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Byolante posted:Having White get the title then drop it at MSG to Okada, or even having Okada win it in the near future at all would be hosed to poo poo. There are so many good wrestlers who could use a run, having White carry the belt to the Dome would cement him as the real deal. They already hosed one wrestler by feeding him to Okada in Naito. Time will tell but jobbing out Omega to Tana after a 'underwhelming' run where he didn't really get a chance to have a great run will probably kill his heat too. The last 10 years has been the tana and okada show, its time to move on and let someone else be a star. This but SANADA
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Jan 6, 2019 12:52
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I've seen people say that Naito as champion doesn't really work and he'll be the type of guy who goes down in the history books regardless of title wins but those guys are also always the ones people look back on and say "man, why the gently caress didn't they give him the belt?" Naito's won it once, sure, and it's nice that it wasn't a 0 defense reign, but that was a period when LIJ was firmly heel and he won it all kinds of dirty as a way to establish him and LIJ as a force on the roster. When someone is the most popular guy on the roster for 3 straight years you start to think "hey maybe he should win the big one again at some point because it's hells of unsatisfying otherwise"
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Jan 6, 2019 13:06
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TriffTshngo posted:I've seen people say that Naito as champion doesn't really work and he'll be the type of guy who goes down in the history books regardless of title wins but those guys are also always the ones people look back on and say "man, why the gently caress didn't they give him the belt?" Naito's won it once, sure, and it's nice that it wasn't a 0 defense reign, but that was a period when LIJ was firmly heel and he won it all kinds of dirty as a way to establish him and LIJ as a force on the roster. When someone is the most popular guy on the roster for 3 straight years you start to think "hey maybe he should win the big one again at some point because it's hells of unsatisfying otherwise" They also said he'd stay over without the belt and those Naito chants really petered out quickly this weekend. I won't be surprised if Taichi gets cheered over him in their match and Tanahashi trounces him in the Number sports mag popularity contest this year.
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Jan 6, 2019 13:26
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GEORGE W BUSHI posted:They also said he'd stay over without the belt and those Naito chants really petered out quickly this weekend. I won't be surprised if Taichi gets cheered over him in their match and Tanahashi trounces him in the Number sports mag popularity contest this year. His chants died in the arse about the same time they decided to not do the logical booking decision and have him finally win in the main event at the dome. It was a terrible decision thats even worse with hindsight. The reason why there are only 2 top guys is because they keep making GBS threads the bed the moment either Okada or Tanahashi isn't king poo poo. Omega's lackluster reign is a symptom of them being unwilling to push anybody else. He never got to have a good reign because they only let him have 2 defences then had him lay down for a past it dude getting a gold watch reign.
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Jan 6, 2019 13:35
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Tanahashi was easily one of the best wrestlers in the world of the past year. Having him win against Omega, who again is out of contract before the next show he could have defended at, was absolutely the only correct decision. Naito chants took a long time to die down and were still really loud months later. It's only a recent phenomen that they've died down. I'm sure Omega had a big say in at least two of his three defences and those two were the lackluster matches. Three defences and a six month reign is more than enough time to give a good account of yourself.
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Jan 6, 2019 13:40
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I agree that obviously njpw has been on the wrong track ever since they failed to put over Naito . I mean they can't even fill the Tokyo dome! Oh what? Business has been better every year since? Oh my! One thing I look forward too next year is that the need to fill the dome for two days will necessatate more marquee matches. Suddenly there is room for Suzuki, Kojima, and Nagata in singles matches and we can get a rumble! Heck they might even have to start bringing in outside stars again. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Jan 6, 2019 |
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Jan 6, 2019 16:06
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remusclaw posted:I agree that obviously njpw has been on the wrong track ever since they failed to put over Naito . I mean they can't even fill the Tokyo dome! Oh what? Business has been better every year since? Oh my! this is just the "WWE stocks have never been higher!!!" argument but for NJPW to dismiss any creative criticism, not to mention we were talking about Naito's personal popularity, not the popularity of the brand itself.
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Jan 6, 2019 16:13
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Oh I suppose so. Its not like they don't have the best loving wrestler in the world at young age. Or other stories to tell with the big belt that people like. Like the story that said best wrestler In the world is in the middle of an epic reign that will end amazingly followed up with a great story about how the old best is not done yet.
