:It's USD, but 250k in NYC isn't all that different from 175k in Tokyo Yes it is. I've worked in both. Japan will eat more of your money than NYC, have you spent any decent amount of time in Tokyo? My God. Take the NYC job, find a cheaper place in NJ and commute by rail, treat yourself to a couple business-class flights to Tokyo a year, and congratulate yourself on winning life's lottery to even have these options. Also, based on your description of both jobs I'm having a hard time understanding why this is a question.
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Dec 29, 2018 00:10
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life is a joke posted:a 10-person startup sounds less likely to weather that storm than a bigger firm here. Yes, this exactly.
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Dec 29, 2018 01:05
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The history of tech is pretty clear: it doesn't matter how big the company is, they all get bought and sold and have divisions shut down. Yes, even at this week's OMG AMAZING company like Google or Facebook, they might not exist in 10 years. Government is generally worse. When I worked in government there was a shutdown every six months for some stupid reason, then there were the powerful senators from Kentucky that were always trying to get fed slots moved to score points so they'd shut down labs all the time. Then there are all the research teams and departments that are fighting for grant funding from various sources year over year, that's about the least stable job in the universe. There is never a safe place to "weather a storm", don't plan your career around some fictional recession your parents keep warning you about, that's like the least important of all metrics to consider. Just avoid the super obvious bullshit nonsense hype fields like cryptocoins and machine learning and you'll be fine in any recession. Pryor on Fire fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Dec 29, 2018 |
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Dec 29, 2018 01:10
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Also we need a term for these humblebrag threads where 21 year olds try to get us to help them decide between a yacht or private plane because they are starting to annoy the poo poo out of me.
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Dec 29, 2018 01:18
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Pryor on Fire posted:Also we need a term for these humblebrag threads where 21 year olds try to get us to help them decide between a yacht or private plane because they are starting to annoy the poo poo out of me. There are a surprising number of people here who find thin excuses to post about how much money they make. It's even sadder when the person doing it is older. At least with the 21 year olds it's just a combination of youth, excitement, and all their personal information being stolen and shared by Facebook for their entire lives anyway.
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Dec 29, 2018 01:25
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Pryor on Fire posted:Also we need a term for these humblebrag threads where 21 year olds try to get us to help them decide between a yacht or private plane because they are starting to annoy the poo poo out of me. i mean, this guy at least did the legwork to make it look like a plausible question. (yes, this is me doing damage control because i already effort-posted in here)
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Dec 29, 2018 06:26
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Pryor on Fire posted:Also we need a term for these humblebrag threads where 21 year olds try to get us to help them decide between a yacht or private plane because they are starting to annoy the poo poo out of me. Should be a permaban in my humble opinion
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Dec 29, 2018 21:07
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Pryor on Fire posted:Also we need a term for these humblebrag threads where 21 year olds try to get us to help them decide between a yacht or private plane because they are starting to annoy the poo poo out of me. 21 year olds are typically not qualified to make these kinds of decisions, so I understand the OP in creating this thread. To the OP: While risks are preferably taken early on in your life, you do not have to take all the risks that come your way. I would stick with NYC because a 10-person start-up is crazy high risk and I would also be worried about you having to deal with some amount of racism in your every day life, perhaps even at work. Work culture in Japan (leading to karoshi) also boggles my mind. Perhaps you won't have to deal with it at that particular job, but if the first job doesn't work out, maybe the second job will be worse. Finally, stock trading? You realize that you can't beat the market, right?
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Dec 30, 2018 02:29
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Congratulations on a wonderful problem to have, OP.  quote:that is very highly respected in it's field This part, if true, would settle the deal for me. You're starting out your career with an opportunity for a high-paying job at a respected company in your field, which will then influence the trajectory of the rest of your career. It's not that this particular job is better (though it may be - not a lot of info there), but that it's going to set the bar for everything else in the future. You will not stay at either company long-term, likely, so I'd pick the one that sets me up best for the next job. My vote is the NY job. That's a lot of money in NY and a good resume point, plus you have a lovely starting point for salary negotiations.  Things that would change this calculus to me: 1) family in Japan, 2) circumstances which would lead to you being eligible for permanent residence/citizenship, 3) possibly a sig-other waiting for you back in Tokyo from your internship. At that point, flip a coin? 
