(Thread IKs:
Nenonen)
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What should the presidential powers be in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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| UNLIMITED!!!! URKKI 2.0!!!!!! |
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3 | 23.08% |
| Sauli should be allowed to telecast to our homes whenever he pleases, but that should be the limit. |
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2 | 15.38% |
| He should be limited to writing mildly worded letters to HBL and other provincial newspapers. |
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2 | 15.38% |
| None. More power to Sanna & Katri & Maria & Li & Anna-Maja & Jenni! |
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2 | 15.38% |
| Unlimited, but every decision must be subject to a plebiscite. |
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0 | 0% |
| None, but the president's life must be video streamed 24 /7 for the duration of their term, with no censorship. |
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4 | 30.77% |
| Total: | 13 votes | ||
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People are disappointed at LA and SDP for agreeing on Aktiivimalli 2.0 and the party MPs and various other functionaries are not taking it well. It's loving awesome, the whole thing about Marin was gonna change everything and we're getting Aktiivimalli 2.0 that's more punitive than the first one. Shouldn't have voted for Li Andersson.
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Sep 15, 2020 15:54
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| # ? Apr 18, 2024 07:40 |
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We all have to make hard choices in these troubled times. What is that, V and SDP are actively working to benefit the neo-liberal murder machine? Well, that's just the price we have to pay for being on the vanguard of progress!
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Sep 15, 2020 15:55
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It's the dumbest poo poo. I was willing to accept that there might not be much improvements what with corona loving everything up, but don't actively make things worse for god's sake. So who are you supposed to vote for if you don't believe that unemployment is the fault of those workshy poors who just lay on their couches drinking beer?
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Sep 15, 2020 16:07
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We have three communist parties, siitä sopii omansa valita!
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Sep 15, 2020 16:20
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Something like that was to be expected because of the employment goals in government programme. But if the left makes hard choices, so must CP and the Greens.
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Sep 15, 2020 18:15
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Budjettiriihen tiedotustilaisuus alkoi just https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11543871 e: ja se oli siinä, eipä kurjuutta kummempaa kuultu mutta ilmastosopuun on kuulemma päästy. Ohisalo näytti kireältä... Nenonen fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Sep 15, 2020 |
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Sep 15, 2020 18:34
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Kemper Boyd posted:It's loving awesome, the whole thing about Marin was gonna change everything and we're getting Aktiivimalli 2.0 that's more punitive than the first one. Shouldn't have voted for Li Andersson. No it isn't. I can understand the confusion though, since the Activity Model 1.0 only cut benefits by some degree, the new model has the withdrawal period if the requirements aren't met. However, here's the real change: in the old model you only met the quota if you managed to work for 18 hours in the 65 day period (or do some stupid employment seminars designed to (de)motivate you) – whereas in the new model you only need to file application papers to vacant jobs. So yeah, on one hand its the same stupid poo poo designed to annoy the unemployed, on the other hand the conditions for keeping your handouts are more easily met. SDP aren't stupid enough to look at Sipilä's model and think "you know, we could make this even worse". I suspect the change of guards at CP were the motor of this development. Good thing I'm stuck in university life for the time being. Hopefully we can get to the leisure-filled future economists like Keynes predicted we'd get instead of this paskaduuni future we're getting instead.
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Sep 15, 2020 21:51
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Eivät ne ole hand-outteja, Ronald Reagan, rauhoitus nyt
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Sep 15, 2020 22:47
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Who is going to review the hundreds of thousands of reported applications and how much will that cost? Sipilä wanted something like this, aktiivimalli 2, but abandoned it because it wasn't feasible. That said, tässä mallissa ei sentään tarvitse saada töitä täyttääkseen ehdot, riittää että hakee. doverhog fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Sep 15, 2020 |
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Sep 15, 2020 23:25
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doverhog posted:Who is going to review the hundreds of thousands of reported applications and how much will that cost? Sipilä wanted something like this, aktiivimalli 2, but abandoned it because it wasn't feasible. An extra 50mil apparently Hell let's just hire half of the unemployed as työkkäri virkailijat to pester the other half, unemployment halved just like that
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Sep 16, 2020 01:59
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HS posted:YKSILÖLLISESSÄ työnhaun mallissa, aktiivimalli kakkosessa, työttömän pitäisi hakea kuukaudessa 0–4 työpaikkaa asuinpaikasta ja sen työllisyystilanteesta riippuen. On tuo nyt jonkun verran lievempi kuin Sipilän ja Jari Lindströmin vanha aktiivimalli. Etenkin jos tuossa on alueellista harkintaa. Periaatteessa duunittomalla paikkakunnalla asuva voi vedota, että ei ole mitään sopivaa tarjolla mihin hakea (sehän on työnantajienkin kannalta paskaa jos kaikki maakunnan sossupummit pommittaa turhilla hakemuksilla kun yksi kioskimyyjän paikka avautuu). Varsinkin jos vertaa porvarien suunnittelemaan aktiivimalli kakkoseen: quote:Sipilän hallituksen aktiivimalli kakkosessa kolmen kuukauden aikana olisi pitänyt hakea 12 työpaikkaa kolmessa kuukaudessa, ja rikkeistä sanktiot olisivat olleet huomattavia. Ensimmäisestä rikkeestä seurauksena olisi ollut huomautus, toisesta rikkeestä 30 päivän karenssi, ja kolmannesta rikkeestä 60 päivän karenssi.
