(Thread IKs:
Nenonen)
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What should the presidential powers be in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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| UNLIMITED!!!! URKKI 2.0!!!!!! |
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3 | 23.08% |
| Sauli should be allowed to telecast to our homes whenever he pleases, but that should be the limit. |
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2 | 15.38% |
| He should be limited to writing mildly worded letters to HBL and other provincial newspapers. |
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2 | 15.38% |
| None. More power to Sanna & Katri & Maria & Li & Anna-Maja & Jenni! |
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2 | 15.38% |
| Unlimited, but every decision must be subject to a plebiscite. |
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0 | 0% |
| None, but the president's life must be video streamed 24 /7 for the duration of their term, with no censorship. |
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4 | 30.77% |
| Total: | 13 votes | ||
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Kokoomus and Lepomäki are lizards, and their goal certainly is to drive hyvinvointivaltio and liitot into the ground. That does not change the fact that all people who pay työttömyysvakuutusmaksu should be eligible for ansiosidonnainen.
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Jul 10, 2020 08:38
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doverhog posted:I guess I'm mostly interested in a discussion about the whole ansiosidonnainen järjestelmä rather than Kokoomus or Lepomäki so it was poorly framed, but that HS story just popped up so made the post. I'll bite: ansiosidonnainen is a terrible system that's advantageous only to the middle+ class, while leaving the most vulnerable and low-income employees with very little benefit. I also consider it a part of the reason many unions suck so much - they haven't had the need to be more proactive and visible as työttömyyskassa has been a sisäänheittotuote, thanks to people not knowing about the disconnect between the two. Ansiosidonnainen has also led to the rather bizarre attitude of (some) workers seeing unions as a sort of an unemployment paycheck once they're inevitably laid off, rather than as a force to prevent those layoffs from happening in the first place. I'm a big union supporter and consider them essential, but they've really hosed up major parts of their PR in the past decade or two. I agree the best solution would be UBI with the complete removal of ansiosidonnainen/työttömyysturva etc., but lol at that ever getting passed since the middle class doesn't really have to face the massive drawbacks of the current system. Another solution would be the dismantling of ansiosidonnainen with a flat työttömyysturva for everybody, but that passing is an even bigger lol, although from an ideological perspective has positives for both sides of the ideological spectrum: it would both benefit the low-income class relative to the current system and reward proper financial planning for the wealthier classes - gotta save more money for possible unemployment reasons if you want to live in an overexpensive, overlarge house for example. e: Pensions should be destroyed and replaced with UBI as well, they're just an extension of the injustices of ansiosidonnainen.
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Jul 10, 2020 08:42
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doverhog posted:Kokoomus and Lepomäki are lizards, and their goal certainly is to drive hyvinvointivaltio and liitot into the ground. Right, and as friend kuutamo up there elucidated, there are some mighty big reasons why this won't happen, period (because among other things the unions and SDP are against reform!) and giving the randroid-lepomäkis any breathing room is just a bad idea for everyone, because any reform our horrible parties can agree upon would be cuts for all.
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Jul 10, 2020 08:53
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I don't wanna dox myself but I know from IRL interactions with people that a lot of them do not know how the system works, at all. Why is your right to työttömyysturva gated behind civic education, an "intelligence" test? How could any leftist defend this? I see you now are talking about political realities, so I guess you agree with me. 