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Jan 6, 2019 16:18
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And none of that changes what we were specifically talking about? Naito losing his heat? I don't know why certain NJPW fans need to get super heated about defending the promotion from any and all criticism no matter how minor.
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Jan 6, 2019 16:25
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My argument isn't that NJPW hosed up not putting the belt on Naito at WK12. Continuing Okada's reign and cementing him as the greatest champion in company history was, I think, the right move, because as over as Naito is, Okada's still extremely well loved by the fans because of how loving good he is. I believe the same sort of long term story they had with Okada losing to Tana twice at the Dome before finally winning at WK10 is what's been happening with Naito since he got so huge, retroactively using WK8 as his version of Okada's WK7. If WK14 has Naito in another IC title match or something.... then yeah, they've hosed up.
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Jan 6, 2019 16:26
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I don't think Naito has significantly lost his heat but he has had a bit of a lame year. He feels like the "and also" of the top guys and needs a iwgp heavyweight run more then anyone up there. I think he needs it more then Jay White.
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Jan 6, 2019 16:28
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Sometimes people need to lose in wrestling for the sake of their story and others. Naito didn’t need to lose for his story to continue, but he did need to lose for other ones to continue. They clearly still value the guy, they wouldn’t put him over Jericho in the second main otherwise. But man, if your pet guy is Naito, that’s cool. My pet guy is Ibushi and I want to see him win the title too, and despite that I was still cool with Ospreay taking the Never belt from him. I like the overall product more than I like any one guy right now. Letting the story play out is not just a way to deflect like it is when WWE people say it, the stories NJPW under Gedo have told so far have all been worth the wait. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Jan 6, 2019 |
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Jan 6, 2019 16:30
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Gumball Gumption posted:I don't think Naito has significantly lost his heat but he has had a bit of a lame year. He feels like the "and also" of the top guys and needs a iwgp heavyweight run more then anyone up there. I think he needs it more then Jay White. Compare his WK12/NYD reactions to WK13/NYD reactions. remusclaw posted:Sometimes people need to lose in wrestling for the sake of their story and others. Naito didn’t need to lose for his story to continue, but he did need to lose for other ones to continue. They clearly still value the guy, they wouldn’t put him over Jericho in the second main otherwise. But man, if your pet guy is Naito, that’s cool. My pet guy is Ibushi and I want to see him win the title too, and despite that I was still cool with Ospreay taking the Never belt from him. I like the overall product more than I like any one guy right now. My pet guy is Taichi. I'm not just talking about just you but it's incredibly lame that some NJPW fans feel the need to shut down any and all creative gripes with "they (almost) sold out (a certain configuration) of the Dome  " to try and shut down the conversation as if business being up makes disliking creative choices wrong. It's no different than WWE fans posting the stock price to shut down criticism.
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Jan 6, 2019 16:34
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GEORGE W BUSHI posted:Compare his WK12/NYD reactions to WK13/NYD reactions. Oh he's totally lost some shine, I just think it would be no effort for him to get that back. One good program and actually having him in the top picture this year and you'll have the entire stadium screaming Naito again.
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Jan 6, 2019 16:40
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Business is good and I like the story telling like it is now. This is good for me as it means this sort of story telling will continue and I want to see that. Naito is not Goto. And poo poo, if I feel rough about anybody’s push it is Goto. I really like that guy when he’s motivated and he has little reason to be so at all anymore.