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Dec 30, 2018 04:35
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Sundae posted:Congratulations on a wonderful problem to have, OP. This is a very insightful comment and OP should follow the advice.
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Dec 30, 2018 05:31
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Sundae posted:Congratulations on a wonderful problem to have, OP. Yeah I feel real bad fretting about this, since I know it's two opportunities lots of other people would love to have - but that's not stopping my brain from going into full anxiety mode over it. Sundae posted:This part, if true, would settle the deal for me. The company has a reputation for being one of the hardest interviews to pass as a software developer (it's also a prop trading firm), which does a good job opening doors in the future. Once I did one internship there it suddenly became a lot easier to get interviews elsewhere. Sundae posted:2) circumstances which would lead to you being eligible for permanent residence/citizenship This is a factor. In Japan I'm possibly eligible for their high skilled workers Visa which would give me 5 years of work visa with PR available at the end if I want it. In NY I'd be on the NAFTA visa, which is fairly tenuous (have to effectively reapply for a work visa every time I reenter the country, program could theoretically be cancelled at any moment, have to leave the country as soon as a I leave a job). Similarly, if I managed to learn the language and adapt to the culture (big if) Japan is someplace I could see myself long term, whereas I don't think I'm going to want to be in NY at 60 (everyone over 30 at the place in NY seems to move out to NJ and spend 3 hours commuting every day).
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Dec 30, 2018 17:58
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I also think part of it is just me projecting out having to think about what I want from life. For the last 5 years I've had my goals in life effectively set for me - get my degree, get good internships, explore the cities I ended up in. Now I have to figure out what I actually want from life going forward - and I'm not sure what that is.
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Dec 30, 2018 18:27
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Immigration can be annoying. I was lucky to get my green card in 2017.mmm11105 posted:I also think part of it is just me projecting out having to think about what I want from life. For the last 5 years I've had my goals in life effectively set for me - get my degree, get good internships, explore the cities I ended up in. Now I have to figure out what I actually want from life going forward - and I'm not sure what that is. Sleep on this, but I have a feeling you won't get very far. Most people need to live life (sometimes the lovely parts as well) before they know what they want. In some instances people only figure out what they don't want. It sounds like NYC job will open many doors further down the road. For engineers, it would be the equivalent of having Apple/Google/NASA as their first job on their resume. So if after two years of NYC-job you figure out what you want, you can do that because NYC-job is more likely to have opened that door for you.
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Dec 30, 2018 18:45
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In six months, you are going to have a lovely weekend, after a lovely week at work, your partner is going to break up with and you are really going to need to hug your parents. A two hour flight for the weekend is going to do you a load of good, and the lifeline being close will make things better. Stay in NYC, especially when you're at this age with such a good opportunity ahead of you. It's not like you're settling.
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Dec 31, 2018 05:55
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Pryor on Fire posted:There is never a safe place to "weather a storm", don't plan your career around some fictional recession your parents keep warning you about, that's like the least important of all metrics to consider. This is normally my take, but these are both Financial Technology opportunities. I'll try to keep my opinions about the whole thing separate, but these companies are probably seeking his juicy goonbrain to write some software that is looking for the next market microtransaction version of "there's nothing in the rulebook that says a dog can't play basketball". Or maybe it's database management and I'm just talking out my rear end. Either way, considering a recession makes sense when you uproot your life to move to one of the financial megacities to work in finance.