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Sep 16, 2020 03:57
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Kaksitoista jaettuna kolmella on neljä? Am I taking crazy pills?
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Sep 16, 2020 04:05
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Rappaport posted:Kaksitoista jaettuna kolmella on neljä? Am I taking crazy pills? Math, how does it work
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Sep 16, 2020 05:53
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doverhog posted:Who is going to review the hundreds of thousands of reported applications and how much will that cost? Sipilä wanted something like this, aktiivimalli 2, but abandoned it because it wasn't feasible. Sure it costs more to make sure the "undeserving poor" doesn't get a single cent more than deemed morally just, than just paying people in the first place and letting some cheat the system, but try selling that argument to the average person in the street. Bet you they prefer the system that costs more.
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Sep 16, 2020 07:13
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Työttömyys ei ole (ainakin) sitten 90-luvun laman ollut taloudellinen ongelma vaan moraalinen ongelma joka on naamioitu taloudelliseksi ongelmaksi. Sen vuoksi rahalla ei suoraan työllistetä ihmisiä tekemään jotain yleishyödyllistä valtion leipiin, eikä puhuta mistään työnantajiin kohdistuvista toimista, jotta ne palkkaisivat lisää työntekijöitä. Sehän palkitsisi ihmiset siitä että ovat päässeet työttömiksi elämään leveästi ja laiskasti. Ja sitä onko työpaikka arvokas ei mitata sen mukaan mitä työstä syntyy, vaan sen mukaan missä kohtaa yhteiskunnan organisaatiokarttaa työpaikka on. Öljy-yhtiön markkinointipäällikkö tai asetehtaan lobbari on ilman muuta arvokkaampi kuin kuntayhtymän vanhainkodissa työskentelevä lähihoitaja.
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Sep 16, 2020 07:39
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I guess I should say again that I think the current system is quite dumb, and surely does have a negative effect on työllisyys. The right direction to go is some kind of perustulo, not fiddling with this kind of dumb poo poo within the old system.
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Sep 16, 2020 08:46
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doverhog posted:I guess I should say again that I think the current system is quite dumb, and surely does have a negative effect on työllisyys. The right direction to go is some kind of perustulo, not fiddling with this kind of dumb poo poo within the old system. It's seriously not that latter thing. Just think about it for a second and imagine what Cocks do to our healthcare system the millisecond they get into power again. Perustulo is stillborn for a very large list of boring economics reasons too, but mostly that. The current system is dumb but this isn't really Aktiivimalli because it lets people off the hook if they literally can't follow the instructions, unlike the previous one which was pure gently caress the poor. This one seems more like something in there to assuage the neolibpiss types, while conveniently not pushing the aged rural folk directly into Arse party, and serving as a way to block a future dumber system.
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Sep 16, 2020 09:24
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Tempputyöllistäminen taitaa olla kuulunut poliittiseen lexiconiin jo hetken aikaa ja tää on samaa vanhaa. Työllisyyttä lisätään kustannusneutraalisti kun ekonomisti kuvittelee ne uudet työpaikat.
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Sep 16, 2020 10:17
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endlessmonotony posted:It's seriously not that latter thing. Just think about it for a second and imagine what Cocks do to our healthcare system the millisecond they get into power again. Perustulo is stillborn for a very large list of boring economics reasons too, but mostly that. I'm not thinking of it from the perspective of "oh how can we shield this system from future Cock attacks". Also too tired to get into how all the current sosiaaliturva is a patchwork piece of poo poo with lots of intelligence tests and counter intuitive details. One good thing about the new proposal is it apparently would replace the current työtarjous and karenssi system.