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Jan 6, 2019 16:40
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remusclaw posted:One thing I look forward too next year is that the need to fill the dome for two days will necessatate more marquee matches. Suddenly there is room for Suzuki, Kojima, and Nagata in singles matches and we can get a rumble! Heck they might even have to start bringing in outside stars again. I'm actually not sure how many more big singles matches we'll get, since I doubt they'll want to leave any of the big stars off of either show and that will probably mean a few tag matches. I can't see them expecting everyone to attend both nights to see all the matches. I've been trying to remix this year's event into two nights and it's been way more challenging than I thought to put together satisfying individual cards without leaving out any of the biggest names, making both shows too long, or having too many throw-away matches. Night 1: NEVER Openweight Six-Man Championship No. 1 Contender Gauntlet (pre-show) IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Championship: Kushida (c) vs. Taiji Ishimori RevPro British Heavyweight Championship: Tomohiro Ishii (c) vs. Zack Sabre Jr. IWGP Tag Team Championship: Guerrillas of Destiny (c) vs. EVIL & Sanada vs. The Young Bucks IWGP United States Championship: Cody (c) vs. Juice Robinson Kenny Omega & Kota Ibushi vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi & Will Ospreay Kazuchika Okada vs. Jay White IWGP Intercontinental Championship: Chris Jericho (c) vs. Tetsuya Naito Night 2: New Japan Rumble (pre-show) IWGP Jr. Tag Team Championship: Yoshinobu Kanemaru & El Desperado (c) vs. Roppongi 3K vs. BUSHI & Shingo Takagi Hiroko Goto, Tomohiro Ishii, & idk YOSHI-HASHI I guess vs. Yuji Nagata, Jeff Cobb, & Kushida NEVER Six-Man Championship: gauntlet winners vs. GoD & Ishimori Tetsuya Naito, EVIL, & Sanada vs. Minoru Suzuki, Zack Sabre Jr., & Taichi Kazuchika Okada & Rocky Romero vs. Jay White & Gedo NEVER Openweight Championship: Kota Ibushi (c) vs. Will Ospreay IWGP Heavyweight Championship: Kenny Omega (c) vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi I wanted to get that Goto/Ishii/Ospreay vs. Nagata/Cobb/Kushida match on night 2, but that would have complicated things higher up the card. I guess they might still have 8 somewhat rushed matches per card, but I wanted to give things more time. Alternatively they could just do a longer main card, as others have mentioned. Chinston Wurchill fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jan 6, 2019 |
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Jan 6, 2019 16:47
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If nothing else, two days of Wrestle Kingdom should make for a situation where they don’t need to short so many matches on time next year.
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Jan 6, 2019 16:55
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i am forever lolling at people saying they "ruined" naito broken mark brains
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Jan 6, 2019 18:15
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naito is ruined he is only the most popular wrestler in japan and beloved around the world they didn't give him the belt he's RUINED
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Jan 6, 2019 18:16
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Naito isn't any good until Keiji Mutoh comes back and leads a "This Guy" chant on Naito's behalf.
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Jan 6, 2019 18:19
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Looking forward to the "You Still Got It" chants for dead, lovely wrestler Naito at MSG.
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Jan 6, 2019 18:21
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If the goal of the promotion was ‘keep Naito over at all costs’ then they’ve failed. If the goal is ‘keep 3-5 guys over enough to grow the promotion’ they have succeeded.
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Jan 6, 2019 18:22
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Byolante posted:Having White get the title then drop it at MSG to Okada, or even having Okada win it in the near future at all would be hosed to poo poo. There are so many good wrestlers who could use a run, having White carry the belt to the Dome would cement him as the real deal. They already hosed one wrestler by feeding him to Okada in Naito. Time will tell but jobbing out Omega to Tana after a 'underwhelming' run where he didn't really get a chance to have a great run will probably kill his heat too. The last 10 years has been the tana and okada show, its time to move on and let someone else be a star. How did they gently caress Naito, Naito is just as popular as he has ever been. Chono didn't need the title, and neither does much less cool Chono.
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Jan 6, 2019 18:34
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^ I've been comparing Naito to Chono as the counterpoint with Okada as Mutoh for months now (down to them being rival Young Lions!), thank god finally someone else sees it I'm not sure Western fans are necessarily coming to conclusions with enough information here.
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Jan 6, 2019 18:35
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"Saying NJPW's paying fans are willing to come out in larger numbers and pay more money is the same thing as bringing up WWE's stocks" is the most loving peanut brained take in the world. I wanted Naito to win at Wrestle Kingdom 12 too, but in retrospect it was obviously not the right choice. Naito losing at the dome enabled incredible years with incredible stories from the other three guys in the big four, one of the best matches in company history at Dominion and an incredible Tokyo Dome main event the next year. He lost a match. People lose matches, sometimes, even when you really want them to win. It's not that big of a deal. It's been a fuckin' year already since it happened. Get over it.