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Jul 10, 2020 08:55
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I'm a bit reluctant to say this because eeewww, but I think Lepomäki's idea is pretty good, and could also get passed once kok gains power again, if not even earlier. The problem with the idea is everything else that will follow - while Lepomäki says that this should not be a cost issue, they'll naturally claim high costs as a reason to start making it even more unjust in the future, probably via juustohöylä. But I don't think upholding the status quo can be justified by something like that, not on a moral level and especially not from a leftist PR point of view. It is a fundamentally unjust system, and will continue to be so even if this idea gets passed, only marginally less so. The left should be pretty hard at work right now figuring out a way of making an idea of their own from this. One way of doing it could be by introducing more progression to ansiosidonnainen but making it available for everyone. The overarching problem is the baffling inability of the unions and the vast majority of the left to justify their own existence to working class, even middle class people and to Finnish society overall - if the ideas of Lepomäki and the economic far right in general gain enough traction to dismantle the system to their desires, it is as a result of a complete failure by the left and the unions. A strange part of this is the political left skirting away from seemingly ever speaking out loud about certain fundamental truths of our society and the goals of corporations and the right, now matter how hard and plain EK etc. tell the working class to gently caress off and die. Sari Sairaanhoitaja and the rise of persut should've been massive wake up calls, but alas. Another problem is this weird affection to all kinds of ansio- or tulosidonnaisuus in the Finnish tukijärjestelmä, which incentivizes ylikulutus and ensures the increase of income disparities. Full communism now 
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Jul 10, 2020 10:16
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Liittos also oppose a minimum wage, joka muuten on Vasemmistoliiton esitys. Perhaps SDP and the AY mafia are actually etujärjestös for the "middle class" and don't give a poo poo about the actual working class.
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Jul 10, 2020 14:19
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Give ansiosidonnainen to everyone and make union membership mandatory.
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Jul 10, 2020 14:30
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doverhog posted:Liittos also oppose a minimum wage, joka muuten on Vasemmistoliiton esitys. Perhaps SDP and the AY mafia are actually etujärjestös for the "middle class" and don't give a poo poo about the actual working class. That's why Sari Sairaanhoitaja can vote for kok, after all!
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Jul 10, 2020 14:35
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Nenonen posted:Give ansiosidonnainen to everyone and make union membership mandatory. This, I can get behind. Also give workers a mandatory seat on the board, and mandate that CEO pay can be no more than some multiple of the lowest wage of a worker in the company. doverhog fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jul 10, 2020 |
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Jul 10, 2020 16:08
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Tämän vuoden alussahan Lepomäki ehdotti minimipalkkaa - ihan hyvää hyvyyttään toki - ja kun joku vasemmistoliiton tyyppi ehdotti 10-12e/h niin Lepomäki oli mieltä että kyllä se 10e/h on ihan liian korkea eikä sitten firmat palkkaa ihmisiä töihin.
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Jul 10, 2020 16:57
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Minimum wage was a Li Andersson proposal before Lepomäki said anything about it, IIRC it was a part of their vaaliohjelma. Btw, remember the Posti case? The new työehtosopimus they were being moved to has 8e/h as the starting wage.
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Jul 10, 2020 17:17
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Yeah Andersson has been talking about minimum wage for years now but the proposition was made by Lepomäki because at that time there was talk about minimum wage in multiple EU countries and Lepomäki hoped that minimum wage would do away with unions' wage negotiations. Essentially she wanted to diminish unions as well as make it possible for employers to pay less to people in low-skill jobs while disguising it as something which would help underpaid workers.
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Jul 10, 2020 17:24
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Onneksi työehtosopimus ei koske postia jakavia "kevytyrittäjiä*" jotka kaikki ihan vapaaehtoisesti saavat nettotuloja alle euron päivässä vastineeksi siitä vapaudesta, että voivat kieltäytyä töistä * Täysin naurettavaa että mediakin on ruvennut käyttämään tätä täysin harhaanjohtavaa termiä. Ainoa "kevyt" asia kevytyrittäjyydessä on työntekijän palkkapussi.
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Jul 10, 2020 17:32
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not a bot posted:Yeah Andersson has been talking about minimum wage for years now but the proposition was made by Lepomäki because at that time there was talk about minimum wage in multiple EU countries and Lepomäki hoped that minimum wage would do away with unions' wage negotiations. Essentially she wanted to diminish unions as well as make it possible for employers to pay less to people in low-skill jobs while disguising it as something which would help underpaid workers. and this is why we should be essentially openly hostile to anything Elina ever says, up to & including whether or not the sky is blue edit: i mean she is not dumb, unlike us here on this board
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Jul 10, 2020 20:36
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I begrudgingly respect Lepomäki for sticking to her guns and being consistent and transparent about the Randian nightmare she wishes to unleash upon this country.