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Sep 16, 2020 10:25
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endlessmonotony posted:Perustulo is stillborn for a very large list of boring economics reasons too
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Sep 16, 2020 11:31
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Would be more difficult to kyykyttää köyhiä.
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Sep 16, 2020 11:48
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Herman Merman posted:So what are these, exactly? the visual basic macros in everybody excel spreadsheet stop working
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Sep 16, 2020 12:43
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Kemper Boyd posted:It's loving awesome, the whole thing about Marin was gonna change everything and we're getting Aktiivimalli 2.0 that's more punitive than the first one. How is it more punitive exactly? Still dumb and ineffective, sure.
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Sep 16, 2020 16:53
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slowdave posted:How is it more punitive exactly? Still dumb and ineffective, sure. Aktiivimalli 1.0 meant you got 30 euros less per month, this one means you have to ~somehow~ document to työkkäri each and every month that you applied for 4 jobs, or you starve to death. SDP, like friendship, is magic!
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Sep 16, 2020 17:06
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Rappaport posted:this one means you have to ~somehow~ document to työkkäri each and every month that you applied for 4 jobs, or you starve to death. SDP, like friendship, is magic! In this model you first get a warning if you fail to send 0-4 applications a month to jobs of your own choosing (as opposed to työkkäri telling you where to apply), then you get a 5-day karenssi, then a 10-day karenssi. While stupid and unnecessary, it at least doesn't sound inhuman to me. But whatevs.
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Sep 16, 2020 17:22
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slowdave posted:In this model you first get a warning if you fail to send 0-4 applications a month to jobs of your own choosing (as opposed to työkkäri telling you where to apply), then you get a 5-day karenssi, then a 10-day karenssi. While stupid and unnecessary, it at least doesn't sound inhuman to me. But whatevs. 5 or 10 days of karenssi means losing a quarter or half of one's monthly unemployment benefit, friend. I dunno how you gauge humanity per se, but for someone living on a couple hundred a month, that's a fairly hefty fine.
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Sep 16, 2020 18:35
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Rappaport posted:5 or 10 days of karenssi means losing a quarter or half of one's monthly unemployment benefit, friend. I dunno how you gauge humanity per se, but for someone living on a couple hundred a month, that's a fairly hefty fine. https://twitter.com/annakontula/status/1306216894324768768 quote:Nyt vihdoin tiedämme, mistä tarkalleen ottaen sovittiin: Sorry for big quote, but I think Kontula knows this poo poo and it's not like this is just some "lol SDP" thing when a leftist poverty researcher is excited about this. You have to look at things as a cockonaisuus.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:58
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Rappaport posted:5 or 10 days of karenssi means losing a quarter or half of one's monthly unemployment benefit, friend. I dunno how you gauge humanity per se, but for someone living on a couple hundred a month, that's a fairly hefty fine. I didn't mean to downplay the severity of it, just saying that it's a slight improvement from 15-90 days of karenssi off the bat - which I fully admit is a privileged position of me to take and isn't much of a condolence to people affected by this poo poo. slowdave fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Sep 16, 2020 |
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Sep 16, 2020 20:06
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Nenonen posted:Sorry for big quote, but I think Kontula knows this poo poo and it's not like this is just some "lol SDP" thing when a leftist poverty researcher is excited about this. You have to look at things as a cockonaisuus. Sure, but for someone who has been unemployed for several years, which statistically means they won't be employed any time soon anyway, this is simply bullying. Just because someone pulling a kansanedustaja's wage is hyping about what their party is doing while in hallitus doesn't make it magically okay. I am willing to accept that some people who have been shafted before will be shafted less, but on the aggregate, it looks like everyone not serving our capital masters will be shafted in a different way every month now. Yay?