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Dec 31, 2018 07:02
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NYC. Routines become grinds and novelty ends. If you choose Tokyo, you'll eventually find yourself thinking that you gave up beaucoup bucks and career progression for simply a different kind of normal. If you choose NYC, you'll eventually find yourself thinking that you traded experience and adventure for money. Except everything's better with money -- including vacations to Tokyo. And maybe Singapore on the way back. Because you can. life is a joke posted:these companies are probably seeking his juicy goonbrain to write some software that is looking for the next market microtransaction version of "there's nothing in the rulebook that says a dog can't play basketball" 'Technically allowed' is the best and funniest kind of allowed. Accretionist fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Dec 31, 2018 |
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Dec 31, 2018 07:58
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I would personally establish at the big name joint in NYC. If you have a big name joint on your resume and experience working in Japan you can certainly get a job in Tokyo in two years that pays better than your current offer if that ends up being very important to you. I started at a small firm and while it's been a really good experience and has led to a lot of personal and professional success, the next door is going to be one that I have to kick down. If I worked at a big firm in my field, those doors would be opened for me. On the other hand, I might not have been as successful as a large firm for other reasons...
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Dec 31, 2018 14:18
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To the OP, I had to make a similar choice at the start of my career, with slightly different considerations. Medicine is a bit backwards from the rest of the world, in that the more established, prestigious job will pay less (significantly so) than the smaller, less prestigious job. I took the lower paying, more prestigious job with the idea that it may open more opportunities for me down the road. I'm still debating whether I made the right choice, because I give up a lot on the financial side. In your situation, it sounds like the more prestigious job that may open up more doors in the future also pays more. It sounds like a no-brainer to me.
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Dec 31, 2018 16:45
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JFC, this is a no brainer. Go to New York. Companies with 10 people do not tend to last for long.
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Jan 2, 2019 05:47
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OP, I think you would be crazy to take the Tokyo job. The company doesn't sound like it's necessarily that stable and the compensation is very dependent on the bonus, so there's a good chance you would actually end up making $130k and then being out of a job with a defunct no-name Japanese company on your resume in which case you might find yourself only making normal amounts of money. I tell you what, take the NYC job and just pay me $50,000 a year to deliver you a bento every day for that unique Japanese experience. mystes fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Jan 2, 2019 |
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Jan 2, 2019 08:20
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My long comparison table of the two if anyone is interested
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Jan 2, 2019 17:31
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Did you make a 3 page spreadsheet to compare two job offers without figuring out the net pay after all income taxes for each one, or am I blind and not seeing it? Also what field are you in because I was assuming it was some kind of finance or programming but after seeing this sheet I am guessing it's not either of those and now I'm curious about what else pays so well.
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Jan 2, 2019 17:40
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Droo posted:Did you make a 3 page spreadsheet to compare two job offers without figuring out the net pay after all income taxes for each one, or am I blind and not seeing it? OP, look, I'm starting to suspect that you just want people to tell you to take the Tokyo job, so fine, go take the Tokyo job.
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Jan 2, 2019 17:44
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Droo posted:Did you make a 3 page spreadsheet to compare two job offers without figuring out the net pay after all income taxes for each one, or am I blind and not seeing it? I'm a software developer, both companies I'm looking at are in quantitative trading. Net is very difficult to figure out for these, as they are both bonus dependant, and both the US (NY) and Japanese tax codes are super complicated (a bunch of stuff in Japan's tax code is based on your previous income). Using rough online calculators, the tax rates are surprisingly similar, but the complicated U.S. tax code would probably let me claw more back in deductions. On a 250k income, I'd next around 150k in Japan and 155k in the U.S - though in the U.S I'd have access to a 401k that could save me an extra 8k or so by maxing the contribution.
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Jan 2, 2019 18:25
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Edit never mind forgot you are canadian
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Jan 2, 2019 18:32
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If you're going to make around the same amount at either job, then just do whichever you want. I don't think the internet can tell you which is a better choice.
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Jan 2, 2019 18:39
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