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Jul 10, 2020 20:59
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doverhog posted:This, I can get behind. Also give workers a mandatory seat on the board, and mandate that CEO pay can be no more than some multiple of the lowest wage of a worker in the company.  Also jail the operators of every single platform and company slowdave posted:I begrudgingly respect Lepomäki for sticking to her guns and being consistent and transparent about the Randian nightmare she wishes to unleash upon this country. This is also why she isn't all that liked among the old guard of kok - they're more used to trying to hide their agenda, whereas Lepomäki is basically straight "gently caress the unions and the poor, 100%". I'd kinda want someone as brazen as her in Vasemmistoliitto to just go full eat the rich - Li is probably closest in a way, but as the party leader she really can't take that role. Who else is there - Kontula? Kyllönen?  Then again, I guess that line of thought would be unacceptable in the Finnish political discourse, whereas beating the poor is good and agreed upon.An actual question that I've been pondering: can the unions actually be salvaged, one way or another, to be a force for the actual working class? Currently they're pretty much just working for the middle class and their own benefit, aside from a few exceptions. Can they be redeemed by generational changes in their leadership or other massive changes, or do we need something else entirely to support those that the unions currently do pretty much nothing for - "kevytyrittäjät" etc.? Is the well too poisoned? SDP is too far gone and should just gently caress off to wither and die, but I guess the 55+ electorate will keep them afloat for a while.
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Jul 10, 2020 22:24
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Qtamo posted:The overarching problem is the baffling inability of the unions and the vast majority of the left to justify their own existence to working class, even middle class people and to Finnish society overall It's not that baffling when you consider the structure of labour unions. They're very compartmentalized, because it made a soviet-sponsored communist takeover much more difficult, but it also mean the leadership is pretty heavily insulated from the realities of current work life. If they're anything like their political wing, most of their time is devoted to infighting and office politics. I tell you, if you are a young and ambitious person looking for a sinecure and you're willing to stab some backs and kiss some boomer rear end, SDP is your place.
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Jul 10, 2020 23:02
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Kaikki argumentit jotka jollain tasolla ehdottelee ansiosidonnaisen kadottamista lentää omasta vinkkelistäni suoraan romukoppaan, sillä tosiasia on että ilman ansiosidonnaista tämä maa ei pyöri ja lukemattomat työpaikat haja-asutusalueella valuisivat ulkomaalaisten käsiin pelkästään sen takia että töitä ei vaan kannata tehdä. Varsinkin kun paikalliset toimijat näillä alueilla saavat aika lailla tehdä mitä lystäävät, mukaan lukien laittomasti polkea vakituisen työsuhteen ulkopuolella toimivia henkilöitä jotka kuitenkin ovat vakituisen työsuhteen mukaisessa työnohjauksessa ja vastuussa yritykselle ilman siitä saatavia etuja. Jos ansiosidonnaisen tuoma seikkailurumba korvattaisiin jollain mitättömällä rahamäärällä ja esim. eläkeputki poistettaisiin, lopputuloksena olisi se että nämä samat firmat polkisi edelleen ei-työntekijöitään ja nämä saisivat vielä vähemmän rahaa käteen ja jäisivät taloudelliseen loukkuun kun ei ole varaa muuttaa pois eikä taloa saa myytyä kenellekään. Ansiosidonnainen is what makes many, many jobs possible outside of Kehä III. If it was replaced by whatever pitiful 800 euros a month system the government dreamed up, it would have catastrophic consequences on society and completely loving ruin the Finnish economy. It'd cause the whole countryside to just wither away at an alarming pace, while most ordinary people would be unable to take advantage and end up stuck living in some hellpit without palveluita or really anything.
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Jul 10, 2020 23:41
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It's a rare day both Lepomäki and Tuomioja agree on something.
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Jul 11, 2020 12:45
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Qtamo posted:I'm a bit reluctant to say this because eeewww, but I think Lepomäki's idea is pretty good, and could also get passed once kok gains power again, if not even earlier. The problem with the idea is everything else that will follow - while Lepomäki says that this should not be a cost issue, they'll naturally claim high costs as a reason to start making it even more unjust in the future, probably via juustohöylä. Ding ding ding. Laitetaan kaikki ansiosidonnaisen piiriin ja sitten jokaisessa kokoomuksen poliittisessa ohjelmassa on siihen 5 prosentin "kestävyysvajeleikkaus" jota toistetaan kunnes riittävä kurjuuden aste on saavutettu.