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Sep 16, 2020 20:23
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Työttömyysturva was always vastikkeellinen, you are supposed to be seeking jobs and taking them if offered? In exchange you get that sweet, sweet liiton raha. This version APPARENTLY takes conditions into account so it's not quite as binary as Sipilä's malli. I'm sorry if you want perustulo but I doubt it's going to happen for a while...  BUT there is still toimeentulotuki and leipäjono!!!!!1111
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Sep 16, 2020 20:55
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You know it's a finnish government decision because nobody is happy
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Sep 16, 2020 20:57
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Nenonen posted:Työttömyysturva was always vastikkeellinen, you are supposed to be seeking jobs and taking them if offered? In exchange you get that sweet, sweet liiton raha. This version APPARENTLY takes conditions into account so it's not quite as binary as Sipilä's malli. You only get liiton raha for a year, friend. (Roughly) And of course it's currently "vastikkeellinen" in that one is meant to apply for jobs, but, I re-iterate, for someone who has been unemployed for N years, it's a fruitless task since no one is going to hire them. Now those people will have to turn in receipts each month (in a manner not yet elucidated) to TE-toimisto that I have applied for 4 jobs this month, daddy may I please eat again? I guess this is great if you have a korkeakoulututkinto since you can just apply to 4 random things from valtiolle.fi (a thing that will most likely be the go-to) where the requirement is "soveltuva korkeakoulututkinto" and don't have to look back. Unless the zombies at TE-toimisto, which the gummint is hiring more of!, get to "evaluate" whether or not one's applications were suitable enough to warrant eating that month. We don't know! And a real nice job pointing at leipäjono, sarcastically, and saying everything's alright because those exist. Not only is that bass-ackwards, but they're not really an option for someone who is unemployed, 50+ and lives somewhere around Sotkamo. But, again, means testing those dastardly scrounger poors is an inherent goodness, and Ronald Reagan smiles upon us from Heaven for doing so, yay?
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Sep 17, 2020 00:26
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Herman Merman posted:So what are these, exactly? Short version is that money isn't wealth and a perustulo without govt controls on essentials - especially housing - will just lead to an increase in the cost of living until it's more or less erased. This, combined with gig economy, will just lead to "now but shittier", unless you depend on govt benefits for disability or the health services, in which case it's "now but vastly shittier" because as much as you might not like designing systems to be cockproof it's still a necessity.
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Sep 17, 2020 04:52
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Moving from asumistuki to perustulo should incentivize people to not max out asumistuki, either by renting smaller or further away apartments. There is currently a fixed floor for rents due to asumistuki in the capital region and probably other larger cities.
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Sep 17, 2020 07:14
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Yup, in any medium-large city. Requires rent control to fix. Or the govt getting off their asses and creating housing without needing private investment. Adding perustulo to the mix without fixing the issue separately would only cause that, but for everything.
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Sep 17, 2020 07:26
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Right now there is no real incentive to offer lower rents or seek cheaper accomodation, because of asumistuki. If it's rolled into perustulo then people could decide to incentivize other aspects of their life, and landlords would no longer have a guaranteed rent. Whether this would lead to lowering rents is debatable, but renting is quite profitable so it's very likely. The government settings minimums for certain costs through direct funding of those expenses means there is a price floor. In the case of housing this subsidizes landlords and construction companies.
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Sep 17, 2020 12:12
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Having a roof over your head is kind of a high priority though
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Sep 17, 2020 12:56
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It is definitely great going back into studying and having 65% of your monthly income going into rent. Now I konda wish instead of switching careers I had taken an offered job monitoring Finnish-language social media in Berlin because what the Christ. This podunk town has no business being this expensive to live in.
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Sep 17, 2020 14:21
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I enjoy being a student and getting enough money to pay rent, and that's it. Want to buy food? Here's how big of a loan you can get from the bank. Enjoy paying it back once you're employed, or even if you're not. I'd support perustulo on the basis that it would significantly reduce the amount of idiotic and neverending back and forth with Kela that naturally comes from receiving any kind of support and how working for one summer requires eleventeen additional documents before you're allowed to receive asumistuki again. Hell, maybe it'd even put an end to studying just to be unemployed and poor since you could risk it and try self-employment of some type with a reduced risk of going entirely broke with no recourse. I enjoyed the privilege of being on toimeentulotuki over the summer and I literally felt like I was rich because of how much more money I had for food and essentials per month, and none of it was actually the bank's. Kind of a dumb system if I'm being honest.
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Sep 17, 2020 17:45
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| # ? Apr 18, 2024 07:40 |
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Ruflux posted:I enjoy being a student and getting enough money to pay rent, and that's it. Want to buy food? Here's how big of a loan you can get from the bank. Enjoy paying it back once you're employed, or even if you're not. I'd support perustulo on the basis that it would significantly reduce the amount of idiotic and neverending back and forth with Kela that naturally comes from receiving any kind of support and how working for one summer requires eleventeen additional documents before you're allowed to receive asumistuki again. Hell, maybe it'd even put an end to studying just to be unemployed and poor since you could risk it and try self-employment of some type with a reduced risk of going entirely broke with no recourse. The current system is... dumb as all hell. Perustulo system would however not fix all your problems. Well, it would, in that you would starve to death for daring to have problems, but not in any other way.
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Sep 17, 2020 17:53
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