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Jan 6, 2019 18:46
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I am actually rather stoked for LIJ to feud with Suzuki-Gun for the dozenth time though because EVIL & SANADA vs Zack & Suzuki will be the loving illest, even if Naito's being tasked with trying to wrestle a harder to carry opponent than Yoshihiko in the meantime.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:02
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Eh, he and Taichi work well together. Taichi trying to kill him with the microphone, only for the finish of their first match to end with Naito shattering the drat thing over Taichi's head ruled
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Jan 6, 2019 19:09
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Yeah Taichi vs. Naito was good the first time. Taichi will probably win this time.
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Jan 6, 2019 20:09
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https://twitter.com/KaraOnza/status/1081960901236805632 The God Emperor.
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Jan 6, 2019 20:55
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VJeff posted:"Saying NJPW's paying fans are willing to come out in larger numbers and pay more money is the same thing as bringing up WWE's stocks" is the most loving peanut brained take in the world. I wanted Naito to win at Wrestle Kingdom 12 too, but in retrospect it was obviously not the right choice. Naito losing at the dome enabled incredible years with incredible stories from the other three guys in the big four, one of the best matches in company history at Dominion and an incredible Tokyo Dome main event the next year.
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Jan 6, 2019 21:07
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Taichi has better matches with Naito than Suzuki does.
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Jan 6, 2019 21:57
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VJeff posted:"Saying NJPW's paying fans are willing to come out in larger numbers and pay more money is the same thing as bringing up WWE's stocks" is the most loving peanut brained take in the world. Yeah if you intentionally remove the context where I said NJPW superfans use it as a crutch to shut down any criticism of the booking like WWE fans use the stocks. Like if someone complained about a character getting killed off in Game of Thrones would you respond "actually the ratings are higher this season so gently caress you"?
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Jan 6, 2019 23:10
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forkboy84 posted:https://twitter.com/KaraOnza/status/1081960901236805632 So Taichi taking his pants off is like getting Naito to take his hat off?
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Jan 6, 2019 23:12
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GEORGE W BUSHI posted:Yeah if you intentionally remove the context where I said NJPW superfans use it as a crutch to shut down any criticism of the booking like WWE fans use the stocks. The difference is that good attendance suggests, on some level, fan approval of the booking, whereas the stock price suggests investor approval of the company's direction. So it's not really the same thing.
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Jan 6, 2019 23:17
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The Kimoa Kid posted:The difference is that good attendance suggests, on some level, fan approval of the booking, whereas the stock price suggests investor approval of the company's direction. So it's not really the same thing. Either way, you're using someone else's approval as a bludgeon to beat down someone else's criticism instead of engaging with it in good faith.
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Jan 6, 2019 23:21
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naito should go back to being the stardust genius if he wants to lick that iwgp hw gold again.
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Jan 6, 2019 23:24
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GEORGE W BUSHI posted:Either way, you're using someone else's approval as a bludgeon to beat down someone else's criticism instead of engaging with it in good faith.
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Jan 6, 2019 23:24
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GEORGE W BUSHI posted:Either way, you're using someone else's approval as a bludgeon to beat down someone else's criticism instead of engaging with it in good faith. Yeah, kind of, but I think you're blurring the line between "the booking is bad" and "I don't like the booking." Because it's absolutely fair for you to not like something, but if it's getting butts in seats, can you really say they're making a mistake?
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Jan 6, 2019 23:25
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cams posted:okay: your criticism is bad, the storytelling isn't bad because the guy you like didn't win I agree, that's not why Naito's booking sucks. I wasn't even criticising NJPW's booking when remusclaw came in with "it's popular so it's good" bullshit anyway. I was defending it from the guy saying Okada and Tana always being on top is bad but just happened to mention the obvious fact that Naito's popularity has waned. The Kimoa Kid posted:Yeah, kind of, but I think you're blurring the line between "the booking is bad" and "I don't like the booking." Because it's absolutely fair for you to not like something, but if it's getting butts in seats, can you really say they're making a mistake? A story can very easily be bad and still get butts in seats for a variety of reasons. Naito having a really bad year where he did nothing is easily cancelled out by the probably more popular at this point Tanahashi being handled really well and having a great story. I doubt those people came because they specifically approved of what Naito's been doing so it's still irrelevant. GEORGE W BUSHI fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jan 6, 2019 |
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Jan 6, 2019 23:30
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There is a press conference about New Beginning and Fantasticamania at 12pm JST btw (4 hours and 20 minutes from this post)
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Jan 6, 2019 23:40
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