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Jul 14, 2020 09:18
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Lepomäki may be full of messed up free market ideas, but at least she isn't a total broileri like 98% of politicians. If my memory serves, she was one of the only kok-people who opposed the sote monstrosity during the last government. She's alright for a lahtari. As for making lives miserable... is something like simplifying the ansiosidonnaisjärjestelmä really a prerequisite for it? It seems like AY-liike is just making GBS threads their pants at anything coming from the kokoomus camp. If we get a real proper right wing government, I would guess that this isn't the question that makes or breaks their fantasies of bullying poor people. Currently joining työttömyyskassa just a "gotcha" that too many people miss. Considering that like 5% of the ansiosidonnais money comes from these payments and that essentially everyone wants to participate, the current setup doesn't make much sense. SnowblindFatal fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 10:11
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Everyone wants to participate but no one wants to pay anything
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Jul 14, 2020 12:55
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Things are slowly but surely returning to normalcy, at least some sort of. The local markets at least turned on all the self help checkouts and not just leave every second one off. Will it last? Who knows, we'll probably know for sure when schools start.
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Jul 14, 2020 16:20
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Veikkaus reopening their one-armed thieves. 
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Jul 14, 2020 17:30
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Destroying people with poker machines actually owns and Veikkaus is doing God's work.
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Jul 15, 2020 08:10
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SnowblindFatal posted:Lepomäki may be full of messed up free market ideas, but at least she isn't a total broileri like 98% of politicians. If my memory serves, she was one of the only kok-people who opposed the sote monstrosity during the last government. She's alright for a lahtari. Where does this meme originate from? I've seen it elsewhere too, and at least I can understand the guys and gals who are thirsty about it, but how does "well yeah she's an insane right-wing nutjob, but" work?
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Jul 15, 2020 08:12
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It's honesty within the lahtari frame of thought. Old school Cock are corporalist, while Lepomäki is, or at least appears, to be honestly free market.
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Jul 15, 2020 09:00
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Kemper Boyd posted:Destroying people with poker machines actually owns and Veikkaus is doing God's work. No one but pensioners and retards use the machines, so god is not involved. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 15, 2020 09:01
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She is also a former investment banker https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-8876464 She is very fiscally conservative when it comes to her employers.
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Jul 15, 2020 10:00
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Rappaport posted:Where does this meme originate from? I've seen it elsewhere too, and at least I can understand the guys and gals who are thirsty about it, but how does "well yeah she's an insane right-wing nutjob, but" work? In politics and life in general you actually have to work with people you might disagree with. For cooperation it's better to focus on the things you agree on rather than refusing to work together with someone who doesn't 100% agree with whatever messed up headspace you happen to have. hth
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Jul 15, 2020 10:29
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doverhog posted:It's honesty within the lahtari frame of thought. Old school Cock are corporalist, while Lepomäki is, or at least appears, to be honestly free market. There is absolutely zero difference between them
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Jul 15, 2020 11:05
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SnowblindFatal posted:In politics and life in general you actually have to work with people you might disagree with. For cooperation it's better to focus on the things you agree on rather than refusing to work together with someone who doesn't 100% agree with whatever messed up headspace you happen to have. ah yes Elina Lepomäki, the Randian voice of reasonable debate and compromise
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Jul 15, 2020 11:58
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Kurnugia posted:There is absolutely zero difference between them Not quite. You're probably not wrong in that both schools of thought see organized labour as a regrettable inconvenience, but if Lepomäki was in charge you'd at least be able to buy Burana in Alepa. The fact that she's an actual libertarian rather than one of those types that scream "free market" only when it benefits entrenched businesses is why the Kok old guard hate her guts.
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Jul 15, 2020 13:32
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The Dream for the old guard Cock is "public-private partnerships" where the state pays and private businesses benefit. Leposide is opposed to these on ideological grounds. She's a nutcase but she is an ideological one.
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Jul 15, 2020 13:39
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SnowblindFatal posted:In politics and life in general you actually have to work with people you might disagree with. For cooperation it's better to focus on the things you agree on rather than refusing to work together with someone who doesn't 100% agree with whatever messed up headspace you happen to have. While I appreciate how polite you were in calling me certifiable, this isn't an argument for anything but that. Even Stalin sometimes had to work with Hitler, but that's not really a good light to shine on someone, is it? edit: I will try to make this less of a shitpost: By saying she's so agreeable, you are in effect giving support to her noxious ideas. Now, you might not find those ideas noxious and well, you do you, since we're all about agreeing here, but in a vacuum you might see how someone might take umbrage with saying a nutjob libertarian is agreeable and if we all just agreed to work together, we'd reach a reasonable compromise, yes? Rappaport fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Jul 15, 2020 |
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Jul 15, 2020 14:21
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Rappaport posted:While I appreciate how polite you were in calling me certifiable, this isn't an argument for anything but that. Even Stalin sometimes had to work with Hitler, but that's not really a good light to shine on someone, is it? The way I see it, the only way we have any hope whatsoever in building something good that lasts is if we do the best we can to separate ideas from the person who said it. Otherwise we will always have classes of people who have had bad opinions and are therefore invalid to raise out any new opinions. They will then feel marginalised without getting their voices heard and whenever that happens, stability gets worse. Now of course one needs to stay cautious when your ideological opponents suggest something, but automatically categorising all their initiatives as bad is self-harming and paranoid. And if you never listened to your ideological opponents, how will you find the holes in your own ideology? "Ahh yes it's the rabble who can't apply critical thinking to their own dogmas, unlike me, an enlightened and civilised person" And honestly. It does bring the taste of vomit to my mouth to praise Lepomäki of anything, but I really do believe that de-escalation of these ideological hate relationships that are so common these days is the path forward, even if it ultimately doesn't gain traction until we have some weird global proto civil war. Regardless of what happens, we all must assume a cooperative stance because what long-term alternative do we have? The best way to try to help someone else understand your views is to try to understand that person first. And I know this sounds like a bunch of Jesus bullshit and I suppose it is, but many times it feels like the more banal the wisdom, the more profound and important it is. And respects for all of you who actually reply earnestly to me. I often get the feeling I've been painted in quite the comical light because of my self-learned way of looking at things and D&D being somewhat humourless, but I do take into consideration all the proper replies I get. It's a bit hard to take "please stop posting" as anything but a sly attack on my freedom of speech when proper arguments have run out, however.  And when I post snarky, you can all know it's with love. 
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Jul 15, 2020 15:21
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Kurnugia posted:There is absolutely zero difference between them It would be easy if the world could be split neatly into left and right, but as proved by a Cock woman advocating for equal rights, while the AY resists, it cannot.
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Jul 15, 2020 17:15
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Kuka haluaa katsoa Päivi Räsästä tv:stä? Toistaiseksi eivät ainakaan poliisit tai valtakunnansyyttäjä. Vapaaehtoisia??? https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11448825
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Jul 15, 2020 20:41
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Nyt kun Helsingissä vasemmistoliiton kaupunginvaltuuston jäsen Suldaan Said Ahmedin perhettä uhkailtiin aseen kanssa ja homma meni piiritykseksi niin persujenkin täytyi keksiä omat kauhutarinansa. Pekka Kataja (summapersu pikkukylästä) ilmoitti että arabit kävi käsiksi kotiovella koska hän on persu. Arabit myös pöllivät 1400e minkä Kataja oli juuri nostanut matkailua varten. Halla-aho allekirjoitti tiedotteen missä kauhistellaan tätä poliittista väkivaltaa. Tutkinnassa kävi ilmi että kukaan ei ollut pöllinyt mitään ja lompakko ja rahat löytyi kotoa. Katajan persujen puolelehdelle kertomassa tarinassakin arabit muuttui jo tummaihoisiksi. Naapuri joka näki tilanteen sanoi ettei siellä mitään tummaihoisia/arabeja ollut. Huhtasaaren eu-parlamenttiavustaja pohtii: https://mobile.twitter.com/OlliKotro/status/1284431269401698304 not a bot fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Jul 18, 2020 |
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Jul 18, 2020 12:37
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| # ? Apr 16, 2024 08:36 |
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Pohdinnan taso oli niin hyvää että poistu jo. Mitä mainittiin?
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Jul 18, 2020 13:53
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